'Hello mum, this is going to be hard for you to read ...'

[Dog--]

I feel like I'm the only person on HL2.net with no feelings.. Whenever I hear a story like this I just don't care.. Not only is he fighting in a stupid war anyways, but I didn't know him, I have no personal connection to him, the hell do I have to be sad about? If I died and he heard about it, chances are this kid would think the exact same thing.

 

[Krynn72]

You're not. Usually threads like these just get me pissed that everyone is upset over this one person while not giving a shit about the thousands of others, and thinking they're not hypocrites when I say it doesnt bother me.

Hoho, that was angry sounding.

 

[Hobostomp]

In the final letter I was sort of waiting for the sad bit to come and make me cry but it never did. It is sad that he died though.

I never really feel sad for the people in the army - I mean, how stupid do you have to be to enlist in the first place? People see it as an act of bravery, but in truth it is the act of most pure selfishness - putting a family through all that fear. But this guy didn't feel sorry for himself either, so I guess that's OK.

 

[Absinthe]

In this topic, we act surprised that other humans have a capacity for sympathy.

And yeah, we shouldn't have an army because they should all be spending time at their mom's instead. Those stupid, selfish, fucking assholes.

 

[McGooTheWise]

It's selfish to enlist and go fight for what you believe in, and for the home you love. If you do that, you're a ****ing asshat, and Krynn hates you.

 

[Calhoun]

People see it as an act of bravery, but in truth it is the act of most pure selfishness - putting a family through all that fear. But this guy didn't feel sorry for himself either, so I guess that's OK.

You're right. Serving in the Military is very selfish because soldiers, who fight, and engineers, who construct and maintain machinery etc, or technicians, who maintain critical systems etc, are all unnecessary to this country.

A cop is another good example of a selfish thing to be. When you become a cop you're saying, "Hey Mom and Dad! I'm going to go out and do some difficult work daily. I could end up getting shot or killed, or in an accident pursuing a suspect, but don't worry!" -- and they worry to death. Upholding the law certainly does not constitute bringing worry upon your family.

I wouldn't want to be a laborer or a construction worker either. I'm not that selfish. A dangerous work environment, with hazardous machinery operating, where an accident could happen that would prematurely end a life at any time. I wouldn't force this fear onto anybody.

Logging is pretty bad too. I mean, going out into dangerous terrain and performing risky tasks, where the other people around you (or you) screwing up could leave you dead. I'm sickened.

A doctor? Pfft. This is just leaving you wide open to treat somebody who is ill, end up contracting a disease, and end up dead. This is outrageous! I would be so afraid if somebody I knew were a doctor.

I would list more stuff that is just selfish to do, but you can surely come up with more, and they'll all be useless like these. Oh wait. I'm not trying to attack you for your view, but I am trying to point out that there are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands, or even more) jobs that people go out and do every day. They're dangerous, and they are risky, and they are sometimes just stupid to do, but sometimes they are just plain necessary.

I don't want to sound negative or insensitive, and believe me when I read something like this that I can't help but think about what that person would've been like to meet and become friends with or hang out with or such sometime, but joining the military is not stupid and it's definitely not brave. The job does not define whether you're brave or heroic or cowardly, but different jobs can give you different opportunities (or slim to none) to show bravery and such. With that said, I think that this man was brave, and no, it wasn't because he joined the military, it's just because that's the type of guy he was.

 

[unozero]

You're right. Serving in the Military is very selfish because soldiers, who fight, and engineers, who construct and maintain machinery etc, or technicians, who maintain critical systems etc, are all unnecessary to this country.

A cop is another good example of a selfish thing to be. When you become a cop you're saying, "Hey Mom and Dad! I'm going to go out and do some difficult work daily. I could end up getting shot or killed, or in an accident pursuing a suspect, but don't worry!" -- and they worry to death. Upholding the law certainly does not constitute bringing worry upon your family.

I wouldn't want to be a laborer or a construction worker either. I'm not that selfish. A dangerous work environment, with hazardous machinery operating, where an accident could happen that would prematurely end a life at any time. I wouldn't force this fear onto anybody.

Logging is pretty bad too. I mean, going out into dangerous terrain and performing risky tasks, where the other people around you (or you) screwing up could leave you dead. I'm sickened.

