Garry's Mod going retail

[Pesmerga]

I think the big thing here is terminology. Most mods aren't really even mods. When you change every damn thing about a game, like, say, a total conversion, it becomes it's own game. Therefore it makes perfect sense for teams to go retail (if they even could in the first place), but a true mod should remain free. Garry's Mod kinda blurs the distortion between a mod and a total conversion. I think that's where my problem comes from.

Insurgency, Badge of Blood, Eternal Silence, Dystopia and the hundred other mods are all considered to be total conversions. Should they cost money?

 

[UltimaApocalypse]

I think the following are good enough to cost money:

Garry's Mod
Dystopia
Black Mesa:Source

 

[605Scorpion]

EDIT: Please delete this message.

 

[605Scorpion]

Insurgency, Badge of Blood, Eternal Silence, Dystopia and the hundred other mods are all considered to be total conversions. Should they cost money?

Probably so. People have just been riding the gravy train all these years since mods have no way to charge. What separates Badge of Blood from a "legitimate" game? It doesn't have a publisher? It isn't hyped by Gamespot?

 

[Buveed]

I don't play it, so i couldn't care.

But you know, if i can actually find a mod good enough, i'll buy it. If i spend countless hours on a game i played for free, then they deserve some of my money. CS came out a year after half-life, they kept improving it for years, and it became what it is today. I spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours playing a free game. Them being bought up by Valve doesn't phase me at all. It only makes them work harder, knowing that they're getting something in return for their hard work.

And look at how many mods there are for Half-Life 1. Shitloads. Did they all get bought out by Valve? No. Would i ever buy Firearms if they did get picked up Valve? Nope, that mod is terrible. (note: opinion )

And to say "Valve is trying to make money everyway they can, boohoo hoo hoo", really, shut up. They're running business, who need money so they can hire more talented people to make more games. Games are more difficult and more expensive these days. They need too keep up. They're not Konami or Capcom or EA who can ride on a 3 good games and 10 shitty ones. The video game has become an arena that if you don't suceed, you're finished or you're gobbled up by a bigger company. Valve's trying to avoid that.

Besides, Valve has been more than generous with their pricing strategy. $60 got me the silver package, and i've never gotten so much out of a newly released game.

 

[TwwIX]

Even though i like garry's mod,it's nothing more then a tool.
Why even pay for something that's already in the game that i own anyway?
Thx,but no thx.I rather wait for a free "clone" instead.

 

[RP.]

Even though i like garry's mod,it's nothing more then a tool.
Why even pay for something that's already in the game that i own anyway?
Thx,but no thx.I rather wait for a free "clone" instead.

No one is going to make a free "clone" as you call it.
Garry himself said that afaik he wouldn't update it anymore, since it consumes hell lot of time for a very small reward if at all, so basiclly no one loses anything.

 

[UltimaApocalypse]

What do you mean free clone? That won't happen.

 

[pvtbones]

good for garry, he's put alot of work into it.

but I won't be buying it, to me it's just something for a rainy day, not something I play enough to warrant buying it.

 

[SkilledNewbie]

To the one or two of you waiting for a "free clone", I wouldn't hold your breath. Whoever would be involved with it would be chastised by the mod community and would always be known as "that guy that ripped off Garry's mod". I'd rather wait for a content creation mod that takes a seperate path from where Garry has gone.

 

[OCybrManO]

I thought Garry was "that guy that ripped off Garry's mod"...

 

[UltimaApocalypse]

Well the code to make the Physgun was ripped off Valve..

 

[OCybrManO]

Well the code to make the Physgun was ripped off Valve..

No, I was thinking of the other mod(s) that re-enabled the physgun, welding, etc... one of them was something like JBmod... I think.

It came out a while before Garry's Mod... although, Garry's Mod quickly overtook it after a couple of updates.

 

[UltimaApocalypse]

I've played JBmod, and it was boring.

Are the Facepunch forums are down for anyone else?

 

[COALslaw]

Retail? Retarrrrded

 

[cyborgguineapig]

For many of you which seem to be ignorant towards the concept of people being payed for their hard work and effort, grow up a little because things arn't done for free just to satisfy you and your greasy sterotypical geeky gamer selves who have maybe never held a job or know anything about producing a mod or game.

Open your eyes. Have you considered that Valve did infact buy out Garry's mod for the simple reason that it showcases the abilities of the source engine well? garry's mod is essentially a giant source engine demo if you think about it. If I was Valve I'd sure as hell want to pick up the mod and support the guy to continue work on it.

