Hamas wins Palestinian election

[Solaris]

Fatah forces tried to disarm anyone who was resisting the occupation.

And show me when I've said I support the killing of civillians?

 

[Bait]

I am seriously waiting for you to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up children and the elderly, Solaris. You want to sing their praises, go do it yourself, and leave the f*cking sane world alone. I usually don't judge people by their political views, I like stern despite how he does everything liberal, and I liked gh0st despite his fanatical nationalism. But I'm not judging you on your political views-- because it becomes much less political and a lot more idiotic when you refer to terrorists that suicide bomb buses filled with children as "Freedom Fighters." Seems like you only have these viewpoints to get yourself attention.

So please, blow yourself up in the name of the IRA or Hamas or whatever the hell you want to keep defending.

I don't agree with what Palistine or Isreal does most of the time. I really wish that one or the other would realize that it is just a f*cking piece of land and that they need to stop being so crazy over it. I wonder why, when it is considered the "Holy Land" to each of them, it has been turned into a bloodbath for centuries by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike.

And what defines a freedom fighter then, I ask you? Granted, civilians, under no circumstances, should come under fire. But what of a bomb going off near a military check point/military patrol, etc? Don't dare for a second try to speak in manner which effectively shuts out the inherent wrong doings which Israel is blatantly guilty of, while labelling the Palestinians as suicide bombing nut jobs. Palestinians have no effective military force to counter Israel, and during the past conflicts they weren't initiated by Palestine because Palestine wasn't a strong enough state to do such a thing. So it is individuals who take it upon themselves decide to fight against occupiers. Whether their methods are right or wrong are up for debate, but nonetheless they fight with whatever minimal resources they have. Now, before you begin to twist my words into my support for sucide bombings and the killing of innocents, I am going to put it outright that I don't agree with them in the least. I also want people to understand that under no circumstances are they allowed to talk about the "evil, terroristic, militant Palestinians" while refering to Israel as a poor, oppressed victim in the whole thing.

Having said that, I don't expect people in the west to understand this kind of situation. The fact that you refer to Palestine, and Jerusalem in particular I would infer, as simply a piece of land shows your lack of understanding (or lack of will to try and understand) the importance of the area. Such is the importance of that "****ing piece of land" that people are willing to shed their blood over it. It is understandable for others to fail in comprehending this, but they shouldn't let that failure be a blank check to open their mouths about something they don't understand. Who are you to say that Jerusalem is unimportant?

Bottom line, don't dumb things down in an attempt to wrap your own logic around it.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Im sensing some personal frustration coming from Solaris.
I havent heard a single strong argument. Only "Israel shooting ambulances, israel F#$%^King this and that".
No sense of an objective look coming and/or historic view.
I think this debate is on a downward spiral to a flame war. Sad because its an interesting subject to talk about.


O, and Bait, just a little "right" or "wrong" issue.
-An Israeli soldier who deliberatly shoots a palestinian child = wrong
-A palestinian suicide bomber who deliberatly blows up women and children = wrong
Agree?
-So an organisation that supports and spawns these deliberate bombings of women and children = not wrong?

Call it resistance or not, targetting civilians = wrong, and its not just "my opinion", The Geneva Convention forbids the deliberate targetting of civilians.
So legally the Hamas = wrong.

 

[Yuri]

And what defines a freedom fighter then, I ask you? Granted, civilians, under no circumstances, should come under fire. But what of a bomb going off near a military check point/military patrol, etc? Don't dare for a second try to speak in manner which effectively shuts out the inherent wrong doings which Israel is blatantly guilty of, while labelling the Palestinians as suicide bombing nut jobs. Palestinians have no effective military force to counter Israel, and during the past conflicts they weren't initiated by Palestine because Palestine wasn't a strong enough state to do such a thing. So it is individuals who take it upon themselves decide to fight against occupiers. Whether their methods are right or wrong are up for debate, but nonetheless they fight with whatever minimal resources they have. Now, before you begin to twist my words into my support for sucide bombings and the killing of innocents, I am going to put it outright that I don't agree with them in the least. I also want people to understand that under no circumstances are they allowed to talk about the "evil, terroristic, militant Palestinians" while refering to Israel as a poor, oppressed victim in the whole thing.