A doctor? Pfft. This is just leaving you wide open to treat somebody who is ill, end up contracting a disease, and end up dead. This is outrageous! I would be so afraid if somebody I knew were a doctor.

I would list more stuff that is just selfish to do, but you can surely come up with more, and they'll all be useless like these. Oh wait. I'm not trying to attack you for your view, but I am trying to point out that there are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands, or even more) jobs that people go out and do every day. They're dangerous, and they are risky, and they are sometimes just stupid to do, but sometimes they are just plain necessary.

I don't want to sound negative or insensitive, and believe me when I read something like this that I can't help but think about what that person would've been like to meet and become friends with or hang out with or such sometime, but joining the military is not stupid and it's definitely not brave. The job does not define whether you're brave or heroic or cowardly, but different jobs can give you different opportunities (or slim to none) to show bravery and such. With that said, I think that this man was brave, and no, it wasn't because he joined the military, it's just because that's the type of guy he was.

I loled through out.

 

[Eejit]

Kids in army dies, what a shock.

Only orphans or criminals who have had their personalities wiped should be allowed to perform dangerous jobs such as policing, armed services btw.

 

[G(ordon)-man]

I hate this dystopian future. I hope we all die.

 

[repiV]

In the final letter I was sort of waiting for the sad bit to come and make me cry but it never did. It is sad that he died though.

I never really feel sad for the people in the army - I mean, how stupid do you have to be to enlist in the first place? People see it as an act of bravery, but in truth it is the act of most pure selfishness - putting a family through all that fear. But this guy didn't feel sorry for himself either, so I guess that's OK.

It's sad when people die young.

But it's truly tragic when they never really live in the first place because they were afraid of the consequences. The extreme risk-aversion which is permeating every aspect of our society is an insiduous cancer that's doing its best to ensure that we never achieve anything noteworthy again.

 

[15357]

Why is that?

Jesus H. ****ing Christ I have no ****ing idea.

 

[jverne]

what the **** is wrong with you people. i didn't really meant it in the full extent. i was just teasing a bit. yes...reading those letters was annoying but does one deserve to die because of it? NO!!!

now stop being dickheads and realize i wasn't being that serious.

 

[Pulse]

what the **** is wrong with you people. i didn't really meant it in the full extent. i was just teasing a bit. yes...reading those letters was annoying but does one deserve to die because of it? NO!!!

now stop being dickheads and realize i wasn't being that serious.

No jverne; you are the dickheads.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

now stop being dickheads

Holy irony toast.

Anyway, this made me tear up. Stupid ****ing pointless war.

 

[bam23]

Reading this kind of shit is hard. One of my best friends has joined the army and sends letters and text messages whenever he can. It would ****in suck to get a letter like the last one.

 

[nurizeko]

It seems to me that this guy was more a man than any of us here could hope to achieve in our lifetimes.

Hint: Being able to use a gun and willing to murder another human being doesn't make you a man. Pubic hair, a beard and knowing how to pick your fights and think for yourself makes you a man.


That was just a kid who died for nothing. Good for him. I'm sure he feels very manly, oh wait he's dead. :cheers:


Also FYI, the average British squaddie gives a rats ass about democracy let alone protecting it. Change, especially of the social variety comes slowly to the British military, these guys are one bad curry shy of voting BNP.


Frankly Britain needs to start gutting the army until its a shell of its former self, give all its funding to the Airforce and Navy, and Britain to accept that in this day and age all it needs is a strongish blue water navy with a healthy marine contigent for its global police actions. Seriously. **** fighting America's stupid wars.

The United States is the poor helpless nation with the military industrial complex that needs to be maintained and pitied, not us.

Leave America to fight the big wars, it has enough experience that it is about due to win one for a change.

 

[SimpleAssassin]

Such a shame, dont think there will ever be any justification for why we are still there

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

You're not. Usually threads like these just get me pissed that everyone is upset over this one person while not giving a shit about the thousands of others, and thinking they're not hypocrites when I say it doesnt bother me.

Hoho, that was angry sounding.

I think someone explained their feeling before, probably better than I will now. The idea is, we're presented with this story. We're given a context and primed for feeling. It's only natural to feel something because we're... included (Not really the word I want. WHATEVS, bro).

