Fortress Forever Review

[Sui]

It's an exciting time for Team Fortress fans. With the recent releases of both the TF2 beta and Fortress Forever, you should feel spoilt for choice. Well we're not going to let choice spoil you! We want our community to stay fresh and unspoiled, so that when the harvest begins you'll be juicy and succulent! Therefore it is imperative that you read this review immediately. Our stomachs--- I mean, your lives may depend on it! [br] [br]

​

[br]
If you click the banner I'll personally reward you with cheese. [br] If you're interested in the Fortress Forever mod, visit their website.

 

[bigburpco]

The part with sexual innuendos was just brilliant.

 

[Mutley]

It needs more pictures to break up those walls of text.

 

[bigexplosions]

The review is not only very reflecting of my own opinions but it's also hilarious at the same time!

 

[Deleted member 56031]

Where's the cheese?

 

[Crispy]

The review was very Valve-slanted. The part about FF being worthless right now may have a pinch of truth to it as far as non-competitive players are concerned (which admittedly is the majority), but it's wholly unfair given that when work on FF began TF2 was thought dead and buried, the taboo death in the family that no-one in Valve dared to talk about, so the FF team was entirely right to go ahead and bring the genre forward to bring in new players. Also:

Little do they know, the original Team Fortress (TF) and the Valve-developed Team Fortress Classic (TFC) largely inspired many of the realistic, team-based games we play today.

Should be:

Little do they know, the original Team Fortress (TF) and the Valve-acquired Team Fortress Classic (TFC) largely inspired many of the realistic, team-based games we play today.

Valve barely did anything to TFC other than putting new models in and adding teleporters. Since TFC was brought into the Valve fold, nothing inspirational has been added, and TFC was already hugely popular before it was made available on Steam, so it's not like it massively increased its reach. So basically Valve bought the right to say "our games have inspired many of the realistic, team-based games we play today", which is kinda the way this review has set it out.

Overall it's a good review but it didn't mention many of the changes between TFC and FF (e.g. Spies reprogramming Sentry Guns, 'conc jumps' and 'bunny hopping' have been made easier for new players, grenades all have smaller damage radiuses to reduce the effectiveness of 'nade spamming', etc.). It was probably too hard on FF.

 

[Javert]

Should be:Valve barely did anything to TFC other than putting new models in and adding teleporters. So basically Valve bought the right to say "our games have inspired many of the realistic, team-based games we play today".

That's quite true. TF was originally a Quake mod that Valve brought over to expand their MP for Half-Life.

 

[Crispy]

TF was a Quake mod. TFC was a Half-Life mod... that Valve brought over to expand their MP for the Half-Life community.

 

[iconic-]

what a terrible review, it was decent until the last line when you decided that you SHOULD compare tf2 to ff... right after saying you shouldn't... yeah.

 

[Sui]

Crispy: I presumed Valve bought out the Quake mod and then proceeded to make their own version (TFC). I've played most of these games retrospectively, as I was 9 years old when TFC came out, so I don't know all the facts I'll get it changed.

Overall it's a good review but it didn't mention many of the changes between TFC and FF (e.g. Spies reprogramming Sentry Guns, 'conc jumps' and 'bunny hopping' have been made easier for new players, grenades all have smaller damage radiuses to reduce the effectiveness of 'nade spamming', etc.). It was probably too hard on FF.

I started writing a paragraph describing some of the changes, but they're all so minor I thought it was pretty useless cramming the review with descriptive observations when I could use the readers' time to explain how good the game is instead. I figured that anyone who actually remembers the "hitbox size" of the soldier's rocket launcher will easily pick up on the tweaks by either playing the game or reading the Wiki page, and anyone who doesn't remember likely won't care. This decision largely stems from my own experience of reading reviews and finding that two thirds of the writing is simply explaining the game's premise. It's the internet, not a magazine - readers can find out for themselves. They can't necessarily play it though, which is where I come in.

what a terrible review, it was decent until the last line when you decided that you SHOULD compare tf2 to ff... right after saying you shouldn't... yeah.

