Here's wishing there weren't Episodes

[Atomic_Piggy]

First of all Ep1 only took me 4 hours, if that.

/QUOTE]

Well, if you explore everywhere, talk to Alyx, listen ot Klieners speech and don't rush to be the first to finish, it is actaully around 5-6 hours.

Assuming that the rest of the episodes will run a similar length and still cost $20 ... then $50 would equate to about 10 hours. Both HL1 and HL2 were longer than that, and Opposing Force was about that long and only cost $30. I have never seen a PC game cost more than $50, ever (barring some stupid collectors edition). So even $60 for 15 hours, which is being a bit liberal, is more than we're used to paying - especially for Half-Life games which have always cost $50.

Oppsing Force is an expansion though, and TBH, it isn't anywhere near as good as Epi One.

As far as the merits of episodic gaming go, I'm well aware of the advantages. However, it all comes down to personal preference. I'm not a big fan of the quick fix formula and prefer longer, stand-alone stories told with a clear arc that can stand entirely on their own. I also don't like how adopting an episodic format forces the designer to drag out the story through a series of increasingly predictable cliffhangers ... almost like a second rate television show. You could just wait for them to all pile up and play them at once but the story structure will retain the same flaws.

Wait until there all done, then play them, problem solved

But yes, it saves the developer an absolute TON of money and allows them a much quicker turn around rate. In addition it benefits the consumer by giving them a steady flow of content. That's all well and good, but in my opinion the end result with episodic content is inferior to that of full games.

I respect your oponion, but half of the stuff in Epi One simply couldn't be without it being episodic.

 

[madog]

I wish they would make 1 long episode at least until the story has a major shift.

 

[Asknoone]

Huh?

 

[Hullu]

I don't even understand how people can measure the time it takes them to play games... it's the last thing on my mind when I start or stop playing.

 

[NJspeed]

What I don't like is this:

If Valve's goal was "to make the best game possible" then such game would naturally sell itself because it's such a great game. I think HL1 and HL2 fit into this mold. (Another example - restaurants that concentrate on making the best food possible will be more profitable than a restaurant that focuses on profit margins first and food second. Same can be said of any company)

However, with Episode 1, it seems that the goal has changed to "suck as much money as possible from this franchise". I say this because HL1 and HL2 were some of the best games ever made. Each was superb. Gabe, however, has always had a business mentality that has scared me... I really think that profits are his main goal, and I don't think that is the route to take when it comes to making a truly great game. Think of EA and all the complaints they constantly get for being a publicaly traded company that cares less about game quality and more about profits.

Episode 1? Eh... it was okay. That's it. 5/10 in my opinion. I was actually really disappointed. Sure it was fun, but I think we can all agree that it wasn't what we've come to expect from a Half Life title.

With no "new" enemies or weapons, and rehashed environments, this is the first time in the history of the Half Life series that a Half Life game has been released and not been one of the best games ever made. Everyone knows it's flaws and I think it's because of one reason - they wanted to get something out, using existing content, to make more $. The fact that it took a year and a half makes it even more disappointing. At least HL2 was worth the wait.

Thus I think episodic content and stretching the storyline to get more money out of it is crap.

It's like in the movies.. Sequels rarely live up to the standards of the first one because they are just trying to suck the franchise for whatever dregs remain. Now forget sequels, what about part 3 of a movie franchise? Usually extremely lame.. Part 4 is a niche film that only hardcore fans of the original watch. This is unfortunately where I see HL going.. I certainly don't feel motivated to buy Episode 2 after Episode 1.

(anyone ever read Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series? Another example of a great franchise that got stretched too far because the early books were SO good they knew they could strech it out and people would buy... sure they made money but the series itself sucks now at book 11 or 12 and in the end this will lead to lower profits because nobody will ever buy the full series. However if it ended with 8 great books they'd be selling sets for years to come)

BTW I'm one of the hugest HL2 fans out there... I literally love HL2 and have played through it at least 10 times...

