Gabe Newell reveals E3 Surprise

[Sheepo]

Though it's pretty clear that you're trying to communicate disagreement, I usually find posts such as these incomprehensible when it comes to the real message. Are you mocking the entire HL series, Episode 2, me, or a combination?

What... how?

While HL2 is great, it really does have some major flaws, specifically in the gameplay department. There are segments that go on for entirely too long without much real purpose (driving, watercrafting, City 17). There's also the fact that the linearity of the game feels incredibly forced, whereas in HL1, being trapped in scientific facility, it was kind of believable.

On the other hand, Episode 2 feels like an incredibly streamlined experience. Every point of it hits that "just right" feeling, in terms of pacing, gameplay, storytelling. On top of that the visuals and atmosphere are fantastic. I think the best way to put it is that Episode 2 the best executed game I've ever played. That said, HL2 does deliver on a very different and larger level and I would definitely hesitate to say that Episode 2 is the superior game. It;s one of those things that I go back and forth with in my mind.

 

[Darkside55]

Are you mocking the entire HL series, Episode 2, me, or a combination?

When I posted, I was only mocking you. But now your question has forced me to reevaluate my post, and I think I'm mocking everything.

Every point of it hits that "just right" feeling, in terms of pacing, gameplay, storytelling.

Pacing sucked. Goddamn driving the car around everywhere was bullshit. The tunnels were bullshit. The farm or whatever the hell it was was bullshit. Defending that house or hotel or whatever it was from the combine was bullshit. The strider battle was super bullshit. Everything was bullshit.

Gameplay was just the same old thing all over again. Look at me fighting this chopper again. Look at me fighting these striders again. Look at me fighting these antlions again. Look at me fighting the overwatch again. Look at me having the same weapons again after I got them back from losing them again.

Storytelling? You mean Valve's patented Carrot on a Stick delivery system? HEY GORDAN WUD U LIEK SUM ANSURRS? WOOPS LOL I DIED

 

[Sheepo]

It's pretty hard to argue with "Here's a list of everything that happens in the game and oh by the way I think every one of them is bullshit" and "Valve didn't explain the entire HL universe to me so now I'm sad".

 

[Darkside55]

Can't argue with the truth, bro.

 

[Sheepo]

Well then I guess I have no choice but to say agree to disagree.

 

[Danimal]

I felt kind of cheated towards the end of Episode 2, basically for the reasons Darkside stated.

I mean Hunters weren't really as awesome as I was expecting back when we were all speculating about them.

 

[Sheepo]

I felt kind of cheated towards the end of Episode 2, basically for the reasons Darkside stated.

The reasons being no reasons at all?

 

[Danimal]

Sheepo, what happened to you?

Ever since you lost your partner in that drug bust you haven't been the same.

I'm giving you a desk job until you can straighten things out.

 

[Stigmata]

Hunters were victim to Source's AI. I imagined them leaping across rooftops and making quick assassin strikes from the darkness, stalking you from the shadows and all that, but outside of scripted scenes they were nothing more than Antlions with four times the health and a Combine posture.

Also Darkside, re: Storytelling: Half-Life really seems to embody the saying "it is not the destination that matters, but the journey there". Yes, there is usually a carrot that usually twists its way out of existence when you get to it, but you learn a lot on the way. You learn that the Combine don't have a strong military hold on White Forest. You learn about Magnusson. You learn about the actions the Combine took after the self-detonation of the Citadel. Eli dies. You launch a satellite into orbit. Lots of cool stuff happens and is revealed during the game. I don't care so much that I didn't get my carrot.

 

[knut]

jesus christ there is some awful boarding going on in this thread

 

[Darkside55]

You learn that the Combine don't have a strong military hold on White Forest.

We knew that; or rather it was implied because, y'know, WHY ELSE WOULD YOU BUILD A BASE THERE.

You learn about Magnusson.

Magnusson? MAGNUSSON?! LEMME TELL YOU ABOUT MAGNUSSON

I knew all about Magnusson since that asshole was called Slick. I knew all about Magnusson when that condescending bastard talked shit to me outside the test chamberrrrrrr. What the hell were we supposed to "LEARN" about Magnusson? How big an asshole he was?

WELL I ALREADY KNEW THAT

I DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT A SECOND TIME

GODDAMN MAGNUSSON

You learn about the actions the Combine took after the self-detonation of the Citadel.

Getting the hell out of dodge? Yeah, well, of course. 'Cause they're really gonna stick around to watch the city ASPLODE.