For once maybe you should congratulate and support your mod community because after all, if they damn well chose too, the mod makers that is, they could decide not to make mods for all the bitching and moaning kids of the earth.

Personally though I'm not interested in the mod enough to want to buy it, but I whole heartedly support them and think their decision to go retail is a smart move.

 

[Sparta]

Some of you guys are getting pretty pissed off over spending 10 bucks on a pretty damn decent mod. Plus, this means more players online Which means more newbies to eaten up by my spawn-traps . Great fun.

 

[Merc248]

Okay, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but eh, I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

I still remember the good old days of the Doom 2/Quake 1/Quake 2/Duke Nukem 3D/Dark Forces modding community. Everyone made mods because they loved to create something cool, something that they loved to do in their free time. This was before Counter-Strike, before anyone even thought modding would take them to stardom in the gaming industry (I won't cite the mediocre X-Men Quake 1 retail game that started off as a mod, because the team were forced into certain circumstances that wouldn't allow them to release an X-Men mod for free, plus no one really thought the retail game was inspirational anyway.) It was good back then; no one even thought of gaining money or even putting up their mod for retail consumption.

Nowadays, people have their sights mostly on how they can get into the gaming industry, with modding being the best gateway into that dream job. It has diluted the modding community considerably...

Eh, to keep it short, I'm disgusted by this move, mostly because it seems fundamentally contrary to what the modding community is all about. Cool, now he's earning money. His mod is also not the cool trinklet that it used to be, mainly because money is being generated at the expense of the community.

Now, I'm fine with modders getting hired by companies and creating something new, but being hired by Valve and then converting a mod to be used for retail consumption? This isn't even a total conversion like Red Orchestra!

Bah, I don't know. Best of luck to Garry nonetheless.

 

[polyguns]

noone ever brings up the point i made earlier. not ccusing anyone esp gary since its programming, and programming doesn't require alot of expensive software, but with mods in general, I have a problem with them going retail unless the content is made with licensed software. Its an easy point to overlook in the debate, but since hl2 didn't come with milkshape or wings exporters (though there are some i think) i would assume most people are using payed for applications. this is an unfair advantage that the mods would have in the marketplace. they don't pay for talent, or software, but get to profit the same as a game dev?

this could also be very beneficial though. maybe someone wants to test the source engine, they could pay 10 bucks for gmod without buying hl2? or will hl2 be required?

anyways, gary deserves money for his work, but i think the proper way to do other mods would be to catch them early in development, and pay them to develop a game, then charge. that way the devs can pay for software themselves, and not have to work other jobs to support their modding time. that way it would all be on the up and up. maybe im wrong though.

 

[^Ben]

XSI has a mod version, there are free alternatives to photoshop, also alternatives to visual studio.

There are free alternatives to everytool out there.

 

[tovlakas]

Hmm, so cyborgguineapig, you are stating that the those of us opposing this move are immature and should stop whining because the teams put hard work into the mods and therefore should be paid.

I've spend about 500 hours so far working on a map for Fortress-Forever for free. Should I expect to be paid for this as well, since it has been a shitload of hard work? Obviously not. Just because you work hard on something doesn't automatically mean you should expect to be paid, and doesn't NEGATE the rights of those who expect not to pay for it to whine when you suddenly begin charging for it. Everyone who begins working on a mod does so WITH THE FULL KNOWLEDGE that they are doing this for FREE. Nobody FORCES someone to make a mod, so if they choose to do it for free, they don't have the right to expect to be paid for it later. That's like me telling you, "Hey I will wash your car if you want, I realize you won't pay for it but that is ok, I enjoy washing cars." You accept my offer and are later greeted with me coming to your door with a bill for the carwash. When you then say that you do not want to pay for it, a bunch of my reach-around-giving, anime-avatared friends pipe in with "OMG WTF?! You expect to get this done for free? Grow up loser." Pretty ****ing obnoxious and deserving of a severe ass-kicking if you ask me.