The term "freedom fighters" can obviously be interpreted literally, as those who fight for their freedom. But when you say that term, it grants an amount of respect to those you are referring to and shines them in a light of righteousness. It suggests that they are fighting for a noble and just cause. Which is debateable, wouldn't you agree? And what "freedom" is being fought for when innocent civilans are directly targeted? Indirect civilian causualties is obviously horrible and wrong, but I'm sure most of you will agree that there is a difference between the two.

And when did I refer to Isreal as the helpless victims and Palestinians as the horrible evil militants? I didn't. At all. You assumed that I thought that. Which I don't. Please stop responding to a viewpoint which I don't have.

Having said that, I don't expect people in the west to understand this kind of situation. The fact that you refer to Palestine, and Jerusalem in particular I would infer, as simply a piece of land shows your lack of understanding (or lack of will to try and understand) the importance of the area. Such is the importance of that "****ing piece of land" that people are willing to shed their blood over it. It is understandable for others to fail in comprehending this, but they shouldn't let that failure be a blank check to open their mouths about something they don't understand. Who are you to say that Jerusalem is unimportant?

Bottom line, don't dumb things down in an attempt to wrap your own logic around it.

Thanks for assuming that I'm dumbing things down for myself because I'm too stupid to understand it. Of course I'll never know too much about what is going on over there, I guess you live much closer to all this than I do, and you will always be much more well-informed than I. But that doesn't mean I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter.

I realize that the "piece of land" that is being fought over is obviously being fought over for a reason. Whether that reason is religion, heritage, cultural, or because people don't want to move from their childhood homes, I still don't understand why so much fighting has to occur. I wonder, is it worth it? The entire history of that land has been fighting and bloodshed. There has to be some reason that makes that area a constant warzone. If you ask me, I'd say that reason is mainly religion.

So I guess you are right. I don't understand it. I don't understand why people would get to the point of brutally murdering each other over a piece of land. If someone wanted the town I live in so badly that they use terrorist tactics, killing civilians on purpose, I would leave my town for anywhere else. Likewise, if someone forcefully used a military to remove me from my home, I would be upset, but I would probably leave without thinking of killing even them, and especially not killing their civilians. Anything to get away from the violence.

 

[Sulkdodds]

-So an organisation that supports and spawns these deliberate bombings of women and children = not wrong?

Hel-lo, he didn't state or say or imply or in anyway indicate that he thought that. :dozey:
The problem with this thread is everybody is too quick to assume everybody else supports one group just because they hate the other. :|

 

[Bait]

The term "freedom fighters" can obviously be interpreted literally, as those who fight for their freedom. But when you say that term, it grants an amount of respect to those you are referring to and shines them in a light of righteousness. It suggests that they are fighting for a noble and just cause. Which is debateable, wouldn't you agree? And what "freedom" is being fought for when innocent civilans are directly targeted? Indirect civilian causualties is obviously horrible and wrong, but I'm sure most of you will agree that there is a difference between the two.

And when did I refer to Isreal as the helpless victims and Palestinians as the horrible evil militants? I didn't. At all. You assumed that I thought that. Which I don't. Please stop responding to a viewpoint which I don't have.

Thanks for assuming that I'm dumbing things down for myself because I'm too stupid to understand it. Of course I'll never know too much about what is going on over there, I guess you live much closer to all this than I do, and you will always be much more well-informed than I. But that doesn't mean I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter.

I realize that the "piece of land" that is being fought over is obviously being fought over for a reason. Whether that reason is religion, heritage, cultural, or because people don't want to move from their childhood homes, I still don't understand why so much fighting has to occur. I wonder, is it worth it? The entire history of that land has been fighting and bloodshed. There has to be some reason that makes that area a constant warzone. If you ask me, I'd say that reason is mainly religion.

So I guess you are right. I don't understand it. I don't understand why people would get to the point of brutally murdering each other over a piece of land. If someone wanted the town I live in so badly that they use terrorist tactics, killing civilians on purpose, I would leave my town for anywhere else. Likewise, if someone forcefully used a military to remove me from my home, I would be upset, but I would probably leave without thinking of killing even them, and especially not killing their civilians. Anything to get away from the violence.