I didn't really mean to compare them, I just wanted to say that if you're not a TF / TFC fan there's not much point in even downloading FF. Unless of course you dislike TF2's art style, in which case you're a bastard and I hate you

[Edit] Oh yeah, and for the record, I resent being called "Valve-slanted". My opinions aren't influenced by the developers at all, simply on the quality of the game I'm playing. Had Fortress Forever been made by Valve and TF2 made by the developers of FF, the review would be identical.

 

[Shinobi]

nice job on the writing

it does suck that FF is kind of stuck in an odd situation RE:TF2 but at least for me there's room for both


(I'm a big Q:TF fan and TFC really didnt do it for me)

 

[trepid_jon]

I like to think our art "direction" is just based on TF as a whole, mostly including what the community has done. Which basically means anything and everything can be made, because it's more about gameplay in the end...and whatever the mappers want to do. People could make cartoon-like (TF2-like) maps for TFC, and they were still played and enjoyed. Same could happen for FF. Why make all of our maps have the same art style when our community maps most likely won't follow the styles we "setup" for them to use?

If you think back to TFC, there were certain maps with a fortress style (like 2fort and well), others with a more realistic setting (like hunted and dustbowl), and others with a credits style (like ff_2fort...wait, I don't think TFC had any credits style maps). Of course, then you had community maps that were all different styles. And since FF was formed from the community, I like to think that same kind of "anything goes" mentality exists.

I don't know if I explained it well, but yeah...the direction is based off of how the community didn't have any set style that everybody stuck with, which is why the FF maps range from fortress to realistic to fantasy...to whatever mappers feel like making.

communitittittytityty

 

[Ennui]

Valve made Team Fortress AND Team Fortress Classic, because the creators are Valve employees now, and the first published TF game was from Valve.

 

[Unfocused]

Looks like a good read, too tired to read it all right now, just skimmed through it. However the writing style is too... poetic(?) for a review IMHO.

I appreciate your mad writing skillz though.

 

[Zips]

Review wasn't too bad. But you guys need to include images and perhaps smaller but more paragraphs. It helps to break up large chunks of text.

 

[SlayeR1]

I like to think our art "direction" is just based on TF as a whole, mostly including what the community has done. Which basically means anything and everything can be made, because it's more about gameplay in the end...and whatever the mappers want to do.

...

If you think back to TFC, there were certain maps with a fortress style (like 2fort and well), others with a more realistic setting (like hunted and dustbowl), and others with a credits style (like ff_2fort...wait, I don't think TFC had any credits style maps). Of course, then you had community maps that were all different styles. And since FF was formed from the community, I like to think that same kind of "anything goes" mentality exists.

I don't know if I explained it well, but yeah...the direction is based off of how the community didn't have any set style that everybody stuck with, which is why the FF maps range from fortress to realistic to fantasy...to whatever mappers feel like making.

I agree with trepid_jon 100% TF was never a mod set in once place/environment. The days Quake:TF were the best and still are in my head, playing FF really brought me back to those days. The greatest thing about TF was always the community created content, from the 100's of maps of plane(1on1 square room), practical(2fort5,Rock,ect), and funny(soccer, boarder, conc/RJ, and what ever the map was to steal the other teams beer).

Valve made Team Fortress AND Team Fortress Classic, because the creators are Valve employees now, and the first published TF game was from Valve.

I understand what your saying, but Valve didn't enter the picture until after the release of TF 2.0 back in '96. So yeah "Valve-acquired"

 

[Shinobi]

The days Quake:TF were the best and still are in my head, "

yeah, they did manage to recapture that feeling.. down to the fact I realize I need to upgrade my system

 

[chilledsanity]

This is not a good review. It's oozing with bias, a condescending tone, and it contradicts itself. It criticizes the game for having good graphics, attacks gameplay elements that were native to TF or TFC in the first place, and had a mocking tone to it. He also says if there were no competing TF games, he would give a 9/10 and move on. As a person who plays a lot of old games, I believe a good game is a good game, regardless of what else is out there, same goes for a bad one. Finally, he says in the last sentence no less that TF2 is a far superior game and doesn't say any reason as to why aside from it not having bunny hopping.

