HL : Source (Full Overhaul Modification)

[AmishSlayer]

Looking at the title of the thread... How about HL:Overhaul.

Or HL:Badass or something. I'd love to help on this...but I have no modding skills and can't be arsed to learn how now...I've got too much schoolwork.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Half-life Codename: Source?

 

[jheaddon]

Well i guess name can come later in the project

Anyone else fancy helping out?

Will be a great learning experience!

 

[NetWarriorDan]

Like I said this is a somewhat simple project. If you have ever had a complaint about HL this would be the project to fix it or make it better. If your mapping you could copy the HL map and improve on them. You have examples to look at. We will also have some code changes. If you want to learn program this would be a good place to start. For example, the spit from the bullsquid could use some gravity on it. So it would be a matter of finding the code for the spit and adding a downward acceleration. You would also in compensation for gravity for the bullsquid so he could aim properly. I invite anyone willing to learn but especially thoes with a little knowlege of mapping, programming, or textures.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Like I said this is a somewhat simple project.

Not if your gonna do it properly it wont be. And I'd only use the original maps for very basic early idea's, I'd certainly not use anything itself, decompiling/recompiling from a bsp is gonna f*ck it up real quick.

 

[NetWarriorDan]

That's not what I ment. I hate using decompiling map any way. I guess I said fixing things here and there when I ment redoing everything and looking at the HL maps to be influenced by.

 

[Znipper]

Half-life : Deja vu'

 

[jheaddon]

Any news on the train/tram NetWarriorDan?

 

[NetWarriorDan]

I haven't gotten too much done yet. I've been playing too much GTA. I'm going to work on it today. I should have something to show for it by the end of today.

 

[jheaddon]

Cool cool, been writing up the hazard course and tram intro details, try get a nice layout all sorted

Thought might be a nicer way to layout the tram so yours could be nice practise to see how could look

 

[jheaddon]

My idea for the tram:

Right Hand-Side with the door.

Left Hand-Side with no door and glass panel all the way around for better viewing.

A crap front picture.

An inside picture followed by an ontop inside picture.

Got the monitor in there and less sitting space, but have put in hand rails like on buses and trains where you can stand.


Thoughts? With the left side all glass (and no door) would be easier to be like HL and have most things happen to the trams left.

Not sure how easy that would be to model, obviously its a little more rounded on the fronts and such but i'm not that good at drawing so

 

[Dowie]

looks gr8, you could even start modeling it in Softimage

 

[jheaddon]

Is very brief and badly drawn, but you get the idea (i sure hope, took me hours that damn thing! joking )

I always saw Black Mesa as supposed to be fairly futuristic and very overly modern, so this kind of design works well and could be pulled off in Source

 

[Logic]

Personally I wouldn't be changing the design of anything, but rather re-creating the same design with more detail. The danger of redesigning things is changing the entire feel of the place - Black Mesa was never overly futuristic looking, really, but rather an old facility with various imperfections and damaged or rusted surfaces. Remember, Black Mesa was a nuclear facility long before it was re-inhabited and used by the Black Mesa scientists.

While the design idea for the tram you've posted is good, I think it looks too much like a commercial tram, rather than an industrial purpose one.

http://www.sparedlife.com/Halflife/choice/images/inbound5.jpg

The original tram didn't even have glass. It didn't need to look snazzy or glossy, because it was never meant to be viewed by the public. It was purely functional, and not designed to be aesthetically pleasing.

Another thing to consider, is that adding glass may change the entire feel of the opening sequence. The original tram's open-air design let you clearly see and hear everything going on outside. Adding glass would make the experience much more confining.

In a project like this, I think the absolute most important thing is to preserve the spirit and experience of the original game - the design of things should not be changed unless necessary, and even then, the purpose of the new design should be absolutely consistant with the purpose of the old design. Just some food for thought

 

[jheaddon]

Original tram didn't have glass cause at first couldn't be attached to func_trains

The way i see it valve were very limited at their design with the HL engine.

I plan on keeping true to the story and all main key areas, but "change" - remodel the lesser key / fun ones to be more original to gameplay and mean more.

 

[Logic]

Original tram didn't have glass cause at first couldn't be attached to func_trains

The way i see it valve were very limited at their design with the HL engine.

I plan on keeping true to the story and all main key areas, but "change" - remodel the lesser key / fun ones to be more original to gameplay and mean more.

