HL2 DVD Case 'Claims'

[donutty_uk]

OK, I finished the game, enjoyed it immensely, but like many thought it was too short (about 15-20 hours gameplay). Then I looked at the back of the DVD case at the 'sales pitch':

Digital actors - Advanced animation technology delivers the most sophisticated in-game characters ever witnessed

Advanced AI - Friends and foes assess threats, master tricky terrain and fashion weapons from what is at hand

Stunning graphics - Simply amazing special effects ingite incredibly realistic environments

Physical gameplay - Objects from rocks to trucks obey the laws of gravity, friction and bouyancy


My thoughs on these 'claims':

1] The 'acting' is good, but still predictable and sometimes 'robotic'. Also annoyingly the characters talk over each other. Nice high-res textures though (esp Alyx's hips!)

2] The AI - Nothing special. Not much to be expected in my opinion in games at this moment in time. But.. what is wrong with the laws of 'if I can see you.. you can see me'? i.e. I am behind a crate with a clear head shot of a combine soldier. Why can't they see me?? Craft weapons from what is at hand? I never once saw that, except in the sewers the guy who uses the pipe as a weapon, but that was a scripted sequence!


3] Yes the graphics rock.. but there are some flaws - namely bloody SPRITES!! I didn't notice it the first time around, but when you go into the square from the trainstation at the start of the game, the grass around the statue / plint is like pre-Duke Nukem sprites - ie they rotate with your view, cutting through the solid stone of the statue!! Awful!! However I think the water is better than Far Cry. Everything also has a 'real world' ambience

4] I love the physics. I have spent hours building up piles of crates / pallets, boxes, barrels etc under the exploding barrels and laughing in glee as debris is showered everywhere. Trucks??? Obey these physics?? NO! The only vehicles you can move are the cars with grenades etc and gravgun. However I like the little touches like cardboard boxes unfolding when you bash them about.

Now please dont flame me like 'Professional programmer guy', these are just my thoughts on the 'slightly twisted PR claims'. I love the game and would have bought it anyway no matter what other people said. I would give it 95%


Do you agree / disagree with what has been said?

 

[willjustwill]

in response to number 2
"Craft weapons from what is at hand? I never once saw that, except in the sewers the guy who uses the pipe as a weapon, but that was a scripted sequence!"
i think it means the way the resistancey-type people pick up combine guns and use them over what they have ( i think )
agree wit the rest

 

[nagual678]

yeah, they went over the top with the commercial BS with number 2. that's an enormous overstatement.

 

[redpoints]

This post should be (and hopefully is) aimed at VUG, not valve or the game itself, since the box art and text is a responsibility of the publisher. But regardless, the point about fashioning weapons from what is at hand refers to using just about any object with mass as a weapon with the manipulator. When you enter ravenholm, you pretty much fashion weapons from what is at hand.

 

[nagual678]

they say that about the AI, and npcs dont handle a manipulator.
and the fact that allies pick up some weapons is not "crafting weapons from what is at hand"

 

[Baal]

In response to # 1, the acting is the best I've EVER seen. Doesn't that say something? It may not be amazing, but name a game where the AI acting is better?

And I believe the AI is also the best I've ever seen, again, name one where it is better.

 

[donutty_uk]

There is a difference between AI and acting to me - I think 'Acting' is the scripted set-pieces (and in that case maybe it does use motion capture etc) whereas the AI aspect is simple things like enemy combat, NPC reactions etc. And I concur that the scripted acting is realistic

You (the player) can use almost any object as a weapon (my favourite, on Ravenholme is the engine block with gravgun) but the text refers to the AI's ability to do that, which it doesn't. Neither does it 'master tricky terrain'. If you class this as zombies climing up drain pipes, then that is just another setpiece. When the AI is that clever, I WILL be impressed (and scared!). I cant name a game where it is better, but I can name plenty where it is the same (Read: no improvement)

And yes, this isn't the fault of Valve - Vivendi are to blame for the exaggerations.

 

[Edcrab]

Heh, everything on the back of the box is actually true; for a given definition of "true". Many things appear in scripted sequences, and "mastering tricky terrain" is just a fancy way of saying they have brains enough to go around massive rocks. They do, at least, assess threats- i.e., gunships prioritising incoming rockets over machine-gun toting infantry.

