HL2 A.I. discussion. Post impressive/poor moments

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Poita

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There seems to be dissagreement among the players as to whether the A.I. in HL2 is any good or not.
I seem to remember being far more impressed with the ducking and flanking of the special forces troops in HL1 but that maybe because I'd never seen anything like it until then and was impressed by the novelty. I do remember judging every other games A.I. by the HL1 standard since and never seeing any that beat it.
Personally i was unimpressed with the combine A.I. in HL2 (and very jacked off with the friendly troop A.I. clustering around me all the time).
I suppose the true test is if there was any action that stuck in your mind.

Post your experiences here. What impressed you or what failed to impress you.
 
Ha ha ha that is some damn funny stuff.
It almost makes all the frustration and cursing at my ai help to be able to see that at the end.
 
AI was very good. They are really the best any action game has to offer. Major problem seems to be though that they rely heavily of info_nodes and info_node_hints to be succesful. If succesful placement of those fails, then the AI fails.

I don't care what anyone says of "teh sux AI" but I feel it's really good, studied it long enough by watching them fight eachothr and me, although it may not do special stuff like kicking in doors.

One thing that really struck me is how really well they handle friendly fire, it's something quite rare, and only happens when spawning an excessive amount of soldiers. They really avoid shooting eachother, and find new firing positions to shoot from. They usually line up in a horizontal line, or when charging something, in a column formation. Something thay annoyed the hell out of me in HL, was that marines constantly killed eachother (with nades and gunfire) but this is pretty much resolved completely.
 
It seems as if people were playing two different games. I am very impressed by the AI - very. It surpasses the HL1 AI in several ways. In HL1, if a marine ran for cover, you could shoot it in the back and the marine would ignore it. In HL1, the old trick of sitting behind a corner/door, waiting for the enemy to come and blasting the shotgun always worked. In HL2, some flanking maneuvers I have seen by the enemy were awesome.

Teammate AI was great for me as well. They were actually helping, finding cover, doing pretty good firing and not doing anything particularly stupid. What I liked was how teammates would get out of your way if they blocked it - though that was never a major concern for me. In Anticitizen One, when fighting inside that security nexus thingie, the AI seemed to shine.
 
You guys do realise if you want the friendly AI out of your way you can ORDER THEM TO A SPOT????? I found this so cool and useful. Especially when I needed them to draw sniper fire :thumbs:

Combine AI is good but I didn't see any of this door breaking stuff that we saw in E3 2003.
 
Space Cowboy said:
You guys do realise if you want the friendly AI out of your way you can ORDER THEM TO A SPOT????? I found this so cool and useful. Especially when I needed them to draw sniper fire :thumbs:
Click to expand...

Yeah seriously, I really think most people here have them following them around all the time, but with a little managing you can prevent them crossing your path most of the time. I can only remember one instance where I took damage because of AI blocking me, I ran away from a grenade and they stood in the doorpost. But I definitely agree with the criticism that the game should have a 'stay at your damn spot retard' button. Too many have died because of their enthusiasm to follow me.
 
The combine ai is pretty good, especially later in the game. The rebel ai could have used a little more work, but it still is good. One moment that impressed me was in the follow freeman chapter where I had 4 people following me and took a jump two stories down in a war-torn building. I turned around to see if they followed me, and they didn't so I though I lost them (oh well), but a couple of seconds later they all came hurtling down a flight of stairs to join me again. Pretty impressive I would say.

The main problems with ai was how poor they were to avoid grenades, and inability to take up suitable firing-positions (rebel problem only, the combine did this very well).

I can understand that finding firingpositions while at the same time keeping close to the one free man is a daunting ai-task, but avoiding grenades _should_ be doable with little effort.

.bog.
 
It seems to me it depends on how you play.

If you go in rambo style, then its almost as if the AI doesn't know what to do and sort of charges you.

But if you set up a strategic position they usually react very well. I remember hiding in one of those big red crates and firing at this combine soldier who was a long distance away. While we were in the firefight another combine soldier snuck up behind me with a shotgun. I was done for.
 
i liked the AI, yes npc's blocking the doors was irritating at some points but most of the time i liked the tactics the combine were using

u know when theres four of 'em shooting @ u and u take two down one of the two that are still alive falls back and starts circling around u to get u in the back while the other takes cover and keeps shooting @ u
 
I'm sure the AI is good, but there weren't that many things that made me consciously go "wow". I think that's what people need to see to feel the AI is good. Perhaps valve need to work on creating a more dynamic battle ground, to give the AI a greater 'choice' of moves/strategies?
 
