Fiercest day yet of Hezbollah shelling Israeli targets

[CptStern]

Israeli police counted 215 rockets slamming into northern Israel, the highest single-day tally of the three-week conflict.

Also, a rocket landed in the Palestinian-controlled West Bank between Faqua and Jelaboun, police said, the farthest south yet of such an attack [whoopsie, TK ftl ]

...a man riding his bicycle was killed

"oh what a lovely lovely day to go bike riding.. tralalalala WHAM"


meanwhile:

One of a series of [israeli] air raids struck the village of Al Jamaliyeh, less than a mile from the hospital, AP reported. A missile hit the house of the village's mayor, Hussein Jamaleddin, instantly killing his son, brother, and five other relatives, according to AP.

A family of seven -- a mother, father and their five children -- were killed in another air raid on an area near Al Jamaliyeh, witnesses told AP. A van driver was also killed when another missile struck nearby, AP reported.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/02/mideast.main/index.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=81673182&p=8y673484&n=81673562

 

[Bait]

At least we can all be convinced now that Israel's methods are working.

Case closed.

Who wants to buy lunch?

 

[CptStern]

I'll pick up the tab ..but can we make it a liquid lunch, I have a meeting shortly and dont have a lot of time

 

[Icarusintel]

Hezbollah rockets going farther is bad news. Especially if they're being supplied by either Syria or Iran. All Israel needs is proof of arms shipments to Hezbollah by either country (and yes, they do supply Hezbollah with weaponry) to widen this conflict.

 

[Bait]

Syria mentioned that should Israel push deep into Lebanon, it would respond with its own army. What happens after that can be nothing but bad.

This situation is headed for 3 brick walls at a bajillion miles per hour. But too many people have their heads up their asses to see the threat.

 

[CptStern]

Hezbollah rockets going farther is bad news. Especially if they're being supplied by either Syria or Iran. All Israel needs is proof of arms shipments to Hezbollah by either country (and yes, they do supply Hezbollah with weaponry) to widen this conflict.

well then let's just nuke the US, the UK, China, Germany, France, and pretty much everyone else because they've supplied weapons to every single despot for the last 100 years or more


but lets start with the US, let's invade because not only did the US supply Saddam with WMD but they also sold weapons to iran ..hey I wonder if any of those weapons made there way to the hezbollah

 

[Mr-Fusion]

That's a lot of rockets.

I'm sure Israel does know Iran is supplying Hezbollah with rockets, but what's Israel going to do? They wouldn't dare touch Iran and Iran wouldn't dare touch Israel directly because you know who will get involved. I don't think it'll widen at all.

Israel are going to a create a huge buffer zone, then the UN will involved, peacetalks/ceasefire/etc. Then the agreement of U.N troops to be stationed in this buffer zone will ensue.

SURELY!

 

[Icarusintel]

well then lewt's just nuke the US, the UK, China, Germany, France, and pretty much everyone else because they've supplied weapons to every single despot for the last 100 years or more


but lets start with the US, let's invade because not only did the US supply Saddam with WMD but they also sold weapons to iran ..hey I wonder if any of those weapons made there way to the hezbollah

I'm not justifying Israel's actions, just giving my estimation of the situation. My class has been researching this topic and we all came to the conclusion that the only way this war could possibly extend beyond Lebanon is if Syria or Iran is caught giving arms to Hezbollah (which is highly likely), or if one of those countries provokes an attack (which is unlikely).

 

[Bait]

Wasn't there some big debacle about a US arms shipment en route to Israel getting caught up in the UK? They decided to forego a bunch of regulations and ended up pissing off a bunch of people in charge.

It wasn't too long ago either....I'll see if I can find a link.

 

[Icarusintel]

Wasn't there some big debacle about a US arms shipment en route to Israel getting caught up in the UK? They decided to forego a bunch of regulations and ended up pissing off a bunch of people in charge.

It wasn't too long ago either....I'll see if I can find a link.

That shipment was ordered a while ago, long before this current conflict.

 

[Bait]

Was it? Hmm... I only heard of it in passing, but I thought it interesting nonetheless.

Maybe they decided to forego the regulations to get the bombs there quicker?
Regardless, do you have a link to the story?

 

[CptStern]

I'm not justifying Israel's actions, just giving my estimation of the situation. My class has been researching this topic and we all came to the conclusion that the only way this war could possibly extend beyond Lebanon is if Syria or Iran is caught giving arms to Hezbollah (which is highly likely), or if one of those countries provokes an attack (which is unlikely).

the iranian made weapons hezbollah has been using are fairly old ..some dating back to the 80's ..but even if Iran is directly arming hezbollah it's no different than the US arming israel ..in fact taking your logic one step further it justifies 9/11 .. I mean if crazy osama is pissed at israel ..surely he would attack those who armed them because it's a valid target .....right?

 

[Ome_Vince]

with that tiny differance of Hezbollah being a terrorist organisation with the purpose of Israel's destruction but o well.

Attacking SYria or Iran is bs, the situation needs to calm down not deteriorate.

 

[Ennui]

this whole situation sucks

 

[Lt. Drebin]

300 Hezbollah dead according to that CNN link. That's a far cry from what I heard 2 days ago.....something like 35.

 

[CptStern]

with that tiny differance of Hezbollah being a terrorist organisation with the purpose of Israel's destruction but o well.

and? do I need to dig up a list of terrorist organizations the US supplied with weapons? the Contras instantly leaps to mind, or how about Luis Posada carriles? Orlando Bosch? state terrorism in Mozambique, Angola, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Indonesia, East Timor, Western Sahara, South Yemen? google the School of the Americas ..it's exactly the same thing

300 Hezbollah dead according to that CNN link. That's a far cry from what I heard 2 days ago.....something like 35.

read the fine print ..300 dead according to the israeli military ..hezbollah claimed 35 confirmed (now 43)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

 

[Lt. Drebin]

..hezbollah claimed 35 confirmed (now 43)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

"Hezbollah Confirmed"

Now that's my kind of "stamp of approval".

 

[Ome_Vince]

@CptStern
You're drawing a comparisson between Israel and Hezbollah. I just explained the differance.

As for the numbers: Israel says 300, hezbollah confirms 43.
Truth might be somewhere in the middle, lol

@Lt Drebin
Yeah, and credibility stamp too.

 

[Bait]

@CptStern
You're drawing a comparisson between Israel and Hezbollah.

and? do I need to dig up a list of terrorist organizations the US supplied with weapons?

You are only reading what you want to read, me thinks.

As far as death counts go, Hezbullah's word is just as good as Israel's. Not sure why someone would really trust one over the other.

 

[Ome_Vince]

..but even if Iran is directly arming hezbollah it's no different than the US arming israel ..