Eli dies.

Gasp! Emotional heartstrings...being...pulled...except not, 'cause this bastard promised me answers like twenty minutes ago and I knew, I KNEW I was gonna get blocked on 'em somehow when he sent me out. Such a load of bullshit.

You launch a satellite into orbit.

Oh yes, yes, very memorable. Just like how everyone remembers launching the satellite in Half-Life 1 oh wait they don't

Lots of cool stuff happens and is revealed during the game.

No it doesn't, and no there isn't. You know what the biggest reveal of that entire game was? G-man saved Alyx. That was it. "I saved her life, some people objected to it. Why'd I do it? Lol I dunno. But now I'm gonna whisper in her ear and troll her father. Ta-ta for now."

"it is not the destination that matters, but the journey there".

The journey is bullshit. You are a traveling lapdog and you get NOTHING as a reward. You get some goddamned vistas as your reward. Look at the pretty scenery, Gordon. Well to hell with that the scenery ain't even that good. I see better scenery just running around in RDR doing shit-all and that feels like a better reward than being Gordon Freeman getting no answers and fighting no bosses. Gordon is the goddamn PS3 of protagonists; he gets NOTHING.

 

[Danimal]

...Yeah!

 

[MJ12]

he got the blue gravity gun

 

[Darkside55]

Which he lost. Although I will concede that pretending to be a Jedi running around the citadel WAS pretty cool.

 

[Stigmata]

The journey is bullshit. You are a traveling lapdog and you get NOTHING as a reward. You get some goddamned vistas as your reward. Look at the pretty scenery, Gordon. Well to hell with that the scenery ain't even that good. I see better scenery just running around in RDR doing shit-all and that feels like a better reward than being Gordon Freeman getting no answers and fighting no bosses. Gordon is the goddamn PS3 of protagonists; he gets NOTHING.

I have but four final words for you:

Zero out of ten.

 

[Darkside55]

Posting troll score because he has no rebuttal

 

[Acepilotf14]

posting reaction image because he has no rebuttal

 

[Darkside55]

implying there's anything for me to rebut

 

[Vegeta897]

Make it stop.

 

[Darkside55]

Sure will, the instant someone can come back with an actual argument against.

OH WAIT

NO ONE CAN

'CAUSE THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS

 

[Acepilotf14]

implying

 

[Darkside55]

N-no one's going to fall for that photoshop! It's an obvious forgery!

Stick to the topic at hand!

 

[Stigmata]

Welcome to the Tautology Club, Darkside! Remember: The first rule of the Tautology Club is the first rule of the Tautology Club!

 

[Danimal]

Looks like I better start smashing the cars of the jury to cover Darkside's ass.

 

[Darkside55]

Looks like I better start smashing the cars of the jury to cover Darkside's ass.

It'll never hold up, but just in case I think we should get our papers in order just in case I need to get the hell out of here in a hurry.

 

[Danimal]

We could sit around for a bunch of sweaty dicks in suits to forge paperwork but in situations like this, they're going to charge extra because they're well aware of our desperate state.

I got another way, but how are you with being in small spaces for hours at a time? You'll be eating Pineapple Fritters like a free man in no time!

 

[Acepilotf14]

 

[Stigmata]

It'll never hold up, but just in case I think we should get our papers in order just in case I need to get the hell out of here in a hurry.

>specifically doesn't reply to me because addressing my post means acknowledging the tautological soul of the troll

 

[Darkside55]

Can't hear you man, too busy eating pineapple fritters.

 

[Stigmata]

I like you.

No, really.

(No, really.)

 

[Sheepo]

We knew that; or rather it was implied because, y'know, WHY ELSE WOULD YOU BUILD A BASE THERE.

Magnusson? MAGNUSSON?! LEMME TELL YOU ABOUT MAGNUSSON

I knew all about Magnusson since that asshole was called Slick. I knew all about Magnusson when that condescending bastard talked shit to me outside the test chamberrrrrrr. What the hell were we supposed to "LEARN" about Magnusson? How big an asshole he was?

WELL I ALREADY KNEW THAT

I DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT A SECOND TIME

GODDAMN MAGNUSSON

Getting the hell out of dodge? Yeah, well, of course. 'Cause they're really gonna stick around to watch the city ASPLODE.

Gasp! Emotional heartstrings...being...pulled...except not, 'cause this bastard promised me answers like twenty minutes ago and I knew, I KNEW I was gonna get blocked on 'em somehow when he sent me out. Such a load of bullshit.

