Fox news is crazy
- Thread starter clarky003
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Conservative bias is worse than liberal bias... I really wish I could agree with that while I think about BBC's reporter Barbara Plett crying as Arafat was airlifted out of the Muqata when sick. Don't make me start digging up countless examples, because I can bring them down to the level you see Fox News on easily.
Absinthe
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If I recall correctly, the BBC admitted that the coverage was impartial, and apologized for it.
You confuse the bias of individual reporters with the bias of an agenda. The BBC's reporters can certainly have their own opinions that bleed through into their coverage, but this is not indicative of systematic spin. On the other hand, Rupert Murdoch has expressed numerous times that he does have an agenda, that he does try to spin information his way, and that Fox News is a conservative news station. The italics emphasize that it is essentially a network with conservative spin in order to appeal to their audience and distort information. The moment you start defining your news with a political slant, it stops being objective. Stories are warped right from the get-go because that is practically the ****ing mission statement for Fox. Fox News is inherently biased at its core because of the way it was conceived to begin with.
In any case, go ahead and feel free to supply examples of BBC bias equivalent to that of Fox News.
Fox News is better in the way that it admits bias, while the BBC largely turns a blind eye. Bias of reporters is not BBC's biggest problem. The BBC has a long history of half-assed apologies and biased, one-sided reporting, not only through their in-the-field "stringers", but in their general coverage. And it's not just the Middle-East. I believe this blog has over 5 years of covered BBC bias - http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
Most condemning of all is the fact that they sued to keep suppressed a report critical of their Middle-East coverage: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/15/nbeeb15.xml
Most condemning of all is the fact that they sued to keep suppressed a report critical of their Middle-East coverage: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/15/nbeeb15.xml
Kadayi
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I've always found the BBC reporting of the universally decreed (United Mations) illegal occupation and gradual colonisation of the Palestinian territories by the Israeli government fairly objective (what is it 40 years now..of illegal occupation..). Where as if you watch reporting on events on Fox, it's almost as if there was nothing illegal about it.... :dozey:
*waits for Pro Israeli forum apologists/plants to post up any or all of the following:-
* The UN is evil/hotbed of Islamofascists etc. So their democratic opinions count for nothing (apparently)
* There is no Palestine..so it's ok to shoot their women & kids.
* God gave the Israelis the land, his chosen people ..so murdering arabs is completely justified because they are sub-human scum.
also:-
Let's have some evidence to support that assertion.
*waits for Pro Israeli forum apologists/plants to post up any or all of the following:-
* The UN is evil/hotbed of Islamofascists etc. So their democratic opinions count for nothing (apparently)
* There is no Palestine..so it's ok to shoot their women & kids.
* God gave the Israelis the land, his chosen people ..so murdering arabs is completely justified because they are sub-human scum.
also:-
Let's have some evidence to support that assertion.
That's why I support Fox News; They don't spew out shit like that, unlike the BBC. Anyone who does is a retard. On the retard scale, it's on the same level as 9/11 conspiracy theories, and below the whole "Illuminati" or New World Order shit people pull out of their asses every once in a while. The reason the BBC fails is because they employ people like you, terror sympathizers.
In the words of BBC's correspondant in Gaza for the last 10 years, Fayad Abu Shamala, "Journalists and media organizations [are] waging the campaign shoulder-to-shoulder together with the Palestinian people."
CptStern
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where? their company motto is "fair and balanced" ..how is that admitting biased? and how is it that you're familiar with fox"news" at all? it's an american station ..only partially broadcast on the net ..and what is on the net is usually alarmist bullshit masquerading as reporting .. yet for some odd reason you seem to automatically accept their version of "news" over the BBC which I'm sure is broadcast in your country
please complain to the mods because I need to get this off my chest and I really dont care about the reprecusions: you truely are stupid ..and blind, stupid and blind. How can you ****ing sit there and say the BBC is biased but not fox"news"? the very name is synonomous with bush admin propaganda ..jeez you'd really have to be a complete idiot not to see this
ya it's a goddam liberal conspiracy ..please right now find a single fox"news" report critical of bush's decision to invade iraq ..find a single article condemning the US for it's falsified WMD reports leading up to the war ..I mean fox"news" were behind this complete lie of a story ..they never retracted the story or published a followup saying it was utter bullshit despite the fact that the other media outlets widely reported the deception
It's alright, my skin is tough enough. Don't worry, I'm not offended by you, Mr. Art teacher guy. You've done well for yourself, and I admire that, even though I picture you as a person who would shout people's skin off of their faces if contradicted. Nah, you're just like a big, cuddly, albeit screaming, liberal teddybear! :stare:
Just like normal bears, they look intimidating untill you get up close and pet them. Or maybe it's the other way around. Still.
