Help Needed From Americans!!!

[el Chi]

Right, I need help from all you lovely Yanks out there in understanding the way your medical system works.
Now as far as I understand it, whatever happens to you in a hospital - operations, treatment, checkups, etc. - you have to pay for. Also, I understand that this can be really quyite expensive. I think it's possible to get free treatment but you have to be absolutely destitute.
Here's a situation and I'd like you to tell me what's what.
A guy has been shot and is in a critical condition in hospital awaiting the operation to help him. Now, obviously they're not going to waste any time in worrying about the money, they're simply going to operate. But afterwards... Then what? What would his family pay afterwards?

This is not intended to be US-bashing in any way shape or form this is purely for my own research purposes. So PLEASE don't turn it into some petty little flame war.

Cheers

 

[nw909]

I dunno, I live in Canada, free healthcare for all.

Except the province I live in omfg.

 

[Kyle2]

el Chi you're way off. Insurance pays for everything, if you don't have insurance than they cut the life support. Plain and simple. Or at least that's what I've been brought up to believe. But yeah I don't think they'll take you in even if your kidneys are dragging along the floor and you don't have insurance.

btw, bash the u.s. all you want. if you ask me our system really sucks. hell we've got porno stars running for governer... wtf:x

 

[crabcakes66]

Depends on the state...depends on the hospital.

 

[bastard_loud]

If your life is in danger, they have to help you. It's the law and stuff.

 

[Kyle2]

Originally posted by bastard_loud
If your life is in danger, they have to help you. It's the law and stuff.

lol there is no law saying you have to help a dying person. hell if anything if you help them and screw up you can be sued. wtf is up with that?

 

[bastard_loud]

If you are trained to practice a medical profession, and are able/have the appropiate medical knowledge to help a fellow human being in need, you are risking punishment if you do not help. And in that case, the remaining relatives will probably sue you anyway for not helping.

 

[Kyle2]

Originally posted by bastard_loud
If you are trained to practice a medical profession, and are able/have the appropiate medical knowledge to help a fellow human being in need, you are risking punishment if you do not help.

where the hell did you get this from? the only thing you're risking is being sued by the person who is in need of help. you're screwed no matter what if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. that's what sucks about america, if you're a poor person and you don't do it right than they kick your ass but if you're rich and you **** up than you get a slap on the wrist. hell they throw your ass away even if you do something right half the time.

oh i see you're editing things on me now

 

[bastard_loud]

Originally posted by Kyle2
where the hell did you get this from? the only thing you're risking is being sued by the person who is in need of help. you're screwed no matter what if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. that's what sucks about america, if you're a poor person and you don't do it right than they kick your ass but if you're rich and you **** up than you get a slap on the wrist. hell they throw your ass away even if you do something right half the time.

oh i see you're editing things on me now

I get this from the fact that i myself am trained to practice a medical profession, and that i'm risking punishment if i do not help a fellow humanbeing who's life is in danger.

And the edit button is there to edit my messages if needed.

 

[Kyle2]

Originally posted by bastard_loud
I get this from the fact that i myself am trained to practice a medical profession, and that i'm risking punishment if i do not help a fellow humanbeing in lifedanger.

And the edit button is there to edit my messages if needed.

yeah, i know about the edit button. i used it too. i've never actually heard of anyone receiving a punishment for not helping someone else if they are trained to do so. i know the police were sued by the families from the north hollywood shootout involving the two bank robbers wearing body armor but that's different because the police were kicking the shit out of the guys which was a good thing to do if you ask me:cheers:. but i'd like to know what the penalties would be for such a crime and what are you trained in.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Kyle2
lol there is no law saying you have to help a dying person. hell if anything if you help them and screw up you can be sued. wtf is up with that?

Yes, there is. It's called the Hypocratic Oath and it's something that ALL people in the medical profession must take before they are allowed to work. It basically states their total and absolute commitment to preserving human life as far as possible. Even on the battlefield, medics treat wounded enemy soldiers as long as they don't have their own troops to attend to first (obviously they would also take the enemy as a prisoner) - that is the level of commitment.
BACK ON TOPIC
Let's say it was New York State, with the situation I put forward - what would happen? Especially if the family was working class and did not have sufficient health insurance?

 

[bastard_loud]

Originally posted by el Chi
Yes, there is. It's called the Hypocratic Oath and it's something that ALL people in the medical profession must take before they are allowed to work. It basically states their total and absolute commitment to preserving human life as far as possible. Even on the battlefield, medics treat wounded enemy soldiers as long as they don't have their own troops to attend to first (obviously they would also take the enemy as a prisoner) - that is the level of commitment.