Since I hate breaking up posts, I won't. I'll just respond by point.

First, I never said you called Palestinians anything. If you read my post more closely, you would see that. I was saying that to sound like a rational person keep in mind both cases without ommiting too much,and that does not necessarily mean you. I am not silly enough to try and wedge around what people say to much, at the risk of sounding like a damn fool.
Now, as far as "freedom fighters" go, it is a debatable term indeed. And it shouldn't be used as a blanket term either. Bombers who detonate charges in a market are not freedom fighters. Israeli soldiers riding around in a tank with several inches of steel to protect them from rocks are not freedom fighters. However, Palestinians who engage Israeli forces, without endangering civilian life, MUST be regarded as freedom fighters. Their land is occupied by a foreign power, and they fight to remove such a power. The success or the impact of such encounters have are sure to be minimal in realistic terms, all things considered, yet you cannot strip away the fact they are indeed fighting to remove an unwanted force from their homeland.
PLEASE understand I do not condone the attacks upon innocents, whether they be Palestinian or Israeli. Likewise, people would be wise to realize the fact that Israel should be prosecuted for war crimes. Saying anything otherwise is false.

And I hate to say it, but you were infact simplifying the situation to completely concrete and physical terms. The fact of the matter is the land in question is so full of history that you nor I could hope to understand it all. Bearing that in mind, don't imagine yourself important enough to discredit its importance, or its significance.
Also, just because you would act differently in the situation you described truly means nothing in realistic terms. Fortunately for yourself, you may never have to worry about such a thing. What that also means is you will be deprived of the experience that many Palestinians have felt. And don't think that Palestinians haven't tried to escape the violence. The refugee problem is massive, and Palestinian refugees still are not able to return to their homes, whether they want to or not.
Lastly, I agree with you as far as the fighting over this land is concerned. This conflict should put humanity to shame, for not having found a peaceful resolution sooner. The blame is on both sides of the border, as well as on the international community. The violence that has been going on is inexcusable, and this includes both Palestinians and Israelis.

O, and Bait, just a little "right" or "wrong" issue.
-An Israeli soldier who deliberatly shoots a palestinian child = wrong
-A palestinian suicide bomber who deliberatly blows up women and children = wrong
Agree?
-So an organisation that supports and spawns these deliberate bombings of women and children = not wrong?

Call it resistance or not, targetting civilians = wrong, and its not just "my opinion", The Geneva Convention forbids the deliberate targetting of civilians.
So legally the Hamas = wrong.

Now, before you begin to twist my words into my support for sucide bombings and the killing of innocents, I am going to put it outright that I don't agree with them in the least.

Ugh...... Yeah, I think that says it all. I hope anyways.

 

[Ome_Vince]

seems people love misreading posts.
I wasnt assuming Bait said this, i was stating what can be considered right or wrong. As a common starting point.
I directed it at Bait since he started the "right" or "wrong" issue. In general i should have removed the "bait" name from that post.
Now, do we start on the UN and Geneva convention common start?

 

[Eg.]

Also in the news, armed Fatah holdouts storm government offices. Palastinian Civil War anyone?

One more quip, what do you think will happen with Hamas, as Israel supplied all the water and electricity to the West Bank and Gaza strip?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

what i know is that isreal is occupying palestine, it's a war, both sides fight, but palestine for it's right, and isreal for it's ****ed up-ness.

Wow you seriously don't even know what's going on, do you..

Wikiepedia Yom Kippur War, Suez War, Six Day War, and then learn about the conflict so you actually can justify your position. I'm sure you won't feel the same after learning.



"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." (by Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, in anticipation of victory over the new Jewish state in 1948 by the five invading Arab armies. This quote is described by Isi Leibler (1972) and mentioned in letters to the New York Times in 15 October 1951, and 28 August 1958.

"I declare a holy war, my Muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!" (Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, and head of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, the original quote purportedly comes from a 1948 radio broadcast by the Mufti)

After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs radiostation proclaimed (May 18, 1967): "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

"Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." (Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad (May 20, 1967)

"If Israel embarks on an aggression against Syria or Egypt...The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel." (Gamal Abdel Nasser's speech to Arab Trade Unionists (May 26, 1967)

On May 30, 1967, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." (Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, 1972, p.60.)