...Can I hug you? I think you need a hug.
Oh, I almost forgot: I assume Absinthe was right in his observation that Fox News had acknowledged that they were biased.
brink's
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I can't think of a single time Fox has ever admitted bias...and i watch fox news. Not to get any world insight or anything of the like, but because it's just so F***ing hilarious..i can't believe people by into this shit or let alone...think it's objective.
I propose we have a Bias off. Fox vrs The BBC. Everyone post biased videos by these two news organizations....i bet youll find more bias from the two years of the OReilly factor alone, then you will from the BBC period.
Nemesis, yes he called you an idiot, but instead of spewing out some random irrelevent jabber. why don't you address the perfectly valid points he just made.
I propose we have a Bias off. Fox vrs The BBC. Everyone post biased videos by these two news organizations....i bet youll find more bias from the two years of the OReilly factor alone, then you will from the BBC period.
Nemesis, yes he called you an idiot, but instead of spewing out some random irrelevent jabber. why don't you address the perfectly valid points he just made.
kirovman
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From having watched both BBC 24 and Fox News, extensively a couple of years ago, I thought that Fox News was some kind of weird parody.
I don't really have anything to say in the way that Fox News is more biased than the BBC other than turn on the TV and look at the mountains of evidence in front of you. Look at it from a neutral viewpoint. Rupert Murdoch for Christ's sake, Fox News is just like The Sun, unsurprisingly.
BBC news has it's share of biased reporters, but their impartiality is closely monitored by watchdogs, and I think the Conservatives set up their own "BBC bias monitor" 8 years ago. Haven't heard much ruckus from them.
I have been pissed off with their style lately, but more in the way of their new tabloidly-approach and promotion of Bad Science rather than bias.
Most of the examples of "bias" I have seen pointed out to me just seem to be in the realm of that "You're either with us or against us" attitude.
1.The BBC don't jump up and down saying "let's kill the terrorists, whoop whoop whoop!" and so they are labelled as commy liberals.
2.???
3.Profit.
I don't really have anything to say in the way that Fox News is more biased than the BBC other than turn on the TV and look at the mountains of evidence in front of you. Look at it from a neutral viewpoint. Rupert Murdoch for Christ's sake, Fox News is just like The Sun, unsurprisingly.
BBC news has it's share of biased reporters, but their impartiality is closely monitored by watchdogs, and I think the Conservatives set up their own "BBC bias monitor" 8 years ago. Haven't heard much ruckus from them.
I have been pissed off with their style lately, but more in the way of their new tabloidly-approach and promotion of Bad Science rather than bias.
Most of the examples of "bias" I have seen pointed out to me just seem to be in the realm of that "You're either with us or against us" attitude.
1.The BBC don't jump up and down saying "let's kill the terrorists, whoop whoop whoop!" and so they are labelled as commy liberals.
2.???
3.Profit.
Sidewinder
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"bla bla bla bla,Im a hater bla bla bla"
that sums up the whole thread
that sums up the whole thread
Kadayi
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The UN have decreed the continued occupation by Israel or the Palestinian territories illegal. There is nothing shit about it, it's a fact that the majority of the world supports. Therefore the BBC is not reporting shit by any stretch of the imagination.
kirovman
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What exactly do you hate?
The U.N has some of the worst human rights abusers in its midst, and allows them to lead the "human rights" part of their organization. Syria, Iran, yeah, they care about human rights. And what about that little thing in Sudan? They did squat about that, and the perpetrator sits amongst them to this day.
