For all the ex-religious.

[Sheepo]

Well, what i was saying was ......

Oh, there it is, why don't you try reading what I wrote a couple more times before, you know, talking at me. No sense looking like more of a shit eater than you already are.

I'm not even sure you're trying to make sense.

yeah I mean faith, I'm bloody angry at the church, or at least the higher powers of the church, but like I said, I became Catholic because the spiritual beliefs (not the teachings and actions) of Catholicism Bring me closest to God.

So you stopped going to church?

 

[TheDude]

My god you're an ignorant wanker..



Urm, I did read the posts, and they failed to make sense, hence why, you know, I said they didn't? And its general practice to talk TO someone, not at them. And why exactly am I shit eater? Not my fault you can't create intelligent posts even if your life depended on it.

Please explain. Why am I an ignorant wanker? I can see you believe in god, and that is insane and delusional. I can tell myself that the cosmos are made from fairy dust and magic sprinkles, but you'd consider me insane cause that's delusional. I'm not going to call you ignorant, just misguided. You've been misguided your entire life. The problem is that there are billions more like you out there, tearing this world apart for their beliefs in an imaginary figure. And I accept your apology for calling me an ignorant wanker. No hard feelings.

On a side note, an interesting article from r/atheism.
It is generally common for atheists to consider that the arguments against religion boil down to science, the facts, debate, etc. It puzzles many why someone when faced with all the evidence for evolution for example would still choose to ignore it. I think that many atheists are ignoring the REAL issue, the true reason why it is hard for someone to reject their religion.
I was raised Christian all my life, in a VERY fundamentalist home. I was taught the earth was 6,000 years old created out of nothing, heaven, hell - the whole thing. I was taught how important it was to witness and attempt to "convert" others. I was taught that even bad things, really bad things, had some sort of divine reason and plan attached to them. I believed this into my early twenties.
When I was finally faced with the irrefutable facts, and raw science behind them, I let go - very reluctantly - of my cherished beliefs. It was not easy, It was like wrestling a priceless gem from someone who would just not let go of it.
When you reject religion, its not like - rejecting the earth is not flat for example. With something like this you can say "Oh ok, now I know" - but religion has a much darker and deep rooted hold on a person, and a much more profound effect.
There were times I was actually in tears thinking about the fact that there was no "afterlife" - and that those I had loved who had died - were really dead. They weren't watching me, or having some hand in guiding me. They didn't still "love me". That was pretty depressing.
It is strange how religion gives you a way to reject the reality of death - which I guess does help to 'ease your suffering', that you "know they went to a better place" - but it also prevents proper mourning. When someone you love dies, and they tell you on their death bed that they will see you one day in heaven, you are more prepared for them to "die" because you know they aren't really "dead".
To reject heaven and accept atheism - is not merely about science, facts, beliefs, etc - it is about accepting the reality of all those who have died - being really dead. It is accepting the same reality about everyone you love NOW one day being - really dead. It is accepting the same reality about YOU one day.
The older you are, the more dear loved ones have passed away, the harder it will be to reject the notions of religion. To reject religion requires the re-mourning of everyone who you love who has died.
Death is just one piece of a very complex puzzle. If you have spent your whole life "living by faith" - and you have made decisions "by faith" that have resulted in really bad situations in your life, you now have to own up to the fact that these situations came about because of YOUR choices. You do not have God to take the burden of this. You can no longer say "This happened because God has some plan for my life"
By rejecting religion, you must also reject the notion that you can avoid responsibility for poor life situations. That too is a hard pill to swallow.
Next, you must reject the idea that your path is somehow guided, that God is walking with you, that you are not truly alone as you walk through life. Imagine a man walking through a room on planks of wood suspended over spikes with large holes to fall in if you take a wrong step. He always manages to take the right next step, but he is never afraid because he "knows" that this is a solid wood floor he is walking on. Now turn on the lights.
To reject religion means to accept the idea that you CAN fall - and fall HARD. It means you have to recognize that up until now you have been fortunate - but now you have to force yourself to think about your next steps.
If you have been spending your life "following Christ", or witnessing to people, to the extent of even studying this in college, or spending hundreds and hundreds of hours reading and studying the Bible, praying, etc - only to find out that ALL of it was utterly and totally useless, then you have another hard pill to swallow. Imagine swallowing that pill as an older person.
To accept this means to accept that you have lived a large part of your life in vain, while thinking it was purposeful. Talking to such a person about atheism is similar to telling them that their whole life is without purpose, misguided, and that they have missed out on the only opportunity they will ever have to live life.
Surely one can then see why the concept of atheism is offensive and infuriating to so many people.
Then there is the concept of a personal relationship with God. The idea that God and you are "friends". That you are somehow "above the world". That you are living in a bubble safe and protected by God himself.
To reject religion, means accepting that you are just like everyone else - and in fact, worse off than most and behind the race because of your past religious belief. To someone who has spent a lifetime believing they are special in this regard, a piece of them is gone, never to return.
Worse than this, such a person values their imaginary relationship with God more than any aspect of their REAL personality. Who you really are takes second stage to your supposed relationship with the almighty.
Rejecting this is surely very difficult, as it entails rejecting a large part of the perceived value someone has in themselves.
I know I have not covered it all, but I hope I have helped to show that there is more to the picture of "religion vs atheism" than merely science, and facts.
The emotional side of religion is by far a larger and darker obstacle than any other that would stand in the way between someone's freedom from delusion and accepting reality.

