Genetic Determinism

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Lawnmower233

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I'm not sure if this has been posted before. I didn't bother to look so sorry if it has.

So anyways Genetic Determinism to me is like a religion to what like religion is to most non-practising parishioners, for example; in otherwords it's just like a set of beliefs I live my life by and believe in wholeheartedly, like most people would with there own set of religious beliefs.
Although, I am capable of doubting it at times and will accept any arguments to the contrary and try and forumlate an argument to counter them. Anyways that's why like I made this thread. I wanted to hear people's opinions to why the common concept of Genetic Determinism is wrong to them. I'm not here to undermine people's Christian/Islamic/[other religious affliation's] beliefs but merely to hear people's argument's against Genetic Determinism (or for it if you want):

"the belief that genes largely determine physical and behavioral phenotypes." Wikipedia.
 
Believing in evolution or genetic determinism isn't the same as a religious faith because it's a belief based on evidence. People reject the idea that we've evolved over millions of years through natural selection because it'd contradict everything their holy book tells them, and some people really do believe the Bible or any other holy book tells them how to live. It may do, but I wouldn't want to know or meet those people, someone who can have that much faith in something that could well be a work of fiction is not someone to be trusted.

As soon as you reject the idea of some inner soul controlling our lives then you have to look to the material and chemical properties that make us who we are. I'd say our genes certainly have an influence there.
 
The reason it's not considered a 'conventional' religion is that it doesn't force a dogma on you - it's just a statement of theory/research. There's no inherent philosophy (other than a strict maintenance of objectivity).
 
Exactly, it's not so much a belief as it is a lack of ignorance.

The fact that genes have a large deal of impact on development is basically irrefutable; the question is to what extent that impact takes.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
Exactly, it's not so much a belief as it is a lack of ignorance.

The fact that genes have a large deal of impact on development is basically irrefutable; the question is to what extent that impact takes.
Click to expand...

Yup. Are our personalities the sum of our genes or the sum of our experiences? Most likely a mix of the two, but which side is most influential.
 
AJ Rimmer said:
Yup. Are our personalities the sum of our genes or the sum of our experiences? Most likely a mix of the two, but which side is most influential.
Click to expand...

50/50, it makes the most sense based on the knowledge we currently have or don't have for that matter.
 
we're talking about nature vs. nurture here, right?
 
I doubt it's remotely quantifiable.
 
The more I read, the more I think genes have way more to do with it than they should. This is still an area of deep research though.
 
I'm not seeing anything deleted, so it must have been a connection snafu. Try it again.
 
mortiz said:
Believing in evolution or genetic determinism isn't the same as a religious faith because it's a belief based on evidence. People reject the idea that we've evolved over millions of years through natural selection because it'd contradict everything their holy book tells them, and some people really do believe the Bible or any other holy book tells them how to live. It may do, but I wouldn't want to know or meet those people, someone who can have that much faith in something that could well be a work of fiction is not someone to be trusted.

As soon as you reject the idea of some inner soul controlling our lives then you have to look to the material and chemical properties that make us who we are. I'd say our genes certainly have an influence there.
Click to expand...

Just because some religious fools say that dinosaurs lived along with humans, doesn't mean that all believe in that bullshit. I for one believe in a more complicated creation than that, too complicated to be just explained to people living in times of the prophets. God took a different approach on that matter, as if He'd be explaining things about life to a 4year old.
 
I'm a naturist.

Actually, I like to think we can defy our own genetics but I just liked the sound of it.

*runs naked through a field*
 
I believe in science, but i also believe there is stuff going on that we simply cannot perceive. Much in the same way we cannot noramlly perceive radio waves or how a starfish lives its life completely blind and deaf. As such the possibilities of existance are too vast and too vague for me to rule out the existance of powerful entities beyond our immediate perception.

As for genetic determinism. While i do believe our genes have influence in how we live our lives, the strongest impression i get from people that try to apply it to themselves is that they simply do not want to take responsibility for their actions.