Hugh_Jazz, you stated that those of us who bought HL2 expressly for the loads of free modifications that would come out have "irrational expectations." ...Huh? How is that wrong to expect? I wouldnt buy HL2 for the game itself, I dont even like Half-Life very much. like the mods that come out for it. I dont want to pay for those mods. That is why i do not buy other retail games. the only games that i have currently are halflife 1 and 2, and that is for the mods. I like mods because they are not made for profit, but instead for the love of modding itself, and made in amateur developers' spare time. I much prefer playing somethign that I can say to myself, "Hey, if I dedicated enough time to it, I could make something similar to this, cool!" Enjoying modifications is a bit different than games, at least in my opinion. 50% of the enjoyment for me comes from being able to witness game development, something pre-mod-era most people didn't get an opportunity to see, first-hand, and being accomplished by average people like myself, not celebrity-status professionals like Valve or EA, etc. If I WANTED to spend money on professional-quality games, then I would buy a ****ing game. I don't, I want to play modifications, and I want the knowledge that modifications will continue to be made with the same selfless motivation that they have been made with in the past. It's bad enough that mods nowadays are focusing on catching huge player bases instead of just making their damn games, but now we have to worry about mods focusing on trying to gain Valve's monetary support. This is not what mod making originated as, and should never evolve into.

As it stands, while I disagree with Garry's decision, mostly I am angered by the morons who are ripping on anyone who complains about having to pay for a mod. If someone makes something knowing full well they are doing it for free, then we have the right to expect it for free. if you think its unreasonable, then feel free to shut the **** up. If you want to charge for your mod, say so from the beginning, that way people like me can quickly ignore it and focus on other mods that remind us of the half-life golden age: made as a hobby by people who had a passion for creativeness, story-telling, and artwork, not by career-seeking hopefuls simply attempting to fill their resume or pockets.

In closing, people like cyborgguineapig, Hugh_Jazz and Raziel-Jcd need to seriously shut the **** up. Especially Raziel-Jcd; good lord you are a pathetic prick, you anime-geek douchebag. How about you get off of your high-horse.

 

[polyguns]

well thats a bit harsh


remember everyone,these are only games. theres no need to be mean to other human beings over such trivial aspects of life


gary and valve have the right to do what they want to do in regards to their property. sucky thing is that the retail and mod players probably won't be ableto play GM together anymore, that is a loss.

remember gaming is suppose to be fun, when people get mean on each other over games, it defeats the meaning of the game itself.

 

[LOOM]

kudos to Garry.
Ive already played the the best and main aspects of the mod in the free version.So why should i purchase via Steam?

The only reason i could think of to pay $10, is gratitude/respect to garry for the work he put in. - which could be done as a donation on his site anyways.

if offlimits does well (hopefully it will:naughty in the mod community, id be happy for valve just to provide a download via steam.
I think Mods should only go retail, if they are a licensed developer, and as stated before - not made made by some hl2 fans in their mothers basement.

GarrysMod should of been a ticket for garry into the Game Developing Business imo.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

snipped invective

If you can't remain civil during a debate, it automatically negates any point you may have had.

 

[A.I.]

my only objection with mods going retail is the fact that 99% of them are using unlicensed software, and are living in their parents basements. this isn't good imo esp for competition in the market place. a normal game company has to hunt investors, buy computors, license software from windows to 4ds max, license engines etc. a mod has to pirate windows, piratd 3ds max, pirate photoshop, then they charge for the product? i don't like it a bit. if you go commercial, all your software should be legit, and you should have to prove it before valve ever enters into a deal with you, otherwise valve is just as responsible for the pirating as you are.

i remember in college when our professors started out (years ago mind you) with their business, they would have to show their clients their maya licenses in order to do business. thats the way it ought to be. modders , we all know, don't purcahse licenses, and selling a product made on stolen licenses is wrong any way you look at it.

I would agree with this objection. But on the other hand, XSI has released a great tool in collaboration with Valve, so Valve should have it covered concerning the content creation, apart from the texture tools.

Nevertheless I agree, pirated software is not a fair competition to some who do plunge thousands of dollars on such things as 3D software. Maybe that's why open-source could be considered more because we have already the complete Quake 3 source code, we have Blender3D, and we have GIMP. These are quite good enough programs (and code) to do a decent game, even sell it, under the GPL circumstances. Hell, even HL2 and COD2 were coded in the respect of the id's games.

 

[CrazyJeepDriver]

Im not going to buy it unless there is serious good stuff added in it.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

There's a school of thought that suggests that when someone goes legit, they have to licence their software, lest they get audited. In that respect, it kind of works out in the end.

 

[X-FacToR]

Hats off to gary's mod, making some money for something hes oviously good at. If you have a problem with this then simply don't buy it. Oh and if you think gary's mod is ripping off stuff from valve it doesnt really matter cause valve is getting half the profit from sales.

 

[Anable]

How about you get off of your high-horse.