I'd like to see someone review FF and TF2 who was already a fan of TF or TFC. I think that would be a lot more interesting than what's essentially hollow bashing.

 

[FriedchikenCamo]

Having played a little of Fortress Forever, I can say that the mod can probably find a separate niche from TF2. I just think it would take a little effort to recruit the hardcore TFC players into upgrading their rigs, but otherwise I think FF has a decent chance at surviving as a mod.

Considering that buying the Orange Box nets you multiple Source games, it also can't hurt new players to try out FF out of curiousity.

 

[Shinobi]

yeah, but I think valve needs a better system to get mods like FF more exposure so those people who bought orange box realise that the game FF even exists

too many source mods are suffering low player rates due to improper exposure and a less than unified community

 

[kupocake]

yeah, but I think valve needs a better system to get mods like FF more exposure so those people who bought orange box realise that the game FF even exists

too many source mods are suffering low player rates due to improper exposure and a less than unified community

Fortress Forever is second last only to Black Mesa on a list of mods Valve will never promote. Their employees made the original versions, and they have alternatives on the market that don't need the competition.

But apart from that, you're very right, and it is a shame that the hard work that went into Fortress Forever will go overlooked by many. It's a shame also that the very criticisms that the review has of the mod are ultimately 'features' invented / promoted to differentiate the mod from the true 'sequel'. It is interested to note though, that though many would consider the game a 'Half-Life 2' mod, it may just as easily be considered a 'Team Fortress 2' mod? That seems like an interesting angle to sell it from...

 

[Sui]

This is not a good review. It's oozing with bias, a condescending tone, and it contradicts itself. It criticizes the game for having good graphics, attacks gameplay elements that were native to TF or TFC in the first place, and had a mocking tone to it. He also says if there were no competing TF games, he would give a 9/10 and move on. As a person who plays a lot of old games, I believe a good game is a good game, regardless of what else is out there, same goes for a bad one. Finally, he says in the last sentence no less that TF2 is a far superior game and doesn't say any reason as to why aside from it not having bunny hopping.

I'd like to see someone review FF and TF2 who was already a fan of TF or TFC. I think that would be a lot more interesting than what's essentially hollow bashing.

Heh. I'll admit this isn't the best review I've written, mainly because I wasn't quite sure who I was aiming it at. The only way to write a perfect review would be to write three; one intended for TFC veterans, one for the casual gamer and then a general one which draws the two together. So I'll admit that it contradicts itself in a number of ways. However, I disagree with some of the things you said:

It criticizes the game for having good graphics

The game has "good graphics" in terms of its textures, and their detail / size. However, the whole point of that paragraph was to say that it looked bland as a whole, and if you look at it from this viewpoint, the game does not have "good graphics".

However, in retrospect, the paragraph was overly harsh. I'd tone it down a lot if I were to write the review again. I think this is the only paragraph where I'd agree with your comment that I was bias; I might not have admitted it at the time, but I was really comparing the graphics to TF2 in my head

I believe a good game is a good game, regardless of what else is out there,

I believe that also. However, if you ignore graphics completely; TF, TFC, FF and TF2 are almost identical games. They all have the same maps, classes and game modes, with only minor tweaks separating their gameplay. Therefore, if I were to completely ignore context, I could write a FF review that could easily be mistaken for a TF2 or a TFC review, with the exception of the "graphics" comments. I would be reviewing Team Fortress gameplay, NOT Fortress Forever as a mod. That wouldn't really be helpful to anyone...

It's kind of like reviewing a car which is identical to its predecessor except it has a different boot and a larger cigarette lighter. You could simply review the car in its entirety, ignoring "what else is out there", which would result in a review identical to the one you wrote about the previous car. But a much better way of reviewing it would be to describe the boot and the lighter, and explain to the reader whether these features actually make much of a difference.