But think about it, adding glass WOULD change the experience of the tram ride significantly.

I was worried this might happen. I want a full overhaul of HL more than anyone, but I don't like the idea that it will be creatively "changed"... if you want to design things creatively, you should make an original mod. By taking on a HL:S overhaul, you have a lot of existing HL fans you should be aiming to please, and by not staying true to the original in even small ways, you're going to divide your audience into people who like the changes, and people who think you've ruined it by altering things that were fine the way they were.

All I'm saying is give this a lot of thought, and make your design decisions very carefully. You shouldn't be aiming to change the content of Half-Life into what you want it to be... you should only be aiming to upgrade it to today's standards, without changing it's design.

 

[jheaddon]

Funnily enough, that was the plan at the start.

Soon realised that HL could be so much more and a decent challenge if the source engine was used properly.

Would be easy enough to add-in just the models and textures to the HL maps afterwards.

I just find that if someone doesn't want to "ruin" HL then feel free to replicate everything.

I think its much more worth it expanding HL and making it a different game experience, not the same stuff all the way through, which would be easy to do.

 

[Logic]

I agree that it's not a bad idea to do things that are possible with source, but weren't back then, such as various physics related puzzles or scenarios, but there's no need to change the design of the actual things within the world.

The tram, for example... if Valve wanted it to look like your design, they could easily have modelled something more futuristic looking like that (even if it didn't have glass).. but instead, they designed the tram to be quite square and dull (not because of technical limitations, the monsters aren't square are they?) That's how a tram would probably look in a facility like that. Plain shapes like that are cheaper to make. I really don't think you should be re-designing things like the tram, especially when there is a logical reason why the original design was the way it was, and your own design is less logical.

Like you said in your first post, this is a project that should be treated very delicately. I see no harm in adding elements to the gameplay experience that weren't possible on the older engine, but re-designing things is taking it too far in my view.

 

[jheaddon]

Fair point, just since the original post i've realised that its much more worth trying to uprate all the less enjoyed areas of HL.

I agree that the tram idea may be far fetched, but comon how f'ng ugly is the original tram, even if it is more logical, i'd be embaressed to even try replicate that in a HL2 mod..

These are all concepts at the minute, my own thoughts. When the time is finalised i did plan on going over every aspect of the game design with their thoughts, see what i had overlooked or changed too much.

 

[Logic]

Why would you be embarrassed to replicate the original tram?

Beauty in a game is not the same as beauty in real life... while a tram like that in real life might be considered "ugly", in a game, if it were created with great attention to detail, with subtle imperfections like rust and scratches, and made to look as realistic as possible, it could be considered beautiful. The design of the original tram is practical, and the parts that connect to the track are placed symmetrically so that the load is even, to avoid damage to the mechanisms over time. Your design is less balanced, more complex, and therefore (in more ways than one) less practical, and consequently less realistic.

The ideal person to lead a project like this would be someone who is passionate about Valve's ideas and visions, and wants to bring them out in all their glory with the new technology. If you disagree with Valve's design direction on things like the tram, then perhaps you're not the right person for the project. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really think if you want to be designing things creatively, you should be working on something original, rather than altering Valve's game.

I know that this is all in early stages, but now's the best time to decide things like this.

 

[jheaddon]

I didn't mean ugly as in physically, as in design it is poor, even if it was updated to a half decent poly count then it would still be fairly "ugly".

Actually i'm a big fan of Valve's "ideas and visions", especially they're development techniques, cabal and such.

My ideas revolve around theirs i assure you, i'm not trying to impress people with new technology and crap which has no meaning or base within the story. I feel that the HL episode could be adapted better than merely upgrading all models, sounds and textures.

 

[Logic]

When I say their "designs and visions".... to use the tram example again, the tram was designed the way it is deliberately. If you don't see the reasoning behind Valve's design, or disagree with their design direction, then your ideas aren't revolving around theirs. Again, I agree that more can be done than simply upgrading models, but changing the old industrial type tram into a slick, curvy one is unjustified, and ignoring the very reasons why Valve designed the tram the way they did. It's not poorly designed, there were reasons it was designed that way. To take on a project like this, you need to analyse the original designs, work out exactly why Valve designed things the way they did, and then keep those reasons in mind when deciding what changes, if any, to make. Your approach to the tram was a purely aesthetic one, and there is so much more to design than aesthetics. If you approach the design of this, and other things, this way, you will almost certainly detract from the immersive world that Valve created.

