German soldier refuses to develop software for Iraq

[CptStern]

German soldier refuses to develop software for Iraq


"....argued that his conscience would not allow him to develop software that could be used -- either directly or indirectly -- in a war he viewed as a violation of international law. He claimed his superior could not guarantee that the software he was developing would not be used in Iraq by German forces stationed in Kuwait, or German soldiers flying in Airborne Warning and Control System surveillance airplanes or even by U.S. forces stationed in Germany"



"The Federal Administrative Court in Leipzig, Germany, ruled Wednesday in favor of the soldier, ranking his freedom of conscience higher than the command of a superior. "


when does your duty to your country end and your own personal beliefs begin?

 

[No Limit]

when does your duty to your country end and your own personal beliefs begin?

When you develop enough conscience to think for yourself; aka you grow out of being a kool-aide drinking Republican and come in to the good side.

 

[Ennui]

Your personal beliefs rule over your duty to your country.

 

[CptStern]

When you develop enough conscience to think for yourself; aka you grow out of being a kool-aide drinking Republican and come in to the good side.

maybe their kool-aide is spiked with Sodium Pentothal, that would explain a lot ..especially that vacant zombie-like devotional fanatical gleem in their eye :E

 

[Solaris]

What a brave man.

I wish more soldiers would do this. I totally agree with the rulling.

 

[Icarusintel]

i'm wondering why i should give a shit about this guy

 

[CptStern]

i'm wondering why i should give a shit about this guy

because you stand to learn a thing or two from him ....like not blindly following orders

 

[No Limit]

i'm wondering why i should give a shit about this guy

I'm wondering why you would make a post that doesn't add anything to this thread. We give a shit as we respect when people take a huge risk to protect their personal beliefs; that might not mean much to you so do us all a favor and just stay out if you have nothing to add.

maybe their kool-aide is spiked with Sodium Pentothal, that would explain a lot ..especially that vacant zombie-like devotional fanatical gleem in their eye

Wow, good point; explains a lot. :E

 

[Rupertvdb]

The guy is being a complete pussy frankly. I am by no means a supporter of the war but if you are a soldier producing software for the army then you have to expect it to be used in conflicts. There is, as we are all aware, a conflict in Iraq and even if you disagree with the war you should not have a problem in helping your fellow soldiers be that little bit safer/stronger/better prepared in the combat they are going to be involved in regardless of your feelings on the matter.

 

[Razor]

Your personal beliefs rule over your duty to your country.

You sign a contract when joining the British military to say that you will put the duty to your country above your own believes, your family, your friends, your loved ones and your life. And you swear that in an oath to the Queen.

 

[CptStern]

You sign a contract when joining the British military to say that you will put the duty to your country above your own believes, your family, your friends, your loved ones and your life. And you swear that in an oath to the Queen.

...nowhere does it say that you have to participate in criminal behaviour. Not so sure about germans but canadian soldiers have to uphold the law of the land ...if germany said it was an illegal war he had a basis for refusing to participate in the program ...because it was unlawful. Therefore he hasnt done anything wrong ....which is exactly what the german courts ruled

 

[Razor]

...nowhere does it say that you have to participate in criminal behaviour. Not so sure about germans but canadian soldiers have to uphold the law of the land ...if germany said it was an illegal war he had a basis for refusing to participate in the program ...because it was unlawful. Therefore he hasnt done anything wrong ....which is exactly what the german courts ruled

Ok, i don't see a problem with that at all. Does it say what his software was supposed to do?

 

[Icarusintel]

I'm wondering why you would make a post that doesn't add anything to this thread. We give a shit as we respect when people take a huge risk to protect their personal beliefs; that might not mean much to you so do us all a favor and just stay out if you have nothing to add.

he stood up for his own beliefs, wow, way to go, this shouldn't be applauded as something special, because everyone should stand up for their own beliefs, and if you don;t it's your own fault if you get caught in something like this, really, this shouldn;t be applauded, it should be expected

on the flip side, its just software, i don;t see people quitting software companies in the states en masse because their software may be used at some point in a war

 

[Recoil]

...if germany said it was an illegal war he had a basis for refusing to participate in the program ...

I don't think they declared it illegal.

