HL1 port not all its cracked up to be?

[Mr. Redundant]

honestly valve are spreading themselves too thin
forget CS2
HL1 and Dod, and CS ports to source
forget TF2 and steam

just give me f'ing HL2, the rest can wait.

Because Gabe thinks like a hardcore gamer. He knows that a lot of people (like myself) would love to play HL1 with physics and screw around with customizing it and so he goes and does it for us.

well actually they said the porting proccess was pretty simplistic, and at first they were going to leave the HL1 and stuff ports to the community... now by porting it over by themselves (dod and cs etc) and CHARGING for it (speculation) they in essence stop people from doing it for free....

*do remember that back when the leak hit the internet a Port of HL1 for it hit soon after.... and it worked from start to finish flawlessly, sure it was just hl1 in source (ported as is, no work on it) but it was awesome.
some said it was the hacker who ported it, others said valve... regardless it was done a year ago.

 

[DarkStar]

^^ If the ports aren't updates (better level geometry, new models, high-res textures) than I don't think many people are going to pay for them.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

^^ If the ports aren't updates (better level geometry, new models, high-res textures) than I don't think many people are going to pay for them.

yep, but as I said, who knows how its going to be released/distributed/marketed

I mean look at CS:CZ if you dont believe Valve would re-distribute something for more cash after only a minor touch-up.

the platinum platinum source platinum pack?
"thats right now you can play all your fave Half-life mods in the HL2 engine!!!"

err I already own all of those... cant I just go through the proccess of re-assigning the old models the new skeletons, compiling, and converting my old .bsps?

"why yes you can, but you wont be allowed to play it through steam, it will be considered piracy and you will be shot... not to mention not be able to play with others that did purchase the PPSP (plat plat blah blah)"

erk :/

btw Im just speculating/messing around about this, dont take it seriously

just that Gabe said: "the ports will be released the same time as HL2"
gets my thinking either A:they arent packaged together, and they are trying to milk us.
or B: they are gonna be awesomely awesome and sell it in stores for cheap cheap (10 bucks) or distribute it via steam for free...

since released doesnt have to mean SOLD.

 

[Xcellere]

DarkStar, CS Source is much improved over HL1 version and will be on par with HL2 graphics. Rick sent me this email this morning:


As for CS quality, we are porting the games to HL2 so they will look like HL2 games so yes, we are making sure those games look as good as HL2 (within limits of course).

 

[dscowboy]

I mean look at CS:CZ if you dont believe Valve would re-distribute something for more cash after only a minor touch-up

That wasn't a minor touch-up, that was a full single-player game which they paid two dev studios a lot of money to produce. The minor touch-ups were to multiplayer.

Of course they'll charge for HL:Source if you don't have HL1 or HL2. You have to pay for HL1 right now, why would it suddenly become free? I'm sure they'll give it away to either A) HL2 customers, B) HL1 customers, or C) both.

 

[blahblahblah]

I don't think it will be a bad thing at all. Think about it this way: the more people that are on Source (all the CS players, all the DoD players, etc), the larger the audience will be for new HL2 mods. The largest audience always attracts the most talent. So the more Source-game customers there are, better the mods will be, and the more commercial value there will be in developing Source mods.

You are forgetting that those people will have no incentive to try out any new mods. Afterall, the mod they are playing is getting a huge graphical update and new maps to boot. If I was a CS player, why would I try a different mod when they are continually supporting a mod?

I understand that you should support mods, but at some point you need to let them die. Stringing along CS or whatever is not the best thing to do for the mod community. The mod community will not only have to put up with the challenges of designing and making a mod, but they will also have to draw away all of those people who are still playing update HL mods.

You don't have that problem with newly released games because no mods exists and people are willing to try new mods. HL2 will be different, when it is released it will already have several established mods. I really don't see how this will benefit the mod community or customers for that matter.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

DarkStar, CS Source is much improved over HL1 version and will be on par with HL2 graphics. Rick sent me this email this morning:


As for CS quality, we are porting the games to HL2 so they will look like HL2 games so yes, we are making sure those games look as good as HL2 (within limits of course).

my question is... why bother making CS:source so special if CS:2 is supposedly around the corner?

and if CS:2 doesnt exist... ATI were thinking of packaging "CS2" at one time.... were they refering to CS:Source?

damnit more questions than answers from this E3... wish they would just move diene esses en get das geme oot


EDIT: Blahblahblah, you have a very valid point

 

[dscowboy]

DarkStar, CS Source is much improved over HL1 version and will be on par with HL2 graphics

I think we can all see that from the video.