 

[Solaris]

JESUS CHRIST BETTER MANNERS AND PARAGRAPHS PLEASE PEOPLE

capitalwizard

 

[Kaptain H]

There were times I was actually in tears thinking about the fact that there was no "afterlife" - and that those I had loved who had died - were really dead. They weren't watching me, or having some hand in guiding me. They didn't still "love me". That was pretty depressing.
It is strange how religion gives you a way to reject the reality of death - which I guess does help to 'ease your suffering', that you "know they went to a better place" - but it also prevents proper mourning. When someone you love dies, and they tell you on their death bed that they will see you one day in heaven, you are more prepared for them to "die" because you know they aren't really "dead".

Interesting point. My situation was similar, but the complete opposite, in a way. When I was little, my grandmother used to tell my sister and me that if my father "didn't start going to church and believing in God", he would be in Hell when we died and we would never see him again. That really terrified me, and situations like these probably had a hand in me rejecting religion at an early age. I didn't want to believe the things that my religion said.

 

[Noodle]

Yeah, most of you ex-religious folk were all driven away by literalists and fundamentalists. Literalists are just naive and ignorant, and fundamentalists... well, yeah.

Please stop with the over-generalization.

 

[TheDude]

Yeah, most of you ex-religious folk were all driven away by literalists and fundamentalists. Literalists are just naive and ignorant, and fundamentalists... well, yeah.

Please stop with the over-generalization.

There's a lot of generalizing on both sides of the fence. But at the end of the day, from my perspective, religion and God are crippling humanity's potential. Question to you noodle: do you believe in an afterlife? If you do, what is it you believe about it? What do you have to do to attain that afterlife? Do you see this world as temporary and passing, and just an intermediate to the next? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just curious.

 

[Noodle]

There's a lot of generalizing on both sides of the fence. But at the end of the day, from my perspective, religion and God are crippling humanity's potential. Question to you noodle: do you believe in an afterlife? If you do, what is it you believe about it? What do you have to do to attain that afterlife? Do you see this world as temporary and passing, and just an intermediate to the next? I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just curious.

I believe that my consciousness will move on after my body has ceased to function. I believe that there will be a sense of justice where the moral and immoral face a judgment. If that judgment is final, I can't say. All I have to do to reach the afterlife is die. What happens after my death is not my priority at the moment. Until I die, this life is.

I believe this life is all I have and all I will have until I die, and that I would be disappointing God or whatever creator for not making the most of this life. I was given this life, and quite frankly, I'm more motivated by my faith to make the most of life than I would be by the reality of my consciousness' finite existence.