 

[CptStern]

he stood up for his own beliefs, wow, way to go, this shouldn't be applauded as something special, because everyone should stand up for their own beliefs, and if you don;t it's your own fault if you get caught in something like this, really, this shouldn;t be applauded, it should be expected

if that were true, there'd be 1700 fewer deaths in iraq

 

[CptStern]

I don't think they declared it illegal.

well I dont know if it's officially or not, but here's some interesting tidbits:

"A prominent German professor of state and international law, Dietrich Murswiek, wrote in the Süddeutsche Zeitung: The standpoint put forward in the press that by giving orders for an attack without a mandate from the Security Council Bush is operating in a ‘grey area’ is false. Without express allowance through a new resolution, the war against Iraq is a banned war of aggression—a crime from the standpoint of international law.”


"The German constitution, for example, expressly forbids, under threat of punishment, any support for a war of aggression. The German government could be legally called to account for allowing the use of German airspace and territory by the US military."

 

[Icarusintel]

if that were true, there'd be 1700 fewer deaths in iraq

well, then there's a helluva lot of people who are responsible for the war cause they didn;t act

 

[CptStern]

too vague, please explain

 

[gh0st]

Im not in favor of the war either - but I dont think its unreasonable that, when you are in the army, that you do your job regardless. Frankly I would expect this in any European country (especially the farther east you go), so I'm not surprised. Even in Canada I think most people would see this as rediculous.

The German constitution, for example, expressly forbids, under threat of punishment, any support for a war of aggression

rofl... I wonder when that little addendum was added. 1946? Sadly we had to castrate the german people after we stomped their guts out.

 

[Icarusintel]

too vague, please explain

i said everyone should stand up for what they believe, you said basically that if that happened there'd have been no war in iraq, which means that everyone who didn;t stand up against the war is partly responsible for it, since you seem to be saying they could've stopped it

 

[CptStern]

yes if people actually took the time to look at the facts the war could have been prevented

 

[Icarusintel]

yes if people actually took the time to look at the facts the war could have been prevented

it's not a matter of facts here, its a matter of beliefs, which do not have to be based on facts at all

 

[CptStern]

well it better be ...especially when deciding whether or not to wage war on another country ...in any event the german courts agreed that his personal code of ethics superceded his duty to his country

 

[Icarusintel]

well it better be ...especially when deciding whether or not to wage war on another country ...in any event the german courts agreed that his personal code of ethics superceded his duty to his country

good for them, bully for him, he doesn;t get his ass kicked out, but it's still a double-edged sword

 

[Recoil]

I wonder when that little addendum was added. 1946?

The whole constitution was made in '49 :upstare: Now get back into history class.

 

[gh0st]

The whole constitution was made in '49 :upstare: Now get back into history class.

Dur dur sorry I dont care about post-war Germany. Surprising since I've been in Advanced Placement classes since I was a freshman, and never once have I learned/wondered/cared about the new german constitution.

 

[Recoil]

I know, school couldn't cover all goddamn countries in the world :E was just reacting on your irony.

 

[MjM]

it's not a matter of facts here, its a matter of beliefs, which do not have to be based on facts at all

Ewww. Believe you can fly?

Im not in favor of the war either - but I dont think its unreasonable that, when you are in the army, that you do your job regardless. Frankly I would expect this in any European country (especially the farther east you go), so I'm not surprised. Even in Canada I think most people would see this as rediculous.
rofl... I wonder when that little addendum was added. 1946? Sadly we had to castrate the german people after we stomped their guts out.

Ewwwwwwwwww.


What a dipshit you are Gh0st. Kinda funny that you bring up WW2. So if you were in the German army ~1944, and being made to participate in genocide, based on your rationale you would have done it.

The resurgence of the church and the willingness to be a tool in the armed forces, is thinking for your self really that stressful?

 

[Pesmerga]

Meh, whatever floats the guy's boat. If he spends his final hours of life reflecting and he can think to himself, "I did the right thing" and pass away with a smile on his face, good for him. I don't think anyone else can really expect to do anything more than what they think is the right choice, and whether you look at his act with either admiration or detestment is purely a judge of rights and wrong, things that are extremely vague in the case of human affairs, if indeed right and wrong exist at all.

 

[gh0st]

Ewwwwwwwwww.


What a dipshit you are Gh0st. Kinda funny that you bring up WW2. So if you were in the German army ~1944, and being made to participate in genocide, based on your rationale you would have done it.

Wait the german army participated in genocide in world war 2? Hahahaha. I'll go ahead and rephrase it for you so you dont look any dumber than you do now. You mean that if I were in the SS or Gestapo ~1944, would I have participated in genocide? I dont know, I wasent there. You werent either. What if's in history are always bullshit, because theres a trillion possible outcomes - you learn this from 1st grade.