After Iraq joined the Arab military alliance in June 4, its president Abdur Rahman Aref announced: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map."

 

[Yuri]

The funniest thing about this debate, Bait, is that I agree with you, and it seems that you agree with me.

Since I hate breaking up posts, I won't. I'll just respond by point.

First, I never said you called Palestinians anything. If you read my post more closely, you would see that. I was saying that to sound like a rational person keep in mind both cases without ommiting too much,and that does not necessarily mean you. I am not silly enough to try and wedge around what people say to much, at the risk of sounding like a damn fool.
Now, as far as "freedom fighters" go, it is a debatable term indeed. And it shouldn't be used as a blanket term either. Bombers who detonate charges in a market are not freedom fighters. Israeli soldiers riding around in a tank with several inches of steel to protect them from rocks are not freedom fighters. However, Palestinians who engage Israeli forces, without endangering civilian life, MUST be regarded as freedom fighters. Their land is occupied by a foreign power, and they fight to remove such a power. The success or the impact of such encounters have are sure to be minimal in realistic terms, all things considered, yet you cannot strip away the fact they are indeed fighting to remove an unwanted force from their homeland.
PLEASE understand I do not condone the attacks upon innocents, whether they be Palestinian or Israeli. Likewise, people would be wise to realize the fact that Israel should be prosecuted for war crimes. Saying anything otherwise is false.

Excuse me if I misunderstood you, but you really should be a bit more respectful.

Don't dare for a second try to speak in manner which effectively shuts out the inherent wrong doings which Israel is blatantly guilty of, while labelling the Palestinians as suicide bombing nut jobs.

That quote seems directed at me. I read your post quite carefully as you obviously know what you are talking about, and probably know more on the matter than I do. That doesn't change the fact that the sentence I just quoted was in your response, and your response was directed at me. Throwing things directed at other people in the middle of a post directed at someone makes no sense.

I could agree with your use of the word "freedom fighters." It didn't seem to me that Solaris was talking specifically about the more "honorable" Palestinians. But what freedom are they fighting for? They lost this territory during a war which was begun by them... This is actually a question, not a statement blanketed as one.

And I do understand that you are not defending those who murder civilians. Don't worry.

And I hate to say it, but you were infact simplifying the situation to completely concrete and physical terms. The fact of the matter is the land in question is so full of history that you nor I could hope to understand it all. Bearing that in mind, don't imagine yourself important enough to discredit its importance, or its significance.
Also, just because you would act differently in the situation you described truly means nothing in realistic terms. Fortunately for yourself, you may never have to worry about such a thing. What that also means is you will be deprived of the experience that many Palestinians have felt. And don't think that Palestinians haven't tried to escape the violence. The refugee problem is massive, and Palestinian refugees still are not able to return to their homes, whether they want to or not.
Lastly, I agree with you as far as the fighting over this land is concerned. This conflict should put humanity to shame, for not having found a peaceful resolution sooner. The blame is on both sides of the border, as well as on the international community. The violence that has been going on is inexcusable, and this includes both Palestinians and Israelis.

The last paragraph just sums up my opinion, which is confusing, because you seem to be disagreeing with me. Heh. I didn't mean to say anything discreditting the significance of the land. I was just wondering, why is it worth this?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Thats an interesting remark.

I didn't mean to say anything discreditting the significance of the land. I was just wondering, why is it worth this?

Another reason why i believe there's more than territory involved. Its a religious thing. Jewish-Islamic clash.

 

[Bait]

Erestheux, believe me when I say I mean no disrespect. Should I have disrespected you, I apologize.

With that being said, too often do people talk about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict while omitting in favour of their bias. What I was saying, and again I apologize if it seemed directed at you, is that people should wisen up to the fact that such a track of mind will get no one anywhere. Everyone is aware of the awful things handfuls of Palestinians do, but fewer are aware of the horrid actions undertaken by the organized military force,being the Israeli army, occupying a foreign land. That is a great injustice, in my opinion, because if people can't understand that it isn't only those Palestinians causing ruckus over there, how can anyone want to put together a solid peace plan?

