HL2 A.I Vs. Halo 2 A.I.

[Asus]

HL 2 AI > Halo 2 AI
Why?
Because I'm not a console gamer and will never be playing Halo 2.

 

[Vegeta897]

The facts:

Halo 2

The AI for everything has been pumped up. Marines will hide behind cover, flip over tables for shelter, and call in snipers when needed. The Covenant will recognize destroyable elements, and blow away your cover. Enemies are no longer tied to zones on the map, and will hunt you wherever you go- or call in search parties to do so. The Covenant will also show off a bevy of new movies- expect to see them scurrying under ledges and climbing columns to take the action to new levels. Elites will move more jackal-like (the cat, not the Covie) and Jackals will act birdlike. Enemies will also use flashlights to search you out.

"Rumors",

The AI will be so good that the Brute's will dislike Jackals and vice versa, one of the guys in bungie's forum says that they'll actually have grudges and fights amongst them before you arrive.

Enemies can dual weild weapons

Enemies can also make their own cover (as in drop tables) and use them.

Enemies react when MC is around, as in you can actually see their expressions of being scared (improving on the grunt running away from battle formula).

Calling in for snipers sounds like it is part of a sequence, not really AI.
Enemies no longer tied to zones? Big deal, its basically making the zone bigger.
What the hell does AI have to do with the new way Jackals move?
Flashlights, a simple trigger to turn on a light in a triggered dark area.
The AI has nothing to do with Jackals and Brutes hating eachother! They are told by the programmers to be enemies! I am not seeing any AI here! (If you are thinking AI can simulate racism... )
Dual weilding weapons is not AI.
You already said enemies(NPCs) can make cover.
AI has nothing to do with reacting to your presence, they are just changing it from 'run away' to 'pose scared animation'

HL2 wins YAY!!!11

 

[Pitbul]

Halo 2's AI will be largley scripted. im sure you'll see that marine flipping over the same table every time you play through it. same with calling in a sniper. look at the E3 03 Demo, it was one hugely scripted sequence. but X-Box fanboys are so bent on Halo being the god of all things they'll probly say "OMG l00k at t3h s0ld13r!!11!1 h3 fl1pp3d 0v3r th4t s4m3 t4bl3 5 t1m3s thru t3h g4m3!!! OMGWTFBBQ h3 c4n r3m3mb3r!!!1!1!111! lololollollzZzz teh A1 pwnz0rz!!! c0z 1t c4n r3m3mb3r lolololoollllololzzZzZzz!!!!1!11

 

[lans]

Calling in for snipers sounds like it is part of a sequence, not really AI.
Enemies no longer tied to zones? Big deal, its basically making the zone bigger.
What the hell does AI have to do with the new way Jackals move?
Flashlights, a simple trigger to turn on a light in a triggered dark area.
The AI has nothing to do with Jackals and Brutes hating eachother! They are told by the programmers to be enemies! I am not seeing any AI here! (If you are thinking AI can simulate racism... )
Dual weilding weapons is not AI.
You already said enemies(NPCs) can make cover.
AI has nothing to do with reacting to your presence, they are just changing it from 'run away' to 'pose scared animation'

HL2 wins YAY!!!11

Halo's AI is awesome, have you guys ever wondered what would happen if you kill Keyes in the first level at the pillar of autumn after you take out the pistol?..crotana calls for back up of marines and they kill/hunt you down. Plus, try taking cover behind a wall, an elite will take the other route to smack you with his weapon.And that's just some of the good stuff I've told you about this 3 year old game...imagine the possibilities with halo2...

Sorry I didn't speak in such detail.

If jackals get in the line of fire of brutes' (or vice versa), they start shooting them back like barney did to you when he got pissed after you shot him. However this is not between a player and a NPC, it's between two NPCs.

What do you think tells them to witch on their flashlights in the dark? the AI has been hinted that in dark they HAVE to switch it on. Nope, if it was just a "button" why don't we see it in every stupid game?

I didn't mean just dual wield. If they go near a weapon and they're holding only one weapon at the momment, then they'll pick up another one lying on the floor. I suppose you don't call that AI using brains, eh?

Let's see, why do grunts run away, and jackals hold up their shield like a predator? true they have been programmed to do so, but they'll corner you and take you down in packs by co-ordinating together.

If calling snipers is not AI, then why do so many people call far cry's AI so great when it calls for back up?

 

[Subz]

halo2? you mean that xbox fps>??

lmao. Plz dont compare halflife2 with garbage.