Frankly, you are in no position to speak upon it because clearly, you have no idea what even happened. The distinction between nazi monsters and wehrmacht soldiers is the difference between night and day - you wouldent know that, too much day of defeat and remedial history has led you to the conclusion that if you were german during the mid 40's you were a racist nazi actively participating in genocide. Moreover comparing nazi genocide with the war in iraq is laughable at best. Dont ever call me a dipshit again. In fact, just dont speak again. Your the same type of arsehole who thinks all soldiers are evil killing machines. Well **** you idiot.

 

[MjM]

Read what i said more carefully. The fact that you are in the army, if asked(commanded) to participate in genocide (i dont think it's unreasonable to assume the army played a part), by your rationale, you would "do your job regardless".

So what i am saying is that it is better to not be a tool.

 

[Foxtrot]

Good thing this guy isn't in the infintry, that is how people die.

 

[gh0st]

Read what i said more carefully. The fact that you are in the army, if asked(commanded) to participate in genocide (i dont think it's unreasonable to assume the army played a part), by your rationale, you would "do your job regardless".

So what i am saying is that it is better to not be a tool.

Read what i said. Iraq is genocide?

 

[CptStern]

1.8 million dead during the sanctions is a awfully big number

 

[gh0st]

1.8 million dead during the sanctions is a awfully big number

come on stern, dont hold back. tell me the war in iraq is a genocide! dont bring up sanctions, or the 500k number. its boulderdash. even you know that 1.8 million killed incidentally (im making a rather large concession for arguments sake here) is quite different from >6 million killed as a result of their race/color/religion/creed/etc. we may agree with the war, but if we cant agree on this then i'm thinking were on sad grounds here my friend.

Now, since youre implying it, prove it.

gen·o·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Go ahead! I eagerly await your reply.

 

[MjM]

It was only called genocide after it had already occurred. While it was a conscious decision by Hitler and the Nazi's to wipe out Jews, homo's, etc. i don't think they would go around calling it genocide at the time, hence their rhetoric, "Final Solution" etc.. While i can agree its not genocide in Iraq, it is an unjust war, and as CptStern points out with respect to sanctions, many have and will suffer the consequences of this "War on Terror".

 

[gh0st]

It was only called genocide after it had already occurred. While it was a conscious decision by Hitler and the Nazi's to wipe out Jews, homo's, etc. i don't think they would go around calling it genocide at the time, hence their rhetoric, "Final Solution" etc.. While i can agree its not genocide in Iraq, it is an unjust war, and as CptStern points out with respect to sanctions, many have and will suffer the consequences of this "War on Terror".

and many have suffered the consequences of saddams regime. who are you to argue whats worse? oh i agree its an unjust war, but if i were over there with my ass in the grass i would most certainly fight in it. in fact, i'll probably be over there in a few years. not fight because you dont agree with it? thats for politicians to decide, NOT the average soldier. if we had regular level people at a corporation like me quit because they consciensciously object to cleaning up horse shit, then where in the hell would our society be? i dont think its ok for a soldier not to do his or her duty because if they dont, GOOD people are more likely to die. iw ould sure as hell rather an insurgent died in iraq than a US soldier. I think most of the world feels that way too... at least i desperatly, desperatly hope so.

 

[CptStern]

come on stern, dont hold back. tell me the war in iraq is a genocide! dont bring up sanctions, or the 500k number. its boulderdash. even you know that 1.8 million killed incidentally (im making a rather large concession for arguments sake here) is quite different from >6 million killed as a result of their race/color/religion/creed/etc. we may agree with the war, but if we cant agree on this then i'm thinking were on sad grounds here my friend.

Now, since youre implying it, prove it.


Go ahead! I eagerly await your reply.

while I do admit that iraq may not be genocide according to this definition

"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group"

I still stand behind this:

1.8 million dead during the sanctions is a awfully big number

 

[gh0st]

"The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group"

Stand behind it all you want. Fact is, we didnt go into iraq to exterminate any national (iraqi), racial (arab), political (misc), or ethnic group. not in any way shape or form. by all means dig up a declassified document that proves me wrong though.

 

[CptStern]

Stand behind it all you want. Fact is, we didnt go into iraq to exterminate any national (iraqi), racial (arab), political (misc), or ethnic group. not in any way shape or form. by all means dig up a declassified document that proves me wrong though.

you're correct ...you have as much disdain for every iraqi, not just the various ethnic groups ...you're an "equal opportunity" occupier :E