 

[phantomdesign]

When has the HL1 port been "cracked up to be" anything specail?

 

[Mr. Redundant]

That wasn't a minor touch-up, that was a full single-player game which they paid two dev studios a lot of money to produce. The minor touch-ups were to multiplayer.

and the single player that was developed by said company (ritual) sucked major monkey nuts... and they elected to can it, and instead add it as deleted scenes opposed to rather chucking it in the rubbish bin.

their final single player (turtle rock studios, or whatever) was CS 1.6: with smarter talking podbots.... it was Bot-Player, not single-player.

therefore in the end it only turned out being a minor touch-up.. since 1.5 had bots before they removed them (to make people who didnt have great connections suddenly want CS:CZ)

 

[DarkStar]

When has the HL1 port been "cracked up to be" anything specail?

I assumed (along with may others) that it would have updated graphics like CS-Source. Apparently this is not the case.

 

[dscowboy]

and if CS:2 doesnt exist... ATI were thinking of packaging "CS2" at one time.... were they refering to CS:Source?

Gabe said in the video "We're not calling it CS2". If there was a seperate CS2 project currently in existence, we wouldn't have said "we're not CALLING it CS2", he would've said "No, CS2 is something different" or "No, this is not CS2". It seems that the 'difference' between CS-Source and CS2 is just a label, they are the same project/product.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

Gabe said in the video "We're not calling it CS2". If there was a seperate CS2 project currently in existence, we wouldn't have said "we're not CALLING it CS2", he would've said "No, CS2 is something different" or "No, this is not CS2". It seems that the 'difference' between CS-Source and CS2 is just a label, they are the same project/product.

he didnt have to say any of that for there to be a CS:2

oh and

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Rooze [mailto:*******]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:30 PM
To: Rick Ellis
Subject: Major confusion in Half-Life town

Hi Rick,

Sorry to disturb you, but us folks at halflife2.net are a bit confused
about the awesome HL2 presentation that can now be seen on the internet.
It concerns the multiplayer aspect of HL2. We've seen footage of CS on
Source, but is this actually CS2 or is it what it says at the end:
Counter-Strike Source?

And is the game that is being demonstrated in the video the included
multiplayer mode of HL2? If not (and assuming CS2 and CS Source are
different things) is CS2 the included multiplayer?

We've be hearing a bit contradicting information on this subject, for
months it has been said that CS2 will be a seperate retail product, but
after Gabe spoke about multiplayer of HL2 and showed CS Source, so he
gave the intention that it is the included multiplayer.

I hope you understand the confusion

Thank you very much for reading this lengthy email.

Sincerely,

Julian Rooze

It is what it says it is: Counter-Strike ported to Source. It is NOT
CS2.

Rick

would that constitute as proof ?
no.
its all speculation

however at one time (was it the inquirer, or Hardocp) reported that ati were thinking of packaging "CS2" (not Cs:source) coupons with their cards.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Valve have the original high-res source art for the HL1 textures.
Convert to HL2 material.

Run conversion tool that changes entities and keys to their HL2 equivalents, switches from HL1 wad textures to HL2 materials

Send maps to compile farm.

Test maps for obvious errors.

Fix errors.

Release.

It's a touch-up, not a complete overhaul. Those of you expecting otherwise have expectations that are set waaaay too high.

Remaking each level, each model, re-recording the sound etc. would take them almost as long as it took to make HL in the first place.

Make your minds up what you want - HL2 or HL1 Redux

 

[dscowboy]

I understand that you should support mods, but at some point you need to let them die. Stringing along CS or whatever is not the best thing to do for the mod community.

Stringing along CS? The mod will die when people get tired of it, or find something better, it's not Valve's job to 'kill' the mod. They couldn't kill it if they wanted to, if they stopped development on it today people would still be playing it 5 years from now. Look at TFC!