 

[subtlesnake]

Halo 2's AI will be largley scripted. im sure you'll see that marine flipping over the same table every time you play through it. same with calling in a sniper. look at the E3 03 Demo, it was one hugely scripted sequence. but X-Box fanboys are so bent on Halo being the god of all things they'll probly say "OMG l00k at t3h s0ld13r!!11!1 h3 fl1pp3d 0v3r th4t s4m3 t4bl3 5 t1m3s thru t3h g4m3!!! OMGWTFBBQ h3 c4n r3m3mb3r!!!1!1!111! lololollollzZzz teh A1 pwnz0rz!!! c0z 1t c4n r3m3mb3r lolololoollllololzzZzZzz!!!!1!11

Do you have any proof to back up these statements? Even Halo's A.I wasn't scripted in this way.

 

[lans]

Halo 2's AI will be largley scripted. im sure you'll see that marine flipping over the same table every time you play through it. same with calling in a sniper. look at the E3 03 Demo, it was one hugely scripted sequence. but X-Box fanboys are so bent on Halo being the god of all things they'll probly say "OMG l00k at t3h s0ld13r!!11!1 h3 fl1pp3d 0v3r th4t s4m3 t4bl3 5 t1m3s thru t3h g4m3!!! OMGWTFBBQ h3 c4n r3m3mb3r!!!1!1!111! lololollollzZzz teh A1 pwnz0rz!!! c0z 1t c4n r3m3mb3r lolololoollllololzzZzZzz!!!!1!11

Can you prove this?

I'm not talking about story sequences (like seeing injured marines), I'm talking about combat. Heck, even HL2's story sequences are scripted, duh! what did you expect? AI to make their own dialogues and story?

Please don't speak garbage language like that, that just makes you look stupid.

 

[Vegeta897]

Halo's AI is awesome, have you guys ever wondered what would happen if you kill Keyes in the first level at the pillar of autumn after you take out the pistol?..crotana calls for back up of marines and they kill/hunt you down. Plus, try taking cover behind a wall, an elite will take the other route to smack you with his weapon.And that's just some of the good stuff I've told you about this 3 year old game...imagine the possibilities with halo2...

Sorry I didn't speak in such detail.

If jackals get in the line of fire of brutes' (or vice versa), they start shooting them back like barney did to you when he got pissed after you shot him. However this is not between a player and a NPC, it's between two NPCs.

What do you think tells them to witch on their flashlights in the dark? the AI has been hinted that in dark they HAVE to switch it on. Nope, if it was just a "button" why don't we see it in every stupid game?

I didn't mean just dual wield. If they go near a weapon and they're holding only one weapon at the momment, then they'll pick up another one lying on the floor. I suppose you don't call that AI using brains, eh?

Let's see, why do grunts run away, and jackals hold up their shield like a predator? true they have been programmed to do so, but they'll corner you and take you down in packs by co-ordinating together.

If calling snipers is not AI, then why do so many people call far cry's AI so great when it calls for back up?

Uhh, the people programmed the game that way you fool! Shooting captain keyes activates a sequence! Very simple! Not AI! It just makes the Marines hostile towards you! Jesus man.

Ok, so if the enemy is near a weapon, and he has one, he is told to pick it up. Big deal.
It would be cool if he already had two weapons, but the one on the ground was better so he would swap out. And even that isn't too impressive.
Half-Life had Grunts that flanked you with grenades if you hid, and that is a FIVE year old game.
Jackals get mad if they are shot by brutes? BIG DEAL! All it is is if a Brute projectile hits the Jackal, the Jackal turns hostile to the Brute that shot the projectile! I am not seeing the advanced AI here! AND, this EXACT thing was in Monoliths' Blood, which is like an EIGHT YEAR OLD GAME.

I don't understand your flashlight argument...

The Jackals working together sounds good to me. (Not saying HL2 doesn't have this)

I don't know about Farcry, but what makes you think these people are right? They could have been fooled just like you were.

 

[lans]

Sorry for the double post, but by the way if I were a "halo fanboy" as you call, I wouldn't be on a Half-life 2 fan site.

 

[Vegeta897]

Can you prove this?

I'm not talking about story sequences (like seeing injured marines), I'm talking about combat. Heck, even HL2's story sequences are scripted, duh! what did you expect? AI to make their own dialogues and story?

Please don't speak garbage language like that, that just makes you look stupid.

He wasn't saying story elements are AI. But the table... I think the AI is told to flip it over when the fight begins. Like if I were to move the table somewhere else, like in a place where it would be completely impractical to kick it down, he would still kick it. Or even worse, he would kick the air where the table would be.

But no one can prove ANYTHING, so don't think we think what we are saying is completely true.