I'll use another example to illustrate your flawed logic - The World Conferance against Racism in Durban. Remember what happened there? No?
http://www.adl.org/durban/
A large number of Muslim countries got a resolution that equated Zionism with racism through, and thus, that became a U.N. Resolution. That's how pathetic and easily manipulated the U.N. is, and that's why they've been useless in Lebanon and most of the places they've been; They're nothing but a shill. Time for another example I guess: Remember the Gaza bombing? The evil Israelis bombed the shore and killed a little girl's family. Only problem was: Israel didn't do this. But that didn't stop Kofi from condemning Israel. Another time, he accused Israel of deliberately targeting a U.N post during the second Lebanon war. Hizballah were using the outpost as a launch site and the "peacekeepers" were apparently powerless to stop this.
Hmmm... another one:
You know, Zimbabwe, the country with an inflation rate of 976.4%. But you know, it's all the fault of the white people according to Mugabe. Hell, while we're at it, let's make him head of whatever lobby the U.N has to combat racism and their Human Rights Commision, too!
No Limit
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Nemesis, why will you not address people when they call you on your bullshit? Out of 3 points stern made you addressed one that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I would disporve the above post you just made by pointing you to all the abuses america has commited but wtf is the point, you'll ignore it anyway and then come back 3 days later to post some more racists bullshit about how wonderful israel is while everyone else against their policies is a terrorist.
Kadayi
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A resolution that was revoked if I recall (due to political pressure by the USA). Regardless though the gist of your perception that the UN is biased against Israel, seems to ignore the more obvious position that Israel might well be in the wrong, given the sheer number of resolutions passed overwhelmingly against it's activities in recent years.
Still I don't expect a clear or logical answer from you on this, you've proven that time and time again you can't deliver such things and that you (and a few others) are merely here to muddy the waters with disinformation regarding Israel's activities (you certainly don't come here for the gaming). Frankly your fighting against the tide much like King Canute. The holocaust card has pretty much been played to death, and the ongoing brutality that is the hallmark of the Israeli occupation is so widely known that I for one can't think of anyone I know who is remotely sympathetic to the Israeli situation. Just as the Jews fought back against the Roman occupation, the Arabs fight back against the Israelis, there is nothing new here or unique here.
Well, I just can't him serious at this point. Like you. In both of your eyes, I'm a racist. You're that far gone mentally. Well, except you haven't insinuated that I hate black people... yet. I can't debate with people who've already made up their mind about who I am as a person and what my beliefs are on race issues, all because they don't agree with my politics. I could call you a racist, too. But I don't know, nor do I think that you are. But it really is a powerful weapon in a debate.
Kadayi, there was a list of countries who voted to remove the resolution, and who voted against. The ones who voted for were Western countries. The ones who voted against were largely Muslim. Come up with a better argument. You're a far-leftist, and that's why you see the U.N as infallible; Because there are many people like you in it, people who care only about passing resolutions against Israel. The sheer number of resolutions against Israel contra resolutions passed against various dictatorships in the Middle-East speaks for itself. And you only addressed one of the issues that I rose.
Solaris
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Sterns made some good points here and your debating technique is incredibly frustrating to read. Rebuke what's stern's said or concede the discussion please.
Anyway, I don't think I have to rebuke what he said. I simply find Fox News to be more "Fair & Balanced" than the BBC. What I've seen of it has been most pleasing... At least the recent Steven Emerson - Edina Lekovic debate for example. You don't find that kind of stuff on the BBC, and that's the kind of stuff I wanna see. It's a Conservative news channel, big deal. When you pander to a certain audience, you have the choice to either downplay your mistakes(which can include apologizing) or try to let them slip by unnoticed. I can think of a lot of examples where the BBC, if they don't issue half-assed excuses for sub-standard reporting, completely ignore complaints. The BBC is biased, and it makes mistakes. Same for Fox News.
No Limit
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brink's
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Nemesis, you keep contradicting yourself. How can a channel that is "a conservative news channel" and "panders to a certain audience" be "Fair and Balanced"? It makes absolutely no sense.