I hope you know what I mean here... I love HL1 and HL2 but Episode 1 didn't make the bar... (that Valve raised with HL2)

Thanks for listening

 

[Hullu]

Only 10 times? That's not hardcore. Shame on you!

I think the reason why it didn't raise the bar is it wasn't supposed to. I guess they didn't want to go through the trouble to make grand changes but instead wanted to go further with the story little by little, so people wouldn't get bored waiting for the next game.

But I agree with you that it was rather mediocre, the story didn't really progress that much... Perhaps it's best to think of it as an intermediate episode between the good stuff. Let's hope so at least.

 

[Absinthe]

A business run by profit? Shock! Horror!

Gabe isn't running a charity, folks. Of course he wants money, as does everybody at Valve. If you don't want to give money for episodes, then I'm sure they'll eventually revert back to the standard development model (which is a shame, but whatever).

There is nothing warranting a comparison to EA at the moment, as EA has made clear they truly care nothing about quality, whereas Valve has poured time, effort, and money into their games and other projects like Steam. You people are flipping out batshit insane over one episode, ffs.

 

[PvtRyan]

All that oppose episodic content are full of shit.

There, that easy. Thread over.

 

[Mesz]

This is just a personal preference.
(I can already hear stupid replies from people who don't see the above line.)

- I was just wondering if I'm the only one who wants to sit down and play a good, long game at least twice or three times as much as I want to play a really, really short game, no matter how good it is.

If there's one thing I hate, it's great games that are way too short... especially if they have terrible, unexpected endings. I know Valve is somehow TRYING to say that Episodes 1 and 2 are the same game, as if they SHOULD be played together or thought of together in order to be complete and the most fun, but that's just fluff if you split them in two, and sell them almost a year apart. You can say whatever you want, but that's not how a single person will experience them, because the games are received as two completely different entities, played at two completely different times, each with it's own beginning, middle, and end (and a very disappointing end for Ep 1 because of that).

In my opinion, just from what I like and don't like (this isn't doctrine - just my opinion), video games can't be split into episodes any more than movies can. You wouldn't go watch the first half of X-Men, and then go see the second half a year later. You wouldn't pay to see the first hour of Finding Nemo, and then come back next year to the see the end.

Only movies with really long, elaborate, multi-parted stories can do that, like Lord of the Rings. Just like if HL2 Episode 1 was actually as long as the original HL2, all would be well, because you could fit a good, solid, well-structured and well-concluded segment of the story into a standard-length game.

In my opinion, HL2 could, and probably should have been, called Episode 1, because, like I just mentioned, it takes a good, solid chunk of a grand story and delivers it in full, with a good, satisfying end; the destruction of the Citadel. Now, the next game, Episode 2, should be like Half-Life's The Two Towers, taking the next grand step in the next chapter of the story, and should be worked on until compelted, so that people can watch the "whole movie" when it's done, instead of these little episodes that get nothing done, can hardly tell any story, and are over almost as soon as they start.

So, in short, I know what Valve is trying to do with Episodes... well, okay, I don't... but I just don't see any benefit. All I see is what I've also experienced first-hand; people losing interest in these games, such as SIN: Episodes, because of lousy, short, and ultimately unsatisfying first episodes that simply get nothing done for you. It's like packaging a fancy restaurant's food in paper bags, and handing it out at a drive-thru.

Some of you may like that, and can't wait to get your hands all over it, but people like me look at it and call it such a waste, stripped of its glory in full-form.

Games cannot be chopped up and distributed in tiny, unsatisfying pieces. Like movies, you have to watch the whole thing, and get the whole story... in one experience... And I, like probably many, would very happily wait a long time for a GOOD, long game, than be handed Episodes the moment they're ready. This is just NOT how you deliver this kind of grand story. It has to be an experience... not an Episode.

Okay, 2 dollars, not 2 cents.