And I think this thread belongs in the General Gaming thread. (Part of it's description is "X vs. X"

 

[lans]

Uhh, the people programmed the game that way you fool! Shooting captain keyes activates a sequence! Very simple! Not AI! It just makes the Marines hostile towards you! Jesus man.

Ok, so if the enemy is near a weapon, and he has one, he is told to pick it up. Big deal.
It would be cool if he already had two weapons, but the one on the ground was better so he would swap out. And even that isn't too impressive.
Half-Life had Grunts that flanked you with grenades if you hid, and that is a FIVE year old game.
Jackals get mad if they are shot by brutes? BIG DEAL! All it is is if a Brute projectile hits the Jackal, the Jackal turns hostile to the Brute that shot the projectile! I am not seeing the advanced AI here! AND, this EXACT thing was in Monoliths' Blood, which is like an EIGHT YEAR OLD GAME.

I don't understand your flashlight argument...

The Jackals working together sounds good to me. (Not saying HL2 doesn't have this)

I don't know about Farcry, but what makes you think these people are right? They could have been fooled just like you were.

Ok, my bad for the Keyes example, twas' a scripted sequence.

What I meant by the flashlight was that do you see enemies in halo2 with a fashlight all the time? no. As soon as they enter a dark atmosphere, they'll switch on their flashlights, and switch it off when they get out. Now that isn't scripted. They use "sense" to switch it on/off according to surrondings.

 

[Vegeta897]

Ok, my bad for the Keyes example, twas' a scripted sequence.

What I meant by the flashlight was that do you see enemies in halo2 with a fashlight all the time? no. As soon as they enter a dark atmosphere, they'll switch on their flashlights, and switch it off when they get out. Now that isn't scripted. They use "sense" to switch it on/off according to surrondings.

A simple trigger placed in the map.

I was expecting something more complicated than that, like not turning it on if they want to be sneaky.

 

[DarkStar]

That has nothing to do with it. Processor power doesn't come into play a lot when talking about AI.

Anyway, the Halo AI was fantastic! Even today, it holds its own among all the new titles. If they really do improve the AI even more so in Halo2, I wouldn't be suprised if it was equally good, or better than the one in HL2.

So what does come into play when talking about AI? Graphics card? RAM? I'm pretty sure AI is pretty CPU intensive dude, just like the physics calculations.

Although I do agree with you that the AI in Halo was fantastic. Probably still the best out there in terms of FPS games. Definitely better than the original HL AI, just play through the game on Legendary if you don't believe me.

 

[lans]

A simple trigger placed in the map.

I was expecting something more complicated than that, like not turning it on if they want to be sneaky.

A trigger...or an A.I hint.

Off topic: At least you agree it's A.I working there. Don't forget that Bungie is at the end of the day a developer of RTS games like myth, so a FPS of such good calibur coming from them is rather good. But I do dislike marathon 1/2.

 

[Vegeta897]

So what does come into play when talking about AI? Graphics card? RAM? I'm pretty sure AI is pretty CPU intensive dude, just like the physics calculations.

Although I do agree with you that the AI in Halo was fantastic. Probably still the best out there in terms of FPS games. Definitely better than the original HL AI, just play through the game on Legendary if you don't believe me.

Umm, I am not completely sure, but difficulty does NOT make the AI smarter, it simply adds more enemies, and makes enemies do more damage.

The same goes for HL2.

 

[lans]

Umm, I am not completely sure, but difficulty does NOT make the AI smarter, it simply adds more enemies, and makes enemies do more damage.

The same goes for HL2.

Umm, try out Halo's legendary. The A.I actually does act smarter...not just more enemies. Try it and then tell the results.

 

[Vegeta897]

Umm, try out Halo's legendary. The A.I actually does act smarter...not just more enemies. Try it and then tell the results.

Ehh sorry, I didn't really notice, and HALO seems to be a first to implement difficulty this way. I don't really care for that, because I think that you want people to experience the full AI in all its glory no matter what difficulty they choose, and just have damage adjusted.

 

[OCybrManO]

I have played it on Legendary, and the major change that I noticed is that they do a lot more damage and you do a lot less damage... so you have to be more cautious and take cover more often. It completely changed the pace of the game but I didn't notice the AI doing anything that seemed more intelligent.

 

[DarkStar]

Umm, try out Halo's legendary. The A.I actually does act smarter...not just more enemies. Try it and then tell the results.

I agree, trust me I was shocked Vegeta. But this is what impressed me so much.