There you go Kyle. And if you must know, i'm a paramedic.

 

[Kyle2]

whatever, all i know is american hospitals don't like you unless you have insurance

 

[el Chi]

Sure, but if you have insurance then your insurance company pays the bills, not you exactly. However without insurance things get difficult and you have to foot the bill. If you can't afford it, then they send in the lawyers to pull up everything they can to prove that you can't. Or perhaps send in the bailifs. I'm not entirely sure and this is what I need to understand. What happens if the patient has no insurance?

 

[Kyle2]

i think they just kick you out.

 

[el Chi]

But that's exactly the point - because of the Hypocratic Oath they CAN'T kick you out... So what happens!? Aaargh!

 

[StarMonkey]

Thats when they use the excuse "we have other patients to treat, if we stop treating them they may die (paying patients obviously)"

 

[bastard_loud]

They'll help you until you are stable and can take care of yourself, then send you on your way. The minimal treatment, so to say. It's not good business, and the people managing the hospitals don't like it, but thats the way it goes.

A lot of people who don't have insurance don't have anything at all,
so you can get your lawyers to put the smack down, but you can't take money away from people who just don't have it.

 

[Kyle2]

starmonkey's right, there are loopholes in the system. if you get sued or penalized there are lawyers that take care of all the shit for you.

 

[el Chi]

So basically if someone has been shot they patch you up grudgingly whilst making excuses to treat paying patients and then tell you to get out? What if you're in a coma?

 

[Kyle2]

they pull the plug if you don't have the funds to support it.

 

[el Chi]

Perfect.

So in summary:
A guy is shot and is given the minimal treatment needed to keep him alive because he has insufficient medical coverage. He's in a coma. They pull the plug.

Correct?

Surely this would contravene the Hypocratic Oath?

 

[Kyle2]

i hope... i could be wrong though

 

[bastard_loud]

If relatives/friends/loan/paypermonthscheme/whatever cannot provide the required funds, and the hospital sees no chance of improvement of the physical situation, they may indeed decide to stop treatment.

It all depends on 10000000 other things, and all those things are different for every person.

 

[bastard_loud]

I have to go to work now, but i'll be back later to discuss some more about this.

 

[Kyle2]

thank you bastard_loud, exactly what i was looking for. you're gonna be my brain from now on

 

[el Chi]

Yeah cheers I appreciate the help muchly.

 

[Shocky]

Originally posted by el Chi
Perfect.

So in summary:
A guy is shot and is given the minimal treatment needed to keep him alive because he has insufficient medical coverage. He's in a coma. They pull the plug.

Correct?

Surely this would contravene the Hypocratic Oath?

No, they will not pull the plug. And you are not given "the minimal treatment" to keep you alive, you get the same treatment as everyone else. They will not pull the "plug" unless you are clinically brain dead and nothing can be done for you.

 

[Kyle2]

Originally posted by Shocky
No, they will not pull the plug. And you are not given "the minimal treatment" to keep you alive, you get the same treatment as everyone else. They will not pull the "plug" unless you are clinically brain dead and nothing can be done for you.

if you don't have the mulah to pay for your sorry ass than your gonna die my friend.

think about it, a hospital needs money to survive and it gets that money from it's patients, pizza hut is not going to give away free pizza to all the homeless people because they're starving because it's bad for business, the same reason why hospitals won't give away free treatment to people who have had their nuts blown off.

 

[Shocky]

Originally posted by Kyle2
if you don't have the mulah to pay for your sorry ass than your gonna die my friend.

think about it, a hospital needs money to survive and it gets that money from it's patients, pizza hut is not going to give away free pizza to all the homeless people because they're starving because it's bad for business, the same reason why hospitals won't give away free treatment to people who have had their nuts blown off.

The hospital has no choice, it is the law. And a law which hospitals will never break, for then you open yourself up to lawsuits..

 

[Kyle2]

Originally posted by Shocky
The hospital has no choice, it is the law. And a law which hospitals will never break, for then you open yourself up to lawsuits..

true, but lawsuits can be avoided with simple words, how can the patient prove anything?

 

[Shocky]

Originally posted by Kyle2
true, but lawsuits can be avoided with simple words, how can the patient prove anything?