@Bait, yes i think so too :angel:

I understand Stern's point, i'm refering to the current situation and Stern's comparisson. Not if the US is any better than Iran globally speaking.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

As far as death counts go, Hezbullah's word is just as good as Israel's. Not sure why someone would really trust one over the other.

If you're serious, I honestly give up. What on earth is your reasoning? The way I see it, Hezbollah has far more of a reason to lie, but you go ahead.

 

[Korgoth]

note to everyone, do not read the politics forum while listening to that song that plays when the paper bag is flying around on american beauty

 

[Gunner]

I'm not justifying Israel's actions, just giving my estimation of the situation. My class has been researching this topic and we all came to the conclusion that the only way this war could possibly extend beyond Lebanon is if Syria or Iran is caught giving arms to Hezbollah (which is highly likely), or if one of those countries provokes an attack (which is unlikely).

There is no chance this conflict will go beyond Lebanon's borders. Syria and Iran will stay unharmed.

 

[Nemesis6]

Which is pretty strange because HizbAllah is a sockpuppet of those two countries.

 

[CptStern]

oh noes it's those pesky iranians that we once sold weapons to now fighting for the other side! lets nuke them

 

[Bait]

If you're serious, I honestly give up. What on earth is your reasoning? The way I see it, Hezbollah has far more of a reason to lie, but you go ahead.

Israel is passing this conflict off as a necessity for survival. I don't know how much they overestimate Hezbullah, but there isn't a chance that it will destroy an entire nation. And the Israelis are buying into it. Israel is lying to its population to keep it in check and not question the necessity to bomb this shit out of the Lebanese.

Do you think Israel would say 30-some deaths after the ravages they have been putting on the country? It would make them look even more inept then they already are.

Realistically, though, there is no way of knowing who is right and who is wrong. Once the dust settles, we may find out. But by then the problems would be great enough, anyways.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Israel is lying to its population to keep it in check and not question the necessity to bomb this shit out of the Lebanese.

1. Their ridiculous use of force notwithstanding, they're going after Hezbollah. I don't want to get into it about the tragic loss of Lebanese life.....no one can justify that....so lets not even bother. If this conflict is to continue, Israel needs to exercise a far greater use of precision....huge understatement, I know. The loss of Lebanese life has been attrocious, but lets stop claiming that Israel is targeting these citizens with undeniable malicious intent. That's nothing more than nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised to see a large amount of aid to Lebanon from Israel after Hezbollah is removed.

2. You tell that, with the correct terminology, to the people in towns in Northern Israel that have gotten showered by rockets lately and the random ones that would just float in whenever Hezbollah felt saucy. Hell, let's extend this all over Israel to include the hundreds of attacks over the years...I seriously doubt most Israelis need to be lied to. The hatred in this region is palpable.

Do you think Israel would say 30-some deaths after the ravages they have been putting on the country? It would make them look even more inept then they already are.

Agreed. But in the same breath, couldn't you say that the 30-some dead figure is unrealistic considering the amount of damage the IAF has done?? I find it hard to believe anyone can make it out of some of those areas.

Realistically, though, there is no way of knowing who is right and who is wrong. Once the dust settles, we may find out. But by then the problems would be great enough, anyways.

I'm less inclined to believe a word that spews out of the mouth of a terrorist organization. I'm gonna go ahead and agree with OME_Vince on this...the number is somewhere in between.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Considering the amount of bombs dropped, Hezbollah's claim is more than rediculous.
It would imply nearly every bomb that hits something didnt hit Hezbollah but "innocent civilians".
Since Hezbollah doesnt have a line between armed forces and civilians, its easy to call a killed fighter a killed civilian.
I'm not claiming thats the case all the time, clearly innoncent civilians are hit alot, but just countering Hezbollah's words.

Especially the rediculous story today was hilarious on how Hezbollah claims Israel snatched "innocent civilians" out of a hospital.
Yeah right, thats why there were a multitude of armed men in their firing at Israeli special forces who were there on a large scale operation to snatch 5 "innocent civilians".
But hey, its normal to have loads of armed people in hospitals isnt it? Or weapons
Ofcourse this doesnt justify Israel's methods, but i hope it makes the situation less black & white as some people make it look...

 

[Bait]

The loss of Lebanese life has been attrocious, but lets stop claiming that Israel is targeting these citizens with undeniable malicious intent.

Irrelevant. Israel IS killing the Lebanese people, and that is what takes prescedence over everything else. By my view, it can be explained in one of two ways:
1) Purposeful intent
2) Ineptness and ignorance

Take you pick.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a large amount of aid to Lebanon from Israel after Hezbollah is removed.

It would be nice to see Israel fork over 2 billion + to Lebanon for all the damage it has done. But, I am not so optimistic, so I won't hold my breath.

2. You tell that, with the correct terminology, to the people in towns in Northern Israel that have gotten showered by rockets lately and the random ones that would just float in whenever Hezbollah felt saucy. Hell, let's extend this all over Israel to include the hundreds of attacks over the years...I seriously doubt most Israelis need to be lied to. The hatred in this region is palpable.

Bleh....the thing about this situation is you can invert Lebanon and/or Hezbullah and Israel in most arguments and still come out with something that makes sense. Try doing that with this argument and see what I mean.

Agreed. But in the same breath, couldn't you say that the 30-some dead figure is unrealistic considering the amount of damage the IAF has done?? I find it hard to believe anyone can make it out of some of those areas.

I read this and I immediately began to think about the Israeli warnings to civilians to get out....

Anyway, I won't comment on the number dead, because I frankly don't know. No one does, I imagine. But don't be so quick to judge Israel truthful and Hezbullah deceitful in this regard.

I'm less inclined to believe a word that spews out of the mouth of a terrorist organization. I'm gonna go ahead and agree with OME_Vince on this...the number is somewhere in between.

Bah, by my estimation, Israel is far more terroristic in nature during this conflict (and the past, I suppose) than Hezbullah. Democracy simply veils it, albeit thinly. Whenever I hear the words "terrorist" or "terrorist organization", I always take it with a grain of salt. Someone is benefitting out there from labelling these people as terrorists, and it lands on regular joes like us to decipher whether they are or are not.

All that said, I am sick and tired of watching the world lay down. Words and condemnations can only do so much. Things are going to get worse before they get better, so I just can't understand why things aren't being solved much more quickly.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

I'm less inclined to believe a word that spews out of the mouth of a terrorist organization.

I want to quote you on this, because unfortuneatly it seems that for you, terrorist organisations are limited to small groups of guerrilla fighters that are predominatly islamic.


Definition of terrorism:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

One of the biggest terrorist organisations and supporter of terrorist organisations in the world is the government of the United states of america. They have infact been convicted by international courts for conducting terrorism.