 

[jheaddon]

Actually i think your looking too deep into the design of the tram on this one, i believe Valve didn't think about it as much as you make it. If this isn't the case then i apologise, but i highly doubt they did.

The tram was actually a concept, something i threw together which was thought over quite a lot actually, more glass panels for better viewing, personally you couldn't see everything with all the vertical support poles. The seating was changed because it took up a lot of space and wasn't generally needed.

But like i said it was just a concept to see others feelings. You read my views on the hazard course in the other thread (Help wanted)?

 

[Logic]

Actually i think your looking too deep into the design of the tram on this one, i believe Valve didn't think about it as much as you make it. If this isn't the case then i apologise, but i highly doubt they did.

Of course they did think about it. That's what made Half-Life so great.. everything was plausable in it's environment, which gave the game a sense of believability that immersed gamers so deeply. When designing a game as big as Half-Life, you don't just put things in carelessly. Things were designed purposefully, and that's why the game was so immersive.

I'll check out the other thread

 

[jheaddon]

No i meant i think you thought too much into the details such as weight balancing and vision area. I reckon it was closer to hey we want an industrial employee-seated tram which can be walked about in and was worked on from that through a few cabal meetings and design concepts.

We've actually added into the design document many things that made HL what it is and things that we need to do to each part of the game to make sure it doesn't ruin anything, it is being more delicate than you might think.

A concept is hardly solid material for model request Just an idea.

I would, personally like to see Black Mesa lovely and futurstic because it'd look cool, but at the same time keep true to the original.

 

[Logic]

If you don't take details like weight balancing into account, the results will be less believable. I garantee that the person who created the design for that tram took those things into account, because that's what a good designer does.

It's impossible to make Black Mesa lovely and futuristic, and keep true to the original at the same time, because Black Mesa never was "lovely and futuristic" in that sense, nor was it intended to be, and nor would it be appropriate for it to be.

I really believe that every single thing that works the way it is already should be kept the same in design (that goes for the design of monsters, objects, level design etc etc). Of course, on occasion some of the level design would benefit from slight change, but from my point of view (and I'm a die hard Half-Life fan), so much of the original game is iconic, so many specific areas (be they corridors, elevators, whatever) are so memorable in design, that to change them significantly would be almost criminal.

I apologise if you find this offensive, but if the tram is any indication, I think you are far too liberal with design changes, and you don't seem to fully understand aspects of Valve's design direction. A project like this needs to be done by fans who know and love the original game so much, they would not dream of making arbitrary changes like that. I think you would be more suited to making something original, or perhaps an 'expanded universe' mod set in the Half-Life universe, but telling a different story. Re-making the game is one thing, re-designing it is another thing entirely.

 

[jheaddon]

My quote of loving to see black mesa futuristic still stands, but i also said that it wouldn't fit the "true to the story" theme.

Things like monsters, characters, sounds and such were all to be kept as pure replicas to the originals.

Since starting the project i've actually come to the conclusion that there's no real point replicating the entire levels, HL:Source has this and would be fine with just new textures, sounds and models, which can easily be replaced from the ones we create. The idea of the overhaul now is to work on HL and make it more Source friendly, using the engines advantages. I'd rather not spend a year working on merely updating levels in some ways, such as pipes and some machinery when if that is what people want, they would either play with HL or HL:Source with new models and materials, again which i have said we can replace with ours.

 

[Logic]

If it's not your intention to faithfully replicate the level designs, I think you'd better contact Valve before you get underway. They've openly encouraged people upgrading HL:S's content (I think they said something like "it's not just a good idea, it's inevitable") but I really don't know what they'd think of having someone re-make Half-Life with new designs and different level layouts. Keep in mind that it's still representing them, since it's still supposed to be "Half-Life"... but it actually wouldn't be, since Half-Life IS it's level designs and content.

I don't really think you have the right to change Half-Life to be the way you personally want it to be... besides, most people who will be eagerly awaiting a mod like this are the people who love Half-Life, and want a more jaw-dropping experience of the same game, not a different designer's personal take on the game.