Unfortunately, many other religious people don't see it that way.

 

[TheDude]

I believe that my consciousness will move on after my body has ceased to function. I believe that there will be a sense of justice where the moral and immoral face a judgment. If that judgment is final, I can't say. All I have to do to reach the afterlife is die. What happens after my death is not my priority at the moment. Until I die, this life is.

I believe this life is all I have and all I will have until I die, and that I would be disappointing God or whatever creator for not making the most of this life. I was given this life, and quite frankly, I'm more motivated by my faith to make the most of life than I would be by the reality of my consciousness' finite existence.

Unfortunately, many other religious people don't see it that way.

How do you know if you deserve that afterlife? What set of guideline do you follow?

 

[Absinthe]

Yeah, most of you ex-religious folk were all driven away by literalists and fundamentalists. Literalists are just naive and ignorant, and fundamentalists... well, yeah.

Please stop with the over-generalization.

Such people have certainly further repelled me from religion, but I'm not sure how many would say it's the primary reason for their leaving the fold. I'd say I was an atheist before I really even began to take notice of what I see as dysfunction in religious faith.

The heart of my atheism lies with a lack of evidence for gods, throwing it in the same boat with other superstitious claims. I certainly went through the motions of it for a lot of my younger years, but I eventually realized that's all it was. I believed in God because, hey, that's what everybody else does. I probably never really did.

It took a few years after my "conversion" that my opinion towards religion actually grew some teeth. :\

 

[Noodle]

How do you know if you deserve that afterlife? What set of guideline do you follow?

I don't really see that there is a literal set of guidelines for entry into a specific, physical place somewhere beyond, but by religious vviews pretty much tell me this.

-Don't be a dick.
-Don't be immoral.
-The pursuit of happiness is moral if it bring no direct harm to any life.
-Understand that life, including mine, is sacred.

If I'm wrong, then whoops. Like I said, I don't let my religion oppress and control my life. I let it remind me what my life is worth (a lot).

Edit: And I don't believe that because of fear of a higher judgment. That is my sense of morality for this life, I simply came to that morality through my religion.

Such people have certainly further repelled me from religion, but I'm not sure how many would say it's the primary reason for their leaving the fold. I'd say I was an atheist before I really even began to take notice of what I see as dysfunction in religious faith.

The heart of my atheism lies with a lack of evidence for gods, throwing it in the same boat with other superstitious claims. I certainly went through the motions of it for a lot of my younger years, but I eventually realized that's all it was. I believed in God because, hey, that's what everybody else does. I probably never really did.

It took a few years after my "conversion" that my opinion towards religion actually grew some teeth. :\

Well, there's a difference between believing in a literal physical presence in the sky and believing in a spiritual sense of it. It's like believing in Santa Claus versus believing in the spirit of giving.

Frankly, I have as more anger towards biblical literalists than I do any atheist.

 

[VirusType2]

Just never believed any of it, despite having pretty religious parents.

 

[Absinthe]

P9'[

-Don't be immoral.

Everybody has their own view on morality. There are many crimes you and I would be aghast at, but the perpetrator may believe himself to have acted in a wholly moral manner. You could attribute that to psychological disorder if you want, but if he is truly following the words of a god, can you really blame him?

It's easy to say "Just be moral" when people like you and I talk about simple, general matters like rape and murder. But there is a far more divided landscape on issues like homosexuality, abortion, social tolerance of other faiths, child punishment, rights of women, and so forth. We may criticize the more abhorrent views, but it's all kind of invalid if we assume that books like the Bible or Koran are actually credible.

Well, there's a difference between believing in a literal physical presence in the sky and believing in a spiritual sense of it. It's like believing in Santa Claus versus believing in the spirit of giving.