My point is this, Just like Hizbullah is an organized group, so is the government of isreal. How ever, when Hizbullah comits act of terrorism, they become a terrorist organisation. When the Isreali government commit acts of terrorism, they are not called a terrorist organisation. Why? beats the hell out of me.

You shouldn't be so ready to believe the words that spew out of a government that have commited terrorist acts either. And also, the scale of how much an orgnisation can be regarded as a terrorist organisation is not determined by how religious they may be or how small they may be, but how much unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence they have used with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Irrelevant. Israel IS killing the Lebanese people, and that is what takes prescedence over everything else. By my view, it can be explained in one of two ways:
1) Purposeful intent
2) Ineptness and ignorance

Take you pick.

You're being foolish if you honetly believe it's purposeful. Inept.....sure. Ignorant....why not. But to put them on the level of Hezbollah....indescriminatly murdering civilians for no more of a reason than you want their civilization gone.......utter foolishness...try making that point anywhere else. Foolish.

It would be nice to see Israel fork over 2 billion + to Lebanon for all the damage it has done. But, I am not so optimistic, so I won't hold my breath.

I am.....and for the sake of lasting peace you should be also.

Bleh....the thing about this situation is you can invert Lebanon and/or Hezbullah and Israel in most arguments and still come out with something that makes sense. Try doing that with this argument and see what I mean.

I did. You're simply not addressing a valid point.

I read this and I immediately began to think about the Israeli warnings to
civilians to get out....

Anyway, I won't comment on the number dead, because I frankly don't know. No one does, I imagine. But don't be so quick to judge Israel truthful and Hezbullah deceitful in this regard.

Hey there it is again. "Hezbollah Confirmed". FFS, you can Wiki the acts of this group.....or acts this group has been involved in. This group wants Israel gone....have you even read their credo....ffs.....they have said simply there can be no peace with the state of Israel in existance. Yet you're just as inclined to believe them in a conflict with no less than Israel.

:rolling:

Bah, by my estimation, Israel is far more terroristic in nature during this conflict (and the past, I suppose) than Hezbullah.

That's just so f***ing dumb. Hezbollah and Hamas have accords to which they will strive to destroy Israel. Definition: Uses means to invoke fear...terror in individuals so to accomplish a goal. Showering rockets at innocent civilians....leave this region. Walking into a bar and blowing up 50 innocent people.....leave this region. Give me a f***ing break. That is terrorism. Israel has a history of being incredibly reactionary to this shit....you don't see the IDF purposefully and malliciously hunting down innocent teenagers in Palestine...do you??? I won't deny that Israel retaliates when this stuff happens, however.

Democracy simply veils it, albeit thinly. Whenever I hear the words "terrorist" or "terrorist organization", I always take it with a grain of salt. Someone is benefitting out there from labelling these people as terrorists, and it lands on regular joes like us to decipher whether they are or are not.

Look. What happened here almost 5 years ago....happens daily over there. What sickens me is that we only "decipher" when it hits home. You're forced to live in the moment with this CNN, FOX NEWs, MSNBC, BBC bullshit. They quickly forget the events that lead up to these types of messes. Make no mistake, this is a 60-something year old conflict that's having a moment where it's erupted terribly. Many lives have been lost in the last 3 weeks....mostly innocent....mostly Israels fault. But the second you start confusing the true enemies here....you condemn this conflict to 60 more years of f***ing death and destruction. Israel has a right to exist....rogue militant murderers do not.

All that said, I am sick and tired of watching the world lay down. Words and condemnations can only do so much. Things are going to get worse before they get better, so I just can't understand why things aren't being solved much more quickly.

By laying down....you wouldn't happen to be refering to UN resolution after resolution calling for Lebanon to disarm and disband Hezbollah and move them away from Israel's border???? You wouldn't be refereing to the world condemning over and over and over the suicide attacks of Hamas and other anti-Israeli militants in the region????? Things are worse now. We can only hope they'll get better with less innocent bloodshed.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

>>Frenzy<<, read my reply to Bait for my reasoning.

I simply don't have the time to repeat myself ad nauseum. If you can't tell the difference b/w Israel and Hezbollah then that's YOUR problem and you need a big history lesson...other than that...I couldn't give a f*** less.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Hey there it is again. "Hezbollah Confirmed". FFS, you can Wiki the acts of this group.....or acts this group has been involved in. This group wants Israel gone....have you even read their credo....ffs.....they have said simply there can be no peace with the state of Israel in existance. Yet you're just as inclined to believe them in a conflict with no less than Israel.

Did you try Wiki'ing Isreali's acts of terror?
And do you honestly think that the isreali people, that the Isreali government believes there can be peace with the existance of muslims in the middle east? Isreal wants muslims gone just as much as muslims want Isrealis gone. The only difference is that muslims are dumb enough to say it loud and clearly.

That's just so f***ing dumb. Hezbollah and Hamas have accords to which they will strive to destroy Israel. Definition: Uses means to invoke fear...terror in individuals so to accomplish a goal. Showering rockets at innocent civilians....leave this region. Walking into a bar and blowing up 50 innocent people.....leave this region. Give me a f***ing break. That is terrorism. Israel has a history of being incredibly reactionary to this shit....you don't see the IDF purposefully and malliciously hunting down innocent teenagers in Palestine...do you??? I won't deny that Israel retaliates when this stuff happens, however.

If you want a functioning definition of terrorism, it is the unlawful or threatened use of violence/force with the intention of intimidating/coercing soceities or governments. You need to begin the acknowledge that Isreal have commited acts of terror in the middleeast aswell. Do you have any idea what the Isreali intelligence agency does palestinians?? The whole nine yards my friend, they have assasinated, tortured and bombed just as much, if not many more muslims, as hizbullah and hamas have put together. You don't walk into a cafe with bombs strapped to yourself for no reason.

But the second you start confusing the true enemies here....you condemn this conflict to 60 more years of f***ing death and destruction. Israel has a right to exist....rogue militant murderers do not.

Isreal has a right to exist, yes. Does it have the right to invade and destroy whole nations as well? Rougue Militant Murderes do not deserve to exist, but niether does an Isreali military that kills children. That assasinates and tortures people.

By laying down....you wouldn't happen to be refering to UN resolution after resolution calling for Lebanon to disarm and disband Hezbollah and move them away from Israel's border???? You wouldn't be refereing to the world condemning over and over and over the suicide attacks of Hamas and other anti-Israeli militants in the region????? Things are worse now. We can only hope they'll get better with less innocent bloodshed.