The more you discuss your intentions (saying that you don't see the point in replicating the levels for example) the more I am convinced you should do an original mod. You are obviously not content with recreating Half-Life faithfully, and therefore should be making something that you can be more creative with. Seriously, if you don't see the point in recreating Half-Life as it is, then don't recreate it.

 

[jheaddon]

So the many mods who have changed CS represent VALVe as they produce this? Comon..

And seriously, where do i say that this is how i want it to be? Quite a few of the things suggested aren't actually favourites of mine but keep the story.

Where do i say that we plan on so drastically changing HL beyond recognition like your are making out.

My personal take on the game is actually pretty close to what came out, my jiff with the whole design is that in comparison with the Source engines limits and technologies, it looks shit.

Hence why the updating of everything (but levels) to that of highpoly (and other technologies) counts yet still keeping as replicas to the original.

To fit your views i might aswell spend 2 years rebuilding levels of things we've already played many times which would be nice, but no challenge and nothing spectacular.

HL:Source, is, going to be updated with new models, textures, shaders and the like, by external mod teams.

Why would i go out of my way to work for say 2 years on this when i would be so much prouder of having produced something with the above technologies which keeps to HL in all ways except the expandability of some levels which can now be updated (which Valve would have done) if the technology was available back then.

 

[Logic]

And seriously, where do i say that this is how i want it to be? Quite a few of the things suggested aren't actually favourites of mine but keep the story.

Where do i say that we plan on so drastically changing HL beyond recognition like your are making out.

You didn't say this in words, but indicated it with the tram design, and your statement that you didn't see the point in replicating the level design.

My personal take on the game is actually pretty close to what came out, my jiff with the whole design is that in comparison with the Source engines limits and technologies, it looks shit.

The design isn't what makes it "look shit", since at the time it came out, it looked great. It's the technical aspects of the game that aren't as impressive as new games.

HL:Source, is, going to be updated with new models, textures, shaders and the like, by external mod teams.

The thing is, you've presented this project as one such mod team.. having read this thread, I was expecting a re-make of Half-Life, not a re-design, with changed level designs and completely different trams, for example.

Why would i go out of my way to work for say 2 years on this when i would be so much prouder of having produced something with the above technologies which keeps to HL in all ways except the expandability of some levels which can now be updated (which Valve would have done) if the technology was available back then.

Again, you're implying that working on a re-make wouldn't satisfy you, and you wouldn't get enough out of it without being creative with the design of the game. Again I suggest that you would really get something out of working on an original mod.

I don't want to seem like I'm continually attacking you, but really, a re-make that's not true to the original would annoy a great many people (remakes of movies, for example, where the new movie is too liberal with changes, always irritate fans of the original), not to mention the possibility that Valve may not even want you to do it. You really should e-mail Gabe on that.

 

[jheaddon]

I don't mean to sound like i'm having a dig but many things have changed since the opening of the project.

I also meant that due to technologies the game looked shit compared to HL2, by that i mean level editor limits such as design space and entity linking.

Changed level designs doesn't mean you'll never see the levels again, in fact what was meant by it was that instead of going for the Exact layout of HL, it would be have a great deal of the already amazing levels from HL, although the less liked ones (for example the transit, which wasn't widely enjoyed but is key to the game) would be layed out slightly different to take advantage of Source and try make them more enjoyable whilst still keeping true to the story.

It's not like we're going to be adding random levels with no meaning to the story or that are unwanted. Neither removing "pointless" or key ones, i.e. all of them.

I've tried emailing them but no reply.

Refering back to the tram design, it was a concept, doesn't mean it'll be used or even considered, i happened to be bored this morning.

Many things are open to debate about how they should be gone about, hence why everything is being made public, so the community can feedback upon what should and shouldn't be done before development goes underway

 

[Logic]

I'm not suggesting that you'll just add things randomly, it's just that the tram design suggested that you'd be willing to change the design of things significantly without need, and for purely aesthetic reasons, even if that makes it less appropriate in the world.

I agree that some levels could benefit from slight tweaking, but the way you said that you didn't see the point in re-making levels seemed to suggest that more often than not, level design would be altered.

Anyway, I appreciate that you're putting these ideas up for discussion, gathering community input. I'm just offering my input

In my view, a project like this should be a re-make, not a re-design, for all the reasons I've specified. I think if you tamper too much, you'll get a lot of people questioning your decisions, and the end result may not feel like Half-Life. My advice is not to take design decisions lightly, and analyse every aspect of Half-Life the way it is now, and understand the reasoning behind it fully before changing it. Only then will any overhaul do justice to the incredible game that Half-Life is.