So the significance of this is that; I don't think it's really hypocritical. Or if it is, it's not really a Bad Thing. People are just showing a bit of empathy, which I think is fair enough. Sure we could care more about other people, but if we cared about everyone the way we do when we hear stories like this, then we'd be crippled by our own feelings. Also, it's not up to each individual to care about each other individual. I'm sure there are people who do talk about starving children. Of course, some people fall through the net and are forgotten by the rest of humanity.. It's very sad, although I can't say I think about it much.


Anyway, I'm only writing this post because I've been drinking.
lol durnk

 

[Musk]

Spelling didn't bother me too much, maybe because a lot of my friends spell like this kid also. Damn brave guy thou. Wow.

 

[Stigmata]

I think someone explained their feeling before, probably better than I will now. The idea is, we're presented with this story. We're given a context and primed for feeling. It's only natural to feel something because we're... included (Not really the word I want. WHATEVS, bro).

So the significance of this is that; I don't think it's really hypocritical. Or if it is, it's not really a Bad Thing. People are just showing a bit of empathy, which I think is fair enough. Sure we could care more about other people, but if we cared about everyone the way we do when we hear stories like this, then we'd be crippled by our own feelings. Also, it's not up to each individual to care about each other individual. I'm sure there are people who do talk about starving children. Of course, some people fall through the net and are forgotten by the rest of humanity.. It's very sad, although I can't say I think about it much.

Well-put.

Anyway, I'm only writing this post because I've been drinking.
lol durnk

Banned.

 

[repiV]

Hint: Being able to use a gun and willing to murder another human being doesn't make you a man. Pubic hair, a beard and knowing how to pick your fights and think for yourself makes you a man.

Hint: there's a lot more to being in the military than being able to use a gun. And killing in war is not murder.

That was just a kid who died for nothing. Good for him. I'm sure he feels very manly, oh wait he's dead. :cheers:

He obviously didn't die for nothing, he took his choices in life (the same kind of impetus that compels people to accomplish things like discovering America, inventing flight and putting a man on the moon - extraordinary choices which involve risk) and he ran out of luck. While he was alive, he lived the life that he had always wanted to. There is no inherent virtue in living a risk-free life.

If you avoid following your dreams for fear of death then you're not living, you're just existing. And contrary to common belief in this mollycoddled, pathetic modern world, the purpose of life is not to merely exist for as long as you can hang on.

Also FYI, the average British squaddie gives a rats ass about democracy let alone protecting it. Change, especially of the social variety comes slowly to the British military, these guys are one bad curry shy of voting BNP.

Nothing like a ridiculous sweeping generalisation to cement an argument. Not to mention that any social change experienced in this country over the last decade is almost entirely negative anyway.

Frankly Britain needs to start gutting the army until its a shell of its former self, give all its funding to the Airforce and Navy, and Britain to accept that in this day and age all it needs is a strongish blue water navy with a healthy marine contigent for its global police actions. Seriously. **** fighting America's stupid wars.

The army already is a shell of its former self, as are all the branches of our armed forces.

The United States is the poor helpless nation with the military industrial complex that needs to be maintained and pitied, not us.

Leave America to fight the big wars, it has enough experience that it is about due to win one for a change.

So make up your mind then if your problem is with the military or the government.

 

[Hobostomp]

But it's truly tragic when they never really live in the first place because they were afraid of the consequences. The extreme risk-aversion which is permeating every aspect of our society is an insiduous cancer that's doing its best to ensure that we never achieve anything noteworthy again.

I guess we have very different ideas about what constitutes an achievement.

Anyway, go tell this to his family, who is living with the consequences of what he did.

 

[Krynn72]

You're right. Serving in the Military is very selfish because soldiers, who fight, and engineers, who construct and maintain machinery etc, or technicians, who maintain critical systems etc, are all unnecessary to this country.

A cop is another good example of a selfish thing to be. When you become a cop you're saying, "Hey Mom and Dad! I'm going to go out and do some difficult work daily. I could end up getting shot or killed, or in an accident pursuing a suspect, but don't worry!" -- and they worry to death. Upholding the law certainly does not constitute bringing worry upon your family.