How about what the world codemns Isreal for? Namely their handling of palestinians, their attack on a civilian aircraft, there practices of torture, assasinations, the intentional killing of children by their soldiers, the list goes on. And if you think Isreal abides by the UN....you are very far from the truth. They bomb UN observations centers for godssake.

My point is this, while Hizbullah is a terrorist organisation that must be disbanded, Isreal military practices and use of terrorism is highly questionable, and should also be disbanded. Hizbullah, whether or not it was them who started this conflict are a natural force of resistance to Isreal's dominant military presence in the middle east. It's not as simple as saying Hizbullah terrorist muslim BAD, Isreal, modern nation GOOD.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Did you try Wiki'ing Isreali's acts of terror?
And do you honestly think that the isreali people, that the Isreali government believes there can be peace with the existance of muslims in the middle east? Isreal wants muslims gone just as much as muslims want Isrealis gone. The only difference is that muslims are dumb enough to say it loud and clearly.

Thats bullshit man. Its baseless assumptions. Israel could get rid of the muslims tomorrow if they wanted -> they certainly have the weapons for it.

Comparing Israel with these terrorist organisations is rediculous = these organisations are not only fighting to terrorize israel, but with the intent of destroying it.
Israel is clearly not fighting to destroy anyone, and is fighting for pure survival.
How do you think Israel dug so deep into its military arsenal?
Just "all of a sudden" because they wanted to get rid of Arabs? And then when they have the weapons they dont?
No -> after 60 years of intimidations, vows to be whiped out, invasions, terrorist attacks, rocket attacks etc, the society is doing its best not to get paranoid, and made sure it had a big enough stick to smack people on the head that tried to kill them.

If you want a functioning definition of terrorism, it is the unlawful or threatened use of violence/force with the intention of intimidating/coercing soceities or governments. You need to begin the acknowledge that Isreal have commited acts of terror in the middleeast aswell. Do you have any idea what the Isreali intelligence agency does palestinians?? The whole nine yards my friend, they have assasinated, tortured and bombed just as much, if not many more muslims, as hizbullah and hamas have put together. You don't walk into a cafe with bombs strapped to yourself for no reason.

Do you have any numbers to back that claim up?
For this is getting hilarious. And dont come with casualties of war (you're talking about terrorism)
To give a rediculing example: by that same claim, Holland my country is no different than Hezbollah or any terrorist organisation.
Attacks should start by Indonesia, since we slaughtered 500k there 50 years ago. Happy hunting.

Also, i can give you a reason why they would strap a bomb on themselves: they want land and they're brainwished by religious backing.
As funny as it is, their public excuse for slaughtering innocent civilians, is a small piece of land.
Thats bullshit, this is just a religious war, nothing more: Why else would Hezbollah publically apologise when it slaughters Iraeli Muslim children, and not care when they kill Israeli Jewish children.
Hell you can even hear them and Hamas say it: they're constantly refering to "zionists" and "the blood of jews" etc.
Not Israel, but jews is what they keep refering to.

Its a common mistake terrorists act out of pure emotional despair. They are not raving, screaming luny's, they're calm, but mentally not fit.
Reasons for this can vary, but in this case are backed by religious indoctrination.
Go watch their TV here and you'll be shocked at what you see.

Isreal has a right to exist, yes. Does it have the right to invade and destroy whole nations as well? Rougue Militant Murderes do not deserve to exist, but niether does an Isreali military that kills children. That assasinates and tortures people.

Israel doesnt "all of a sudden invade". England and France didnt "all of a sudden" invade Germany, and when that happens there were also many examples of attrocities done by soldiers.
When a war is inflicted upon you, your soldiers are mere human, which we can see many examples of in the Iraq war.
Assasinations and torture? you sound like a Hezbollah propaganda machine with these ungrounded claims.
Hezbollah is not a mere rogue small organisation like the local boyscouts, it constrols the entire south of Lebanon, and a portion of the government.
Its rooted so deep into society, with both its military and civilian wing getting rid of it would meen civil war...

According to UN resolution 1559 they were suppost to disarm, which they didnt.
Lebanon couldnt get rid of them, and the UN doesnt care so the military wing of Hezbollah continues to joyfully launch rockets at Israel.
And dont start spamming as if the IDF walks around killing children, they do their best not to hit civillians, while Hezbollah does its best TO kill civilians.
Unfortunatly, and ironically due to crappy tactics, a dug-in-society opponent and bigger guns, the IDF manages to inflict more casualties than Hezbollah.

How about what the world codemns Isreal for? Namely their handling of palestinians, their attack on a civilian aircraft, there practices of torture, assasinations, the intentional killing of children by their soldiers, the list goes on. And if you think Isreal abides by the UN....you are very far from the truth. They bomb UN observations centers for godssake.

Thats a nice piece of ungrounded crap, i printed it out and whiped my ass with it this morning.
The UN has ass****ed Israel alot of times, even with the current situtaion.
If you read a little in history, you'll see the first Lebanon invasion was similar to this one:
Terrorist organisations like the PLO sit in Lebanon firing rockets constantly at Israel.
Nobody cares, so Israel decides to go in on itself.
UN demands Israel pulls out, so it will station an international force their.
Israel pulls out.
International force doesnt do jack shit, and the newly found Hezbollah backed, funded and armed by Syria and Iran, start happily attacking Israel where the PLO left off.
This eventually leads to the second invasion, in which after a few years the UN says: Israel leave, Syria leave and Hezbollah disarm.
Only 1 thing actually happens (1 side actually listens to the UN), you want to know who? Take a guess..

ISRAEL!!! They pull out, anticipating the UN will force its resolution at Syria to pull out, and Hezbollah to disarm, but that doesnt happen!
Syria pulls out 5 years later after renewed pressure, and Hezbollah still walks around getting stronger and stronger firing rockets and terrorizing Israel!
And now, years later, this has lead to the 3e invasion of Lebanon!
Israel got ass****ed by the UN who doesnt give a shit, thats probably why they're thinking: F* you guys, we'll take care of it ourselves, you can come later on and make sure they dont come back.

So people, how can we prevent this crap from happening again? Simple: disarm Hezbollah and create a bufferzone with an international force making sure this terrorizing stops...

My point is this, while Hizbullah is a terrorist organisation that must be disbanded, Isreal military practices and use of terrorism is highly questionable, and should also be disbanded. Hizbullah, whether or not it was them who started this conflict are a natural force of resistance to Isreal's dominant military presence in the middle east. It's not as simple as saying Hizbullah terrorist muslim BAD, Isreal, modern nation GOOD.

Let me see if i get this straight:
Because Israel has a big army, Hezbollah is autherized to "resist" them with terror? W...T...F
As i explained before, any idea how Israel got such arms and big army? Its not because they have a fetish for tanks i can tell you that.
Israel is not involved in terrorist activities in the middle-east or vows to whipe out anyone.
If you claim otherwise, the burden is on you to prove it.