Finally, he says in the last sentence no less that TF2 is a far superior game and doesn't say any reason as to why aside from it not having bunny hopping.

I only said TF2 was a better game if you're a TFC noob. If I completely wiped your memory and gave you TF2 and FF, I'm sure you'd prefer TF2. I could write a completely separate review explaining why, but Evo's already doing that. Also, I never said that bunny hopping was a bad thing. Bunny hopping is an old thing, and a hard thing. That part of the review was aimed entirely at new or casual gamers, who don't care about bunny hopping. I'm pretty sure if you gathered all the gamers on this site and asked them "do you bunny hop in games that let you?", the people who said "yes" would be more experienced gamers, whilst the ones who said "no" would be casual gamers. Therefore I was addressing the casual crowd by saying "if you're the sort of person who doesn't like bunny hopping"... etc.

Anyway, I think we've pretty much established that this is a bit of a crappy review. For that I apologise. Though in my defence, it was a bit of a deathtrap, as it's really hard to review something which is not only free but is also a faithful remake. If you say "It's just like TFC, it's amazing!" all the casual gamers will scorn you because they don't like TFC. If you say "it's awful and dated", TFC gamers will tell you your reviewing it wrong. By trying to strike a middle ground I pretty much screwed everything up. And yes, I do think the review strikes a middle ground, because the positive comments count for more as they are stated in capital letters

 

[=Coy0te=]

FF is only for the people who love old-skool game play and refuse to move on, for anyone else who likes to play games that don't feel like they're from the 90s TF2 is where its at. Also I agree with the art direction or lack there of. It's a horrible mishmash Hl2 and generic art and using the excuse "it's like TFC" is stupid because that had horrible art too but at least it had fresh game play when it was released. FF is basically dead.

 

[stereoxide]

Can I have my cheese now plz?

 

[markcocjin]

Stand by your opinions. You can never be a critic if you doubt yourself. Fortress Forever is a good sequel to Team Fortress which some would say the same thing for Team Fortress Classic making them parallel. It is unfortunate that Fortress Forever should find itself coming out in a world where Team Fortress 2 exists. You cannot compare a product redesigned for the future to a mod that pays homage to the classic. Do not fault a company who needs to compete with the likes of Halo, Battlefield, Crysis, Quake, Unreal or any other contender for the multiplayer world (coutnerstrike, I'm looking at you). They have huge pockets and a huge talent pool which even counts everyone at the mod community. Whatever it is they do, it benefits us all.

Fortress Forever bears the pedigree name and they have built and finished the game. If they want to be noticed and since nothing has been written in stone, they are still open to the next step in game development. Innovation. It's not a matter of thinking up of more player classes or weapons. When you're asked to invent something, the skybox is the limit. You're a mod and nobody tells you what to do. Once upon a time, a couple of guys decided to do something new with the Quake engine. I'm sure you can find yourself in the same situation right now. Or... it may very well be just an homage to a classic. Their move.

 

[Shinobi]

FF is only for the people who love old-skool game play and refuse to move on, for anyone else who likes to play games that don't feel like they're from the 90s TF2 is where its at. Also I agree with the art direction or lack there of. It's a horrible mishmash Hl2 and generic art and using the excuse "it's like TFC" is stupid because that had horrible art too but at least it had fresh game play when it was released. FF is basically dead.

old-skool gameplay? refusing to move on? maybe that's why games like UT3 are some of the most anticipated fpses to come out... old school game play defines UT (DM, CTF, even assualt)

not to mention you go on to praise TF2 which is basically a valve tweaked version of TF gameplay with a graphics makeover...

smh at you not being able to tell the difference between graphics and gameplay

 

[Shinobi]

the skybox is the limit.