Innovation isn't dependent on killing old mods. If you make gameplay that's more attractive to a large number of CS players, they will move to the new mod. Or, better yet, if you make better gameplay that's attractive to the kind of people who have no interest in CS (ie, most of the people in the world), you win again. Trying to kill a popular mod just isn't productive.

 

[Soundwave]

Valve have the original high-res source art for the HL1 textures.
Convert to HL2 material.

Run conversion tool that changes entities and keys to their HL2 equivalents, switches from HL1 wad textures to HL2 materials

Send maps to compile farm.

Test maps for obvious errors.

Fix errors.

Release.

It's a touch-up, not a complete overhaul. Those of you expecting otherwise have expectations that are set waaaay too high.

Remaking each level, each model, re-recording the sound etc. would take them almost as long as it took to make HL in the first place.

Make your minds up what you want - HL2 or HL1 Redux

All I was expecting was the exact same Half-Life game, but with HL2 textures and models, as well as ragdoll and object physics (despite there not being many instances for them to be used). A barebones conversion, not one with all new levels and scripted sequences and all that crap. Just a visual update with ragdoll for the enemies and allies. Perhaps that is wanting too much, but if a mod community can do it for free, I don't see why anyone should have to pay for a version of Half-Life put into Source that basically has nothing changed.

 

[Soundwave]

Stringing along CS? The mod will die when people get tired of it, or find something better, it's not Valve's job to 'kill' the mod. They couldn't kill it if they wanted to, if they stopped development on it today people would still be playing it 5 years from now. Look at TFC!

Innovation isn't dependent on killing old mods. If you make gameplay that's more attractive to a large number of CS players, they will move to the new mod. Or, better yet, if you make better gameplay that's attractive to the kind of people who have no interest in CS (ie, most of the people in the world), you win again. Trying to kill a popular mod just isn't productive.

Very true. A good example of a mod with innovation still succeeding within a FPS market dominated by CS is Natural Selection. That game is immensely popular, despite the CS community's dominance.

 

[dscowboy]

he didnt have to say any of that for there to be a CS:2

Let's pretend you're working on two projects. One is called Dog, and one is called Cat. You present Dog. Someone from the audience says "Is this Cat?". Do you really think that "We're not calling it Cat" is a sensible answer in that situation?

however at one time (was it the inquirer, or Hardocp) reported that ati were thinking of packaging "CS2" (not Cs:source) coupons with their cards.

It's pretty likely that what the inquirer thought was CS2 is actually CS:Source.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

what Blablahblah was trying to say was, with a new game coming out on a new engine... theres that "gotta be first" incentive for making fresh new mods, theres no competition, and even if the mod is lackluster or primitive in it's infancy, more people are prone to try it out simply because its there...

with CS:Source now in the picture, sure its the same game with a graphical touch up but still... now we have CS on our nice new engine.... so now Joe and Carl the guys who were going to start "nazy seals with crazy skeels" are going to have a tough time finding people who are willing to play their mod and lend support...and it might have sucked initially but with some community feedback and support could have been the new CS/clone/killer...
but now people are satiated by CS, and wont look at "Navy Seals with Crazy Skeels" until its in a more polished stable format... people wont bother applying to help their mod because it just doesnt cut it.

cmon dont you remember back in the day when HL came out... all the mods that sprung up.. how the scene was?

 

[GorgeousOrifice]

All I was expecting was the exact same Half-Life game, but with HL2 textures and models, as well as ragdoll and object physics (despite there not being many instances for them to be used). A barebones conversion, not one with all new levels and scripted sequences and all that crap. Just a visual update with ragdoll for the enemies and allies. Perhaps that is wanting too much, but if a mod community can do it for free, I don't see why anyone should have to pay for a version of Half-Life put into Source that basically has nothing changed.

That's the question -- this HL:Source thing, exactly what has been changed? It goes without saying the gameplay should be left entirely alone and the maps should be the same. If they want to add an extra level or something, fine, but don't change anything that was already there. Looking at CS:Source, it's pretty obvious that a lot of time went into new textures and models. How much, if any, of that artwork was lifted from HL2 is anybody's guess.