Its not "Hezbollah terrorist muslim bad", thats just hippy-talk. Its "Hezbollah terrorist goals to whipe out a nation and constant actions bad", they should be dis-armed and form a political party if they want to.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Did you try Wiki'ing Isreali's acts of terror?
And do you honestly think that the isreali people, that the Isreali government believes there can be peace with the existance of muslims in the middle east? Isreal wants muslims gone just as much as muslims want Isrealis gone. The only difference is that muslims are dumb enough to say it loud and clearly.

I'm sure when you go to Wiki, you type in "Israeli Acts of Terror". 99.999999999% of Israels acitons have been reactionary. That doesn't always make their response correct, but let's not beat around this....they are almost always provoked. I would love to see some source showing that Israelis want Muslims in the region "gone".....if that was said, it wouldn't have anything to do with the 60 years of attacks form Muslims fanatics.

If you want a functioning definition of terrorism, it is the unlawful or threatened use of violence/force with the intention of intimidating/coercing soceities or governments. You need to begin the acknowledge that Isreal have commited acts of terror in the middleeast aswell. Do you have any idea what the Isreali intelligence agency does palestinians?? The whole nine yards my friend, they have assasinated, tortured and bombed just as much, if not many more muslims, as hizbullah and hamas have put together. You don't walk into a cafe with bombs strapped to yourself for no reason.

Isreal has a right to exist, yes. Does it have the right to invade and destroy whole nations as well? Rougue Militant Murderes do not deserve to exist, but niether does an Isreali military that kills children. That assasinates and tortures people.

How about what the world codemns Isreal for? Namely their handling of palestinians, their attack on a civilian aircraft, there practices of torture, assasinations, the intentional killing of children by their soldiers, the list goes on. And if you think Isreal abides by the UN....you are very far from the truth. They bomb UN observations centers for godssake.

I'll just go ahead and put all three of these quotes together.

1) Again, can we stop this nonsense. I agree that Irael has f***ed up quite a few times in this "micro-cosm" of a 6 decade old conflict. But let's just stop this "Israel is murdering Lebanese civilians, children, palestinians, etc.." Seriously, if you're going to make this claim over and over, provide a god damn link showing Olmert saying we're killing/torturing/maiming/assassinating innocent civilians because that's what we want to do. We're not actually targeting a group of militants that want nothing more than the destruction of our nation. Show me that link and I'll gladly concede this point...until then...your claim of Israel purposefully and maliciously attacking innocents is baseless.

2) Again, history is key here. This 60 year old conflict began with the simple establishment of Israel. Nothing more. Israel, according to them, is on their land. They want it gone. While I won't dispute their claim, because it is somewhat based on fact....killing innocent Israelis will NEVER get them what they want. Hell, even when Israel fullfills agreements, such as pulling out of Gaza, southern Lebanon, they still get attacked. Believe me...it all began with the murders of innocent Israelis and won't end until these groups ae gone. Your post tells me that you simply don't understand what has happened and you need to read up.

My point is this, while Hizbullah is a terrorist organisation that must be disbanded, Isreal military practices and use of terrorism is highly questionable, and should also be disbanded. Hizbullah, whether or not it was them who started this conflict are a natural force of resistance to Isreal's dominant military presence in the middle east. It's not as simple as saying Hizbullah terrorist muslim BAD, Isreal, modern nation GOOD.

I don't relly believe you think Hezbollah is a terrorist org. None of your posts speak to that but rather the opposite. Also, I think OME_Vince has addressed this post quite well.....nuff said. As for the rest, I'm simply repeating myself again.

I'm actually going out of town for a few days....leaving within the hour, but I'll check in periodically because I love this topic. Have a good weekend guys.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Thats bullshit man. Its baseless assumptions. Israel could get rid of the muslims tomorrow if they wanted -> they certainly have the weapons for it.

Yeah, they certainly have the weapons for it (weapons that they deny they have but the rest of the world knows they have it.) Tell me this, why is it that there has never been any controversy over the fact that Isreal has nuclear weaponry but as soon as Iran considers nuclear energy the world goes crazy? And if your answer is that Iran is an unstable nation, then have a long hard look at how unstable Isreal is.

Comparing Israel with these terrorist organisations is rediculous = these organisations are not only fighting to terrorize israel, but with the intent of destroying it.

The reason someone would terrorize something is because they have the intent of destroying that thing. So for example, Isreal is terrorizing hezbullah and the lebanese people at the moment because it has the intent of destroy hezbullah.

Israel is clearly not fighting to destroy anyone, and is fighting for pure survival.

What your saying doesnt make sense. In order for Isreal to survive, it must destroy others, namely hezbullah. Hence it is fighting to 'destroy' hezbullah and the lebanese people in order to ensure its 'survival'. Clearly.

Do you have any numbers to back that claim up? (refering to my claim that isreal conducts acts of terror)

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150311998?open&of=ENG-ISR

I didn't have time to find a very recent source, but the article details acts of torture by the isreali government (which counts as terrorism against the people being tortured) after they declared they were against all torture.

To give a rediculing example: by that same claim, Holland my country is no different than Hezbollah or any terrorist organisation.
Attacks should start by Indonesia, since we slaughtered 500k there 50 years ago. Happy hunting.

Yes they are not any different. Your country has a history of terrorizing people, and should be regarded as terrorists in that point of history.

Also, i can give you a reason why they would strap a bomb on themselves: they want land and they're brainwished by religious backing.

You spend an extremely long time telling us that the conflict that casued isreal to attack lebanon reaches over years and years, but when it comes to stating the cause of suicide bombers attacking isreal you reduce it to 'wanting land' and brainwashing. Resistance to Isreal and the terrorism towards isreal is something that has developed over decades.

Its a common mistake terrorists act out of pure emotional despair. They are not raving, screaming luny's, they're calm, but mentally not fit.
Reasons for this can vary, but in this case are backed by religious indoctrination.

No, they are mentally very fit, and very cunning. Terrorism is conducted against a group/nation/etc with clear intentions, and is usually a very complex process. You need to be very intelligent to conduct terror on someone.

Assasinations and torture? you sound like a Hezbollah propaganda machine with these ungrounded claims.
Hezbollah is not a mere rogue small organisation like the local boyscouts, it constrols the entire south of Lebanon, and a portion of the government.
Its rooted so deep into society, with both its military and civilian wing getting rid of it would meen civil war...

Which shows you, that Hezbollah, as an organisation are not that different from the political party in power of isreal.