The spirit of giving is a concept very different from the spirit of Holy Jesus or whatever you're talking about. Physical, immaterial, it doesn't matter. You believe in a intelligent life that exists on its own as a part of or outside the universe. That or you're reducing it into vagueness like "God is love and happiness" or something equally meaningless. Besides, I'm pretty sure that's not the kind of god we're talking about here.

 

[Noodle]

Everybody has their own view on morality. There are many crimes you and I would be aghast at, but the perpetrator may believe himself to have acted in a wholly moral manner. You could attribute that to psychological disorder if you want, but if he is truly following the words of a god, can you really blame him?

It's fine to use general vernacular like "Just be moral" when people like you and I talk about simple concepts like rape and murder. But there is a far more divided landscape on issues like homosexuality, abortion, social tolerance of other faiths, child punishment, rights of women, and so forth. We may criticize the more abhorrent views, but it's all kind of invalid if we assume that books like the Bible or Koran are actually credible.

The subjectivity of certain moral issues is a different matter. When I say that... I should have included the word "intentional". Don't do something if you know it's wrong.

Really, these are the morals for my life. I don't expect everyone else to follow my morality.

The spirit of giving is a concept very different from the spirit of Holy Jesus or whatever you're talking about. Physical, immaterial, it doesn't matter. You believe in a intelligent life that exists on its own as a part of or outside the universe.

Again, too literal. Even calling it "intelligent life" is literal within our definition of that phrase. I believe in a higher presence and creator, for all I know it exists within the 10th dimension we can't perceive. I call it God. I pretty much give that name to what things in life I can not directly experience within the bounds of my mortality.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh, but of course. There's always a catch.

"It's all around and us and present in everything! ...but you can't see or touch it."
"God watches us, judges us, and has communicated a message on how to live our lives!... but he's not intelligent the way you think."
"He is beyond my mortal comprehension and understanding... but I'm pretty sure he's there."

"God is a thing!... but he's NOT!"

So you basically reduced God to some New Age spiritualism. That's good and totally harmless, you can't expect me to take it seriously. Not that you may have wanted me to, but I'm sure you can understand the irritation of non-theists when this kind of thinking is used as a platform for social change or - god forbid - legislation.

 

[VirusType2]

I'm kind of spiritual. More so than anyone else I know. I'm amazed by all of this. The chemistry, the properties of liquids and metals, the physics, but most of all: life.

But religion.

The rules of modern religion are downright ridiculous.

If I move air in a certain way, forming what we know as a word with my lips, if it sounds a certain way, somehow that angers him and tempts him to smite me to a torture chamber for eternity. Talking to him every night before going to bed to ask for his favor.

It's woah. Zoom the **** out. Look at this big picture instead. We are here because it is possible for us to be. That's all there is to it.


On July 16, 2186, there will be a 7 minute Solar Eclipse; the longest for 5,000 years. There are roughly 200 billion stars - not unlike the Sun - in our galaxy alone. This is what I believe in. Science.

 

[TheDude]

Does anyone else consider religion the greatest hinderance to our progress as a species? Even the concept of god blinds us from seeing the truths in life. If I'm wrong, than may God strike Noodle down. I dare him to if he exists. Go ahead God. Strike Noodle down with all your "might."

 

[Acepilotf14]

Does anyone else consider religion the greatest hinderance to our progress as a species? Even the concept of god blinds us from seeing the truths in life. If I'm wrong, than may God strike Noodle down. I dare him to if he exists. Go ahead God. Strike Noodle down with all your "might."

Thing is, back before the modern conveniences, Religion was one of the best things to live on for the next day. Without it, we may not have had the same determination we did to survive. There was a reason the first settlers of America, people out to make a quick profit, failed miserably, while the Quakers were inherently successful in founding their towns and surviving the winter.

Unfortunately, in these modern times, we no longer need that kind of determination, and old tradition holds us back when we could be moving forward. You could say we socially evolved out of tradition and theology, in a way.

Religion was used to back up theocracies and keep people in line. It is a massively successful crowd-controller, to this day still. If you ever go to Africa and want to take over a tribe, just convince them you're a God or a prophet.

