For anyone with questions as to why AA wasn't turned on in the videos...

[reever2]

Originally posted by Lifthz
ANd it IS suspicious because they just happen to be partners with ATI, and it so happens that the problem can have HOPE for ATI cards and not for Nvidia cards and they didn't say specifically why.

And its not suspicious to you that many games in the the way its meant to be played category have problems running on Ati cards? How come everything Nvidia has released that has a smidgen of CG in it has had terrible artifacts and errors with ati cards?

 

[Goddamn Freeman]

AA? the car insurers or alcoholic anonymous? i imagine they werent included for plot reasons.

 

[Apos]

Doom 3 uses some DX9,

In OpenGl? Cite please?

S.T.A.L.K.E.R is the first full DX9 game,

This shows you can repeat jargon without understanding it. What does it mean that it is "fully DX9"? So it doesn't require a windows install then? Lots of games have DX9 renderers, so does STALKER, big deal.

FarCry also uses some DX9.

No... FarCry uses DX9, period. You don't just use a "little of" DX9. DX9 is THE graphics library that you use if you system runs it or not. It replaces the earlier versions, hence the version #.

None of those games have the FSAA issue as far as I can tell.

Then again, where are the FSAA shots of those games?

So that's why I think it was bad decision, which is in turn bad programming if they KNEW this would happen. YOU sound like the fanboy.

First they're bad programmers if they didn't forsee it, now they're bad if they did?

As I pointed out, sometimes there are tradeoffs. You don't seem to even know what texturing can involve in order to be impressive, and I'm simply pointing out that you can't judge whether or not they picked the right choice until you see what they traded things off for. For all we know, Source's texturing system could, unlike other DX9 games that have no FSAA issues, support differently detailed textures all over the game (like a cracked sidewalk that doesn't repeat forumlaicially) and much more complex materials-based decals. But if you don't know this information, how can you judge accurately if they made the right decision or not?

ANd it IS suspicious because they just happen to be partners with ATI, and it so happens that the problem can have HOPE for ATI cards and not for Nvidia cards and they didn't say specifically why.

They are not anymore partners with ATI than they are with NVIDA.

Again, this is a real issue, known in the industry, that they are not making up. And ATI's hardware really does support a routine that NVIDA cards don't, that really could have some bearing on the issue. So what they are saying is perfectly plausible.

 

[Tropico]

I´m sure valve will patch it all up in the end maybe not out of the box but a few weeks later.
They dont want half the gaming community with a grudge against them

 

[GordN FreeLoadR]

Patch up ? ...Patch up what ? ...FSAA support ?

Here's how I read it. As VALVe has stated:

It's a problem for any app that packs small textures into larger textures.

The solution requires a video card that supports "Centroid Sampling" in hardware.

ATI 9500..9800 cards currently support this feature, but the Direct-X 9.0 API doesn't expose it, so VALVe's coders can't use it yet.

The current nVidia cards do not support "Centroid Sampling" in hardware, but the next generation of nVidia cards will.

Once Direct-X 9.1 ships with support for "Centroid Sampling", then a new ATI driver can enable it for 9500..9800 cards, and now you've got FSAA in Half-Life 2.

nVidia will require new cards that support "Centroid Sampling" in hardware, then they too can use FSAA with Half-Life 2.


G.F.

 

[mrchimp]

I'm still buying a FX 5900 it's almost £70 cheaper than the rad 9800 here in england and only marginally slower.

Plus on some dx9 benchmarks only 4xS AA mode works on Nvidia cards so it might just be able to work on HL2 as well (with some tweaking)

besides AA makes my head hurt, blures stuff i think even with texture sharpening on.

 

[Apos]

We really need to learn more about what exactly "packs small textures into larger textures" is, what the end result looks like, and what centroid sampling does to fix it.

 

[X-Vector]

I didn't know if I should post this or not, but here goes:

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=008072;p=4

According to a 3DR forum regular, his undisclosed source has attempted to shed some light on the issue:

>>>What advantage is gained by doing this packing?

Packing small textures into large textures reduces the number of context switches required between texture selections. On consumer grade hardware state changes are expensive and best avoided. Another advantage is it may enable more efficient use of texture memory.

>>>Did they know it was going to break FSAA

No - because it shouldn't. FSAA is the final stage in the pipeline, applied to the result of all previous fragment operations. By the look of it, the artifacts are being generated because texture mips are being sampled instead of fragments in the render pipe. That sounds suspiciously like the fault could be somewhere in Source's pixel shader source and is only being exposed by some weird bug in the FSAA feature.