Kadayi
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You'll find the numbers and mix of countries eastern and western in favour of pretty much all the resolutions against Israel's continued presence in the occupied territories fairly even. In fact the only country that seems to regularly oppose them are the US who veto them with alarming regularity. Still with the waning power of the US dollar, ever increasing foreign debt due to unsustainable overseas war and the countries slow circling of the drain towards complete and total economic collapse I expect the dogged political support of Israel by the US will eventually whither up and die in a decade or so. :dozey:
In this case, I think Fox News contradict themselves. Not my slogan, anyway.
Any-double-way, Kadayi, you will find those same dictatorships in the U.N, pushing these resolutions, and you'll find the pathetic Western countries being good Dhimmis and supporting it.
The reason the Arab countries "support" the Palestinians is the same reason reason Arab dictators keep inciting their people against someone that isn't themselves; As long as they do that, they themselves are not the enemy, it's the Jews. And hey, the Koran says that, too, so double-win for the Islamist madmen.
Any-double-way, Kadayi, you will find those same dictatorships in the U.N, pushing these resolutions, and you'll find the pathetic Western countries being good Dhimmis and supporting it.
The reason the Arab countries "support" the Palestinians is the same reason reason Arab dictators keep inciting their people against someone that isn't themselves; As long as they do that, they themselves are not the enemy, it's the Jews. And hey, the Koran says that, too, so double-win for the Islamist madmen.
No Limit
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So Israel constantly snatching away more Islamic land has nothing to do with all that hate? Muslims in the UK, Germany, and other western countries hate Israel because some dictator told them to? Do you fail to understand how irrational your logic is?
And dictaoriships in the UN are the reason virtually every country but the US supports punishing Israel for their past actions? So this is another case of us doing everything right and everyone else being wrong, right?
Also, you said that is only one case of Fox News contradicting themselves, well I can point you to many more. But for shit and giggles do this, post one BBC story that was an out right lie that was never corrected by them. I'll give you some time.
Glirk Dient
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This just in...FOX news is conservative. PS all news is biased.
No Limit
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What a bunch of shit, will you please stop saying that? Yes, all news station have some form of bias (and a lot of that bias leans to the right) but none of that bias comes close to the propogenda fox news puts out on a daily basis.
Name one story the other major news outlets originally reported that turned out to be total fiction and then refused to correct the record on. If by some stroke of luck you do find one I will bet you a million dollars I will find one from that same network that is biased the other way. In the case of Fox News all their false stories are stories that benefit the right, that is always the case.
Kadayi
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Let's have some examples. I want to see those votes.
K e r b e r o s
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Whats so wrong with Fox News plucking a few political strings? Just as comparable to any other media source and quite honestly, the people will decide, not the media, who gets into office on the when, how, and why.
K e r b e r o s
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You know the best way to get 'balance' out of all these 'biased but available' media outlets is to watch them all. I swear, sometimes CNN and Fox get me both on some of the stories they run or REFUSE to run and its really the only thing I can do. Where it not for a change of particular laws you would'nt have to change the channel every couple of minutes, but still, its a sacrifice worth going for.
It used to be a rule that if one news station broadcast a set of particular political values it would have to counter-balance it with something on the other side of the spectrum.
Sometimes I think that law should be in place and in use.
Absinthe
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But then that defeats the point reporting the news. In the face of bias, networks should strive to be more accurate and fair over their competition. Providing a counter-balance doesn't solve any problem. It just gives another source of distorted information.
Fox News was built from the ground up to be, at its core, a conservative news station. Not an accurate one. Not a fair one. But one that says and shows things that appeal to a conservative base in retaliation to perceived liberal bias. It's very childish or very clever (considering the numbers they pull). Either way, objective reporting never enters into it because its intent is to provide conservative coloring as a standard.
Fox News was built from the ground up to be, at its core, a conservative news station. Not an accurate one. Not a fair one. But one that says and shows things that appeal to a conservative base in retaliation to perceived liberal bias. It's very childish or very clever (considering the numbers they pull). Either way, objective reporting never enters into it because its intent is to provide conservative coloring as a standard.
No Limit
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So, anybody hear of the illegal caging lists the Bush administration participated in during the 2004 election? Oh, that's right, our liberal media is refusing to report on it so chances are you haven't.
Originally ran in 2004 on the BBC and now confirmed in senate testimony a couple weeks back:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm
In related news Nemesis has disapeared off the face of the earth but I bet you in a few days he'll be back to post some more racist bullshit about how muslims are evil and and we are saints.