 

[Noodle]

Social change in the name of religion, these days anyway, is unnecessary. But aside from fringe radicals committing violent acts, it's not hindering our progress as a species. Take the stick out of your ass, please. You remind me of those people that get all pissed off when someone says "bless you" if you sneeze. Political correctness is harming us more than religion.

Actually, lack of respect for individualism is harming us the most, but that's a different topic.

 

[TheDude]

Social change in the name of religion, these days anyway, is unnecessary. But aside from fringe radicals committing violent acts, it's not hindering our progress as a species. Take the stick out of your ass, please. You remind me of those people that get all pissed off when someone says "bless you" if you sneeze. Political correctness is harming us more than religion.

Actually, lack of respect for individualism is harming us the most, but that's a different topic.

You're generalizing and making conjectures. Give me some proof for your beliefs and maybe I'll listen to you. Honestly, I'm finding it harder and harder to respect you as a human being when you say that you believe in a god. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but that's the light I see you in. There are 6 billion people in the world who believe the same bullshit you believe, and its hindering our progress. When women in the middle east have to live in bags, its hindering us. When Christianity proclaims triumphantly that homosexuality is a sin, it hinders us. When Christianity stands against scientific research into embryonic stem cell research, it hinders us. When a woman can't choose to abort a clump of cells from developing in to another 1/6 billion people, it hinders us. When Christianity triumphantly stands against condom use in africa, it hinders us. When 70% of Lebanese Muslims proclaim that suicide bombing is justified, it hinders us. My head is firmly out of my ass sir. And I resent that you generalize your morals and think they are correct because you know there's a god. I am progress. I am reason. And when you stand in my way, I am your enemy. I don't have time for your beliefs to interfere with my science and progress. Either shut the **** up or get out of the way. Cause you're gonna get trampled.

And get some god damn perspective on the issue before you stand against it: http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html

 

[Noodle]

You're generalizing and making conjectures. Give me some proof for your beliefs and maybe I'll listen to you. Honestly, I'm finding it harder and harder to respect you as a human being when you say that you believe in a god. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but that's the light I see you in.

When you judge a man by his individual thoughts and not his actions you are, in fact, being an ass hole. An illogical one at that.

And I resent that you generalize your morals and think they are correct because you know there's a god. I am progress. I am reason. And when you stand in my way, I am your enemy. I don't have time for your beliefs to interfere with my science and progress. Either shut the **** up or get out of the way. Cause you're gonna get trampled.

How am I generalizing my morals? I just said that morals are different for individuals. I have never personally done anything to stand in your way, and again, you are assuming that I believe the same damn things as every other religious person. You are the one generalizing.

What's hindering society is the sheer stupidity that causes one person to judge another entirely based on a collective classification, with complete disregard for the fact that each individual is a separate entity capable of separate thoughts. You're no better than the racists and misogynists of previous years.

And get some god damn perspective on the issue before you stand against it: http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html

Nice.

Your responses have indicated you have no clue what I'm actually standing against.

 

[TheDude]

No I don't. The only thing I see is that religion and irrational belief in God are delusional. You are delusional. You have no basis for your belief. That is delusional. Your opinions are as relevant as the opinions of a starfish. I don't trust you. You are religious.

EDIT:
And when you say that political correctness harms us more than religion, you are right. Its our Political correctness in respecting religion that's hurting us. Its time to drag your irrational and delusional beliefs into public and see if they can stand up to the light of rationality. **** political correctness. I think you are a moron for believing what you do.

 

[Noodle]

No I don't. The only thing I see is that religion and irrational belief in God are delusional. You are delusional. You have no basis for your belief. That is delusional. Your opinions are as relevant as the opinions of a starfish. I don't trust you. You are religious.

/facepalm

 

[TheDude]

/facepalm

And its your snooty, pretentious, condescending responses that embody everything that you are. If you are religious, I'm glad that I stand against you.

 

[Escaep]

And its your snooty, pretentious, condescending responses that embody everything that you are.