 

[Guest]

Will the FSAA problem effect my DX8 card?

 

[GordN FreeLoadR]

Will the FSAA problem effect my DX8 card?

Only if you try to play HL2 with FSAA on.

Right now no video card can display HL2 with FSAA on.

It looks like FSAA should be fixed with the release of DirectX 9.1,
if your card supports "Centroid Sampling" in hardware. ( Currently it
appears that only ATI 9500..9800 cards support this feature. )


G.F.

 

[oMarKs]

sorry if this has been asked but, what is anti- alaising and FSAA?

 

[Lifthz]

It's the thing that removes jaggies, that's all you have to know.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by Apos
In OpenGl? Cite please?



This shows you can repeat jargon without understanding it. What does it mean that it is "fully DX9"? So it doesn't require a windows install then? Lots of games have DX9 renderers, so does STALKER, big deal.



No... FarCry uses DX9, period. You don't just use a "little of" DX9. DX9 is THE graphics library that you use if you system runs it or not. It replaces the earlier versions, hence the version #.



Then again, where are the FSAA shots of those games?



First they're bad programmers if they didn't forsee it, now they're bad if they did?

As I pointed out, sometimes there are tradeoffs. You don't seem to even know what texturing can involve in order to be impressive, and I'm simply pointing out that you can't judge whether or not they picked the right choice until you see what they traded things off for. For all we know, Source's texturing system could, unlike other DX9 games that have no FSAA issues, support differently detailed textures all over the game (like a cracked sidewalk that doesn't repeat forumlaicially) and much more complex materials-based decals. But if you don't know this information, how can you judge accurately if they made the right decision or not?



They are not anymore partners with ATI than they are with NVIDA.

Again, this is a real issue, known in the industry, that they are not making up. And ATI's hardware really does support a routine that NVIDA cards don't, that really could have some bearing on the issue. So what they are saying is perfectly plausible.

Doom 3 is using the Open GL API, that doesn't mean that it is not based on Direct X technology. Direct3d is only a translater between the card and the Windows software... the majority of the same exact effects are still possible in the Open GL API. Camrack seems to like the OpenGL API better because it has certain advantages over running a game in Direct 3D.

You don't get it. S.T.A.L.K.E.R is the first FULL Direct X 9 game, it is using EVERY SINGLE KNOWN FEATURE of Direct X 9 in the engine in the DX9 render. They completely seperated the DX9 and DX7/8 renders of S.T.A.L.K.E.R, it's basically like 2 engine...

Other games are not doing this because their engine is based on DX7/8 technology (they ALL started development 3+ years ago for god sakes...DX9 didn't exist then...), but it contains some DX9 in them (some more than others). So that's why I said Far Cry uses SOME, Doom 3 uses SOME, Half-Life 2 uses SOME (perhaps more than Doom 3 or FarCry though).

 

[Falcon(Nate)]

I have heard speculation that John Carmack talked about having to fix AA problems in his latest .plan update. However, after a search for the .plan I have come up empty handed. If anybody can find it, please post a link (if it actually exists).

 

[lifebringer]

Originally posted by Lifthz
Either way, the game should still be amazing. However, everyone kinda thought Half-Life 2 has the best graphics ever. Seems like dissappointment in that regard is setting in.

ummmm.....who said anything about hl2 having the best graphics ever? NOBODY has said that, and I haven't seen that ANYWHERE. i have no doubt hl2 will have unbelievable graphics (as well as faces/humans, physics, and AI), but I wouldn't be surprised if Doom III's graphics are just a pinch better.

but do graphics make a game? no. graphics are great, but i'd rather have graphics that look a tad junker on a much funner game. doom 3 graphics, doom 3 graphics, doom 3 graphics, that's all you ever hear. you never hear anything about hl2 graphics, and although i'm sure the graphics will be nothing short of amazing, the GAME AS A WHOLE is what's going to rock our worlds.

wooooooooooooooooooo gotta get a new comp!

 

[Apos]

Doom 3 is using the Open GL API, that doesn't mean that it is not based on Direct X technology.

Actually, that's exactly what it means. Both are different and competing graphics libraries, one developed by SGI, the other by Microsoft. They work differently at some pretty basic levels (one reason Carmack is such a support of OpenGl is precisely because he thinks it does things the most correct way, in his estimation), and while (like in HL1) you can build renderers for either library for one game, the two renderers are separate deals.

"Cite" means: provide some evidence for your claims. Where does it say that D3 uses DX9?