Dude, I so understand that, I remember playing EP1 over my friends house and we literally finished it in under 2 hours, I'm all for the climax and suspense and crap but it kinda takes the mick, because all you do in Episode 1 is basically backtrack through Anticitizen one and "Follow Freeman" from HL2, battling the enemy and waiting for the citadel to explode and I don't even know why they bothered putting the blinding flash at the end and leaving at a "cliffhanger" because it basically tells you what happens next in the bonus trailer, you go through a forest and kill the Combine forces, solve some puzzles, etc. And I think to myself, "Where have I seen this before? Oh yes HL2!" I know they can't afford to change the style of the game but that doesn't mean just not changing a thing except the background of the game, they need to make games more interesting and lengthy keeping old characters, meeting new ones, more interesting and perplexing puzzles to solve and revealing more of the OVERALL storyline. Some new weapons would cool too.............=D

 

[PvtRyan]

Except that you're wrong.

Literally finished it under 2 hours? Used noclip or something? Because:
http://www.steampowered.com/stats/ep1/

0.03% finished it in 2 hours, nothing below it. Most completed it around 4 hours. Exaggerate more please.

In my opinion, just from what I like and don't like (this isn't doctrine - just my opinion), video games can't be split into episodes any more than movies can. You wouldn't go watch the first half of X-Men, and then go see the second half a year later. You wouldn't pay to see the first hour of Finding Nemo, and then come back next year to the see the end.

That's a bullshit comparison.

Finding Nemo consists of one story arc. Cutting the story arc in two would ruin it. However, Episode 1 is an intact story arc in itself, it sets an objective at the start of the game and closes the game off by completing that objective (getting out of City 17).

Episode 2 will have its own story arc, it takes the events of Episode 1 and goes on with that to develope its own story arc.

Ep1 and Ep2 are two different games in their own right, nothing is being cut off because each game will close off its own little storyline of events. If you cut Finding Nemo in half however, you mutilate it because the movie isn't written to be told in two parts.

There's a word for each show of a tv series: episodes! That's what it is, don't compare it to cutting a damn movie in half. It's no more like cutitng up a movie than a tv show is. And last time I checked, tv shows like Firefly did a damn fine job at telling a larger story.

Again: bollocks.

 

[smwScott]

All that oppose episodic content are full of shit.

There, that easy. Thread over.

Or maybe they prefer a complete story over a series of fractured segments. It's a matter of opinion. Saying someone is full of shit because they don't like to have games split into multiple tiny chunks and linked together by an endless series of cliffhangers is ****ing stupid.

 

[Asknoone]

I laugh when people pin it down to making more money.

 

[Cuthbert]

This thread is probably supposed to die but I'm bringing back cause I enjoyed this discussion.

I believe Gabe said that All Episodes=HL3 thing for marketing reasons. For me, All Episodes will be equal to HL2:Aftermath. I really loved this episodic content but at some point I know I'll want HL3. With a new engine and with a more than five years waiting period.

And people complaining about the lack of story, similar gameplay, and no new weapons just don't understand episodic content. Episode 2 is not the sequel to Episode 1. All Episodes should be considered as 1 game. Saying Ep1 lacks story is like the first 30 minutes of a movie lacks a story. Be patient folks.

 

[Excesos]

Totally agree with you, Dario D.
I finished the game in just one night, and i didn't like that because i prefer to play a long game with diferent contents, like the HL:2 ...
Besides I was waiting for a game as good as the previous one, and end up by being something similar to a Mod (of course, because it is an expansion, but that's what i'm talking about, the game hadn't to be like that)

 

[Absinthe]

Do you expect them to release a full-fledged title this soon after HL2?

If you don't like playing in chunks, then DON'T. Just wait until they're all released and go through them successively. The beauty of episodic content is that people who want more Half-Life more often get it. Those who don't can wait.

 

[ShadowJustice]

Except that you're wrong.

Literally finished it under 2 hours? Used noclip or something? Because:
http://www.steampowered.com/stats/ep1/

0.03% finished it in 2 hours, nothing below it. Most completed it around 4 hours. Exaggerate more please.



That's a bullshit comparison.

Finding Nemo consists of one story arc. Cutting the story arc in two would ruin it. However, Episode 1 is an intact story arc in itself, it sets an objective at the start of the game and closes the game off by completing that objective (getting out of City 17).