I expected that they would 1) substitute the HL2 models for headcrab, vortigaunt, etc., for the HL1 models and do new models for any enemies in HL1 that aren't in HL2; 2) steal applicable artwork from HL2 to reuse and make some new stuff to fill in the gaps; 3) apply physics to everything, not with the intent of changing gameplay but just so that models ragdoll and other little stuff. If it looks like CS:Source, I'm all over it. If it looks like a six-year-old bunch of textures, then never mind, I'll just wait for the mod that takes the time to do it right.

 

[nvrmor]

Let's pretend you're working on two projects. One is called Dog, and one is called Cat. You present Dog. Someone from the audience says "Is this Cat?". Do you really think that "We're not calling it Cat" is a sensible answer in that situation?



It's pretty likely that what the inquirer thought was CS2 is actually CS:Source.

actually it seems its only cs:cz.
link

 

[Mr. Redundant]

Let's pretend you're working on two projects. One is called Dog, and one is called Cat. You present Dog. Someone from the audience says "Is this Cat?". Do you really think that "We're not calling it Cat" is a sensible answer in that situation?

no, but this is Valve we are talking about here... you dont get more cryptic than them. thats why I said by them not stating what you suggested, it means absolutely nothing.

my point was, we dont have enough information to base any facts on.
CS:source is nothing but a port of cs1.6 into the Source engine
CS:2 would be a sequel to said mod.
what if what we thought was TF2, was in fact TF:source?
since they stated that TFC would be ported as with their other mods, into source... maybe when they said they were making TF2 a couple years ago they meant they were making the source PORT of TF hmm?

It's pretty likely that what the inquirer thought was CS2 is actually CS:Source.

yep thats what I was implying

We know absolutely nothing about any of the ports/sequels they have planned.
I didnt state anything was coming out (and honestly I dont care Im not a fan of CS) merely that it could.
and now with CS:S coming out, CS:CZ is looking mighty shite'y (not that it didnt before) so in essence if they were charging us for CS:S and then a couple months later released CS:2 it would be more of the same from Valve.

but nothing has happened yet.... we are all still waiting on Hl2.. I could honestly care less about anything else (including the ports, TF2 and CS2)

edit: just including this to show where my idea that there was a CS2 came from (as unfounded as they come)
http://www.csnation.net/viewnews.php/4389/
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14979
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15820

and I assumed that it would be something more than CS:source because it wouldnt be much more than a gimmick if it were only CS:S.. mean if thats the case why not the ports bundle?, or carry on with the HL2 mess?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Just a visual update with ragdoll for the enemies and allies.

What I highlighted earlier was a visual update. It's possible that they did update the models. This is the important bit:

No-one knows

Why not wait and see before bitching about it?

 

[Soundwave]

I expected that they would 1) substitute the HL2 models for headcrab, vortigaunt, etc., for the HL1 models and do new models for any enemies in HL1 that aren't in HL2; 2) steal applicable artwork from HL2 to reuse and make some new stuff to fill in the gaps; 3) apply physics to everything, not with the intent of changing gameplay but just so that models ragdoll and other little stuff. If it looks like CS:Source, I'm all over it. If it looks like a six-year-old bunch of textures, then never mind, I'll just wait for the mod that takes the time to do it right.

There we go. That's EXACTLY what I'd like to see. I see people mentioning them putting in vehicles and all that, and...no. Just no. That's not the kind of update I want.

 

[Ghost Freeman]

Hah, Valve screws us again.

Then again no one knows.

 

[Soundwave]

What I highlighted earlier was a visual update. It's possible that they did update the models. This is the important bit:

No-one knows

Why not wait and see before bitching about it?

I'm going by what was quoted in the very first post of this thread. Where Doug says that most of the changes will "be invisible", meaning not graphical updates. He specifically answers with this when asked if the models will be updated to the Hl2 models. I'd say that's enough knowledge on the subject to complain a little

 

[DarkStar]

I expected that they would 1) substitute the HL2 models for headcrab, vortigaunt, etc., for the HL1 models and do new models for any enemies in HL1 that aren't in HL2; 2) steal applicable artwork from HL2 to reuse and make some new stuff to fill in the gaps; 3) apply physics to everything, not with the intent of changing gameplay but just so that models ragdoll and other little stuff. If it looks like CS:Source, I'm all over it. If it looks like a six-year-old bunch of textures, then never mind, I'll just wait for the mod that takes the time to do it right.