It amuses me that you would use that phrase when you are the one citing the golden age of modding and how it was so much better under x, y, and z circumstances. Garry owes you nothing and he has a right to do what ever he feels like with his work. You want to give your work away for free? Awesome, more power to you. Garry wants to get something out of his? Awesome, that works too. You both have your own motivation and the only one on a high horse is the one that says his motivation is better and more justified than someone elses.

 

[keats]

As a mod developer myself, I thought I'd throw in my 2c. This is more a view on what modding looks like through my eyes. It is also relevant to the Erik Johnson statement mods should release sooner & more often, which in our case, I'll disagree with any day.

For starters, there is some romanticisation on HL2 modding going on that throws off the views of many. "Modding is something you do out of passion, out of love of the game". That's how you start modding. Me and some friends brainstormed a gameplay idea we'd love ourselves the same week HL2 was first announced, and kind of started right away. My co-leader/lead modeler simon didn't even know how to model or texture then yet [those who follow us knows how much he's grown since then]. We were all hyped up, cause hey, in a few months, 30 september iirc, we could start modding for real and get something out soon. You probably hear me coming: enter one year HL2 delay. Strike one. It's a lot harder to get people interested for your idea if you're modding for a game that's delaying indefinately [Although I'm glad we're not a DNF mod ]. Long periods of team inactivity, being blocked because you yourself can't skin decently yet and you need a texture artist, no animators... motivation starts to wane.

So then, HL2 is released. Great game, finished in one day of leave, give or take. Physics, omg. Story left me a bit lacking, and it was no HL1 when it comes to immersion; but the engine: right choice. I dived into the SDK as soon as I could. Very expansive SDK, a vast amount of possibilities, so naturally, you want it all. Then you start to see the SDK isn't hardly as documented as it could be. Source code is well-written, but still, a few pointers here and there would've been nice (pun not intended). Model polycounts are fairly high for amateur standards. Animations are done nicely and easy to understand, but if you want a default set of Source animations it's a lot of work already. So basically you have an enormous amount of work ànd figuring out to do before you have even a basic gameplay with fully custom content going (we got at that point only by the end of 2005). Point is, we're almost three years old. The initial motivation, hype and passion are long gone for me. Why am I still working hard on it? Because I have invested too much in it, and want it finished, ASAP and with high quality. I'm working now as though I have to meet a deadline each day.

Point two. Very few people, not even my entire own team, realize the amount of work is put in a total conversion mod. I've sacrificed a lot of my spare time for the past three years, and *all* of it the past year. I have a dayjob, so basically I work every night until I literally fall asleep with my laptop on my lap, I work all weekends, I work on holidays (christmas? modding. christmas eve? modding. Sad, but true.) At work, I often skip lunch to quickly compile that player model, make a hud element, or try to fix a bug. When I take days off from work, I typically spend my day modding. And that's just me. I'm sure my co-leader simon spends about the same amount of time modding as me; and we have an entire team working on it (but then, they're not half as active as I'd wish ) So please realise, modding a mod on such a modern engine, with so much custom content, is a sacrifice, and can not be compared to how it was in the old days. At all.

So, to get on topic, I hopy garry gets a lot of paying customers, cause I'm sure he deserves it. People pay more a month for an online mmorpg that destroys their lives, so 10$ for a fun game with a decent shelflife, is a very good deal for gamers. And I feel the best TC mods out there like INS, BM:S etc, deserve it just as much as Garry.

[Before I get quoted on this: do I think we will go retail? No. In the best case scenario, where we'd hit off seriously and Valve contacted us, would I consider it? Hell yes. But either way, my greatest reward will be to join an unknown public server of my own game, and have a good time playing it].

 

[dys-Fuzzy]

I'll be cheering for Garry the moment this is announced on Steam news. Until then, it's all pie in the sky to me.

 

[footsteps]

I have lost all respect for Valve. They are turning into one of those companies that will do anything to raise some quick cash without thinking of the longterm effect on customer loyalty. Steam is the perfect tool to release incomplete, buggy software to make a quick buck. Case in point: dod:source.

Needless to say, I am not buying episode 1, nor 2, or 3, or whatever number they get up to before people realize they are buying a product, instead of art.

 

[UltimaApocalypse]

I have lost all respect for Valve. They are turning into one of those companies that will do anything to raise some quick cash without thinking of the longterm effect on customer loyalty. Steam is the perfect tool to release incomplete, buggy software to make a quick buck. Case in point: dod:source.