Ironic.

 

[kineaesth]

I read somewhere that when you're having a debate it's generally not considered good form to insult the other person

Pfft but what did that book know, call each other names as much as you like!

 

[Noodle]

I read somewhere that when you're having a debate it's generally not considered good form to insult the other person

Pfft but what did that book know, call each other names as much as you like!

But Daddy, he started it!

Joking. This thread was going good up until a certain point.

 

[Acepilotf14]

This thread was not good at all.

No religion threads are good. Ever.

 

[Absinthe]

There was that one.

 

[Stigmata]

There was one where, months after the fact, I got a PM from some guy stating how I was right and I had actually caused him to decry Catholicism and become an agnostic. That's the only one I would call a success.

 

[Absinthe]

Only an agnostic?

You have failed Dawkins for the last time.

 

[Wanted Bob]

I wondered why this thread was still getting replies, then I remembered its a thread about religion :|

 

[Dynasty]

Tell that to the united states. You can't get elected in this country w/o proclaiming a diety of some sort. We had a black president, now we need an athiest president.

The yanks even have ''In God We Trust'' on their bank notes.

All this time people in the US have been searching for God and he's right there in your pocket!

 

[Shyam]

I read somewhere that when you're having a debate it's generally not considered good form to insult the other person

Pfft but what did that book know, call each other names as much as you like!

It's more fun this way.

 

[VirusType2]

The yanks even have ''In God We Trust'' on their bank notes.

All this time people in the US have been searching for God and he's right there in your pocket!

In God We Trust is the official motto of the United States


One possible origin of In God We Trust is the final stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner. Written in 1814 by Francis Scott Key (and later adopted as the U.S. national anthem), the song contains an early reference to a variation of the phrase: "...And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust'."


In God We Trust first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

IMAGE: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Two_cent_obverse.jpg

Use of the motto on circulating coinage is required by law.

The country of origin's currency should have the country's motto on it, sure.

Controversy:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Critics contend that the motto's placement on money constitutes the establishment of a religion or a church by the government. The Supreme Court has upheld the motto because it has "lost through rote repetition any significant religious content"[16]; so-called acts of "ceremonial deism" that have lost their "history, character, and context".

Outside of constitutional objections, President Theodore Roosevelt took issue with placing the motto on coinage as he considered it sacrilegious to put the name of God on money.

Changing the inscription would be complicated for many reasons, not the least of which is probably that all circulating US currency should have the same motto. Not only that, but a changeover would cost a lot of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust


History:

The motto In God We Trust was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the American Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout Christians throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize God on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Salmon P. Chase by Reverend M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridley Township, Pennsylvania

 

[Shift]

And its your snooty, pretentious, condescending responses that embody everything that you are. If you are religious, I'm glad that I stand against you.

Seriously?

 

[TheDude]

Seriously?

Seriously. I see religion as the greatest roadblock facing the progress of the world today. This life is fleeting away one second at a time. And the longer religion stands in the way of science, the shorter my life is going to be. I see religion as a force that robs people of their life. My life. And that pisses me off to no end. I am in the bible belt New Mexico, and to even proclaim your non-belief is enough to have you pretty well ostracized from any social event. We have billboards with evolution crossed out in favor of creationism; we have churches where the only title is "jesus saves." We have little signs up everywhere proclaiming that abortion is a sin. I don't apoligize for my intolerance of those who believe in god. I see the strangling grip of the delusional, insane notions every day and its starting to make me intolerant.

 

[Shift]

How exactly is it a roadblock? As far as I can see, technology is advancing just fine with religion a prospect in everyday life. Not mention there are some of the top scientists and doctors around the world, some of which I'm betting have made great contributions to science, who are theist.

 

[Noodle]

...and your holier-than-thou attitude of intolerance is pushing society forward?

 

[Acepilotf14]

holier-than-thou?

Oh man, that phrase.

 

[Noodle]

Oh man, that phrase.

I was being ironic.


...I think.