Episode 2 will have its own story arc, it takes the events of Episode 1 and goes on with that to develope its own story arc.

Ep1 and Ep2 are two different games in their own right, nothing is being cut off because each game will close off its own little storyline of events. If you cut Finding Nemo in half however, you mutilate it because the movie isn't written to be told in two parts.

There's a word for each show of a tv series: episodes! That's what it is, don't compare it to cutting a damn movie in half. It's no more like cutitng up a movie than a tv show is. And last time I checked, tv shows like Firefly did a damn fine job at telling a larger story.

Again: bollocks.

I completely agree with you, except for the part about the lenght of the game. I finished the game in under three hours, without using cheats, and replayed it reloading everytime I got hit (at hard difficulty level) and I was still able to beat it under three hours.

But anyway, I don't have any problem with the lenght of the game. For the price and the quality I bought with 13 € I was more than happy.

Also, I'm pretty enthusiastic with all this episodic deal. To me it means more polish, better pacing and gameplay, the possibility of experimenting new and different things (like the "cooperative singleplayer", the portal gun and the open-ended arena they are promising will be in episode two), more plot possibilities and better character development. And most of all, no six-years between a cliffhanger and the next.

Also, I agree with this essay on episodic gaming: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,71181-0.html

 

[rd_syringe]

Do you expect them to release a full-fledged title this soon after HL2?

If you don't like playing in chunks, then DON'T. Just wait until they're all released and go through them successively. The beauty of episodic content is that people who want more Half-Life more often get it. Those who don't can wait.

The problem there is that when you finally get around to playing all three episodes together, episodes one and two will look very dated because they're recycling assets and technology from HL2 instead of being part of a new, cohesive experience. When I first heard about this trilogy of episodic expansions, I assumed they were using it to make incremental updates to the Source engine over the years as well as generate revenue to fund development of HL3 behind the scenes. It seems I was quite wrong.

HL2 was an event. Everyone remembers the experience and the giant leap it was over the first game. I want a HL3. I hate the idea of being cut off and having to wait a year to continue playing. I don't want to feel like I'm playing annual revamps of HL2 gameplay motifs with relatively minor technology upgrades and a shorter game length.

Put it this way, Spider-man 3 is the most anticipated movie of 2007, and probably of the decade. Wouldn't it suck if, instead of entering that theater on release day and getting a nice two-hour Spidey flick, you got 30 minute chunks separated by a six month wait as they filmed the next half hour? Would you want to read a novel five chapters at a time with a six month wait between?

The claim that it would take another 12 years to make a HL3 is silly. Unlike last time, they've got a base to start from with the Source engine, and as others have pointed out, the episodes put together add up to around 2-3 years. It didn't take 12 years to make Elder Scrolls IV, and it's a much huger game than HL3 would be. I think Gabe is still stinging from the HL2 delay and is overcompensating in the other direction by refusing the risk of a full development cycle. Come on, Gabe.

Stretching out the story kills the momentum for me. My experience with Episode One has tempered my anticipation for Episode Two, and I've never been as excited for these episodes as I was for the full-length HL2. Valve are masters of storytelling and immersion, but now we won't get a complete HL3 storyline to blow us away. No major leaps in technology, no new assets across the board, no epic storyline. Frankly, Valve's behavior with regards to these episodes is bizarre. Aftermath was originally reported to be an expansion, but then it was called Half-Life 2: Episode One which makes it sound like a prequel, but now it's supposed to represent Half-Life 3 even though it has Half-Life 2 in its title? Ugh.

Well, that's my opinion.

 

[Jintor]

Put it this way, Spider-man 3 is the most anticipated movie of 2007, and probably of the decade. Wouldn't it suck if, instead of entering that theater on release day and getting a nice two-hour Spidey flick, you got 30 minute chunks separated by a six month wait as they filmed the next half hour? Would you want to read a novel five chapters at a time with a six month wait between?