LMAO :E:E:E

 

[=Coy0te=]

old-skool gameplay? refusing to move on? maybe that's why games like UT3 are some of the most anticipated fpses to come out... old school game play defines UT (DM, CTF, even assualt)

not to mention you go on to praise TF2 which is basically a valve tweaked version of TF gameplay with a graphics makeover...

smh at you not being able to tell the difference between graphics and gameplay

The games you have mentioned have added heaps of features, but FF is just TFC sped up in source, thats it.

There is a difference between oldskool and dated gameplay and FF is dated, as the server list shows. TF2 made the necessary changes to make it playable in 2007 (ie: removed gren spam, removed conc-jumps, no bunnyhoping or ridiculous physics etc as well as defining classes better) FF won't win over any new players which means their target audience is the stubborn TFC players who don't welcome any change in the first place.

 

[FriedchikenCamo]

Most people who have played TF:C and TF2 can see that the gameplay dynamics in TF2 are different in many ways. Valve didn't just say, oh, we are going to remove hand grenades, gimp the run speeds, and make the sniper unable to jump just to piss the fans off. It's a shame though that only people who have paid $45 to rebuy redundant games (HL2 & EP1) in the Orange Box can see the TF2 commentary, and hear Valve employees defend what design decisions they made.

And while it's debatable whether TF2 deserves the $30 price tag, TF2 definitely fields a different niche from the previous Team Fortresses.

But I think that Fortress Forever has an opportunity to fill a niche. There are many people angry about the changes in TF2 that the FF team has a good opportunity at making something greater than a remake.

Also, much like UT3, TF2 does not have to diverge wildly from it's roots to become a worthwhile purchase. Perhaps people are mad that it undertook development hell, or that the list price is a retardedly high $30 (I would have never considered the purchase w/o the Orange Box), but TF2 nails a lot of gameplay highs that few games reach these days.

But I definitely recommend that Valve launches a free weekend for TF2, since it's probably the only game in the Orange Box that could be used as a proper demo. Because I'll admit that the $45 leap of faith for 1 supposedly buggy game, 2 games the majority of the target audience has bought, and 2 unreleased games is a very unbalanced deal at the moment.

 

[bigburpco]

TF was a Quake mod. TFC was a Half-Life mod... that Valve brought over

TeamFortress Software was acquired by Valve before TFC was made.

 

[Crispy]

Heh. I'll admit this isn't the best review I've written, mainly because I wasn't quite sure who I was aiming it at. The only way to write a perfect review would be to write three; one intended for TFC veterans, one for the casual gamer and then a general one which draws the two together.

I have to agree. It is probably one of the hardest reviews to write right now given the three camp split.

Valve made Team Fortress AND Team Fortress Classic, because the creators are Valve employees now, and the first published TF game was from Valve.

That's like saying Lionhead made Theme Hospital because Peter Molyneux now works at Lionhead. Or that Microsoft made Goldeneye because MS bought out Rare...

TeamFortress Software was acquired by Valve before TFC was made.

Interesting, I never knew Valve released TFC as a mod. When I used to play it there was almost no mention of Valve owning it. I'm sure Doug Lombardi would have had something to say about that if he'd been around.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Interesting, I never knew Valve released TFC as a mod. When I used to play it there was almost no mention of Valve owning it. I'm sure Doug Lombardi would have had something to say about that if he'd been around.

Yep, it was definitely a Valve release.

 

[Kadayi]

Yep, it was definitely a Valve release.

QFT:-

The result was Team Fortress Classic, which was released in April 1999 as a free add-on with the 1.0.0.9 patch. So if you have a patched version of Half-Life, you already have TFC.

Source:-

http://planethalflife.gamespy.com/tfc/

Free, but not a Mod (Valve ..giving breaks even back then..). Debate over (the interweb..a great place for facts, facts fans)

Also nade spamming and bunny hopping do not a good accessible modern game make, and though the "hardcore" might bemoan the removal of these 'features' of TFC 'gameplay' from TF2 it frankly makes for a more fun gaming environment, which is fundamental to a games popularity and longevity. The dribble that constituted the active TFC player base up until now hardly falls under the definition of popular, more waning.