I'm with ShadowFox on this one, take a look at the very last section of the Highway 17, where the gas station is.

Everytime I fight this battle the Combine AI flanks me--if you take up an cover positions around the buildings in that scenario the combine troopers will cover each other and flank you. They even use supressing fire it seems. Grenades and Assualt Rifle fire to keep you pinned down until the guys with the Shot guns can flank you. But if you go back to the otherside of the forcefield the AI almost seems not to be able to see you. . . so there are definatley some glitches in the programming somewhere.

Sometimes the AI impresses me by doing things I'd only wished that Far Cry AI would do, and other times I seem them doing things so stupid that the HL1 AI wouldn't have done them. . . I think the problem might be in some areas they are quite robust and have lots of options. In others it's like they don't have enough options to work with the circumstances, so the AI gets confused.
 
I think the AI is absolutely great. The Combine don't follow you around like they had aimbot, they actually stand around looking at the spot they last saw you.. I noticed this at the "buggy stops" where you fought a bunch of soldiers here and there, it was awesome to sneak up behind them.

Also, later in the game they remind me of the HL enemy soldiers, they are so tough and smart it's scary. They're ruthless at always circling around, throwing grenades, finding cover spots and ALWAYS getting you cornered in or surrounded. I love it.

The friendly AI is pretty much okay compared to most games, I must say.
 
ShadowFox said:
It seems to me it depends on how you play.

If you go in rambo style, then its almost as if the AI doesn't know what to do and sort of charges you.

But if you set up a strategic position they usually react very well. I remember hiding in one of those big red crates and firing at this combine soldier who was a long distance away. While we were in the firefight another combine soldier snuck up behind me with a shotgun. I was done for.
Click to expand...

I agree. Skill and play style make a big difference in how the AI reacts.

Two things to remember about HL2: (1) You are a super hero. The game constantly puts you against 5, 8, 10, or MORE enemies at a time. HL2 centers on beating the odds of a large group, not one-on-one duals. The AI is setup to be a challenge in a group, but not over powering. (2) Many of us play online frequently and are not just good, but very good. This means unless they give the enemies weapons as powerful and as accurate as us we are going to beat them every time.

Those are VERY important things to remember when judging how the HL2 AI was implimented.

I have seen 2 other people play other than myself. I played through on Normal with no problems. Fun, yes. Super challenging? Not most of the time. I thought the AI was excellent bar a few annoying things (not stupid, but annoying). Because I am a twitch player I often rushed-fired, found cover+reloaded, flanked, etc... I found that they would take up defensive positions. They did hide to reload, they did retreat when shot at while another would cover them. They did flank, etc... I thought the AI was very good. The problem was they were not STRONG enough to fend me off, so I was usually storming their position head shotting them left and right. But I play a lot of online games (mainly Desert Combat right now) and I do the same thing to humans, so it is not bad AI.

Now, my brother also played Normal and REALLY struggled. He is an ok online player (~ a 1:1 kill:death ratio). They constantly pinned him down and were swarming him with others giving cover. So if he engaded the guys coming in on him he would get shot by the guys giving cover. When they would flush him with grenades he was in a lot of trouble usually. He spent most of the game with less than 15% health and he died a bit. The AI really gave him a challenge, even though his guns were more powerful and more accurate.

My cousin played on Easy. He constantly said, "This is hard!" He is a 4:5 KDR online player. So he is not bad, but the average online player will kill him a little more often than he kills them (or, realistically, he is average, but really good players may own him). He played really defensive and the AI really gave him a hard time with pinning him down and moving in on him. I saw the combine flank him a lot and cover eachother while one would move in. If he shot at one guy he would get cover and another would cover and fire back. The Zombies were a BIG challenge for him.

We have to remember with the AI that it will never make EVERYONE happy. for the top 5-10% of players no AI, without having excellent AIM and getting one hit kill headshots, will ever be enough. For the other players the AI overwhelms them. There has to be compromises.

Overall I thought the AI was very good. The combine gunships seem to do very well, even use buildings for cover. The zombies are actually pretty smart and the poison and fast zombies have EXCELLENT AI. The Ant Lions were amazing to watch (they rush, but their path selection and taking high ground was very good). Ant Lions vs. Combine were also very fun to watch. The basic combine were ok. In groups they were organized, but not elite. Their bad aim and weak weapons really did them in. The snipers had pretty good aim and seemed to cover their areas very well. The turret guns worked very well. The advanced combine flanked a lot and covered their forces well and also knocked over the turrets. Striders were ok--yeah, they had big guns, but you could get under them. I guess it was a compromise because if they were quicker/more accurate with the big guns they would have been very very hard to beat. Man hacks seemed to find their way around well, and so did the flying cameras.