I wouldn't want to be a laborer or a construction worker either. I'm not that selfish. A dangerous work environment, with hazardous machinery operating, where an accident could happen that would prematurely end a life at any time. I wouldn't force this fear onto anybody.

Logging is pretty bad too. I mean, going out into dangerous terrain and performing risky tasks, where the other people around you (or you) screwing up could leave you dead. I'm sickened.

A doctor? Pfft. This is just leaving you wide open to treat somebody who is ill, end up contracting a disease, and end up dead. This is outrageous! I would be so afraid if somebody I knew were a doctor.

I would list more stuff that is just selfish to do, but you can surely come up with more, and they'll all be useless like these. Oh wait. I'm not trying to attack you for your view, but I am trying to point out that there are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands, or even more) jobs that people go out and do every day. They're dangerous, and they are risky, and they are sometimes just stupid to do, but sometimes they are just plain necessary.

Do any of those jobs lead to the killing of other people? Are any of those jobs done because of a sense of "duty to country." Being a soldier in an army is not a ****ing job. Its what you should become when the nation is under threat and requires people to fight to enable its survival. Thats not what the United States military is anymore. Its a job, and soldiers are more like employees of the government who is in the business of warfare for profit. It sickens me that we've returned to this state of civilization where we use warfare for financial and political gain rather than as a means of defending ourselves and actually saving lives.

 

[repiV]

I guess we have very different ideas about what constitutes an achievement.

Your idea of what constitutes an achievement is irrelevant, since you are not him.

Anyway, go tell this to his family, who is living with the consequences of what he did.

Sometimes, shit happens. And sometimes, it doesn't. The possibility of it doesn't mean you should avoid living your life to the full.

Do any of those jobs lead to the killing of other people? Are any of those jobs done because of a sense of "duty to country." Being a soldier in an army is not a ****ing job. Its what you should become when the nation is under threat and requires people to fight to enable its survival. Thats not what the United States military is anymore. Its a job, and soldiers are more like employees of the government who is in the business of warfare for profit. It sickens me that we've returned to this state of civilization where we use warfare for financial and political gain rather than as a means of defending ourselves and actually saving lives.

Professional armies have existed since Roman times. What are you talking about, and how on earth do you think you could form any kind of 21st century military from conscription?

 

[lefty]

I cried at those letters. Mostly the spelling.

 

[Krynn72]

What? Conscription? Where did I say anything about being conscripted?

And I know that professional armies have existed for a long time, but that was during a period where governments would march into other established nations and murder ****ing everybody and be like "all this shit is mine now bitch." I'd like to think we're a bit beyond that state, where the government wont literally hire people to do their killing for them. The Revolutionary war was a just war, where people joined an organized military formed for just reasons, and they didnt join for want of payment. WWI and WWII were also just wars as America marched to the aid of other countries to stop psychoface #1 and #2 from terrorizing and conquering other nations. Of course, then the nation got a taste for the profits to be had for engaging in warfare, and now we're going around terrorizing and essentially conquering other nations for sake of profits.

 

[Absinthe]

I guess we have very different ideas about what constitutes an achievement.

Anyway, go tell this to his family, who is living with the consequences of what he did.

Unlike some other areas of the world, our actions as independent adults are not and should not be beholden to the family unit.

It can be tough on families, but I shudder to think of where our Western civilization would lie if what we felt to be good and purposeful for ourselves had to be roadblocked and curtailed to the family's emotional sensitivities. We are expected to come into our own. Even if it may be painful or distressing to loved ones, we should have the maturity of respecting and understanding one's choices in life. Never mind the practical results of not having an army, which you have thus far seem wholly unconcerned about.

That you're trying to spin military service as a guilt trip is not only pathetic, but backward.

 

[repiV]

What? Conscription? Where did I say anything about being conscripted?

If being in the military isn't a job, then what is it?

And I know that professional armies have existed for a long time, but that was during a period where governments would march into other established nations and murder ****ing everybody and be like "all this shit is mine now bitch." I'd like to think we're a bit beyond that state, where the government wouldnt hire people to do their killing for them. The Revolutionary war was a just war, where people joined an organized military formed for just reasons, and they didnt join for want of payment. WWI and WWII were also just wars as America marched to the aid of other countries to stop psychoface #1 and #2 from terrorizing and conquering other nations. Of course, then the nation got a taste for the profits to be had for engaging in warfare, and now we're going around terrorizing and essentially conquering other nations for sake of profits.

