Farewell to the Village Idiot

[Pi Mu Rho]

Funny, I don't recall seeing that anywhere.

 

[CptStern]

Absinthe is american

 

[No Limit]

Funny, I don't recall seeing that anywhere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7299037.stm

Absinthe is american

No shit? I could have sworn he was from across the pond.

 

[Solaris]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7299037.stm



No shit? I could have sworn he was from across the pond.

That really has little to do with the bombing.
More planning issues; however there have been quite a few incidents over the last few years where these highly reputable Mosques have had extremist preachers.

I do think, that any Mosque that hosts preachers who call for the death of homosexuals or terrorist acts against British people should be shut down. It's not simply an issue of a few extremists killing some people and everyone over reacting.

A terrifying proportion of British Muslims do not believe in democratic values.

A recent poll showed that about a third of young British Muslims want to live under sharia law and believe that apostates should be killed for leaving the faith. These are British Muslims. Sixty-eight percent of British Muslims feel that their neighbors who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted, and seventy-eight percent think that the Danish cartoonists should be brought to justice. These people don’t have a clue about what constitutes a civil society. Reports of this kind coming out of the Muslim communities living in the West should worry us, before anything else about religion worries us.

Source

 

[No Limit]

That really has little to do with the bombing.
More planning issues; however there have been quite a few incidents over the last few years where these highly reputable Mosques have had extremist preachers.

I do think, that any Mosque that hosts preachers who call for the death of homosexuals or terrorist acts against British people should be shut down. It's not simply an issue of a few extremists killing some people and everyone over reacting.

A terrifying proportion of British Muslims do not believe in democratic values.


Source

Right, limit their freedom of religion because you don't like what they preach. For some reason if you tried to do that to the christian churches in your area it wouldn't work out so well for you. What evidance do you have that the people behind this "megamosque" preached terrorist attacks against the UK? We already discussed the poll you posted many times. If you asked the same question of christians do you honestly think that most people would not answer the same way? Speaking of which why hasn't the same poll done for christians?

 

[Solaris]

Right, limit their freedom of religion because you don't like what they preach. For some reason if you tried to do that to the christian churches in your area it wouldn't work out so well for you. What evidance do you have that the people behind this "megamosque" preached terrorist attacks against the UK? We already discussed the poll you posted many times. If you asked the same question of christians do you honestly think that most people would not answer the same way? Speaking of which why hasn't the same poll done for christians?

Yes, the incitement to murder for ethnic, sexuality or religious reasons is a crime and institutions that call for it should be shut down.

I don't know why you're bringing Christians into this, right now it's Muslims who try and stop the free press of the media, murder film makers, blow up buses, force women to wear the hijjab and set up arrange marriages.

 

[No Limit]

Yes, the incitement to murder for ethnic, sexuality or religious reasons is a crime and institutions that call for it should be shut down.

I don't know why you're bringing Christians into this, right now it's Muslims who try and stop the free press of the media, murder film makers, blow up buses, force women to wear the hijjab and set up arrange marriages.

I bring christians in to this because there are a lot more crazy christians than there are muslims, but nobody seems to be bothered by that in the UK. I made the point above that because a few assholes blew up a few buses in your country you guys are going bat shit crazy, I think you just helped me prove my point. In a democracy you will have people that say some crazy things, as soon as you try to limit that free speech you don't live in a democracy any more. That doesn't mean they should get up there and preach terrorism. But until you show me proof that there are people in the bullpit of a mosque preaching terrorism I'm not buying it; I think it's more bullshit propogenda from your media.

We have people in my country that think there is no seperation of church and state. That it's okay to protest the funerals of dead soldiers because "god hates fags". And many other loons that try to undermine our democracy. But that's part of living in a democracy, everyone should be used to it by now.

And you tell me how many of the following incidents occured because of muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[Sulkdodds]

Hold on there, Christianity is not really very radical in the UK. And if it is, not in great numbers. Whereas Solaris is talking about a third of British Muslims - a huge amount, if those statistics are true.

This is obviously going to be the case. Christianity is long established and has liberalised as the state has, by now becoming quite genteel in most cases.

This is not to say there have not been significant amounts of what is occasionally but irritatingly termed 'Islamophobia' here (legal also etc).