 

[Crispy]

'Modern gaming' is a misnomer in your context. By your argument CS: Source should be more popular than CS, as it is much more accessible. The truth is the skill required in CS makes the game, and it is still the version of choice for competitive play, which is a massive part of why CS is still so popular. It's an elite game, so it will be popular with elitists. The same applies for Fortress Forever (if it's deemed better than TFC at any stage), and the opposite applies to TF2, which is mindless fun.

 

[Kadayi]

'Modern gaming' is a misnomer in your context. By your argument CS: Source should be more popular than CS, as it is much more accessible. The truth is the skill required in CS makes the game, and it is still the version of choice for competitive play, which is a massive part of why CS is still so popular. It's an elite game, so it will be popular with elitists. The same applies for Fortress Forever (if it's deemed better than TFC at any stage), and the opposite applies to TF2, which is mindless fun.

I'm pretty sure that TF2 is a multi-platform game, and designed as such, so any comparisons to CS or CS:S are entirely moot. You misunderstand what I mean by accessible.

 

[chilledsanity]

The game has "good graphics" in terms of its textures, and their detail / size. However, the whole point of that paragraph was to say that it looked bland as a whole, and if you look at it from this viewpoint, the game does not have "good graphics".

I don't think it's any more bland than something like Counterstrike. And it does have good graphics compared to TFC. Plus if you don't care for the cartoon look of TF2, this is at the total other end of the spectrum, which some people prefer. You criticize using the gritty graphics without having any realism to the game, but I think in FF that looks better than ever. Maybe it's because they do look semi-realistic that I find the ragdoll physics of some guy flying off into the air so hilarious, whereas with a cartoon it's almost expected (but this is a very subjective thing I realize).

Also you call the game light-hearted, but I think only TF2 tries to give it that tone. The tone I got from TF is INSANITY! I finally got a chance to play TF2 and one of the biggest differences I noticed is how less crazy the action is. This isn't to say it's tame, but TFC/FF really hit some peaks on the action. Granted, I prefer to play only the push maps on FF (specifically dustbowl), but that's a perfect example to show how nuts the game is in terms of the sheer amount of combat going on. TF2 takes away grenades, bigger explosions, and detpacks, and adds invulnerability and spawn delays. This greatly reduces the amount of explosions, bodies, and carnage you'll see in the game. I think this goes beyond whether you're a TFC vet or not, I think it depends on whether you prefer gameplay like Call of Duty or more like Serious Sam. If you like over-the-top insanity in terms of the action, I think FF is the winner. The phrase I always used to use in describing dustbowl to people is "you pave the road with bodies". I've never played another game where you get the same number of explosions and shots per second in one place as you do as TFC/FF in dustbowl.

I only said TF2 was a better game if you're a TFC noob.

I guess I interpreted the wording differently than what you intended then, because here's the sentence:

Having played in the beta I can tell you that Team Fortress 2 is a bloody brilliant game, and as long as you’re not interested in training in the ancient oriental art of jumping like a rabbit (I’m sure most people reading this review don’t even know what I mean by that), then TF2 is a far superior game to both Team Fortress Classic and Fortress Forever.

The "as long as you're not interested in training in the ancient art of jumping like a rabbit" sounds sarcastic and mocking, which to me implied that you were saying that there is nothing making it better.

If you say "It's just like TFC, it's amazing!" all the casual gamers will scorn you because they don't like TFC. If you say "it's awful and dated", TFC gamers will tell you your reviewing it wrong. By trying to strike a middle ground I pretty much screwed everything up. And yes, I do think the review strikes a middle ground, because the positive comments count for more as they are stated in capital letters

Well you're naming two extremes, neither of which are true, so anything in between that would be middle ground. If I were writing this, I would state some of the differences between it and TFC (since there aren't a lot), then the differences between it and TF2 (which you didn't cover at all; aside from no bunny-hopping), then say some good and bad things about it. I reread your article and the only clear good thing you say about it is that the game is stable and runs smoothly.