According to UN resolution 1559 they were suppost to disarm, which they didnt.
Lebanon couldnt get rid of them, and the UN doesnt care so the military wing of Hezbollah continues to joyfully launch rockets at Israel.
And dont start spamming as if the IDF walks around killing children, they do their best not to hit civillians, while Hezbollah does its best TO kill civilians.
Unfortunatly, and ironically due to crappy tactics, a dug-in-society opponent and bigger guns, the IDF manages to inflict more casualties than Hezbollah.

http://www.muslimedia.com/ARCHIVES/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm

How about these UN resolutions? Theres a whole list of about 90 there. How well does Isreal abide by them?

yeah, so isreal doing their best to not hit civillians are 'unfortuneatly' using 'crappy tactics' which end up inflicting more casualites then hezbollah. Isreal can do much better than that....and you know it.

Thats a nice piece of ungrounded crap,

Those claims are quite grounded infact. Ive already posted the link for amnesty internationals report on Isreali accounts of torture and the UN resolutions. I havent got enough time to provide you a neat list of all the crimes Isreal has committed, but its about time you admit that they have happened. Maybe if you werent so biased towards the Isreali cause you would have done some research into all the shit Isreal has done.

So people, how can we prevent this crap from happening again? Simple: disarm Hezbollah and create a bufferzone with an international force making sure this terrorizing stops...

yes, I completely agree that hezbollah must be disarmed, but blowing up lebanon and its people to smithereens is the opposite of stopping this from happening again. It will infact breed more terrorism, and give muslim radicals all the more reason to go on terrorising isreal.

Let me see if i get this straight:
Because Israel has a big army, Hezbollah is autherized to "resist" them with terror? W...T...F

Where the hell did I say authorize? No, you didnt get that straight at all.

Its not "Hezbollah terrorist muslim bad", thats just hippy-talk. Its "Hezbollah terrorist goals to whipe out a nation and constant actions bad", they should be dis-armed and form a political party if they want to.

Well firstly, Isreals aim is to completely destroy hezbollah, not make an unarmed political group out of them. Secondly, Ive pointed this out, Isreal wants muslims out just as much as Hezbollah and the muslims they represent want the jews out. Both of their goals is to wipe each other out which is the issue in the first place. Both have constant actions towards each other which are bad also. You are lying to me if your saying that Isrealis are happy having muslims living with them.

Hezbollah is a ****ed up organisation, but so is the Isreali government. Both have commited evils towards the people in the middle east. This is a fact and its about time you accept it. Whether one group started it, or did worse things is irrelevant. The issue here is that there is a continued aggression between the muslim and jewish people, and the sitation between them will not cease as long as they are both armed. Sucide bombs will not resolve this issue, niether will bombing lebanon. This is an issue where emotions must be put aside and a clear, rational solution must be found.

 

[mortiz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5249972.stm

Israel's tactics FTW! Yes, Hezbollah are on their knees! This increasing number of rockets being fired into northern Israel is obviously an act of desperation from an organization with no structure left.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Yeah, they certainly have the weapons for it (weapons that they deny they have but the rest of the world knows they have it.) Tell me this, why is it that there has never been any controversy over the fact that Isreal has nuclear weaponry but as soon as Iran considers nuclear energy the world goes crazy? And if your answer is that Iran is an unstable nation, then have a long hard look at how unstable Isreal is.

What does that have to do with this topic?
Beats me, though i think a comparisson between Iran and Israel isnt "realistic" to say the least. Israel is not vowing to whipe a certain nation of the face of the earth (repeatedly), or even trying to rally and call on other nations to do it, or sponsoring and arming Terrorist organisations to draw these nations into war.
That goes a long way i credibility imo. If only we acted when Hitler was only spamming macho-talk....

The reason someone would terrorize something is because they have the intent of destroying that thing. So for example, Isreal is terrorizing hezbullah and the lebanese people at the moment because it has the intent of destroy hezbullah.

Exactly, since the destruction of Israel and killing of "jews" is rediculous, Hezbollah should not be allowed to have armed militia controlling the entire South terrorizing Israel.

What your saying doesnt make sense. In order for Isreal to survive, it must destroy others, namely hezbullah. Hence it is fighting to 'destroy' hezbullah and the lebanese people in order to ensure its 'survival'. Clearly.

In order for Israel to survive, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Aqsa etc (whom have the eternal goal to destroy Israel and kill all the jews) must end.
And especially since these organisations are now starting to control states like in Palestine.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150311998?open&of=ENG-ISR

I didn't have time to find a very recent source, but the article details acts of torture by the isreali government (which counts as terrorism against the people being tortured) after they declared they were against all torture.

painful positions (shabeh), sleep deprivation, hooding, playing raucous music, threats including death threats and violent shaking which can cause death.

Painfull positions? sleep deprivation, loud music? wtf, from 1998?
Some of this stuff i've read the US government does aswell, and even some of the stuff my government does aswell.
Its not legal, but its tricks on how cops get the "truth outta you".
Cops in general use all kinds of sick tricks to get you to confess, considering that paranoid situation of terror, i'm guessing the cops work extra hard to prevent suicide bombings..
I also dont see any numbers in it, i read similar incidents in our newspapers on how the British cops shot that Brazilian running into the metro, does that make the Government comparable with terrorists?
Or the Dutch cops that out of paranoia raided the dutch-arabic family arresting several kids amongst others?
In fear of terrorism, society tends to fall down a slope a little, but its not even close to the group in which the terrorists themselves are.
Not only due to actions, but also methods and goals.
In simple:
-Israel as a nation sometimes uses questionable tactics to prevent daily suicide attempts and other terror on its people.
-Hamas and Hezbollah amongst other terrorist organisations, constantly tries to terrorize a nation with the purpose of eventually destroying it.

Yes they are not any different. Your country has a history of terrorizing people, and should be regarded as terrorists in that point of history.

By that same rationality:
We are terrorists.. and so are the Brits, the French and everybody else engaged in war.
Then i dont understand what the big deal is around terrorism, where would that fear come from, the brutality and inhumanity of the methods used often paralizing society.
It then all falls into the same book, where only numbers count => i give you, the effectiveness of 4th generation warfare.

You spend an extremely long time telling us that the conflict that casued isreal to attack lebanon reaches over years and years, but when it comes to stating the cause of suicide bombers attacking isreal you reduce it to 'wanting land' and brainwashing. Resistance to Isreal and the terrorism towards isreal is something that has developed over decades.

That was started before Israel was even formed:

"On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's
independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on
Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem.

Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is
obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of
"occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state."

No doubt decades of Israeli responses or constant fighting fuel terrorist intentions and indoctrination, yet it hasnt spawned them as many would like to say.