 

[lans]

I have played it on Legendary, and the major change that I noticed is that they do a lot more damage and you do a lot less damage... so you have to be more cautious and take cover more often. It completely changed the pace of the game but I didn't notice the AI doing anything that seemed more intelligent.

Really?, in my case a grunt sticked a plasma grenade by going behind me.

Edit: something which I DEFINATELY didn't notice in the other modes.

 

[Vegeta897]

Really?, in my case a grunt sticked a plasma grenade by going behind me.

Edit: something which I DEFINATELY didn't notice in the other modes.

If you really feel the need to prove the AI changes through difficulty, pick a level and run through a certain part over and over, doing the same thing, and on different difficulty modes. This would be sufficient if you notice any differences betweeen difficulty modes.

 

[subtlesnake]

He wasn't saying story elements are AI. But the table... I think the AI is told to flip it over when the fight begins. Like if I were to move the table somewhere else, like in a place where it would be completely impractical to kick it down, he would still kick it. Or even worse, he would kick the air where the table would be.

Nothing in Halo was ever scripted in this way, so I think you're assuming a little too much. If a HL2 dev made the same promise, you'd all be defending him, it's just because Halo is the traditional PC gamer's target. Despite the fact Bungie's PR has always been trustworthy.

 

[Vegeta897]

Nothing in Halo was ever scripted in this way, so I think you're assuming a little too much. If a HL2 dev made the same promise, you'd all be defending him, it's just because Halo is the traditional PC gamer's target. Despite the fact Bungie's PR has always been trustworthy.

Well, it is just that we have seen video footage of the HL2 AI at work, but only heard word of mouth regarding HALO 2's AI.

Not that I am saying Bungie is full of liars.
If it is not too much trouble could you give me a link to where they make these statements?

 

[lans]

If you really feel the need to prove the AI changes through difficulty, pick a level and run through a certain part over and over, doing the same thing, and on different difficulty modes. This would be sufficient if you notice any differences betweeen difficulty modes.

I have indeed played the single player campaign for more than 12 times (no joke). Just imagine that you finished off biggies like elites and hunters and this nasty little bugger stick a plasma grenade right before you pass a checkpoint...these kind of "surprises" actually happened in Legendary.

 

[subtlesnake]

I'm afraid Bungie has confirmed that the A.I does not use any new tactics on legendary. What does happen is a few variables are tweaked such as the liklyhood that an enemy will dodge a grenade.

 

[lans]

are you talking about halo2 or the original?

If it's the later, can you confirm it.

 

[subtlesnake]

are you talking about halo2 or the original?

If it's the later, can you confirm it.

The original, I'll try and find the interview now.

Edit: Gotcha!

there are actually no extra code or behavior routines running on legendary, at all. there are occasionally extra scripts which place more guys or introduce waves where they weren't before, but the AI code is the same.
_however_, there are a bunch of decision settings in their behavior profiles that get tweaked. likeliness to seek cover, throw grenades, use melee attacks, that sort of thing.
but the most amusing part is that when you play legendary, you're scared. and so you pay more attention to what the AI's doing. and since they're more buff than they are on normal, chances are they're going to actually execute their plan before you kill them. it's hard to seem smart when you're a corpse.

http://halo.bungie.org/misc/interviews/getinthegame.butcher.010902/

 

[blahblahblah]

I have indeed played the single player campaign for more than 12 times (no joke). Just imagine that you finished off biggies like elites and hunters and this nasty little bugger stick a plasma grenade right before you pass a checkpoint...these kind of "surprises" actually happened in Legendary.

Yeah, so who cares if that happens on legendary? I don't like to play games on hard.

You want to impress me with AI? Make the AI do smart things (ie flanking, responding to stray fire, etc) on average difficulty level. I shouldn't have to play a game on hard difficulty level to see what the AI is capable of.

 

[lans]

Back on topic:

HL2 Another fact (nothing very special,though):

One of the hl2 playtest (IGNs) said that the combine see that if you pick up something like a barrel of oil, they'll aim their target on the barrel so that it blows you up...also mentioned that they weren't blindly shooting at gordon, were aiming at the barrel.

 

[DarkStar]

The original, I'll try and find the interview now.

Edit: Gotcha!

_however_, there are a bunch of decision settings in their behavior profiles that get tweaked. likeliness to seek cover, throw grenades, use melee attacks, that sort of thing.

http://halo.bungie.org/misc/interviews/getinthegame.butcher.010902/

Hmm...this is what I always thought of when I thought about AI...lol.

 

[Vegeta897]

Back on topic:

HL2 Another fact (nothing very special,though):

One of the hl2 playtest (IGNs) said that the combine see that if you pick up something like a barrel of oil, they'll aim their target on the barrel so that it blows you up...also mentioned that they weren't blindly shooting at gordon, were aiming at the barrel.