 

[jheaddon]

Ok scratch all my thoughts,

What do you reckon to the look of Black Mesa:

Futuristic
Highly-technologically advanced
A bit of above but kind of rustic/mundane and broken down

Or something else?

I always thought it may have been futuristic but further thought does suggest Valve may have wanted it to be seen as run-down, underfunded kind of thing.


What views you have on the Hazard Course and the Tram Intro,
for Hazard Course i thought that instead of just offering it from the game menu, it might be more logical and realistic to have say Gordon enter the facility through the tram, meet the receptionist and then be asked if he would like the training? Remind people that its there.

The actual design for the Hazard Course has been kept pretty much the same if you read the .txt file in the other thread?

As for the tram journey, everyone loved that. Hence why i thought it should be kept fairly true to the original, but more visually pleasing as it now can be and it doesn't change the story much.

For example, have the tram leave topside (Blue Shift style) and pass through places like bounce (as the original does) and see gman. Just have it more visually pleasing.

 

[Logic]

It depends what area you're in (obviously highly used parts of the facility are maintained and kept clean), but I'm quite sure it's a part of the storyline that the facility is actually old, and was previously a military\nuclear facility. The design is modern in places, but I don't think it's really futuristic. Many places are very industrial, with the sorts of equipment (like elevators for transporting large things) that is far from new, though of course there is a lot of experimental equipment that could be considered somewhat futuristic, but those machines aren't really a part of the architecture of the facility. There are also many areas that are much less maintained, with slimy buildup near pipes, and things like that.

 

[jheaddon]

Yeh my thoughts as to why it seemed futuristic was the technology side.

What you reckon on my comments (above post) to tram journey and hazard course?

Also what you reckon to adding other elements of HL:Addons in? Such as in Blue Shift, where you see Gina/Nina the hologram woman bringing in the material sample on a trolley? You reckon something small like that could be seen on the inbound journey?

 

[Zeus]

I hope this mod stays alive, so we can get a REAL HL1 source mod, I'm willing to help make the maps once I get experienced with the editor.

Some things though (3 tenticle thing, gargantua, nihlanth) will be hard to redo especially the last boss fight.

 

[Logic]

I don't see a problem with your hazard course idea. As for making the tram ride more visually pleasing, of course I agree with that, that is after all the point of revamping. Making things look better, though, doesn't neccessarily mean re-designing them. I think it's important to stay true to the original design of specific locations. With that said, though, I don't think many people would complain if the tram ride could be skipped, it is a little annoying waiting through it every time you want to play a new game. Perhaps have the option to start a game just as the tram is pulling in to Section C.

 

[jheaddon]

Yeh nice idea with the skipping, sure can get a little annoying after a few plays!

Zeus - We're not going anywhere Also, what makes you think they will be hard to replicate? I think they'd be fairly easy to replicate at the same level as they currently are.

They will of course look stunning with the HL2 capabilities

AI is another thing, at first i suggested keeping to HL1 type of AI, but experimenting with HL2 NPC AI, see how it works out? Not sure how well it would work with the HL story layout in Black Mesa, would sure be interesting against the marines and such though

 

[Logic]

I'd say use HL2's AI, but tweak the parameters until they act like the original grunts\creatures. For example, the key behaviour should be the same (grunts getting cover, throwing grenades, etc etc) but any advantages of HL2's AI system (such as AI perhaps trying more sophisticated flanking or something, obviously I don't know about this since we haven't seen HL2's AI yet) would probably be a welcome addition. Also, I'd guess that HL2's AI would probably be a lot better than HL1's as far as NPCs navigating and following, so there will most likely be a considerable improvement overall in the AI if HL2's tech is incorporated.

About things being difficuly.. don't underestimate the task .. With source's technology at your disposal, the keyword for making good content is really 'detail'.. it'd take a long time to remake some of the bigger creatures with a HL2 level of detail.

 

[jheaddon]

Yeh, Dark Elf recons we should take "A few months on the garg" alone

Hence why i thought would be better to get several modellers, those to help with the maps, those for weapons and those for characters who would start straight off as they already know what they need to aim at.