And if you do want to simplify what i'm saying, do it right:
-Israeli response: unproportional self-defence
-These terror organisations: utilize 4th generation warfare to destroy Israel

No, they are mentally very fit, and very cunning. Terrorism is conducted against a group/nation/etc with clear intentions, and is usually a very complex process. You need to be very intelligent to conduct terror on someone.

This is confusing: are you comfirming what i said? or misunderstanding for we are saying the same thing...

Which shows you, that Hezbollah, as an organisation are not that different from the political party in power of isreal.

Yes, because that organisation also goes wondering around randomly shooting rockets are other nations to provoke war with the goal to whipe them out...
The Lebanon conflict also spans many governments in Israel (its around 30 years of trouble).

http://www.muslimedia.com/ARCHIVES/special-edition/terrorism50/unresolu.htm

How about these UN resolutions? Theres a whole list of about 90 there. How well does Isreal abide by them?

First of all: what does that have to do with the cluster-**** of UN resolutions that led to this crisis.
I'm confused, I thought we were debating the history of this situation, instead of how "nice" Israel is as a nation.

Second: Search for "Lebanon" in that list, you'll see a "nice" load. This is concerning Israel's response attacks in the past towards Lebanon, fighting terrorism.
Now, in order to clean a large portion of that list, and prevent it from expanding: Hezbollah and similar organisations must be removed.

yeah, so isreal doing their best to not hit civillians are 'unfortuneatly' using 'crappy tactics' which end up inflicting more casualites then hezbollah. Isreal can do much better than that....and you know it.

Uhm, bombing terrorists is just rediculous. I'm sure they feel like shit that they arent 100% perfect army hitting every target, especially when targets seem to blend in with society like in schools and hospitals.

Whats your point with this part: are you implying Israel is deliberatly trying to terrorize Lebanon so Hezbollah can grow, and the world can critisize and dislike Israel again for every civilian killed?
Or that Israel has another agende, which nobody can seem to figure out, since there is no credible one that makes sense considering the amount of credibility, money, weapons (and the list goes on) what Israel loses with this action.

Those claims are quite grounded infact. Ive already posted the link for amnesty internationals report on Isreali accounts of torture and the UN resolutions. I havent got enough time to provide you a neat list of all the crimes Isreal has committed, but its about time you admit that they have happened. Maybe if you werent so biased towards the Isreali cause you would have done some research into all the shit Isreal has done.

Please do, especially that intentional killing of civilians, and then on top of that go down in history
and see how many international laws the palestinian organisations broke, provoking this atmosphere, some even before Israel was formed.
I'm not saying Israel is goody-little-2-shoes, but its rediculous to compare Israel with Hezbollah.
Thats like comparing Charles Manson with Holland, because we've killed more by bombing Kosovo or giving 8000 albanese to the serbs which were then killed.

When surrounded by pure hatred ever since the idea of Israel came in place, with countless attacks and wars its amazing they arent lobbing its nukes around.
Especially with king fire-starters Iran and Syria around.

yes, I completely agree that hezbollah must be disarmed, but blowing up lebanon and its people to smithereens is the opposite of stopping this from happening again. It will infact breed more terrorism, and give muslim radicals all the more reason to go on terrorising isreal.

So we do agree on this fact, just the comparisson not.

Where the hell did I say authorize? No, you didnt get that straight at all.

..are a natural force of resistance to Isreal's dominant military presence in the middle east..

Probably from here. Care to explain if thats not what you meant?

Well firstly, Isreals aim is to completely destroy hezbollah, not make an unarmed political group out of them. Secondly, Ive pointed this out, Isreal wants muslims out just as much as Hezbollah and the muslims they represent want the jews out. Both of their goals is to wipe each other out which is the issue in the first place. Both have constant actions towards each other which are bad also. You are lying to me if your saying that Isrealis are happy having muslims living with them.

I actually have had the pleasure of working alot with Israeli Muslims in Israel. Great people and had lots of fun with them, and so did the Israeli jews i knew.
Sure, the curly religious idiots probably dont like Muslims, just as we have neo-nazi's around, but the majority of sane Israeli's including the government doesnt give a ****.
Just look at the % of muslims living in Israel taking part in the society.
I'm sure the Palestinians dont give a **** either, and just want to get on with their lives, hence to help them AND Israel these organisations need to be removed so peace can have a chance, since most peace negotiations have been broken by terrorist attacks, followed by a military reprisal of Israel..
Just look at the amount of times Hamas trashed peace, or Hezbollah being blamed by the Palestinian authorities even!!, for extra-funding terror operations in Israel last year when peace-talks were going on.
The same with Iran and Syria pushing Lebanon amongst other countries out of peace-treaty talks with Israel in '83, followed by assasinations of the ones involved.

..Israel does not want to whipe out muslims, that claim is ungrounded.

Hezbollah is a ****ed up organisation, but so is the Isreali government. Both have commited evils towards the people in the middle east. This is a fact and its about time you accept it. Whether one group started it, or did worse things is irrelevant. The issue here is that there is a continued aggression between the muslim and jewish people, and the sitation between them will not cease as long as they are both armed. Sucide bombs will not resolve this issue, niether will bombing lebanon. This is an issue where emotions must be put aside and a clear, rational solution must be found.

I've stated a number of times a rational solution, which Israel itself supports.

That Israel is no saint, is that what you're trying to accomplish here? Here ya go: thats true!
Though the comparisson with Hezbollah and Hamas (or any other terrorist organisation) simply doesnt stand.

You cant compare organisations fighting 4th generation warfare against a nation who's under this constant attack.
Then if that nation responds: say "they're the same" or "fall under the same category".
Sure Israel deserves critisism, its been getting alot over the years since this kind of warfare is very very effective, especially in creating paranoid behavior..

All in all, we're not far apart, i agree with the critisism, i just disagree fully with any comparissons between democratic nations and terrorist organisations with goals to whipe people out.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

I have to keep this short because my time is limited. Im focusing on comparison here since that is where our views differ.

First of all: what does that have to do with the cluster-**** of UN resolutions that led to this crisis.
I'm confused, I thought we were debating the history of this situation, instead of how "nice" Israel is as a nation.

That was started before Israel was even formed:

"On Sunday morning, February 22, 1948, in anticipation of Israel's
independence, a triple truck bomb was detonated by Arab terrorists on
Ben Yehuda Street, in what was then the Jewish section of Jerusalem.

Fifty-four people were killed, and hundreds were wounded. Thus, it is
obvious that Arab terrorism is caused not by the "desperation" of
"occupation", but by the VERY THOUGHT of a Jewish state."

No doubt decades of Israeli responses or constant fighting fuel terrorist intentions and indoctrination, yet it hasnt spawned them as many would like to say.