There are several different issues here.

First of all, professional armies are more important now than they have ever been, since they are heavily dependent on technology and expertise - and it is possible to deploy force anywhere in the world in under 24 hours.

You can't draft a few thousand people to just "form an army", there are hundreds of different professions within the military and most of them require highly specialist skillsets and education. Fighter pilots have to train for seven years before they even get to start doing the job. There's more study involved than there is in becoming a doctor. For every fighter pilot there are 100 support staff to keep them in the air.

Even if you could just draft people to form an army, they would get utterly slaughtered by the professional army they went to face. How humane. Why do you think Britain won the Falklands war, despite being outnumbered 10 to 1 on the other side of the world? I'll give you a hint. Highly trained commandos vs conscripts.

War is not about numbers anymore, it's about technology and intelligence.
Notwithstanding the fact that without having a ready and prepared military force, you wouldn't have the chance to respond to a threat - you'd have lost the war before it even began. You seem to be under the impression that war works in the same way it did in medieval times.

Then there's the issue that the military does a hell of a lot besides fighting wars.

You're very naive if you think the US joined WW2 for selfless reasons. All nations act in their own interests. And for that matter, your claim that America "terrorises" and "conquers" other countries for the sake of profit is unfounded nonsense.

 

[VirusType2]

You're very naive if you think the US joined WW2 for selfless reasons.

Krynn72 wasn't saying that America went to war to defend other countries or people (selfless reasons), he was saying the military should be used for defense. And that's exactly what happened when we were attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. 4 days later Hitler declared war on the United States. We were in a war whether we wanted to be or not.

 

[repiV]

Krynn72 wasn't saying that America went to war to defend other countries or people (selfless reasons), he was saying the military should be used for defense of ourselves. And that's exactly what happened when we were attacked at Pearl Harbor.

That it should. Dismantling the military is hardly going to accomplish that aim though, is it? The best way to defend the nation (and save lives) is to have the biggest, baddest military of them all.

And criticism of how the military is put to use is one that should be directed at politicians, not soldiers.

That aside, people who complain about American military involvement overseas are more often than not found complaining the lack of American military involvement somewhere else overseas.

 

[Krynn72]

Where the hell do you keep getting drafting from out of my posts? I'm not saying we shouldnt have a standing army, im saying it should be used for morally better things than political maneuvering and financial profit. Things such as the defense of the nation, and foreign aid. And I am not naive to the interests of governments. I know the country went into WWII because it saw some way to gain from it, but there were, nonetheless, just reasons for fighting. In recent wars that we've engaged in, there has been little to no justified purpose. Saddam doesnt cut it for the Iraq war, Vietnam was completely unnecessary and unjustified. The war in Afghanistan was justified, but we've all but given up on that one because there is no means for profiteering, same with the military actions in Somalia.

EDIT: Thanks for getting my point Virus.

That it should. Dismantling the military is hardly going to accomplish that aim though, is it? The best way to defend the nation (and save lives) is to have the biggest, baddest military of them all.

And criticism of how the military is put to use is one that should be directed at politicians, not soldiers.

That aside, people who complain about American military involvement overseas are more often than not found complaining the lack of American military involvement somewhere else overseas.

Hopfully this post clarified what i meant in my previous posts. And perhaps those people complaining about the lack of military involvement in other areas, because those areas would have justified reasons for military actions, as opposed to this illegal war we've been so set on fighting. If we could provide aid to those who need it, rather than take action solely for our own profit, then yeah, I'd complain as well.

 

[VirusType2]

That aside, people who complain about American military involvement overseas are more often than not found complaining the lack of American military involvement somewhere else overseas.

Interesting observation. I have noticed this before... like with Iran and North Korea.

 

[repiV]

Where the hell do you keep getting drafting from out of my posts? I'm not saying we shouldnt have a standing army, im saying it should be used for morally better things than political maneuvering and financial profit.

That's exactly what you said.