Awesome awesome awesome. Can't wait to see all the little things Valve has prepared for, including this one.

@Darkstar, nahh you are a little off, that is simply changing a number. (Basically)

 

[lans]

The original, I'll try and find the interview now.

Edit: Gotcha!

there are actually no extra code or behavior routines running on legendary, at all. there are occasionally extra scripts which place more guys or introduce waves where they weren't before, but the AI code is the same.
_however_, there are a bunch of decision settings in their behavior profiles that get tweaked. likeliness to seek cover, throw grenades, use melee attacks, that sort of thing.
but the most amusing part is that when you play legendary, you're scared. and so you pay more attention to what the AI's doing. and since they're more buff than they are on normal, chances are they're going to actually execute their plan before you kill them. it's hard to seem smart when you're a corpse.

http://halo.bungie.org/misc/interviews/getinthegame.butcher.010902/

Maybe that was one of those "decision settings", then.

 

[thedarkangel]

The leak is OLDER than what was shown in E3 2003 .

If you are gonna talk about the leak , at least know the facts.

(Gabe never said the Traptown wasn't scripted either , he talked about the allies' AI in the Barricade movie)

You are wrong and you yourself seem to not know the facts. The buggy shown in the e3 2003 had the hood on the model. The leak did not AND it was later proven that this is how the buggy would now look from the 2004 e3 videos. It was post-e3 2003. Although it could of been a lot of hacks in the code that they later removed to finish it up. We cannot say if it was scripted or not in the 2003 video.

 

[dassbaba]

vale AI > halo AI

its all about the time and money
and valve put in more

 

[Warbie]

I don't care which has better AI - it's all about how much fun the game is

While HL2 should be super immersive and have excellent physics I very much doubt the fighting will be as challenging/fun as in Halo 2 (this is no big deal tho - as fighting isn't really what HL2 is about. Look at HL - crappy fighting, but noone cares/notices )

 

[evil^milk]

HL2 better have awesome fighting...

 

[FictiousWill]

What's interesting about Halo AI is that each npc in Halo has their own individual memory and awareness of events going on around them. This individual AI for each character allows for some interesting gameplay, primarily shown off by 'tricking' the AI enemies. Halo enemies will follow sounds and movement, so it's entierly possible to distract them with noises, and kill npcs without their friends knowing. Combined with a decent dynamic combat library of moves, the Halo AI manages to appear intelligent by being more stupid. So when I smash an Elite on the back of his neck when he's running to investigate the grenade I through off in one direction, is the Elite being stupid for not noticing me sneak up behind him, or smart for reacting to noises and movement? The key to Halo's AI system is emergent behavior. By limiting what a npc knows by allowing them to only react to what they can currently see and hear, you have enemies that actually search out the player, work in teams (but not too much), and can be 'tricked' and are not omnicient. It's very cleverly done, and it works extremely well, and does not need many (if any) AI nodes placed on the map.

 

[CrazyHarij]

I hope both games have awesome fighting.. And I'm quite positive that they will.

 

[Warbie]

What's interesting about Halo AI is that each npc in Halo has their own individual memory and awareness of events going on around them. This individual AI for each character allows for some interesting gameplay, primarily shown off by 'tricking' the AI enemies. Halo enemies will follow sounds and movement, so it's entierly possible to distract them with noises, and kill npcs without their friends knowing. Combined with a decent dynamic combat library of moves, the Halo AI manages to appear intelligent by being more stupid. So when I smash an Elite on the back of his neck when he's running to investigate the grenade I through off in one direction, is the Elite being stupid for not noticing me sneak up behind him, or smart for reacting to noises and movement? The key to Halo's AI system is emergent behavior. By limiting what a npc knows by allowing them to only react to what they can currently see and hear, you have enemies that actually search out the player, work in teams (but not too much), and can be 'tricked' and are not omnicient. It's very cleverly done, and it works extremely well, and does not need many (if any) AI nodes placed on the map.

That's interesting.

I noticed that while the AI in Halo may not be incredibly complicated, it works. The fights (espceially on harder difficulty settings) are extremely tough, satisfying and rarely repetitive.

Many games come out which boast amazing AI (Far Cry) - but the results are often disappointing. Sometimes super complicated AI just doesn't work, or isn't fun (take Golden Eye - what a game! The AI is simple and everythings pretty much scipted, but it works )

 

[The Mullinator]

This thread would have some meaning if we could actually play both games, until then its all just speculation.