Originally ran in 2004 on the BBC and now confirmed in senate testimony a couple weeks back:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm
In related news Nemesis has disapeared off the face of the earth but I bet you in a few days he'll be back to post some more racist bullshit about how muslims are evil and and we are saints.
Glirk Dient
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I simply googled "CNN Bias" and this was the first thing that came up.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Classic_CNN_Bias.asp
It talks about how CNN personalizes terrorists for simpathy and don't do the same for the victims of the attacks.
This site goes over CNNs "Pro Arab" agenda
http://www.christian-witness.org/islam/cnn_bias.html
Here is a site that quotes the Prime Minister of Iraqi Kurdistan comparing CNN to Al Jazeera over the Iraq war coverage.
http://rumorofwar.blogspot.com/2006/11/is-cnn-bias.html
Here is Huga Chavez calling CNN out on their biased coverage of him.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117965903.html?categoryid=14&cs=1
As for lies...this guy has chronicalled many "lies" by CNN. I didnt read through the whole thing, i simply scanned it over and some of his "lies" seem to be relevant and others simply whining by him. However...there are an awful lot here.
http://cnnlies.blogspot.com/
Here are some more.
http://wizbangblog.com/2004/04/11/cnn-lies.php
As you can see CNN is biased and does lie. Probally not as bad as FOX but they aren't innocent as you would make other believe. All news is biased.
Also...you said the majority of biased media is to the right? Could you find sources for any news station other than FOX?
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Classic_CNN_Bias.asp
It talks about how CNN personalizes terrorists for simpathy and don't do the same for the victims of the attacks.
This site goes over CNNs "Pro Arab" agenda
http://www.christian-witness.org/islam/cnn_bias.html
Here is a site that quotes the Prime Minister of Iraqi Kurdistan comparing CNN to Al Jazeera over the Iraq war coverage.
http://rumorofwar.blogspot.com/2006/11/is-cnn-bias.html
Here is Huga Chavez calling CNN out on their biased coverage of him.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117965903.html?categoryid=14&cs=1
As for lies...this guy has chronicalled many "lies" by CNN. I didnt read through the whole thing, i simply scanned it over and some of his "lies" seem to be relevant and others simply whining by him. However...there are an awful lot here.
http://cnnlies.blogspot.com/
Here are some more.
http://wizbangblog.com/2004/04/11/cnn-lies.php
As you can see CNN is biased and does lie. Probally not as bad as FOX but they aren't innocent as you would make other believe. All news is biased.
Also...you said the majority of biased media is to the right? Could you find sources for any news station other than FOX?
Sulkdodds
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There is no such thing as an unbiased position. This is obvious.
However, it is also not acceptable that we reach some kind of middle position by comparing different biases. One bias may be common to all stations, and the apparent conflict serves to conceal any common position they might take. We begin to focus too much on the differences between each news source instead of looking at the situation objectively as we can.
However, it is also not acceptable that we reach some kind of middle position by comparing different biases. One bias may be common to all stations, and the apparent conflict serves to conceal any common position they might take. We begin to focus too much on the differences between each news source instead of looking at the situation objectively as we can.
CptStern
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the ones accusing the other of bias are usually from a group supporting a spefici agenda ..I mean take all of those links Glirk posted and you'll find the majority are from groups pushing an agenda that's at odds with CNN ...but all this nonsense from conservatives about CNN and the liberal biased media stikes me like a slpa in the face ..mostly because they're too stupid to recognise their own bias in terms of the issue presented
No Limit
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Your best find was from 2002 and their only complaints are that CNN uses the term palestinians instead of terrorists and that they don't listen to the Jerusalem Post without verifying it first? I guess I should have beef with CNN for calling Isrealis Isrealis instead of terrorists and I should have beef with them that they don't quote hamas news outlets? Do you fail to see how irrational and hypocritical these arguments on your part are? How does this compare to making up stories which fox news has done time and time again. How does it compare to lying on a daily basis?
This site doesn't cite a single example. Try again.
Wow, the prime minister of the US friendly kurdish teritories said that, well shit, it must be true. You failed, try again.