You dont need to even be able to prove anything. You can sue if your right, wrong, made it all up, whatever you like. The patient can sue, the family can sue on behalf of the patient, whatever combination you like.

The hospital does not want the controversy. Chances are the cost of the trial would be far more then the cost of the treatment which the hospital failed to provide, there is no reason for them to take that chance.

.."lawsuits can be avoided with simple words..." yes, thousands and thousands of simple words, charged at $300 an hour...

 

[Murray_H]

This was like a storyline in Quincey once, he got stressed at this hospital guy who wouldnt allow people who didnt have any insurance any treatment at all. Quincey got mad and killed everyone, includng Sam and Dr Aston.

He didnt really kill them :|

 

[el Chi]

Ok, so if I was wrong then what WOULD happen?
Shocky? Murray? Quincy? Anyone?

 

[switch]

A good film that addresses this issue is JohnQ, go rent it or something its a really good film

 

[el Chi]

Oh I cant be bothered... But cheers for the tip
Seriously, if anyone could sum the issue up before I go and watch the film, then that'd be great.

 

[Steelwind]

el Chi, I think I can help you out. I own a health insurance agency. We broker group health insurance policies to commercial companies, so that their employees are covered while employed. NO ONE will be denied medical attention in the event they don't have health insurance. It is, by law, the hospital's obligation to provide treatment to any and all who are in need. No one is going to pull the plug on you because you don't have insurance. What will happen, is that after your recovery, you will be billed by the hospital for the services rendered. From there you have several options to settle the bill. Paying in full, setting up financing, paying in monthly installments, etc. In the event that you're extremely poor or destitute, you can get insurance through your state insurance pool. These policies are far from covering similar circumstances and benefits that a standard issue insurance policy would cover however. If you don't have insurance at all and can't get it for some reason, then generally the hospital bill goes on your credit record which will hinder you from ever getting a loan or financing. Eventually you'll have to pay the bill in order to recover your credit.

As far as this stuff about lawsuits, anyone can sue a medical facility at any time. Reguardless if the patient does or does not have insurance. Saying that hospitals don't treat non-insured patients, because of the risk of getting sued is ridiculous. People with insurance can sue just as easily. They'd be sueing over malpractice or neglegence. These types of situations can happen to anyone, anytime, reguardless of the insurance status. In some states, Texas being one of them, it is even illegal for a person to leave a scene of an accident if there are injuried parties and professional aid has not arrived. It is a civilian's obligation to stop and provide first aid.

So in the situation you describe:

A guy has been shot and is in a critical condition in hospital awaiting the operation to help him. Now, obviously they're not going to waste any time in worrying about the money, they're simply going to operate. But afterwards... Then what? What would his family pay afterwards?

Two things can happen. If he has insurance, his provider will foot a percentage of the bill after he's met his deductible. Depending on his policy they could foot anywhere from 50%-100%. The rest will be billed to him and he'd have to make arrangements to pay it off.

If he doesn't have insurance, he'd be billed for the entire cost of his stay in the hospital. At this point he either pays in full, pays montly towards the total, sets up some financing through his bank/lender, or applies for some help with his state insurance pool. At this point he is not eligible for health insurance for a major provider. They will not cover past medical expenses. Most people take collections from family members, church members, charties, etc to help cover their expenses. But no one is ever left to die or suffer due to lack of insurance.

 

[DimitriPopov]

Originally posted by bastard_loud
If you are trained to practice a medical profession, and are able/have the appropiate medical knowledge to help a fellow human being in need, you are risking punishment if you do not help. And in that case, the remaining relatives will probably sue you anyway for not helping.

Its the ... ofmg I cant believe I forgot it. Its the oath Doctors and Nurses take , from the Greek. If someone can come up with the name , Ill feel better.


You get Health Insurance , they pay for it , you co-pay 0-1000$. They HAVE to help you though , and they do it because they like to help people.

 

[bastard_loud]

Originally posted by Shocky
And you are not given "the minimal treatment" to keep you alive, you get the same treatment as everyone else.

"minimal treatment" sounds harsh, i know i shouldve used other words.
But when i have 'minimal treatment' in mind i think of other stuff than most people who don't deal with hospitals everyday. You still know what i mean i hope.

 

[Newton]

Originally posted by DimitriPopov
Its the ... ofmg I cant believe I forgot it. Its the oath Doctors and Nurses take , from the Greek. If someone can come up with the name , Ill feel better.

The hippocratic oath is what you're refferring to Dimitri.