I'm fairly sure your analogy is wrong. Maybe if they ended each little section as you were walking down a corridor, or midway through a conversation, then your analogy would be right, or at least fit the situation. But the way the episodes are designed, are structured, is that each little episode is a self-contained storyline, that fit together with the other episodes to make a GINORMEOUS storyline.

 

[rd_syringe]

I'm fairly sure your analogy is wrong. Maybe if they ended each little section as you were walking down a corridor, or midway through a conversation, then your analogy would be right, or at least fit the situation. But the way the episodes are designed, are structured, is that each little episode is a self-contained storyline, that fit together with the other episodes to make a GINORMEOUS storyline.

The problem with the structure of an episode is that the self-contained storyline is, well, self-contained. *It's limited by length and can't carry itself across extended sections of the game.* It also means having everything come to an abrupt halt with an annoying cliffhanger, ala Episode One.* It's not the same experience of having a huge, epic experience the way HL2 was.

Also, I can't stand the word "GINORMEOUS."

 

[Asknoone]

Each Episode has a specific focus where it concentrates on several aspects of gameplay. They can receive feedback on these and take more risks regarding what they release. Your analogy IS wrong. Spiderman 3 is supposed to be a film. Splitting it for the sake of splitting is not the same, and the two parts wouldn't have been designed to stand on their own two feet.

Also, Episode 1's cliff-hanger was not annoying considering the next step is less than a year away, whereas I'd really be waiting 2 years or more with a standard game. I much prefer getting my Half-life this way. Quality pieces of gaming, that whilst short are leagues ahead of the competition. You are looking at it wrong as well. It isn't meant to be a 'new' experience. That is why it is called HALF-LIFE 2: Episode 1.
I don't need technology leaps to blow me away. The Episodes themselves are still better than most on the market. It's all about gameplay. And that is where it delivers.

 

[Jintor]

Besides, Halo 2's cliffhanger was WAY more annoying. Considering it was a fully fledged game that was advertised almost entirely on its premise of 'Fight the Convent on Earth!' but most of the action took place on... a second Halo. Storyline, Gameplay-wise? Not so good.

 

[Asknoone]

Exactly. I didn't even know that was the end of the game until the credits started.

 

[bigburpco]

syringe; Gabe said HDR and blah blah would eventually find its way to HL2 and previous Episodes.

And besides, HL3 would take AGES to make. It won't come out in a year.

You see, HL took two years. HL2 took six years. HL3 should then take 3-6 years if they are still using the Source engine (with rendering upgrades). If they're making a new one, add 3 years to that.

Ouch. That hurts, doesn't it? Now why not have some goodies to fill more of your time while you wait for HL3? You get the goods, you discuss storyline and blah blah blah... when the boards are nearly drying up, Valve announces HL3, which it had sneaked off and worked on right after the Episodes are done. BLAM! Sudden amount of people who get interested rush in. But before that happens, we won't have to discuss HL2 for eternity.

Also, if a developer just went away for a while, fans leave. They're not holding them captive in the aweshens they create regularly. They also attract new fans.

Therefore, episodes own.

 

[Absinthe]

Any way, my personal belief is that there will be a full-fledged Half-Life game somewhere down the line. The episodes are a way of gauging player response to certain concepts and methods of impementation. They allow valve to hone different aspects to a high standard of quality, as well as test the flexibility of their engine, all while still giving products to the fans and recieving an income without the risk of burnout that would come with hopping into the long, arduous development that would go into a full-fledged title. It's a more comfortable and manageable pace that keeps everybody (well, most people) happy that's also far more informative and constructive.

I have no doubt that such experience will eventually be put to use in a full-length title. Even if it's not Half-Life 3 or 4, I find it hard to imagine that Valve wouldn't give their franchise a grand exodus when it reaches its end.

 

[bigburpco]

And that, plus my previous point, is why episodes are FTW.

 

[Jintor]

Admittedly not many other developers are going for the episodic content side of things right now. But that's only because Valve are trail-blazers! TRAIL-BLAZERS I TELL YOU!

(Man, i would love to see a Vampire:The Masquerade episodic thing. That'd be awesome.)