You don't get it. S.T.A.L.K.E.R is the first FULL Direct X 9 game, it is using EVERY SINGLE KNOWN FEATURE of Direct X 9 in the engine in the DX9 render.

Whoa: someone can sure quote a press release! The fact is, this is just a silly nonsense claim that means pretty much squat. DX is a graphics rendering library, not an irreprable choice of platform the way OpenGl vs. DirectX is, or PowerPC vs. Intel. When you run a game using DX9, you are running using a DX9 renderer. You can add any and all features you want from DX9 or even other places at any time you want. It's just a library, not a magical McGuffin.

 

[GordN FreeLoadR]

sorry if this has been asked but, what is anti- alaising and FSAA?

It's a graphical method of fooling the eye so that jagged lines in graphics
appear smoother. Graphics may also appear a little fuzzier ( but
less jaggy ) with anti-aliasing on.

Here's a link that demo's how this can be applied to graphical text:

http://www.weballey.net/webdesign/antialiasing.html


FSAA = Full Scene Anti-aliasing ( Anti-aliasing the whole game display )


G.F.

 

[Guest]

HL2 will have problems using FX cards. ATI is the best for enabling AA and FSAA....

 

[Bat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've read the entire thread to this point, and there seems to be something missing... I seem to remember a few conspiracist thoughts about the 'suspiciousness' of FSAA being broken on nVidia cards but possibly not on recent ATi cards, Valve being in bed with ATi, ATi using the Radeon 9800 to demonstrate H-L 2 at E3, etc. etc... to me, unless I've missed someone else's prior post to this effect, the reason seems rather obvious: Valve was one of the first, possibly the first major, developer to patch support for ATi's TruForm into their game engine. IIRC, N-patches have been in the Half-Life engine for a couple of years. The Source engine, and H-L 2, using/ relying so much on facial animations, realistic simulation of smooth musculature and so on, and the relative ease of N-patch implementation- plus possible lower costs in maintaining the code base for only one API- might also help account for the exclusive use of D3D this time around.

 

[Mountain Man]

However, everyone kinda thought Half-Life 2 has the best graphics ever. Seems like dissappointment in that regard is setting in.

Heck, I still think it's the one to beat. Doom III may have the better technology, but Half-Life 2 has superior graphics (keep in mind, graphics are more than just technology. It's how you use the technology that matters.)

 

[Guest]

Doom3 does have both tech and graphics but HL2 will terminate D3 because of its awesome environments and game play.

 

[Mountain Man]

Doom III has nice tech, but I think the actual graphics are shit, especially the textures and unaturally dark shadows. But then, that's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Apos
Actually, that's exactly what it means. Both are different and competing graphics libraries, one developed by SGI, the other by Microsoft. They work differently at some pretty basic levels (one reason Carmack is such a support of OpenGl is precisely because he thinks it does things the most correct way, in his estimation), and while (like in HL1) you can build renderers for either library for one game, the two renderers are separate deals.

"Cite" means: provide some evidence for your claims. Where does it say that D3 uses DX9?



Whoa: someone can sure quote a press release! The fact is, this is just a silly nonsense claim that means pretty much squat. DX is a graphics rendering library, not an irreprable choice of platform the way OpenGl vs. DirectX is, or PowerPC vs. Intel. When you run a game using DX9, you are running using a DX9 renderer. You can add any and all features you want from DX9 or even other places at any time you want. It's just a library, not a magical McGuffin.

Erm, no actually.

DirectX9 has much more than a rendering library. There is sound, net support etc. You can use portions of DX9 in a game without using the renderer.

The API interfaces allow you to start older versions of the components. This is why a DX8 game will work on a DX9 system.You can even use an old version of one component while using a newer version of another. So you can use "a little" of DX9 !

Packing small textures into large textures means exactly what it sounds like. You take a bunch of 32x32 textures and pack them into a 256x256 (this will fit 64). I should add that the DX9 SDK actually recommends packing textures like this for performance reasons!

You would then modify your texture addressing to source the smaller texture from the large one when applying to a polygon.

Presumably the FSAA screws up when it multi-samples at the edge of a texture (ie. between two of the smaller textures). You end up with the textures blended slightly and hence an "artifact" (ie. a glitch). This would most likely occur at polygon edges as this is typically where the texture edge is.

 

[Mountain Man]

^^^
That actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Guest]

I really wish Valve would send us a pic of HL2 with FSAA enables, just so we can see how bad it really is.