And if you do want to simplify what i'm saying, do it right:
-Israeli response: unproportional self-defence
-These terror organisations: utilize 4th generation warfare to destroy Israel

No, we are not debating the history of this situation, because who started what, when does not concern me, a debate about this would last for ages and would ultimately be pointless. What concerns me and should be concerning everybody else is how to resolve this issue. And a continued aggression towards the nations surrounding Isreal and the palestinian people will not and has not been resolving this issue, it has only been making it worse (same goes for the muslim terror organisations). There is no way to peace, peace is the way.

In order for Israel to survive, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Aqsa etc (whom have the eternal goal to destroy Israel and kill all the jews) must end.
And especially since these organisations are now starting to control states like in Palestine.

Another organisation that is currently controlling Palestine is the Isreali government. "in order for" Palestine "to survive", the Isreali government "must end."

The point Im trying to make here, is that the same argument you use to justify the actions of Isreali government, the Palestinians can use to justify the actions of muslim terrorist organisations. One entities survival means the other entities destruction in these cases. The Truth is that the best means of survival is establishing long lasting peace between the two entities that beleive their survival is threatened, and as long as there is aggression, fear and hate between them, this cannot be achieved.

We have to establish that when you hate something, you desire to destroy it.

Does Hezbollah hate Isreal? yes
Do muslims in the middle east (many of whom support terrorist organisations) hate the Isreali defence force, and the jewish state? generally speaking yes.

Now does the Isreali government and its defence force hate hamas, hezbollah and other terrorist organisations? yes.
Do Jews in the middle east hate muslims (many of whom that support those terrorist organisations) within and and surrounded it's nation? Generally yes.

Now if both sides hate each other, it means that both sides desire each others destruction right?

Hence, Hezbollah's goal, just like the goal of the IDF is to destroy one another and the people they (arguably) represent. Both are fighting for survival, for power over one another. Im also sure, that generally, the Jewish people in the middleeast, (if it were magically possible) would want the complete disappearance of muslims in the area, just like Muslims would want the same for the Jews. The solution that must be fsought after is one where both muslims and jews want to live together in peace.

Painfull positions? sleep deprivation, loud music? wtf, from 1998?
Some of this stuff i've read the US government does aswell, and even some of the stuff my government does aswell.
Its not legal, but its tricks on how cops get the "truth outta you".
Cops in general use all kinds of sick tricks to get you to confess, considering that paranoid situation of terror, i'm guessing the cops work extra hard to prevent suicide bombings..
I also dont see any numbers in it, i read similar incidents in our newspapers on how the British cops shot that Brazilian running into the metro, does that make the Government comparable with terrorists?
Or the Dutch cops that out of paranoia raided the dutch-arabic family arresting several kids amongst others?
In fear of terrorism, society tends to fall down a slope a little, but its not even close to the group in which the terrorists themselves are.
Not only due to actions, but also methods and goals.
In simple:
-Israel as a nation sometimes uses questionable tactics to prevent daily suicide attempts and other terror on its people.
-Hamas and Hezbollah amongst other terrorist organisations, constantly tries to terrorize a nation with the purpose of eventually destroying it.

They slope, because governments, in the fear of terrorism, end up becoming more like them. They begin to become what they fear. If clear, rational and less emotional methods were sought after in dealing with terrorism, then it would be handled much more effectively. Isreal is unfortuneatly choosing to act on its fears and become more of a terrorist nation than a peaceful one.

By that same rationality:
We are terrorists.. and so are the Brits, the French and everybody else engaged in war.
Then i dont understand what the big deal is around terrorism, where would that fear come from, the brutality and inhumanity of the methods used often paralizing society.
It then all falls into the same book, where only numbers count => i give you, the effectiveness of 4th generation warfare.

It'll take ages quoting all your other stuff on 4th generation warfare, but you should know that I in no way support or think that kind of warfare is 'authorized'. What I mean by a natural resistance is that this kind of behaviour is expected by a population of people that have been supressed by isreali dominance in the region over decades. How else do you fight such a powerful army? You don't stop this behaviour by increasing your military dominance over the region, you infact increase this behaviour by doing that.

You could also conversly argue that Isrealie's response to hezbollahz recent kidnapping is an expected response after years of terrorism by terror organisations. The point that is clear and simple is that these methods of violence do not work, and because of this, and the horrors that these methods of voilence inflict on innocent people, they are completely unjustified.

After civil war between muslims and hindus in india after it's liberation from the british empire's rule, the muslims set up the independent state of pakistan. Ghandi, instead of denouncing the state of pakistan after what the muslims did to the hindus, gave it a large sum of money as a friendly gesture to pakistan. Why? Because if you do this, then Pakistan will have no reason to start hostilities, no reason to build up a nuclear arsenal and ultimeatly no reason to hate india.

Now ask yourself what method is more effective?


I apologize that i cant respond to your whole post, but Im in an awfully big rush.

 

[Ome_Vince]

-India and Pakistan are no friends to say the least, with recent terror attacks originating from Pakistan ( the one that killed hundreds the day i left Inda 11th of July).
Now, funny enough thats also about a relatively "small piece of land". Look how many skirmishes, small wars and scuffles these countries have had over this.

-I'm not debating the tactics of Israel. Lets make a clear distinction between the Palestinian case and the Lebanese case.
The Palestinians are in a big cycle of despair and violance. I support the Palestinians, but also have alot of critisism against them. When Israel gave back a piece of the Gaza strip, the rocket-launchers just shoved more to the west, along with none of the violance even decreasing a bit but at times intensifying.
Now how is this suppost to convince the Israeli's, who say they occupy in order to protect their people from "terror", to pull out more?
I'm not agreeing with the Israeli argument, dont get me wrong, i'm just saying that perhaps these Palestinian Organisations should be "a bit more smart" to say the least.

Hezbollah is a totally different situation. Its an alien organisation which actually would have been gone by now, if it wasnt pushed, funded, armed and trained by Iran. Up to such a degree that Lebanon cannot get rid of them without a Civil War, and "lets them be".
Hezbollah drags a nation into war that just wants to get on with its "life", and has no frustration and despair, into a war for its own political reasons, using the disputed Shebaa farms as an excuse.
They only have 14/128 of the parliament, when a few years ago 23.
Perhaps this attack was to strenghten their own political position who knows.
On top of that, their actions are often contrary to what Lebanon wants:
During the Cedar Revolution Lebanon demonstrated Syria should withdraw from its Lebanese occupation.
Hezbollah counter-demonstrated in support of Syria and its occupation (whom btw see Lebanon as "Greater Syria" and dont even recognise it)
This is but a small example of how Hezbollah is just another organ with its own political agenda regardless of what the nation wants.
It should completely disband and turn into a political party, and its civilian wing should be the focus, since that seems to be the only part that actually "does stuff" for society.