Being a soldier in an army is not a ****ing job. Its what you should become when the nation is under threat and requires people to fight to enable its survival.

A standing army means that being a soldier IS a job.

Things such as the defense of the nation, and foreign aid.

The military has no inherent morality. It's a tool to be employed by the government for whatever purposes they deem necessary. I suggest you're taking issue with the wrong people.

Also, like it or not but the meaning of defence is open to interpretation, and so is the meaning of foreign aid. Definitions of both can be satisfied by wars overseas.

And I am not naive to the interests of governments. I know the country went into WWII because it saw some way to gain from it, but there were, nonetheless, just reasons for fighting. In recent wars that we've engaged in, there has been little to no justified purpose. Saddam doesnt cut it for the Iraq war, Vietnam was completely unnecessary and unjustified. The war in Afghanistan was justified, but we've all but given up on that one because there is no means for profiteering, same with the military actions in Somalia.

Vietnam? Given the context of the era, I'd say fighting communist states was both necessary and justified. Like the Korean War, as much as anything it was a proxy war with the Soviet Union. Today communism is essentially dead so we must have done something right.

Not that I'm saying Vietnam wasn't horrific. All wars are. Unfortunately the world works in cruel ways.

 

[repiV]

Hopfully this post clarified what i meant in my previous posts. And perhaps those people complaining about the lack of military involvement in other areas, because those areas would have justified reasons for military actions, as opposed to this illegal war we've been so set on fighting. If we could provide aid to those who need it, rather than take action solely for our own profit, then yeah, I'd complain as well.

Hang on, wind it back a second. There are justified reasons for military action in all these wars, and we do provide aid to those who need it.

Just because our intentions were less than honourable in Iraq does not mean that we are not providing a service by removing Saddam. The scale of humanitarian work being done in Iraq both past and present is enormous.

The reason that Iraq is a mess is two-fold - they're intent on fighting their own tribal battles, and we've been fighting half a war. It's a case of do-gooders killing with kindness - again. We haven't been able to fight the war properly because people in the West can't stomach real war anymore. But the whole point of war is to deploy extreme violence, and if you're going to do it then you have to do it properly otherwise it really is a waste of life. We could have secured and stabilised Iraq within months if we had the will to do so.

Interesting observation. I have noticed this before... like with Iran and North Korea.

Yeah. You can't have it both ways. Personally I would prefer isolationism where practicable. Some of this world's nations and cultures are so far behind us in terms of civilisation, development and thought process that they simply aren't fit to occupy the same stage as us. The only difference between large parts of Africa and the Middle East, and medieval Europe is they have access to technology that was developed by Europeans.

 

[Krynn72]

That's exactly what you said.

Being a soldier in an army is not a ****ing job. Its what you should become when the nation is under threat and requires people to fight to enable its survival.

A standing army means that being a soldier IS a job.

Ok, this is my fault for communicating poorly. I didn't mean a job in the literal sense. Technically, if you're getting paid for your services then its a job, which I have no qualms with. But I dont believe that military service should have the same job mentality as say, an engineer, a salesman, etc where your job is undertaken primarily as a means for earning money. It should be something more, sacred (for lack of a better term). It should be something you join out of principle. Which a great many soldiers do not.

The military has no inherent morality. It's a tool to be employed by the government for whatever purposes they deem necessary. I suggest you're taking issue with the wrong people.

I'm taking issue with the mere fact that the military IS a tool. It is an organization of human beings, and should not be a mere tool to be used at the whim of others.

Also, like it or not but the meaning of defence is open to interpretation, and so is the meaning of foreign aid. Definitions of both can be satisfied by wars overseas.

Thats where justifiable reasons come into play. The concept of defense and aid must be determined on a case by case basis, and the past many wars have clearly been engaged in by poor definitions of these terms. Another thing I very much take issue with.

Vietnam? Given the context of the era, I'd say fighting communist states was both necessary and justified. Like the Korean War, as much as anything it was a proxy war with the Soviet Union. Today communism is essentially dead so we must have done something right.

You honestly believe we were under threat from communism and from Vietnam or North Korea? N.Korea may have been justified in the sense of protecting South Korea from an militarily aggressive nation, but we were certainly not under threat from them or their governing style. Democracy has never, and will never be threatened by communism.