 

[Guest]

The highly-anticipated Half-Life 2 game will have a major bug with current DirectX 9.0 hardware resulting in impossibility in enabling Full-Scene Anti-Aliasing, a popular feature that dramatically improves image quality in games. Apparently, there is a limitation in DirectX 9.0 and/or DirectX 9.0-compliant hardware that will not allow the function to be enabled on certain graphics cards if the workaround is not found.

According a Valve officials quoted in forums at HalfLife2.net web-site, there are problems with the way that current hardware implements FSAA. If you enable it, you will see a lot of artifacts on polygon boundaries due to the way that current graphics processors sample texture subjects with FSAA enabled.

Valve continued that this is a problem for any application that packs small textures into larger textures. The small textures will bleed into each other if you have multi-sample FSAA enabled.

Currently both leading graphics chips designers use multi-sampling or hybrid multi-sampling + super-sampling methods to for FSAA.

The developers of the legendary Half-Life game said that drivers are not likely to solve the problem, however, it still can be solved for graphics cards based on VPUs from ATI Technologies, such as RADEON 9500-, 9600-, 9700- and 9800-series. As for NVIDIA GeForce and GeForce FX-series, there are practically no chances to find a workaround, according to Valve.

Some industry sources indicated that the problem with such FSAA is a known one and is to be addressed in DirectX 9.1 and next-generation graphics processors with Pixel Shaders 3.0 and Vertex Shaders 3.0, such as ATI Technologies’s code-named R420 and NVIDIA’s code-named NV40 VPUs and derivatives. Both next-generation products will come later than the Half-Life 2 that is expected to be available by October.

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by rollthedise
I really wish Valve would send us a pic of HL2 with FSAA enables, just so we can see how bad it really is.

And why would they want to do that?

 

[Guest]

lol

 

[Sorris]

News travels fast on the internet and I've seen this information on a few sites (which led me here). This is all well and good, but I'm not going to make any judgements are purchasing decisions based on this information which is still unconfirmed.

You remember nVidia's recent marketing ploy where they had an 'exclusive' test using the FX5900 on Doom3 with optimised drivers? Naturally the FX came out on top! Such an anticipated title like Doom3 can influence consumer purchasing decisions so iD should hang their head in shame that they didn't let ATI in on the party. I'm sure they were well paid..... or maybe it was revenge for the Doom3 leak.

Sorry qckbeam - but who are you? Could you be providing us with anti nVidia sentiment for ATI's gain? News like this can cost a company millions of dollars (and directly effect my next purchase as I'm about to buy a new card) so excuse my bluntness.

Anywho, if this information is true then thankyou for the heads-up but until I see it confirmed then I remain a sceptic.

Sorris

 

[Apos]

There is sound, net support etc. You can use portions of DX9 in a game without using the renderer.

Yes yes, but it is precisely the renderering functions that we are talking about.

The API interfaces allow you to start older versions of the components. This is why a DX8 game will work on a DX9 system.You can even use an old version of one component while using a newer version of another. So you can use "a little" of DX9!

DX9 is an update/replacement for the older API libraries, extending their functionality: that's why you can download DX9 whether or not you have a card that can take advantage of some of its more intensive features.

An engine can take advantage of the extra functionality or not, but nothing prevents you from doing so just because you started out designing in DX8. In short, it's plain silly to crow about some engine "fully" using DX9 (to begin with, why would anyone design a game by going through and making sure each and every functionality of DX9 is being used, when some are mutually exclusive and or unecessary in particular games?) when any engine can take advantage of DX9 functionality just as easily.

 

[Guest]

I don't care about FSAA at all...I've never played with it on, and probably never will. I was at my friends house and he ALWAYS uses FSAA, and to me it just made everything blurry, and gave me a headache.

 

[Mountain Man]

In short, it's plain silly to crow about some engine "fully" using DX9...when any engine can take advantage of DX9 functionality just as easily.

Welcome to the world of marketing, my friend, the same world where the Apple G5 is "The world's fastest personal computer!"

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Apos
Yes yes, but it is precisely the renderering functions that we are talking about.

Yes sorry that got confusing. The original marketing blurb that the argument was made from probably wasn't though. Ie. "Doom 3 uses some DX9" IIRC.

Originally posted by Apos
An engine can take advantage of the extra functionality or not, but nothing prevents you from doing so just because you started out designing in DX8.

Its not as simple as you imply. For example when M$ made the jump to DX8 they completely redesigned their 3d/2d interfaces. Had you started designing in DX7 you would likely have to rewrite large portions of your engine. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, just that it would be non-trivial.