Basically I see a lot of parallels between this and CS: Source. Both have very similar gameplay, graphical updates and reinterprations of the same maps (and in both cases on release anyway, not as many maps). In the case of FF it adds several features that TFC did not have, like cloaking, sentry hijacking, and a better HUD. It takes away teleporters, which is something TFC never had originally. The maps are more themed now and have much better graphics than the originals. Physics have been tweaked for faster gameplay and there has been some class balance (like the pyro). It is harder for beginners to get into than TF2 and doesn't have the same graphics polish that it has, though I think the maps looks excellent on their own. TF2 has slightly slower gameplay (though nothing like CS slow) and lots of little touches to it, whereas FF is more a mod through and through. Overall FF sticks very closely to the original TF and TFC formula and includes better graphics and minor gameplay changes that the developers saw fit. It won't replace TFC for everybody, but then neither has CS:S.

 

[Kadayi]

The "as long as you're not interested in training in the ancient art of jumping like a rabbit" sounds sarcastic and mocking, which to me implied that you were saying that there is nothing making it better.

Makes perfect sense to me. Bunny hopping was never an intended game play strategy, it was just merely something players developed themselves in the same way as rocket jumping. However rocket jumping has redeeming merits where as bunny hopping is just basically annoyingly lame, and the only reason people do it is because other people did it before them. Fact of the matter is, it takes time to learn and master and that just doesn't serve any great purpose if you want to make a game which appeals to a wider audience. If you want to capture peoples attention and maintain it you have to deliver games with a simple learning curve. Despite introducing several friends to CS, very few of them have ever stuck with it, because the learning curve was too steep for them to master and most lacked the perseverance to stick with it and do so. Despite it's apparent popularity, undoubtedly far more people have given up on CS than stuck with it.

 

[Crispy]

Yes, but bunny hopping in FF is just 'pressing jump before you land', just like in Q3: Arena. It's actually easier than the bunny hopping in HL2DM, that is to say it's incredibly easy. The tricky part comes when you try to combine that with high-speed boosts from conc jumping (which is also incredibly easy; the simplified conc jump is just holding down the grenade in your hand and jumping at the right time).

Anyway to go back to the graphics debate. The visuals are definitely not FF's strongpoint. Several weapons are missing reload animations (and sounds, for that matter), some of the models could look at home in a HL shooter mod (the scout shotgun for one). But this is probably the trade-off for an early release, and an earlier release was definitely the right decision, because essentially all the gameplay is there - the cosmetics can follow later.

 

[Kadayi]

Yes, but bunny hopping in FF is just 'pressing jump before you land', just like in Q3: Arena. It's actually easier than the bunny hopping in HL2DM, that is to say it's incredibly easy. The tricky part comes when you try to combine that with high-speed boosts from conc jumping (which is also incredibly easy; the simplified conc jump is just holding down the grenade in your hand and jumping at the right time).

Much like watching a lady getting out of the car, sometimes you see it and sometimes you don't, and you quite clearly don't.

 

[Crispy]

I guess you only see it if you make a concerted effort to look for it. My point is really that the 'technical play' in Fortress Forever isn't that hard to master compared to TFC or NS or even fulfilling specialist roles in BF and RO.

My brother is completely on the other side of the fence to me, I prefer 'hardcore' gameplay he prefers just playing casually and isn't really bothered about Kills to Deaths and winning and so on, so long as he has fun. He prefers Fortress Forever because he thinks it's more 'fun' even if TF2 is better 'quality'. I think I probably just about prefer TF2 because the gameplay is more solid; the classes are generally well balanced and work well being fairly interdependant, the weapons offer more variety than FF and are also balanced well, finally the maps seem pretty well balanced. My only major gripe with TF2 is that it doesn't have enough depth to it to make me want to play it for any significant length of time. Although I've put in 14 hours in 4 days (2 of which I was working), looking to the future months I find it hard to imagine me putting as much time into it as I have done with TFC, CS and NS.