Needless to say, I am not buying episode 1, nor 2, or 3, or whatever number they get up to before people realize they are buying a product, instead of art.

You don't belong here.

 

[garry]

As a mod developer myself, I thought I'd throw in my 2c. This is more a view on what modding looks like through my eyes. It is also relevant to the Erik Johnson statement mods should release sooner & more often, which in our case, I'll disagree with any day.

...

The initial motivation, hype and passion are long gone for me. Why am I still working hard on it? Because I have invested too much in it, and want it finished, ASAP and with high quality. I'm working now as though I have to meet a deadline each day.

I think this is totally what Erik was getting at. A lot of modders set the bar too high for their initial release. The first GMod release added a crossbow that roped things together and that's it.

I tend to worry about the models/materials/maps last - but I suppose that's the nature of GMod.. so different strokes for different folks.

I can't really think of a single mod that succeeded by holding all of their stuff back until it was 'done'. Dystopia I guess held off a lot until they were at a decent level (Until they had all of their gameplay shit coded in anyway). Natural Selection held back I think - but if I remember right it was plagued with bugs on release but came up to scratch with a few iterations. And obviously CS was like 4 guns and a complicated ammo buying simlulator.

I think if you see that you can't complete your mod at the current rate your best bet is to scale back and get something released. Your motivation will go up 500% once people play your game.

 

[Asknoone]

I have lost all respect for Valve. They are turning into one of those companies that will do anything to raise some quick cash without thinking of the longterm effect on customer loyalty. Steam is the perfect tool to release incomplete, buggy software to make a quick buck. Case in point: dod:source.

Needless to say, I am not buying episode 1, nor 2, or 3, or whatever number they get up to before people realize they are buying a product, instead of art.

Haha, ok.

 

[footsteps]

You don't belong here.

Agreed. I just had to blow some steam (no pun intended) because this garry fiasco (not garry's fault) was the straw that broke the camel's back. I am no troll though so I won't be coming back here. I am done with hl2 and anything steam.

*goes back to playing oblivion*

 

[Hugh_Jazz]

keats has the right idea here, I think. I personally shouldn't say all that much since I'm not all that involved in the whole modding scene, and could never become motivated enough to try it, but I realize how much time these people put on their mods. I still believe that anyone who buys a game for the mods that are sure to be made is buying the game for all the wrong reasons. I say again, I feel no one should expect to get free content. We are incredibly lucky to have these people make these great mods for us to play, but I wouldn't even go close to calling them selfless, even though they're not "forcing" us to pay. Pretty much anyone would ask money if they could, and the ones who can't will instead use these mods as a bridge into actual moneymaking gamedeveloping.

Badge of Blood and Dystopia are good examples, as they are mods, or TCs, that are looking to be sold retail when they are finished(correct me if I'm wrong here again). What's so wrong with that? If they can pull it off, congrats and more power to 'em. I'd buy both games given the chance, since they both have bitchin' ideas and Dystopia has pulled it all off really well.

I could go on, but I'd probably end up repeating myself. What I'd like to say is really well thought up in my head, but it's hard to put it on paper.

 

[Tamer17]

Garry could have just said no , you know.

Let's face it , the mod community is dead since HL2 was out.
With HL1 we had They Hunger trilogy , USS Darkstar , Heart of Darkness , Timeline trilogy , Wanted and alot more , including TC's.

A year and a half after HL2 we pretty much have nothing , few medicore and short sp map-packs at best. There are 2-3 mods that are actually promising with all the others are trying to find the "next big thing" in the MP aspect leaving SP desterted.
Hey , when the most anticipated mod is a remake ( though stunning one) it says all there is to say.

Yes , I know that in these time making quality mod is harder and more time consuming and all of that but the bottom line is that we have nothing to look at and play.
Teams went commercial , other are trying to capture the next big thing in MP , others are even not making games , just sandboxes of fooling around.

No one filled the gap , and I as a player who likes very much SP mods have almost nothing to look forward to.

 

[Mutley]

Garry could have just said no , you know.

Would you like some free money? Oh ok, nevermind.

 

[TheMastahC]

I have lost all respect for Valve. They are turning into one of those companies that will do anything to raise some quick cash without thinking of the longterm effect on customer loyalty. Steam is the perfect tool to release incomplete, buggy software to make a quick buck. Case in point: dod:source.

Needless to say, I am not buying episode 1, nor 2, or 3, or whatever number they get up to before people realize they are buying a product, instead of art.

You're a complete moron. I'm glad you're leaving.
One down, many many more to go.