All in all I would say I was happy. They never seemed to run while getting hit. If they got shot they would return fire or seek IMMEDIATE cover. Path detection was GREAT. I did not see them getting caught on stuff at all. They seemed very organized and knew what to do most of the time.

I think better players could appreciate the AI more if they were more accurate and more powerful and if the game gave you more positions where you were stuck in the defensive without as much cover. The game always put them at risk or gave you good ways to sneak in. Even with the huge turrent buildings on the beach--plenty of rock formations for cover + the ant lions to draw fire. I would like to see an open area where you had 2 cars for cover and they have elevation and supperior cover. When the SDK comes out I will probably make a few small maps just to try this stuff out... see how good they really are!

Things I would like to see changed (either for a super hard mode or in general):

1.) The 'C' buttom working better. Yeah, they go, but then they will say a few moments later "Follow Freeman!" GRRR! I said stay put!!

2.) They can get in the way in buildings and doorways. Again, see 1.

3.) Make the enemies aim better (very easy to do, I am pretty sure the SDK will allow this to be scaled... note the snipers are accurate, so the other AI NPCs can also).

4.) Make the enemies weapons the same as Gordon's weapons in damage.

5.) Combine shoot more while on the run. Even if they are less accurate, allow them to spray and pray while moving, especially when their cover men are taken out.

6.) Maps designed to put Freeman in a weak strategical position against a better equiped enemy.
 
I actually didnt really find the "getting in the way" stuff bad. When you were in a tight spot it was hard to move past but they did move slightly to help, even the ant lions did. they basicly ended up jumping off cliffs nearly to get out of your way. Although i dont know what you would want to expect, do you want to be able to run through them or they run off so you can move past. Well i just did find it that bad.

All the other AI stuff is pretty cool though, you do actually dont know what there going to do in some cases. Alot of people try to make there AI cool because they run up behind you but its nothing but a novalty and really predictable. There was one time in HL2 when the combine kept moving but i just didnt know where i kept thinking they were gonner come up behind but everytime i checked one of them was just covering the area so i couldnt go that way.

The combine tend to keep there distance and dont run aimlessly at you which is cool. Like if you go round the corner of a building they dont just run straight at the corner they some times move around at a distance. Some times they do run at you but they never seem to do it to me when i want it such as having a pack of ant lions next to me they never come.
 
Since I never used the C command, I have to blame most of their stupidity on myself and my lack of care for their poor pixelated faces.

They died. They all died. And I laughed. cl_ragdollcollide 1, please. HAhaahahhahahahahahahhahhahahQAHAHahahhahaHAAHHAHahhaH!!!
 
Acert93 I agree with everything you just said. I think the problem is that the most skilled players are finding the game too easy, and are blaming what they see as "Poor A.I.".

I though the AI in the game was great. Just think about all the little things that they did. They could flank you, take defensive positions behind any object, take cover while reloading, react to grenades, work together, navigate rough terrain, retreat if they were being beaten, blah blah blah. I don't think enough has been said about the pathfinding in HL2. Only once during the entire game did the AI get stuck on something interrupting the gameplay for a moment. I though it was great how the rebels could jump off ledges to follow you, or find another path to meet up with you. And the striders got around great too.

I do wish that the weapons were generally more accurate. The combine don't have bad aim its just that the rifles have ridiculously high bullet spread. I guess they should have programmed the AI to fire single shots at longe ranges to compensate for recoil.

The AI itself seems good to me, I guess Valve just didn't want to make some uber-hard game where the combine can take as much damage as you can and can hit you in the eyes with a bullet from fifty yards away.


The only thing that got on my nerves occasionally was the friendly AI getting in your way. It wasn't really a big deal but throwing a grenade just to watch it hit some guy in the ass and bounce back in your face was annoying. I did use the C command but once you get more than 10 feet away from them they start following you again. At first I tried to keep them alive, but eventually I just hauled ass whether they could keep up or not. They did prove to be excellent decoys for striders and manhacks though.
 