Originally posted by Apos
In short, it's plain silly to crow about some engine "fully" using DX9

Yes I completely agree.

"You'll like dinner tonight, I used every ingredient in the house."

 

[CriticalBill11]

the fsaa issue with half life2

if you people would read around you may actually learn something. Technically this isnt a hardware problem, its a software problem, Directx 9.0 does have an issue with multi-sample fsaa. But, since the cards are built with directx9.0 fully in hardware, which means the problem therefore exists within the hardware as well and can't just be fixed with a simple solution. It is going to require a major workaround if all parties involved decide it is necessary, ati, valve etc.. Further statements from Valve that I have heard say that such a workaround however is not possible on older geforce, nor the new gffx line, the new gffx series uses a multi sampling and a super sampling hybrid which makes it totally impossible for a workaround supposedly. This is quite unfortunate news for us all, as we all have these high end dx9 parts for the fsaa. I am wondering though, they say the issue can cause textures to bleed on others or have anomalies around the mip planes causing undesirable effects. I also am pondering a statement that someone form valve supposedly made saying this is an issue or can be with all dx9 games. This is making me think this is all bs as I have noticed nothing in any dx9 game or demo with FSAA at any setting. And to think all this because someone on these forums asked why it appeared that the movies demoing half life 2 dont have FSAA. Only thing i have ever noticed similar to what they are describing as the issue that will appear are z-buffer errors from a distance causing strange texture artifacts. Well, have a great day. the end:bounce: :cheers:

 

[Mountain Man]

Re: the fsaa issue with half life2

Originally posted by CriticalBill11
I also am pondering a statement that someone form valve supposedly made saying this is an issue or can be with all dx9 games.

The key is texture packing, and as far as I know, Half-Life 2 is the first game to actually use this technique.

 

[headless1916]

...

Ever consider that many people's monitors can't DO 1600x1200 without resorting to disgustingly low refresh rates?

My monitor is a new syncmaster 763 and it won't even do 1600x1200 at any ****ing refresh rate. AA is my friend, and apparently HL2 hates me.

 

[qckbeam]

Well this is the final word on the FSAA issue from Gary:

The problem is specifically with multisample antialiasing on any card that uses multisample antialiasing. If you use supersampling you should be fine. Actually, this problem has existed for any game that uses light maps that are packed into a subrect (like Quake 3, etc). You will be able to turn FSAA if you like (in the control panel for your video card), but it's likely to have artifacts on triangle boundaries. We don't recommend turning multisample antialiasing on for cards that don't have centroid sampling. . .your mileage may vary.

Gary

 

[JackiePrice]

First of all, increasing the resolution slows your system down much more than FSAA does, AND it doesn't even help a tiny bit with the graphical quality that makes FSAA look so great in the first place.

Understand this:

800x600 w/4xFSAA is WAY better than 800x600 w/o FSAA
and
1600x1200 w/4xFSAA is WAY better than 1600x1200 w/o FSAA

The difference is just as pronounced, and just as impressive. The difference between an antialiased scene and one that has not been antialiased is just as pronounced a difference as hardware accelleration makes as opposed to software rendering. It's HUGE. The graphical quality is so much better with FSAA.

And for current ATI cards it's going to work with HL2.
For current nVIDIA cards...it's not going to work with HL2.

That is the unfortunate truth. Live with it, or upgrade.

 

[grambo]

Is there really any chance that current top end cards (9800 Pro, FX 5900 Ultra) are going to be remotely capable of running AA/Ansio on Half-Life 2 or Doom 3 at a decent frame rate? Personally I am skeptical at best. Maybe at 640x480.

Personally I find under 60fps to be unplayable in an fps game, especially if you are playing online against other people in a game where precision is very important (Quake3/RA3, Counter-Strike). I'd be surprised if either the 9800/5900 could muster over 50fps at 1024 with 4X AA/AS (purely judging from the videos in which you can see a slight slowdown during the street action scene when the marines sneak in behind the aliens who are shooting from behind the sheet metal type wall).

I'd be happy if these cards run HL2 decently at 1024 without any AA/AS. Personally I'm putting along with a Geforce 2 GTS on a P4 @ 3.2ghz with a gig of ram and forcing myself to wait until I have a copy of HL2 in my hand to buy a new card (and praying for a miracle that the next generation will make it out).

 

[grambo]

One thing that surprised me, isn't the implementation of anti-aliasing different between the GF3, GF4 and GF FX line of cards? I thought this problem would only affect the DX9 implementation on the FX series.