Communism, especially in the state it was in with those two countries, would have crashed and burned on its own very easily. War with them was only undergone because the US thought it would be easy money. "FIGHTING COMMUNISM" is just as much a bullshit reason for a war as "WMDs IN IRAQ" was.

Not that I'm saying Vietnam wasn't horrific. All wars are. Unfortunately the world works in cruel ways.

Thats no excuse to go out and be cruel.


EDIT:

Hang on, wind it back a second. There are justified reasons for military action in all these wars, and we do provide aid to those who need it.

I disagree that there were justified reasons for the war.

Just because our intentions were less than honourable in Iraq does not mean that we are not providing a service by removing Saddam. The scale of humanitarian work being done in Iraq both past and present is enormous.

Me, and many others do not feel that the removal of Saddam was worth the devastation we caused to their nation. Providing humanitarian work to fix shit you broke isnt going to help your case with a justified war. We tore up their economy and their way of life that, while not very good, was better than what we made it after we got there. And its only now, more than half a decade later, that we're getting them back up to an acceptable lifestyle. 6 ****ing years of pain we cause those people, and it was all unnecessary.

We could have secured and stabilised Iraq within months if we had the will to do so.

And why do you think we werent motivated to do that? Could it be because of PROFITS HMMM?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

My friend is going to Iraq soon for 6 months. Gonna be shitty waiting for him to get back.

 

[repiV]

Ok, this is my fault for communicating poorly. I didn't mean a job in the literal sense. Technically, if you're getting paid for your services then its a job, which I have no qualms with. But I dont believe that military service should have the same job mentality as say, an engineer, a salesman, etc where your job is undertaken primarily as a means for earning money. It should be something more, sacred (for lack of a better term). It should be something you join out of principle. Which a great many soldiers do not.

I see. I would disagree with you there, I think it very much is a principle sort of thing - or at least a lifestyle thing. Especially in the USA. It's certainly not a wise career move if you're after the money.

Elite forces like the Royal Marines you'd have absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting into unless you had pure 100% commitment and dedication because it's just so unimaginably gruelling. And then the pay's still shite.

I'm taking issue with the mere fact that the military IS a tool. It is an organization of human beings, and should not be a mere tool to be used at the whim of others.

What else can it be? The military by definition of being a force to protect national interests is an instrument of political will.

Thats where justifiable reasons come into play. The concept of defense and aid must be determined on a case by case basis, and the past many wars have clearly been engaged in by poor definitions of these terms. Another thing I very much take issue with.

Have you ever stopped to think that you wouldn't have the lifestyle or the wealth that you presently enjoy if the US wasn't so aggressive in protecting its interests worldwide?

I'm making no judgement on whether it's right or wrong, but ultimately you benefit nonetheless.

You honestly believe we were under threat from communism and from Vietnam or North Korea? N.Korea may have been justified in the sense of protecting South Korea from an militarily aggressive nation, but we were certainly not under threat from them or their governing style. Democracy has never, and will never be threatened by communism.

The Soviet Union was a massive superpower, with an extensive network of allies around the world. I completely disagree that there was no threat. There is no longer any threat as communism has failed, never to return in any credible form.

Communism, especially in the state it was in with those two countries, would have crashed and burned on its own very easily. War with them was only undergone because the US thought it would be easy money. "FIGHTING COMMUNISM" is just as much a bullshit reason for a war as "WMDs IN IRAQ" was.

You have to look at the bigger picture. If North Korea had won the war, the whole of Korea would now be a communist state. If North Vietnam had won the war, the same applies to that country. It's easy to see with hindsight that communist states crash and burn, but it doesn't stop them being formidable powers in their own right.

North Korea may be on the verge of being a failed state, but a war with them would still have catastrophic consequences for us and for South Korea.

Thats no excuse to go out and be cruel.

War is cruel. It also never occurs between democratic nations. Food for thought.

 

[VirusType2]

"A coward dies a million deaths, a soldier dies once." - 2pac

 

[MJ12]

Get that ****** out of here.

 

[unozero]

"A coward dies a million deaths, a soldier dies once." - 2pac

2pac is such great scholar....