 

[No Limit]

Hold on there, Christianity is not really very radical in the UK. And if it is, not in great numbers. Whereas Solaris is talking about a third of British Muslims - a huge amount, if those statistics are true.

This is obviously going to be the case. Christianity is long established and has liberalised as the state has, by now becoming quite genteel in most cases.

This is not to say there have not been significant amounts of what is occasionally but irritatingly termed 'Islamophobia' here (legal also etc).

But why hasn't this same poll been done with christians? You only have part of a puzzle here, that 40% of the 2% muslim minority would support sharia law. Until you find out how christians in the UK feel about biblical law this statistic is kind of useless. Lets assume that 50% of the UK is christian (not sure what it is and too lazy to look it up). Even if only 5% of that 50% believed that god's word should be law that would still be a much bigger problem than the 40% of the 2% minority believing similar. No? And everything I have seen in the US that number would be much higher than 5% here, and I think 5% is more than realistic even in the UK. But the point of this poll is not to educate, it's to demonize muslims; so there will never be a similar poll done with christians which again goes back to my point about the media there.

 

[Absinthe]

yeah, I'm sure the UK is much better. You guys seem to have freaked out just as much as we did after some of your buses got bombed. All of the sudden muslim mosques should be banned. And who exactly is feeding this bs in your country if it's not the media?

Because I'm British.

So many Americans have the mental faculties and resources to critically analyze information propagated by media and government officials, but are all too willing to settle for slogans and distorting information to fit inside their shallow understanding of politics and how it effects them. The Bush administration was hardly doing anybody any favors in '04, but the man won with the popular vote. Supposed "fiscal conservatives" vote Republican because that's supposed to be part of the brand, despite the fact this administration was flushing us further down the economic tubes. There's just too little hunger for real answers and accountability from politicians because people aren't interested in difficult debates and discussions. They're unhealthily concerned about how a candidate smiles, or how they "perform" in debates (never mind the actual substance of the words exchanged). It's treated like a game spectacle.

I gave a pass on Bush's first win, but the second time around people should have known he was a rolling ball of failure. And yet he was elected any way. His fearmongering and Fox News can only take so much blame. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to see past the spin, but there's rooting disinterest in politics on a meaningful level. People get manipulated because they're essentially allowing themselves to.

 

[No Limit]

Because I'm British.

I don't know dude, something about you screams British. Maybe it's the smell

But my point stands, I don't think it's just the americans that are subject to swallowing bullshit.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm not trying to say it isn't a problem in other nations as well. But it seems exceptionally the case in the United States, and it's common to both Democrats and Republicans a like. For instance, I have no doubt that part of Obama's victory rested on such ignorance, although "hope for change" is far less insidious than the quasi-racist attitudes his opponent was stirring up.

Perhaps I'm coming off as alarmist. But as the most influential and powerful nation on Earth, I think it's doubly important that Americans are taken to task on this matter. Although the problem is no doubt spurred by our media's constant barrage of information overload (and their contemptible fixation on petty issues). I'm not expecting people to have a concrete grasp on every article in the constitution or their state legislature. But an effort to understand some of the most basic ramifications of their votes on issues would be nice.

 

[Raziaar]

I bring christians in to this because there are a lot more crazy christians than there are muslims, but nobody seems to be bothered by that in the UK.

More crazy christians than muslims? As far as I know, there are nowhere near as many militant christian radical groups that bomb and kill as much as there are radical islamic terror cells throughout the world.

This isn't me attacking muslims or stereotyping them. This is just a fact that there are a shitload of islamic radicals out there causing strife in the world through means of violence. Christians may have it's large share of crazies... but they're more crazy in the sense of believing in young earth creationism or holed up on their properties with shitloads of guns waiting for judgement day and stuff... not blowing up or otherwise killing civilians and military forces.

 

[No Limit]

It's not that I disagree with you that this problem is a lot bigger in the US than in other nations. But my point is that this is the purely the fault of the media, and not the people. If Canada's press evolved over a period of a few decades to what our press is I'm sure just as many people would face this problem up there. I used the muslim thing as an example of it happening in the UK. Another example might be of the anti-palestinian sentiment in Israeli media affecting their people. Just as the government owned media in middle eastern countries brainwashes those people.

I think with the way the internet has evolved this will soon change throughout the entire world, at least I hope so.