Good AI isn't about difficulty. It's about how enjoyable it is and, for me, Half Life 2 managed the task flawlessly.
Sure, it didn't make the impression that Half Life 1 did but you have to remember the context of that game versus the contemporary situation.
 
I found the A.I. to be rather easy on normal, and simply mediocre on Hard. However I have been playing twitch FPS online for 5-6 years now and I would consider myself a pretty good player. (Usually get 3:1-4:1 KDR on pub servers) So I understand how if you made the game challenging for a player like me, it might be overwhelming and just plain not any fun to newer players. So I'm glad that Valve made the game enjoyable to all rather than cater only to newbies or only to vets.
 
Ehm...I think everyone is playing a different game than I.
I must be playing "Half of an AI script 2", because the AI was almost never, ever tricky.

In games like HL2 I always go in Rambo style, and the Combine just stand and fight...and get mowed down.
 
we11er said:
I'm sure the AI is good, but there weren't that many things that made me consciously go "wow". I think that's what people need to see to feel the AI is good. Perhaps valve need to work on creating a more dynamic battle ground, to give the AI a greater 'choice' of moves/strategies?
Click to expand...
I agree. The AI was actually really good, but the battleground wasn't designed to show it. Maybe those ATI levels will show the AI at its full capabilities :naughty: .
 
The only things that really annoyed me is how much the striders, gunships, and enemy vehicles were scripted. The enemy vehicles couldn't do ANYTHING without having every step mapped out for them, the gunships and striders would just circle the same spots, and if whatever was in front of them, or a little of to the sides, they shot at.
extremely dissapointing...
 
Very nice post, Acert93. I actually read through that.

I'd say the A.I. is good throughout most of the game. It's true that the A.I. would be quite easy for elite players, but then again, I doubt there would be many elite players that could take out 10 'decently' good players in CS. At once, of course.

I remember this one situation in Ravenholm though; I was low on health (one more hit would equal death), and 2 of those fast-headcrab-zombie guys were coming for me.
Thing is I died, and when I reloaded, I came into the same situation. I blocked up the doorway with crates (I figured I'd take them one on one or something).
Anyways, they starting pounding on the crates (naturally). I shot down one through the space between the door and the crates, but the other one had disappeared.
All of a sudden, the other one dropped through the glass ceiling, and killed me. He had climbed around.

It was the coolest thing evar.
 
Acert, just read your post, and while you have a great point, I have to wonder:
Am I not getting the full potential of the game because I'm too good at it?
:(
I hope Valve makes an über hard difficulty level for us.
 
MiccyNarc said:
Acert, just read your post, and while you have a great point, I have to wonder:
Am I not getting the full potential of the game because I'm too good at it?
:(
I hope Valve makes an über hard difficulty level for us.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna try to mod some sort of "Extreme" mode :E

From what I know, difficulty levels in HL2 are determined by stuff like damage you and enemies do. I believe for hard it was something like:

(compared to normal)

- You do 75% damage
- They do 150%
- You only find 75% of the ammo/items

But the biggest error is imo accuracy on hard, they're pretty blind really. The AI is great, but it's simply underpowered (the Houndeye Syndrome).
 
The AI seems very, very node dependant and that's why experiences of it vary so much. You can literally play the same level as me and have I completely different time of it- so no, you're not all uber-1337/super-crap or blind/mentally deprived- it happens. It's pretty weird really.

Basically, as everyone's pretty much noticed, nodes direct the actions of the NPCs. Thus nodes let them retreat, take cover, and engage in sneaky manoeuvres, as well as enacting "cutscenes".

Let's say you rush Combine soldier Number 1. You pass through the relevant area that prompts 2 and 3 to double back around the shack and shoot you in the back, while 1, strangely, stands there and dies.

Then I rush Combine soldier Number 1- only this time, I'm far to the left of the interception node that tells his reinforcements to get the hell over there. Thus he immediately ducks back into the shack and hides behind a crate, while his allies are blissfully unaware that he's being attacked, despite being seperated by a thin wooden wall.

Best moment? The Combine soldiers on Coastline ducking back into a corridor- one stayed and pelted me with grenades while the others snuck up on me.

Worst? A lever later, where I'm sniping soldiers with the buggy's guass gun. One goes down, the other rushes to his position and looks around. I somehow miss, he remains standing, and gets shot in the head once I recharge. I move up to the house, and a lone SMGer is firing at me- I shoot him repeatedly in the knee, and he doesn't bother moving. He eventually blows himself a way with a grenade that bounces off a fence.