For example, people that just play the genetics card to try to pass of the stigma of being gay. Personally i think its a load of crap, maybe it comes into play some of the time, but certainly not all the time like how its made to be. I got nothing against gay people, i do have something against people that try to shirk responsibility for their own actions.
 
Flyingdebris said:
I believe in science, but i also believe there is stuff going on that we simply cannot perceive. Much in the same way we cannot noramlly perceive radio waves or how a starfish lives its life completely blind and deaf. As such the possibilities of existance are too vast and too vague for me to rule out the existance of powerful entities beyond our immediate perception.

As for genetic determinism. While i do believe our genes have influence in how we live our lives, the strongest impression i get from people that try to apply it to themselves is that they simply do not want to take responsibility for their actions.

For example, people that just play the genetics card to try to pass of the stigma of being gay. Personally i think its a load of crap, maybe it comes into play some of the time, but certainly not all the time like how its made to be. I got nothing against gay people, i do have something against people that try to shirk responsibility for their own actions.
Click to expand...
So you chose to be heterosexual?
 
What Solaris is trying to say - minus the horrific rhetoric that sends so many 'discussions' here into the intellectual gutter - is that there's considerable scientific proof suggesting sexuality is genetically determined, and not a lifestyle choice.
 
I believe in causality. Every "choice" you make is determined by previous events that have only occured due to events previous to them and so on and so forth. It's possibly one of the most depressing outlooks on life. :(
 
To me the dicussion of genetic determenism and environmental causes makes me think of serial killers and sociopaths, like Jeffrey Dahmer, Eddie Gein, Charlie Manson, these fellas. Were they born like that? Most certainly one would suggest that Gein in particularly was driven insane by his unhealthy relationship with his mother (though it is believed he didn't actually start killing/digging up the dead until after his mother died) but was it just that? Had his mother been loving and caring could he have been a completely normal person? I know these are extremes and may be exceptions to the rule of genetics but it makes for interesting thinking in my book.
 
AJ Rimmer, d'you write those comics? Good stuff dude, had me chuckling :)
 
humans are geneticly defaulted to reproduce, we wouldn't have gotten this far if we haven't. I acknowledge that. I also already acknowledged that yes, there are cases where some people are indeed born with a tendency towards being gya, testosterone/estrogen ratios and all that.

However i don't believe that everybody that is gay is gay because "their DNA made them that way." I just think that a good number of the time its taken up as a lifestyle choice for personal reason relating to nuture rather than nature. A case of since it is presently more sociably acceptable to be gay in our society, many people see it as a viable lifestype option. Remember we have higher thinking ability and consciously suppress deep rooted genetic instints every day in order to find our place in relation to society.

At any rate, I still think people should be responsible for their own actions. For instance, in real life I'm predisposed to procrastination, maybe its my genes, I don't know. However i do know that when the time comes to do something or put it off, I can freely choose. The option to start something is not grayed out by my genetics. If i **** up a project and turn it in late because I procrastinated too long. Thats entirely my fault and i will accept resonsibility for it.

To make a long story short, genetics have influence on us, but they don't rule us. Be a man/woman and take up responsibility for what you do.
 
Ironically, logic tells me that if being gay was genetic then natural selection dictates that these genes would soon be bred out of the gene pool.
Think about it.
 
neptuneuk said:
Ironically, logic tells me that if being gay was genetic then natural selection dictates that these genes would soon be bred out of the gene pool.
Think about it.
Click to expand...
That actually makes some sense.
However, it could just be caused by a mutation that happens a lot.
 
Solaris said:
That actually makes some sense.
However, it could just be caused by a mutation that happens a lot.
Click to expand...

This is possible too. After giving it a little more thought, it is possible that the gene could be recessive and people could be 'carriers' of the 'gay gene' but the phenotype will only be expressed when a person inherits two recessive alleles of the gene.
 