Oh yes, yes, very memorable. Just like how everyone remembers launching the satellite in Half-Life 1 oh wait they don't

No it doesn't, and no there isn't. You know what the biggest reveal of that entire game was? G-man saved Alyx. That was it. "I saved her life, some people objected to it. Why'd I do it? Lol I dunno. But now I'm gonna whisper in her ear and troll her father. Ta-ta for now."

This entire thing can be summarized with "I want Gman explained waaaaaaaaaah".

The journey is bullshit. You are a traveling lapdog and you get NOTHING as a reward. You get some goddamned vistas as your reward. Look at the pretty scenery, Gordon. Well to hell with that the scenery ain't even that good. I see better scenery just running around in RDR doing shit-all and that feels like a better reward than being Gordon Freeman getting no answers and fighting no bosses. Gordon is the goddamn PS3 of protagonists; he gets NOTHING.

I don't understand this. This is essentially the structure of every HL game yet you find this utterly unacceptable.

I'm not really arguing here because it appears that you think Ep. 1 > Ep. 2 which means you're either a troll or really dumb. Episode 1 took the worst, most overused part of HL2 and made a 4-5 hour copy of it.

-Blue gravity gun
-Darkness and zombies
-Big antlion
-Killing thousands of overwatch
-Gunship fight*
-Escorting rebels 50 yards and back over and over
-Platforming
-Rocket launcher!

Maybe the train ride made was enough of a 'reward' for that monotonous exercise for you.

 

[MFL]

This is essentially the structure of every HL game

Not HL1.

You are a traveling lapdog and you get NOTHING as a reward.

Well shit Darkside, if you don't like the pay, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE WALKED OUT THE GOD DAMN DOOR. Don't pretend like you didn't have a choice.

getting no answers and fighting no bosses

You don't want to fight the boss. We all know there is only one boss, and you're ****in working for him. Or were, till the Vorts decided to jack you up and toss you round the landscape. Things were goin dandy. I was QUITE HAPPY in my god damn stasis, thank you very much. I don't need answers. I don't give three shits to the wind who the hell G-Man is. He's a god damn humanitarian aid worker as far as I know, savin' damsels and shit. To green lightning-shits with it, he saves the GOD DAMN HERO, and does he get any mc'****in'thanks? No, the vortessence decides to **** it all up and plop me down in the nice land of unemployment, and I don't know if you all have noticed, BUT THERE MIGHT BE A RECESSION GOING ON IN EARTH'S PRESENT ECONOMY.

**** Eli, **** Alyx, **** Barney, **** Breen, **** Kliener, **** Magnusson, **** Edith, **** Chell, **** GlaDOS, **** the Combine, **** the Resistance, **** the Vortessence, **** the Antlions, **** the Marines, **** Black Ops, **** Nihilanth, **** Race-X, **** Houndeyes and Bullsquids, and **** every single one of those mother ****ing headcrabs IN THEIR GOD DAMN SNOT MAWS.

Vote G-Man 2012.




And when my job here on Earth is done, and the G-Man sits me down and says to me, "Son, you've done a good job here, now, you can either stay here and have nice HEV babies with yo first ho' down the hall, or... You can come get some real shit done." and gestures over his shoulder at the sky split open to a new horizon long since raped by Citadels, you can be damn well sure I'm gonna walk through that door again.

I be maxin' with intelligent nebulae in no time. HL3 ftw.

 

[Barnz]

gman is kinda like x from x-files. he helps you, but you never know who he is, and what does he work for. why try to explain him, and ruin his character? they want you to use your imagination. they will never give you an explanation. you will never know who he is, or his agendo. so why not try to enjoy the game, and stop crying like lost fans.

you can't really compare an episode with a full game, AAA title. you see, it's something new. something never done before. is it good? hell yes. I don't care if you don't like it. it's not perfect, but it's a lot better than waiting years for a sequel.

**** Eli, **** Alyx, **** Barney, **** Breen, **** Kliener, **** Magnusson, **** Edith, **** Chell, **** GlaDOS, **** the Combine, **** the Resistance, **** the Vortessence, **** the Antlions, **** the Marines, **** Black Ops, **** Nihilanth, **** Race-X, **** Houndeyes and Bullsquids, and **** every single one of those mother ****ing headcrabs IN THEIR GOD DAMN SNOT MAWS.

now now, hold on there, my boy. you.




yes, you. my friend.




you can't f.u.c.k with Race-X.




RACE-X F.U.C.K.S YOU

 

[Sheepo]

Not HL1.