Yes, this is exactly what I was expecting too. It would be alot of work but if you're going to do it, do it right.

 

[nvrmor]

actually it seems its only cs:cz.
link

cs:cz x800 bundle

 

[Apos]

You can't just port over a mod if all you have is the old playable content. You need the original source content: like the higher-res textures, new animations, models etc. No one would be able to just instantly port Dod and have it look anywhere near as good as an official port.

 

[wayne white]

this for the guy who havent finished hl1 yet:"gordon freeman ,in the flesssssh...or should i say,in the HEV."

 

[Mr. Redundant]

cs:cz x800 bundle

yeah but check my links from earlier, its a different bundle.

dont you think its silly to bundle something like CS:CZ with a brand new top of the line card like the X800?.... I mean CS:CZ could probably run perfectly fine on an old p100mhz with a geforce2 mx lol

You can't just port over a mod if all you have is the old playable content. You need the original source content: like the higher-res textures, new animations, models etc. No one would be able to just instantly port Dod and have it look anywhere near as good as an official port.

I wonder if there is high quality source content (as in high quality textures) or was everything just created as it should be, and its just our assumption that they have higher quality stuff stashed away.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

When you make a texture for HL, you don't make a 256-colour, 128.x128 texture. You make a 1024x1024 (or bigger!), full 32-bit texture and scale down.

 

[nvrmor]

yeah but check my links from earlier, its a different bundle.

dont you think its silly to bundle something like CS:CZ with a brand new top of the line card like the X800?.... I mean CS:CZ could probably run perfectly fine on an old p100mhz with a geforce2 mx lol

well considering you linked to the inquirer, it really isnt saying much about the validity of a cs:2 bundle. :rolling:

 

[Mr. Redundant]

well considering you linked to the inquirer, it really isnt saying much about the validity of a cs:2 bundle. :rolling:

I know, thats why I said it might as well be unfounded.

 

[evil^milk]

I really hoped that Valve could make a full conversion of HL1 to the Source engine, too bad it won't be this way. Like some have said, let's hope good mod teams make a good mod of HL1 and OpFor

 

[Apos]

When you make a texture for HL, you don't make a 256-colour, 128.x128 texture. You make a 1024x1024 (or bigger!), full 32-bit texture and scale down.

Definately. In the post E3 2003 media blitz, Gabe and Jay Stelly were saying how they have a lot of the original high quality source content, some of which they were able to use for HL2 (they only mentioned sounds, but perhaps they have all the higher res textures around as well).

 

[Apos]

honestly valve are spreading themselves too thin
forget CS2
HL1 and Dod, and CS ports to source
forget TF2 and steam

Though, don't they have teams that wouldn't be working on HL2 anyway? The Dod guys do Dod, the CS guys do CS... etc.

 

[DarkStar]

When you make a texture for HL, you don't make a 256-colour, 128.x128 texture. You make a 1024x1024 (or bigger!), full 32-bit texture and scale down.

Yeah, but when you're making a texture for HL you know its going to be scaled down, losing alot of the detail. So you don't put a whole lot of detail in it in the first place and you make what amounts to a gray wall. Whereas in HL2 you know that everything you draw is going to be able to be seen in the final product. So you draw more detail into it from the beginning, and you make a wall that is pitted and scratched and has paint coming off and stuff.

Then again, I really don't know a whole lot about texture creation so maybe that's not how it works.

 

[thedarkangel]

I didn't read all the posts but some of you seem to don't understand how they implied the content would be updated. They implied each mod may be sold on it's own for it's own budget price and this is what led most of us to believe they would each be upgraded. Although it's mostly been them beating around the bush, They seriously must sell this in a bundle for a cheap price. There's no other way.

 

[freeorangeshoes]

cs, cs source, tfc, blah blah blah

none of that will matter because a new 'killer' mod is going to be developed for hl2 (like what cs is to hl1). sure the above mods are cool, but they dont take advantage of everything source has to offer, even in an updated form. someone will make something that does, and it will replace all of those.