 

[No Limit]

More crazy christians than muslims? As far as I know, there are nowhere near as many militant christian radical groups that bomb and kill as much as there are radical islamic terror cells throughout the world.

This isn't me attacking muslims or stereotyping them. This is just a fact that there are a shitload of islamic radicals out there causing strife in the world through means of violence. Christians may have it's large share of crazies... but they're more crazy in the sense of believing in young earth creationism or holed up on their properties with shitloads of guns waiting for judgement day and stuff... not blowing up or otherwise killing civilians and military forces.

There are plenty of christians that are willing to blow up an abortion clinic because they don't like the abortion laws. The reason there aren't as many militant groups in the christian religions (and this is just my opinion) is because they have the majority in our society. But just because they aren't militant doesn't mean they aren't just as dangerous. as far as I know in the UK gays still can't get married (obivously also here) and in this country I still can't buy alcohol on Sundays before noon. That's a lot more dangerous than a few whackos blowing stuff up because it directly undermines our democracy and our freedoms. Not that I'm all that alarmed about it, these idiots will fade out of our society as time passes, no point in agitating them any further.

 

[CptStern]

It's not that I disagree with you that this problem is a lot bigger in the US than in other nations. But my point is that this is the purely the fault of the media, and not the people. If Canada's press evolved over a period of a few decades to what our press is I'm sure just as many people would face this problem up there. .

didnt reagan de-regulate US media? I seem to recall something about government regulating media so that there were equal viewpoints were presented


ah here it is:

1987: "Fairness Doctrine" eliminated. At its founding the FCC viewed the stations to which it granted licenses as "public trustee" ? and required that they made every reasonable attempt to cover contrasting points of views. The Commission also required that stations perform public service in reporting on crucial issues in their communities. Soon after he became FCC Chairman under President Reagan, Michael Fowler stated his desire to do away with the Fairness Doctrine.

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fairnessdoct/fairnessdoct.htm

deregulation pretty much opened the doors to partisan media disguised as "news"

 

[cleverendeavouR]

Bush was voted in because you always keep the same president in a war time. It's just how it goes.

 

[jet_porkins]

There are plenty of christians that are willing to blow up an abortion clinic because they don't like the abortion laws. The reason there aren't as many militant groups in the christian religions (and this is just my opinion) is because they have the majority in our society.

That, or their faith tells them not to form militant groups.

 

[No Limit]

That, or their faith tells them not to form militant groups.

Right, because that's stopped them before. Just like the Quran prohibits killing of innocent people.

There are religious fundamentalists we are talking about, they believe what's convenient for them.

 

[CptStern]

there's plenty of militant christians willing to take drastic measures to get their point across. you're just not looking hard enough if you think that


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=abortion+clinic+bombings&meta=

 

[Laivasse]

There are indeed plenty of militant Christians, but you'd have to search a long way to find them in the UK, which is largely secular.

Convoluted musings on 'are Brits more gullible than Yanks' imminent...

The situation with muslims and islamophobia in the UK is a complex one, because the lurking muslim bogeyman is a problem that's both real and cultivated by the media, to differing degrees. On the one hand you have the stats mentioned above, the ill-conceived Religious Hatred bill, and the general weak-kneed stance that the UK takes when it comes to balancing issues of free speech vs. religious sensitivity; at the same time you've got endless paranoid rhetoric from government, innocent men executed with impunity for being olive-skinned, and the inexorable mission-creep of unnecessary anti-terror legislation which makes British muslims feel justifiably ill at ease (there's also latent racism in many areas, which goes without saying).

In the same way, I believe the opposers of the 'megamosque' were probably a more or less acceptable mix of people genuinely concerned about local planning issues, people who were concerned about extremism in British mosques (see Dispatches' Undercover Mosque), and angry grandmas shaking their copy of the Daily Mail while screeching 'THIS IS STILL A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY!!' But make no mistake, there was no 'banning of mosques' in response to the Iraq War, or anything close...

As for the media gullibility of the British people in comparison to Americans... well that's a tricky question which invites lots of funtime generalisations. I think for whatever reason we're not as automatically inclined to be hysterical. The Iraq War demo in London exhibited that a huge number of people weren't prepared to resort to xenophobia as an opiate for their sense of outrage after 9/11 (compare to the proportion of US troops early on in Iraq who thought they were on a vengeance mission for 9/11). I was actually very impressed with the reaction of the British in the immediate aftermath to the Tube bombings too - the general attitude was one of solidarity, impassiveness and 'we've seen this shit before, big deal'.