Oh yeah, HL1 has the reward of a shitty boss fight. The end Strider fight in Episode 2 is the best climax any HL game has ever had but durr hurr it's not a boss.

 

[MFL]

I was talking about how HL1 was not structured around flitting from scenic vista to scenic vista, crudely slopping together short story set pieces and at the end of it deus ex machina'ing us to the middle of City 17 and wrapping their loose-fitting plot with the invasion of a giant phallic symbol.

In HL1, you've got a definite human motive that you are constantly trying to accomplish, whether or not you consciously realize it. Survive, get to the surface, get the **** outta dodge. Your own psychology sets up the flow, and everything, up to the moment when that crazy ass scientist tells you to drop kick yourself through a portal to another dimension, is all about that. The set design, the enemy design, the audio, everything worked towards stewing the emotional pot that comes from being a scared little girl in a room she desperately needs to get out of because of the scary toothy monsters. Then Xen hits and that's pretty much when people classically started having trouble liking the game. You want to know why? Because at the most basic level, it doesn't make any god damn sense. The altruistic drive to be a hero is directly oppositional to the instinct to survive. Sure, on the one hand you are fighting for the survival of the human race (actually, this isn't even certain at that moment, it's really about stopping the Nihilanth's influence in the Earth dimension, which doesn't necessarily equate to Freeman's [or humanity's] own personal survival), but on the other you are putting yourself at extreme risk. The warning lights pop on in the brain about how much you don't want to be here, but there is no other choice but to do so in accordance with the flow of the game, and because it can't be properly rectified, we shut down and decide the experience is somewhat stupid.

Which is kinda what is happening throughout the entirety of HL2 and its subsequent episodes.

...

Though I suppose you could argue that having the G-Man being so ambiguous with the details of your mission at the beginning of HL2 forces you to 'not know whats going on' and stumble around City 17 'just trying to survive' while being 'guided around by the holy hand of the g-man'. To which I say, COP OUT, it didn't work. If they had gotten away with it, sure, whatever, but no, they didn't. It just felt artificial and forced.

Balls.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Oh yeah, HL1 has the reward of a shitty boss fight. The end Strider fight in Episode 2 is the best climax any HL game has ever had but durr hurr it's not a boss.

hurr durr drive around and shoot sticky grenades at striders which one-shot them while you one-shot hunters by driving over them

soo boooring

 

[Sheepo]

Hurr durr climbing over shipping crates from cover to cover, shoot rocket launcher

Hurr durr taking giant elevators to the top of a tower, right click at enemies, shoot orb at breen

Hurr durr shoot glau gun at giant baby head

I would love to see a video of you successfully running over every hunter and flawlessly busting every strider in the most efficient way possible. You can kill a hunter with your car, but you can usually only get one with a pack of two or three. Then you have to choose between working up speed to the others in limited space (though they may well be in trees, so that wouldn't work), getting out and gravity gunning them with logs or something or using a weaker gun if you don't have anything big to hit em with, all the while trying to dodge their fire and the strider's fire, and trying to judge how much time you have until the strider takes out another base and where you'll get the magnusson to stop him, and OH GOD ANOTHER GROUP JUST LANDED.

Yeah, I dunno. I can't see how you don't have a blast playing that.

I'll get to you later MFL.

 

[Shem]

In HL1, you've got a definite human motive that you are constantly trying to accomplish, whether or not you consciously realize it. Survive, get to the surface, get the **** outta dodge. Your own psychology sets up the flow, and everything, up to the moment when that crazy ass scientist tells you to drop kick yourself through a portal to another dimension, is all about that. That's pretty much when people classically started having trouble liking the game, once they got to Xen. You want to know why? Because at the most basic level, it doesn't make any god damn sense. The altruistic drive to be a hero is directly oppositional to the instinct to survive. Sure, on the one hand you are fighting for the survival of the human race (actually, this isn't even certain at that moment, it's really about stopping the Nihilanth's influence in the Earth dimension, which doesn't necessarily equate to Freeman's [or humanity's] own personal survival), but on the other you are putting yourself at extreme risk. The warning lights pop on in the brain about how much you don't want to be here, but there is no other choice but to do so in accordance with the flow of the game, and because it can't be properly rectified, we shut down and decide the experience is somewhat stupid.

Which is kinda what is happening throughout the entirety of HL2 and its subsequent episodes.

...