Basically, the only thing I was disagreeing with you was the fact you really simplified the importance of the land. It's understandable why you wouldn't understand, and in all honesty I am no way very knowledgeable about it either, however it should still seem clear enough that regardless of the quarrels of its inhabitants, that land holds history and importance for many peoples. Why is it worth it? Because sometimes when belief in something is so great it may exceed your desire to live. Try talking someone out of loving that land is like trying to talk someone out of loving their children, for some.

Had I one wish, I would want to lift up the entire of the western world and drop them into Palestine/Rwanda/Afghanistan/Chechnya etc. Such an experience would change the face of this earth, I believe. Shame reality has to be so brutal some times.

EDIT: Ome_Vince, try researching about temple mount and Masjid Al-Aqsa. Their importance in Judaism and Islam, respectively, are paramount.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Israel is by no means as innocent as you make it out to be. Israel should be held accountable for war crimes against humanity. The manner in which Israel in the past and present has dealt with the palestinians is abhorrent. By no means am I saying that palestinians are free of blame either, but don't go making this seems as though Israel is the poor, ol' victim in this whole mess.

Oh horseshit, this whole thread is dedicated to making the two violent parties in discussing with this topic, [Hamas, Israel], look like victims. Don't Christian me with sobering up some of the thoughts revolving around Israel, but don't also deny the truth in that Israel formed due to Hitler's Holocaust, and the Arab's Legions first crusade that touched off the Jewish State's existence.

That does'nt make Israel innocent of some of its crimes no doubt, but it does spare it the guilt, the prefabricated lied about guilt that Israel is out to devour the middle-east.

It never attacks, but it always retalliates. That much we all know for certain.

It isreal didn't create so much anger theese Nutjobs wouldn't have much support.

And how'd they get you, a fellow nutjob to support their cause?

Hamas already said they would not give up violence, and labeled it as Western 'blackmail.'

Thinking of that, isn't that in essence an admittance of total wrongdoing anyway? I mean, someone has to have done something wrong which you have proof of anyway. I don't really consider it morally repugnant to blackmail someone into not murdering civilians.

True.

First, why did HAMAS win the election

A military coup that ripped the Fatah's election right from under them. They managed the polling stations and they managed the lies that occured at them.

Next, why does HAMAS have such a stance on Israel anyways?

Since the first terror Infitada (sp), groups like Hamas have always purposed themselves on blood lusting and destruction. Groups like these, Hamas, the Shutzstaffeln, the Gestapo, etc. are all born out of mindless rage, and the mindless rage they've drank themselves to is also born out of the situations that have occured around them.

Which is why those such groups should'nt be given possesion of something so delicate as peace. Why, you ask? Because they're not up to the mental responsibility and physical responsibility of handling it. They instead mean to break it and continue and old Crusade which died on the burning fronts of T-55 Tanks led by Jordan into the Golan Heights. Nassar, Anwar Saddat, they're crusades are over.

Finally, is it even possible for dialogue to occur between mediators and HAMAS and Israel?

Well the mediators and Israel are at the table ... but where's Hamas?

Oh I know! Reloading their AK's and preparing for another assault on Israel. Peace Schmeace!

eople are too quick to rush to the conclusion that HAMAS is a belligerent group with no other motive than the sheer pleasure of killing.

Uh, no where not. And here's some of their pleasure killings:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/003271.html

During a particularly brutal spate of honor killings in early 2005, five Palestinian women were murdered in four separate incidences over a short period of time. Faten Habash spent six weeks in hospital after she threw herself from her family's fourth floor apartment window. Upon her return home, her father bludgeoned her to death with an iron bar.

Two days later, Maher Shakirat attacked his three sisters. The eldest, Rudaina, was eight months pregnant and had been admonished by her husband after he claimed she'd had an affair. Maher forced his sisters to drink bleach before strangling them. The youngest, Leila, escaped but had serious internal injuries from the effect of the bleach.