At the same time I think the British are unforgivably passive, to a degree which can easily result in a mob/herd mentality of a kind that rivals what's seen in the US. I personally felt that while people's instinctive response to the 7/7 bombings was level-headed and proportionate, through our crippling want of ideological passion we allowed that sentiment to be corrupted, by rhetoric and sensationalist media, into one of absolute paranoia. 'WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE WHO GET BLOWN UP!' eventually became a common litany, a particularly moronic bit of rhetoric since those rights are already protected by the law against explosive murder. Nevertheless, the fantasy of 'absolute safety' has managed to bewitch most of the populace, from what I can see. It's a hole in the UK's critical discourse which has allowed and continues to allow the many abuses of the New Labour administration to go unprotested.

SO yeah... could a man like Bush get elected in Britain? Probably not IMO - at least not someone THAT obviously shambolic - due to the absence of religious momentum and the anti-intellectualism which afflicts parts of the US. But in the unlikely event of a man like him having been elected in Britain, could he get reelected? Armed with a PR machine like Blair had at his disposal, and considering our political cowardice, I wouldn't bet against it at all. Also, I find it hard to envisage how a man like Obama could ascend to power within the British sociopolitical framework. Then again I never thought he'd get elected in America either - shows what I know, but an abysmal campaign from McCain certainly helped.

 

[TwwIX]

There goes another thread down the shitter. Much like this country.

 

[No Limit]

There goes another thread down the shitter. Much like this country.

How did this go down the shitter? This is actually a pretty damn good discussion IMO.

 

[No Limit]

didnt reagan de-regulate US media? I seem to recall something about government regulating media so that there were equal viewpoints were presented


ah here it is:



http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fairnessdoct/fairnessdoct.htm

deregulation pretty much opened the doors to partisan media disguised as "news"

I'm not sure that it's only covering 2 sides to each story, actually in my opinion that's been part of the problem (giving equal covereage to people that think global warming is a big scam for example).

I think the problem is, and this might have actually been part of the fairness docrine that you mentioned (Im not sure), that we completely deregulated the media industry. We removed limits on how much media can be owned by one entity and set up total corporate control of the market. I don't think it's an accident that every single network sounds exactly the same. I'm not sure how much exposure you've had to american media but it doesn't matter if you tune in to the chanel 4 eyewitness news in the morning or channel 7; you will hear the exact same stories. It's the same with national news. So it seems that a select few people have total control over what is reported on.

Most people I know watch the news. On my lunch break most of the company goes in to break room where they have the news on. The exception to this that I've seen is young people most of whom I've knows couldn't care less about the world around them (I wouldnt be shocked if this was the case for most countries). So I don't think it's a problem with americans not wanting to get educated on current events, it's a problem with the education the media is providing.

Most people will start to become smarter with the internet becoming our primary news source where you have independent media. Obviously the internet won't take over for a long while but you can already see the influance independent blogs have on the national media and the stories they cover. This change can't come soon enough.

 

[Raziaar]

there's plenty of militant christians willing to take drastic measures to get their point across. you're just not looking hard enough if you think that


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=abortion+clinic+bombings&meta=

7 people killed in the united states as a result of abortion violence. 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings.

Compared to how much widespread destruction of Islamic extremism?

I'm not defending Christian extremists... I'm just saying comparing the scale of abortion related extremism violence to Islamic extremism violence is a little silly.

 

[Raziaar]

no, I called them coloured ..would you have prefered Mouli? how about Jigaboo? spook? chester chitlin?


oh and didnt you for bush?

Yes, I voted for bush. No, I don't still support bush and have not for a couple years.

EDIT: Bah, double post, sorry. Serves me right for going back in the thread and responding without checking if there were anymore replies at the end.

 

[CptStern]

Yes, I voted for bush.

for shame

No, I don't still support bush and have not for a couple years.

yes I remember your "conversion". I like to think [strike]I[/strike] hl2.net had something to do with it

7 people killed in the united states as a result of abortion violence. 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings.

now do the same with muslim extremism in the united states ..and ..go

Compared to how much widespread destruction of Islamic extremism?