Walter said:
Just because some religious fools say that dinosaurs lived along with humans, doesn't mean that all believe in that bullshit. I for one believe in a more complicated creation than that, too complicated to be just explained to people living in times of the prophets. God took a different approach on that matter, as if He'd be explaining things about life to a 4year old.
Click to expand...

I didn't say every religious person rejects scientific facts like evolution and that the earth is really billions of years old, but a significant minority do and that's the worrying part.

As for homosexuality, I believe it to be an intermittent mutation caused by certain conditions in the mother’s womb rather than some hereditary trait. The reason for this is that there's no evidence that homosexuality is passed down through generations. For example two completely heterosexual parents (which is generally the case, but not always, homosexuals sometimes raise family's) can have a homosexual baby, similarly homosexuals who raise a family can have completely heterosexual offspring. Also rarely will more than one sibling in a family be homosexual. I don't think it's a coincidence either that there are more gays than lesbians. Boys are probably more susceptible to the mutation.

Human's are in a unique position to go against the rub so to speak when it comes to our Darwinian heritage. For instance, contraception goes against the very idea of Darwinism.
 
mortiz said:
I didn't say every religious person rejects scientific facts like evolution and that the earth is really billions of years old, but a significant minority do and that's the worrying part.
Click to expand...
Very worrying indeed, anyone who rejects logic and rational thought can become dangerous
 
mortiz said:
And the really scary part is I'm not even sure about it being a minority :eek:
Click to expand...

In the USA anyway... In the UK we're typically safe from stupid religious nuts, apart from the exploding ones anyway..... -_-
 
Walter said:
Just because some religious fools say that dinosaurs lived along with humans, doesn't mean that all believe in that bullshit. I for one believe in a more complicated creation than that, too complicated to be just explained to people living in times of the prophets. God took a different approach on that matter, as if He'd be explaining things about life to a 4year old.
Click to expand...

This is delicious. :imu:

"I don't believe in those RETARDS with their flintstones version of the past. No, I believe FAR MORE REASONABLY that an ultracomplicated spaceman zapped all these trillions of trillions of particles out his mind, yet is really bad at public speaking."

No joke: shouldn't God be able to convey his ideas to an audience unhindered by the need to be patronizing?

-God is omnipotent; he can do anything.
-God creates man.
-God cannot communicate his ideas to man in any cogent, understandable way.
-God defeated himself.
-God is not omnipotent; he can't do anything.


Also, if you believe in evolution, then why did god make man in his image?
More specifically, what does god walk on that he would need feet? What did he walk on before the concept of "ground" existed?
God shouldn't be bipedal because, if he is omnipotent, why would he have use for such clumsy tools as hands?
Or why a mouth through which to consume and an anus through which to defecate? God has no use for the fuel of air or food.
Being omniscient, why would he have any of those sensory structures like the ear and the eye?
Both are crude structures and god predates both light and sound.

Remember, god looked like us before the earth was created. There is no reason for he to have the exact same, or even remotely similar, evolutionary features that we have.
Yet the bible tells us repeatedly, and in decidedly non-metaphorical contexts, that god is of a basic human shape.

So if you aren't a "fool"* then you have to ask why God would be shaped like an advanced ape in ways that are fundamentally a direct contradiction of evolution.
And if god did not evolve (which he clearly did not), then what created him?

Here's where someone says that god is unknowable because we cannot grasp what he said. Which brings us back to my original point: that we must believe everything God said, else he would defeat himself and be eliminated from the pantheon.

So, evolution, according to any correct interpretation of the bible, must be false.



*Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
 
It's both really. Genes play a huge role in determining how happy you are. In that area its about 80 percent genetic. In other areas its closer to 50/50.

I have no idea what you mean by its some kind of "religion" when it simply is not; That is the role of genes. That is what they do. That is what the evidence points towards. If you think genes don't play any role in your physiological or physical phenotypes then you are either uninformed or an idiot.
 