Rafayda Qaoud shared a bedroom in her Ramallah home with her two brothers. After they raped and impregnated her, she gave birth to a baby boy who was adopted by another family. Her mother then gave Rafayda a razor blade and ordered her to slash her own wrists. When she refused to commit suicide, her mother pulled a plastic bag tightly over her head, sliced open her daughter's wrists and beat her with a stick until she was dead.

Palestinian feminist Abu Dayyeh Shamas claims that: "Men feel they have lost their dignity and that they can somehow restore it by upholding the family's honour. We've noticed recent cases are much more violent in nature; attempts to kill, rape, incest. There is an incredible amount of incest." One women's group reported over 400 cases of incest in the West Bank alone in 2002.

Hamas's one of several hundred pleasure killings. Here's another link that details it more directly.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/womwan.htm

The new force, called the Anti-Corruption Unit, is believed to be behind the gruesome murder over the weekend of Yusra al-Azzami, a 22-year-old university student from the northern Gaza Strip.

Her "crime" was that she was seen in public with her fiance .

Hamas's "morality" patrolmen first spotted the young couple strolling along the beach in Gaza City, together with Azzami's younger sister. After enjoying the spectacular sunset over the sea, they got into the future husband's car and started driving towards Azzami's home.

According to eyewitness accounts, five masked gunmen who were in another car gave chase, opening fire at Azzami, who was sitting in the front seat next to her fiance. She died instantly.

The fiance and sister were later brutally beaten and moderately injured by the attackers.

Some more for you?

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/saa27.htm

Hamas Terrorist Activities
Hamas is one of the most extreme organizations in its attitude toward Israel. Leaflet #65 (October 1990) called upon local residents to murder Jews and burn their property. "Every Jew or settler is a target and must be killed. Their blood and their property are forfeit."

http://www.jewishexponent.com/ViewArticle.asp?ArtID=2258

Last week's failed suicide bombing in Tel Aviv was carried out by a student at the Al-Najah University in Nablus. Those Jews with long memories may recall that it was at that institution of higher learning that an "art exhibit" mocked the brutal murder of Jewish mothers and children at a Jerusalem pizza restaurant. Palestinian violence doesn't breed in a vacuum.

Despite the spin of the "experts" urging us to ignore the reality of Hamas' rise to the top, such crimes are not aberrations. As long as Palestinian culture honors terror - and its politics legitimizes murder - any hope for peace is just an illusion.

Seems to be the new pleasure killing thing going on -- they're like Sith. When they'res no Jedi to fight, they turn on each other.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58486,00.html

June 1, 2001: At a seaside disco in Tel Aviv, 21 killed.

Aug. 9, 2001: At the Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem, 15 killed.

Dec. 1, 2001: In a pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, 11 killed.

Dec. 2, 2001: On a bus in the coastal city of Haifa, 15 killed.

March 9, 2002: At the Moment cafe in Jerusalem, 11 killed.

March 27, 2002: At the Park Hotel in Netanya, 29 killed.

March 31, 2002: At a restaurant in Haifa, 15 killed.

May 7, 2002: At a pool hall in Rishon Letzion, south of Tel Aviv, 15 killed.

June 18, 2002: On a bus in Jerusalem, 19 killed.

Here's some more for you ...

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/images/photos7.3/8215_512.jpg
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/070304/nat_20040703071.shtml

Ali, the witness, said that after the charges against Abdel Razek were read out, the crowd of several hundred people chanted, "Execute him! Execute him!"

Palestinians said the man, a resident of the nearby village of Tubas, had been abducted from a hospital in the West Bank city of Jenin before the killing, and for an undetermined amount of time had been in the custody of militants who interrogated him.

In Tubas, relatives shunned the slain man even in death, refusing to claim his body from the authorities.