Yes, but wasn't there a growing curiosity to visit Xen, the cause of all of Black Mesa's, but more importantly, Earth's problems? There was no other way to eradicate these problems without putting yourself at extreme risk, and that's what Gordon did. He had to defeat the Nihilanth and ignore all instincts and warning signs to at least lessen the problem significantly. Of course we didn't know if going to Xen would solve any of these problems, but it was worth a try. I mean, it seemed like no one else was going to do the job, since most of the scientists were not capable of the task, and the military had already pulled out and were clearly trying to kill everyone.

 

[MFL]

Personally, given the course of the rest of Gordon's day, I don't think curiosity of the unknown would be the highest on his list of priorities. And as for there being no other way, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Why not? Because its in the best interest of whoever wrote the story for it to be that way? The transformation from normal free man to hero was one that could have been done well, maybe if they had the Source engine back in the day, maybe if they were more conservative or crazy with their level design. I don't really know. Could have been half a hundred million things, but the point I was really trying to make through this whole thing is that after you make that jump its a lot harder to convince the audience to sympathize with what is going on. In hindsight, maybe if they had paced it a little faster in HL2 or Xen it would have been less... I don't know how to describe it.

Do any of you all get the feeling at the back of your mind the first time couple times playing through these games (Xen and on) that something just doesn't make any god damn sense? That instead of being inside the eye's of the Freeman you're watching a play? The distancing... it's not something I ever actually noticed when I was sneaking around Black Mesa trying hard as I could not to get deaded by the next hardest encounter, whether it be environmental or alive (can't tell you all how hard I freaked when I got to the part with the black ops ladies).

It came up in particular for me when coasting through HL2. I felt more like the G-Man watching Gordon go through the hoops then I did as Gordon tearing life out of the jaws of death. Maybe it had something to do with the ease of play. Or the inability to shoot whomever you please (surely the fade to black with reasonable cosmic explanation could have allowed me to pop Kliener for at least a couple quick-loads). Hell, it could have been the lack of a gibbing system. I'm sorry but when I toss multiple grenades into your chest, you bloody well explode, I don't care if you're technology from another dimension.

Sigh.

 

[Darkside55]

You're absolutely right though, MFL. In HL1 the objective through 90% of the game is saving your own ass. Everything you do is motivated by your own survival; anything you do in that game that is beneficial to anyone else is purely coincidental. Even launching the satellite to stem the random portals wasn't done for concern over the fabric of dimensions or to contain the resonance cascade in the interest of protecting the outside world, you did it to stop headcrabs jumping in on you at random.

The moment you finally make it inside Lambda complex is the beginning of Gordon's character descent into go-to boy for everyone and their scientist father. You know at that point where the Lambda scientist says, "Of course, you owe us nothing, Mr. Freeman," you should just turn the game off right then and there, because you're damn right I don't owe you anything. I love Xen, Xen's a beautiful place, but for the context of Freeman's story he should've just told those scientists and that security guard to sod off.

Maybe then he wouldn't have to drive around everywhere at everyone's beck and call 20 years later.

This entire thing can be summarized with "I want Gman explained waaaaaaaaaah".

Haha, because the G-man is really so important. You know, I don't give two shits about the G-man any more. You know what the G-man is? A cheap deus ex machina disguised as a "mystery" that everyone's long since stopped giving a shit about. There are answers I want that are only tangentially related to the G-man that I'm not getting.

The point is, I don't feel like I'm getting anything for going through these games. I get scenery. I've said before, the reward doesn't need to be answers. Give me a boss fight so that when I defeat it I feel like a badass. Stop giving me striders and gunships and hunter choppers. They aren't challenging and they don't make me feel anything. They are a slightly tougher cannon fodder mook.

I can't see how you don't have a blast playing that.

Oh boy, driving around the map picking up ammo and one-shot'ing striders! You realize you can ignore those little shits the hunters, right? They are of absolutely no consequence. So that whole final battle is just "drive around, get strider buster ammo, kill striders before they use singularity cannon. Lather, rinse, repeat."

Also I never said that the strider battle at the end of Ep1 was any good, nor the gunship battle. That's the same old shit all over again. But you know what makes Ep1 better than all of Ep2? Undue Alarm and Direct Intervention. The citadel chapters are better than the entirety of Ep2. Everything else about Ep1 is kind of forgettable (though the hospital was alright), but the citadel was some straight up oldschool HL1 shit: "This reactor is going to explode and kill me. I need to platform and solve puzzles to stop it."

Undue Alarm and Direct Intervention were the Lambda Core of the Half-Life 2 games.