Flyingdebris said:
humans are geneticly defaulted to reproduce, we wouldn't have gotten this far if we haven't. I acknowledge that. I also already acknowledged that yes, there are cases where some people are indeed born with a tendency towards being gya, testosterone/estrogen ratios and all that.

However i don't believe that everybody that is gay is gay because "their DNA made them that way." I just think that a good number of the time its taken up as a lifestyle choice for personal reason relating to nuture rather than nature. A case of since it is presently more sociably acceptable to be gay in our society, many people see it as a viable lifestype option. Remember we have higher thinking ability and consciously suppress deep rooted genetic instints every day in order to find our place in relation to society.

At any rate, I still think people should be responsible for their own actions. For instance, in real life I'm predisposed to procrastination, maybe its my genes, I don't know. However i do know that when the time comes to do something or put it off, I can freely choose. The option to start something is not grayed out by my genetics. If i **** up a project and turn it in late because I procrastinated too long. Thats entirely my fault and i will accept resonsibility for it.

To make a long story short, genetics have influence on us, but they don't rule us. Be a man/woman and take up responsibility for what you do.
Click to expand...

:| i wish i'd be that good in my writings.
 
whoa whoa, Mecha, God has created man in his image but not biologically. If God looked like us before we were out of Eden, then we'd have to be omnipotent that time, and we weren't. Therefore, it doesn't mean we looked like Him in that sense.

-God is omnipotent; he can do anything.
-God creates man.
-God cannot communicate his ideas to man in any cogent, understandable way.
-God defeated himself.
-God is not omnipotent; he can't do anything.
Click to expand...

Maybe because He hasn't created US omnipotent.

*Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Click to expand...

Stop quoting that or i'll be doing that on purpose.
 
You = genes + experiences

If I make a clone of you grow up in a different environment, he will be a different person.

But genes do have an important role in who you are. I mean, look at dogs, their genes determine their character to a great degree. A sheepdog really has a built in tendency to herd stuff.
 
neptuneuk said:
Ironically, logic tells me that if being gay was genetic then natural selection dictates that these genes would soon be bred out of the gene pool.
Think about it.
Click to expand...

Solaris said:
That actually makes some sense.
However, it could just be caused by a mutation that happens a lot.
Click to expand...

Diseases like huntington's, cystic fibrosis and sickle cell anaemea wouldn't exist were that the case. Genetic disorders aren't confined to mutations of single genes, either.
 
Walter said:
whoa whoa, Mecha, God has created man in his image but not biologically. If God looked like us before we were out of Eden, then we'd have to be omnipotent that time, and we weren't. Therefore, it doesn't mean we looked like Him in that sense.
Click to expand...

What you just said doesn't make any sense.

What you look like has no impact on how much supernatural power you have. Omnipotent god has hands, legs, etc. All like a man.
Man has those same features, but is not omnipotent.

The question is why God would have the same features that humanity evolved specifically for use on Earth, if god lived in a void of empty space before the creation.

He would not have evolved that way, so what is the source of these features?

Maybe [god cannot speak to us in an intelligent way] because He hasn't created US omnipotent.
Click to expand...
Whether we are omnipotent is not relevant; God should have the power to make us fully understand his vital instructions.
There is absolutely no reason for an omnipotent god to be so bad at public speaking.

Stop quoting that or i'll be doing that on purpose.
Click to expand...
Flaming is against both the forum rules and God's law. Desist.
 
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Click to expand...
Plural. Therefore, by the Bible, there was more than one god. I just thought I'd throw that in.
 
riomhaire said:
Plural. Therefore, by the Bible, there was more than one god. I just thought I'd throw that in.
Click to expand...
Yet God is always referred to as "He" in the singular...

Certainly an omnipotent being would not make silly grammar mistakes like that.

Methinks the Biblical Scholars did not know their grammars... :rolleyes:
 
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