Try reloading crappy parts until you experience great AI... bound to happen sooner or later :LOL:
 
the most impressive AI moment i saw:
on highway 17, at one of the checkpoints i went aroundt he combine filled building blowing out the windows and chucking grenades inside. Any normal AI would just run around and wait to get blown up, but these guys were smart. As soon as I started blowing out the windows they ran upstairs, so i chased them and killed all the combine in the attic, but not all the combine ran upstairs. Apparently on of the combine stayed behind (in the fireplace or sumthing) and while i was upstairs sniping at the next building with my crossbow, a combine killed me with a shotgun blast to the head from behind. I never heard him coming.
 
Edcrab, it doesn't seem fully dependant on info_node_hints. I've tried spawning Combine in the map coast01, that level where you get your buggy. They found perfect cover behind stuff, stuff that most likely doesn't have info_nodes to them (why would Valve plant info nodes for cover in a map where there are no enemies/allies to take cover?) so they don't need it, but it does seem to help a lot.
 
you have to realize, gordon can take out a combine with 5-6 pistol fire. a combine would probably have to empty two clips to kill him~~~~` thats why you find the AI is "not good enough"...
 
PvtRyan said:
I'm gonna try to mod some sort of "Extreme" mode :E

From what I know, difficulty levels in HL2 are determined by stuff like damage you and enemies do. I believe for hard it was something like:

(compared to normal)

- You do 75% damage
- They do 150%
- You only find 75% of the ammo/items

But the biggest error is imo accuracy on hard, they're pretty blind really. The AI is great, but it's simply underpowered (the Houndeye Syndrome).
Click to expand...

I like your idea. I wish Valve did a "Nightmare" mode like Id does. Maybe even add a meter on the Gravgun so you have limits on its use :eek:

Anyhow, if you make the guys more smarter, up their weapon damage, and then remove some explosive barrels, I think you will have a good mod :) Maybe even add a few extra guys and change positioning if it is not too hard/too big.

I look forward to an "Extreme" mode! Good luck!
 
mmilo said:
Very nice post, Acert93. I actually read through that.

I'd say the A.I. is good throughout most of the game. It's true that the A.I. would be quite easy for elite players, but then again, I doubt there would be many elite players that could take out 10 'decently' good players in CS. At once, of course.

I remember this one situation in Ravenholm though; I was low on health (one more hit would equal death), and 2 of those fast-headcrab-zombie guys were coming for me.
Thing is I died, and when I reloaded, I came into the same situation. I blocked up the doorway with crates (I figured I'd take them one on one or something).
Anyways, they starting pounding on the crates (naturally). I shot down one through the space between the door and the crates, but the other one had disappeared.
All of a sudden, the other one dropped through the glass ceiling, and killed me. He had climbed around.

It was the coolest thing evar.
Click to expand...

I had a similar experience. I did something abnormal for me and backtracked into a building. I thought I would funnel the baddies, coming up the drain pipes, through a doorway so I could bottleneck them. The first two guys came through the door and I dropped them. I wondered where the rest were. My question was answered as two more jumped me from behind as they had run up the staircase at my back.

Sure, I dished beatings on lots of combine but I do the same thing against real people. I tend to play very aggressive stick and move style and the AI does have problems pinning me down. It's fair enough because I don't expect the AI to easily do things that many people can't do.

The combine seemed very good at dodging anything but a well placed grenade and even the headcrabs changed direction to avoid your shots.
 
I've never really payed attention to Ai, If I walk past an enemy and he doesn't react then thats good for me.....an easy kill.

You don't want them to be too clever do you?

I don't see how people can get annoyed over this, they hide they dodge they crouch etc etc whast the problem?
 
they should make a dynamic setting, the better you played, the more damage they do to you, and the more accurate they were.
 
on a rooftop ledge in ravenholm, a climbing zombie was rushing towards me, so I ran back into the attic and shut the door. then, about fifteen seconds later, he killed me from behind.

He had jumped off the roof, gone through the front door, up two flights of stairs, down one flight of stairs, climbed up a ladder and slashed my back. It was insanely cool.

Also, playing ball with dog had some simple-but-sweet, AI.
 
The only really dumb thing that the AI ever did with me was when I was holed up in a building with a Strider stomping around outside and a dropship zooming overhead, and the occasional type 2 scanner... the rocket-weilding dude I had with me kept on either popping up onto the roof with me and running around where the Strider could see him, or running outside the building and getting killed taking on the big bastard...
 
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