I'm not defending Christian extremists... I'm just saying comparing the scale of abortion related extremism violence to Islamic extremism violence is a little silly.

who's comparing? certainly not I. you're comparing, I just refuted the idea that there is no christian militanism in the US

 

[G(ordon)-man]

40 troops is worth visa freedom, no?

He did. But it takes force on 2010.

 

[Absinthe]

It's not that I disagree with you that this problem is a lot bigger in the US than in other nations. But my point is that this is the purely the fault of the media, and not the people. If Canada's press evolved over a period of a few decades to what our press is I'm sure just as many people would face this problem up there. I used the muslim thing as an example of it happening in the UK. Another example might be of the anti-palestinian sentiment in Israeli media affecting their people. Just as the government owned media in middle eastern countries brainwashes those people.

I think with the way the internet has evolved this will soon change throughout the entire world, at least I hope so.

The media has certainly played a part in grooming the way people go about politics, but so long as there are other avenues and methods for procuring information to form a legitimate opinion, I don't think all blame can be placed on them. The internet has a lot of potential for fixing the problem, but there's plenty of reason to believe that people would sooner seek out sources that already play to their established opinions. It's no secret that Fox News has a conservative bias and regularly spins the issues to favor certain people over others, and I have no doubt that many of its viewers are aware of this criticism. And yet it's still heavily watched, or worse yet relied on as a sole source for news. I can only imagine this is because of the comfort afforded by preaching to the choir. They listen to Rush Limbaugh because they want to hear an attack dog tear into red meat. We basically have politics unfiltered on C-Span, but it lacks the entertainment that other networks provide. If a policy can't be summed up with a slogan, a quip, or some other sound byte, most people lose interest. =\

The media is supposed to be an informant and not a substitute for actual thought. I think they'd just as soon change their ways if people put their foot down and demanded improvement. But such a demand is generally only paid lip service to. Unlike some other areas of the world, we have every ability to force a change, and it's not like we're without hope. If an issue becomes important enough it enters public consciousness, just like our atrocious deficit did in the last few decades.

The media is in need of improvement. But it's also going to require more people to act like responsible voters, and we can't allow our casual ignorance to be an excuse. And that will require serious and admittedly occasionally dull discussions about our national interests.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

As much as an idiot he is, I bet he has a good sense of humor.

I dunno, part of me is gonna miss ol' Bush.

Also, No Limit, I think that you should know that (at least, compared to America) there are very few christian fundamentalists in this country.

 

[Kase]

if anything he kicked the absolute **** out of Al Quida and Iraq

 

[Laivasse]

Good thing he kicked the shit out of Iraq, I heard those bastard ragheads could attack us within 45 minutes.

 

[Gunner]

Someone should come out with a "best of" and print it on dvd, I'd buy that shit.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Good thing he kicked the shit out of Iraq, I heard those bastard ragheads could attack us within 45 minutes.

A good thing too that he completely weakened Islamic radicalism. If he hadn't acted, major European cities like Madrid and London might have been bombed.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

/throws shoe

 

[ThunderDawg]

I think in 50years time people will look back and see him as the president who liberated two enslaved countries and brought democracy to the middle east.

The average intelligence of the USA is about fourth grade level. I can only imagine those in the lowest percentile agreeing with you.

My uni's politics society is having a inauguration party in association with the American Embassy, I'll cross the lines of the socialist picketing the event and attend. If somebody declares a toast of farewell and appreciation to Bush, I'll raise my glass.

I toast his departure too. May the the Water Board his ass on the way out.

 

[elrasho]

I have no idea how America could sit back and let this dunce be in charge for so long.... man I would be embarassed to say he was out President. What a joke

Heres some more marvelous represesntaions of the US of A:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gv91y/Outtakes_US_Presidents/

 

[nurizeko]

A good thing too that he completely weakened Islamic radicalism. If he hadn't acted, major European cities like Madrid and London might have been bombed.

Not to mention that if it wasn't for his prudent action people might have become fearful and lost faith in liberty and democracy and embraced proto-authoritarian leaders who pushed through legislation that weakens freedoms and rights across the free world.

And politicians may have started using the threat of terrorism the way throwing around the name Nazi used to work.