This I will agree with, but this applies to virtually every network here in the states and it shows the bias to the right, not the left as you wanted to suggest. So thanks for helping me prove my point, I appreciate it.
LOL, are you kidding me? Another site from 2003 that makes absolutely no sense. All I saw there were stupid rants that didn't show anything. but I'll play this game with you, name some examples of that site you want to discuss.
Some more, I can only see one story there. And it is utter bullshit:
The white house didn't have to know where those planes were going to strike, what they knew was that planes were going to be hijacked from this country and then those planes were going to be flown into buildings. Any responsible leader would have acted on that. That entire page is grapsing at straws trying to find small tiny details that have nothing to do with the big picture.
So lets see here, out of all that you found really 1 very weak example of CNN lying about the right that dates back to 2004. Compare that to this:
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=cnn
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=msnbc
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=abc
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=fox
Do you have any serious, recent examples of CNNs bias to the left so I can take you seriously or are we done here? How do you explain the fact all the major news networks, every single one of them, are ignoring the story about illegal caging lists the Bush campaing used during the 2004 elections. It proves election fraud on the part of Bush's administration yet it has been totally ignored. How do you explain the same thing when the downing street memos were released? I can cite many more examples but I'll let you take a week to respond to those.
Glirk Dient
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Mostly because the memos were very controversial. As I said it was a 5 second google search to bring up complaints about CNN being biased. If your still at the point of refusing them to be biased I pity you. They aren't a FOX but they are biased.
The sites I linked to aren't full of atrocities, but they do list and show examples of bias and lies by CNN. They are a news network and all news is biased. If you can't even detect biased rhetoric in their writing then you need to leave the politics section if your that blind.
Honestly...do you still think CNN is completely unbiased? I lean more to the left and can't stand all the shit FOX spews but how can you say that CNN is unbiased? In your eyes is there any leftist biased from any stations or are you simply ignoring leftist bias and only calling out the evil right?
BTW I am still waiting for your evidence that the majority of media is conservative. Here is an article that states the opposite, that most of the media is liberal.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/143lkblo.asp
The sites I linked to aren't full of atrocities, but they do list and show examples of bias and lies by CNN. They are a news network and all news is biased. If you can't even detect biased rhetoric in their writing then you need to leave the politics section if your that blind.
Honestly...do you still think CNN is completely unbiased? I lean more to the left and can't stand all the shit FOX spews but how can you say that CNN is unbiased? In your eyes is there any leftist biased from any stations or are you simply ignoring leftist bias and only calling out the evil right?
BTW I am still waiting for your evidence that the majority of media is conservative. Here is an article that states the opposite, that most of the media is liberal.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/143lkblo.asp
brink's
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K, Dude, in every post he's admitted that every news organization shows some amount of bias, so when you keep writing stuff like "do you still think CNN is completely unbiased" etc your just repeatedly asking a question thats been answered pages ago.
Also, he pretty much just debunked your entire last post, so you have to, again, back up your argument.
There's no doubt that CNN is biased but at least they have Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck and Nancy Grace amoung others. Foxnews doesn't have anyone outside of Colmes who leans to the left and he has to share half a show with a load mouth republican who makes outrages unjustified comments.
No Limit
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I'm sorry but there is something wrong with you dude.
You are quoting the weekly standard to show liberal bias? I just posted links that show you thousands of documented examples of right wing lies coming from every single large news outlet. I told you about 2 recent examples of all major news media outlets refusing to air stories that show Bush administration's lies and illegal activites. I disproved every single link that you posted. And you respond with an article from the weekly standard that cites examples dating back to the 1970s? You are a waste of keyboard strokes.
You come in here trying to sound like you are bipartisan. Do you think anybody buys that shit from you? You will come back, no matter how many examples are shown to the contrary, with that same stupid slogan "all news is biased" and then you will try to add on to that that they are biased to the left making it sound like Fox News is the sound of reason. This is utter bullshit I not only disproved in this topic but I disproved a while back when we had this exact same conversation. Yet I will bet money that somewhere in the future if this message board is still around and this same topic is being discussed you will come in here with the exact same bullshit and we will be doing this all over again.