Here's some photos of there, "Pleasure Killings":

http://www.israel-wat.com/25.jpg -Man being Lynched
http://www.israel-wat.com/25a.jpg -500+ brutal murder and disembowelment of Israeli Prisoners
http://www.israel-wat.com/sheep1.jpg Hamas decorate animal like Israeli Minister, preparing to kill it
http://www.israel-wat.com/sheep2.jpg Hamas behead animal to show strength against Israel
http://www.israel-wat.com/sheep3.jpg Continuation
http://www.israel-wat.com/sheep4.jpg Finish
http://www.israel-wat.com/tuvia2.jpg Hamas attacks Jewish boy on his way to school, he barely lives through it
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1a.jpg Terrorists prepare to kill Civilian
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1b.jpg Terrorists almost finished preparing
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1c.jpg Dead victim, with executor Brandishing bloody pistol
http://www.israel-wat.com/p2d.jpg Terrorists execute civilian
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng4.jpg Hamas executes civilian
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng3.jpg Body and continued shooting of civilian
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng5.jpg Tieing same civilians body to car to be dragged through Street
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng6.jpg Dragging of bodies by Hamas
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng2.jpg Boys stand by and spit on body of dead Civilian, killed by Hamas
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng9.jpg Civilian surrounded and lynched by Hamas militants
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng10.jpg Civilian begs for help
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng11.jpg Executed Civilians by Militants
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng13.jpg Dragging of civilian bodies through the streets
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng15.jpg Hamas dragging body of executed Civilian through streets
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng14.jpg Crowd hangs and stabs body of Civilian, executed none other then by Hamas

Pleasure killings. You wanted some so, here some are!

I am in no way crazy about them myself, but still try to understand the rhyme and reason for their actions.

Do you believe in the executions of prisoners, and the killings of Civilians? Ever try to understand why people do the things they do? The most basic conclusion anyone can come down to, is that war and violence excite the human mind beyond basic resolves and morality.

What can be garnered from the images I've provided you, is the savagery that beats in the heart of these Hamas terrorists, and the type of war they'll unleash on all people: Guilty or Innocent.

Primarly the Innocent. They use the guilty for their own soldiery.

There fighting for the freedom of the oppressed, the tatics that are used are illegitimate sometimes

And what would you do to shed some light on these "illegitimate" tactics? Illegitimate - Puh! You care nothing of them so long as they're winning a war.

I see the attacking of Isreali troops as a legitimate tactic, thats all, attacking civllians is rarely justified.

Attacking civilians rarely justified? And how do they justify the murder of civilian youth, and the use of them as an army? No matter how big or small, such innovations as the "Retarded Child Suicide Bomber" and the "Preschool Human Shield" are not as I consider justified weapons of war. They're exists no excuse for the manipulation of children into warfare, no matter how bad off the army thats using them is. Whats worse is the age and mentality of some the people chosen and manipulated into these positions of death -- exploitation on the highest degrees, without care to the youth or the existence of those lives on this earth. Nor of those they prepared them to take.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas.asx Here's Hamas's most recent word on its take to power, brought to you in part by PATV

Don't dare for a second try to speak in manner which effectively shuts out the inherent wrong doings which Israel is blatantly guilty of, while labelling the Palestinians as suicide bombing nut jobs.

Don't dare for a second step up on your soapbox and speak in manner which conveys to other people you know the absolute truth. You know nothing, and know even less about the inherent wrong doings by Palestine to Israel. Stop trying to label Israelis as kid killing nutjobs, will you?

Having said that, I don't expect people in the west to understand this kind of situation. The fact that you refer to Palestine, and Jerusalem in particular I would infer, as simply a piece of land shows your lack of understanding (or lack of will to try and understand) the importance of the area. Such is the importance of that "****ing piece of land" that people are willing to shed their blood over it. It is understandable for others to fail in comprehending this, but they shouldn't let that failure be a blank check to open their mouths about something they don't understand. Who are you to say that Jerusalem is unimportant?

Bottom line, don't dumb things down in an attempt to wrap your own logic around it.

Pardon me, but were dying at the hands of Fundementalist Theocracies around the globe. If God made the earth, why can't the Jews or Palestinians for that matter choose another Parcel of land to live on and make it equally as holy?

No, instead, they piss on the ground, stand on the pee soaked dirt beneath them with their arms folded accross their chest yelling, "Mine! Juerasalem! Gaza!"

To quote Natalya from Goldeneye 007, "Quit it! Your acting like ... boys with toys!"

Now ... for some comic relief; http://www.israel-wat.com/anti_jews.jpg Dont worry, its not anti-judaic. But the image is really ironic.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Excellent post Kerberos.