As for "crafting weapons from what's at hand"... haven't you guys seen zombies chucking refuse, or Striders (inadvertently) crushing Resistance members with toppling vans? That, at least, is a perfectly legit statement; it's just likely to be viewed to mean something more advanced, like allies chucking bricks at the Civil Protection guards, or thwacking them with iron bars.

Sure that's possible to code, of course- but it'd been nice to have included it, though considering how every active resistance fighter carries a gun I'd be hard pressed to justify it in the current incarnation of the game...

 

[NeverstilL]

my only gripe would be the friendly a.i. , not alyx or any major character but the squads that follow you, they are pretty much retarded. they are supposed to take cover but the morons just run out in the open and get shot all the time. and yes i know i can tell them to go stand somewhere but usually they just stand there for a min and then proceed to run back out in the open and get shot. (and did anyone notice it's almost always the medic to be the first one to try and commit suicide?) i just wish they would take cover by themselves when getting shot at. i shouldnt have keep telling them to go stand over there repeatedly. feels more like babysitting then having help. other than that this is the best fps iv'e ever played. and i can't wait for expansion/hl3

 

[MiccyNarc]

I guesss only me and edcrab noticed the fact that zombies will throw stuff at you.
I guess that went over everyone else's head...

 

[nagual678]

I guesss only me and edcrab noticed the fact that zombies will throw stuff at you.
I guess that went over everyone else's head...

everyone seen it. still, saying this is "crafting weapons form what is at hand" is an enormous overstatement

 

[MiccyNarc]

No, that's exactly what it is.
The Zombie wants you dead, and can't reach you at that moment. And so, to hold you down until it can slash you to death, it creates a weapon out of a barrel.
"Crafting a weapon" doesn't necessarily mean taking a torch and carving a knife out of the barrel...

 

[nagual678]

you are right, but i see this as a somewhat scripted thing that happens only with one monster and with certain things. and it's just throwing stuff. not the kind of things you would expect to see after reading that.

yes, technically they DO "craft ..". but it's an overstatement, it sounds MUCH more than what it really is.

 

[donutty_uk]

The zombie thing could be legitimate, but the statement makes it sound more grand. Maybe the barrel is just in the way, so it is knocking it out of it's path. I've only ever seen it when an item is between Mr Zombie and myself. The barrel is propelled in my direction. But if, for example the barrel is to the side of me and zombie, it will not aim the barrel at me.

 

[nagual678]

Maybe the barrel is just in the way, so it is knocking it out of it's path.

actually, it's not much more than that

 

[PvtRyan]

The Antlion Guard uses physics pretty well, it nailed me quite a few times by throwing a heavy object at me. And try spawning it in a city environment, it will knock entire cars at you.

 

[Edcrab]

Even though I know its scripted the two "sniper alley" parts in the game were pretty cool... they blast at breakables in an attempt to rob you of cover and crush you with collapsing debris. When one shot a hanging sign to pieces during a "suppressing fire" AI routine I couldn't help grinning...

And yeah, Antlion Guards whack stuff at you too... yet to try them in an urban enviornment, should try that next time I get round to entity-fiddling. Zombies and Antlion Guards do "throw" the misc. objects at you, even though they only go for those directly in their path- they always aim to hit you.

 

[<?>..::ButcheR::]

The game is realy great , graphics, sound,storyline etc but the ai is not that great when you compair it with farcry that haves a great ai . but when i count everything i think hl2 is the best fps i ever played.

 

[soul]

You people that point to Vivendi for everything crack me up. Can I point you to Valve's own half-life2.com overview page?

Characters - Advanced facial animation system delivers the most sophisticated in-game characters ever seen. With 40 distinct facial "muscles," human characters convey the full array of human emotion, and respond to the player with fluidity and intelligence.

Physics - From pebbles to water to 2-ton trucks respond as expected, as they obey the laws of mass, friction, gravity, and buoyancy.

Graphics - Source’s shader-based renderer, like the one used at Pixar to create movies such as Toy Story® and Monster's, Inc.®, creates the most beautiful and realistic environments ever seen in a video game.

AI - Neither friends nor enemies charge blindly into the fray. They can assess threats, navigate tricky terrain, and fashion weapons from whatever is at hand.

The AI is a joke, especially on Follow Freeman. I had no problem running and finding cover by a building, but my squad? They would run into the middle of the street, stand there, look in the direction of the sniper, and get shot. If they actually made it to where I was, crouched behind a car, they would fail to crouch, so the sniper would get a free head shot.

Same thing on (I think) Anticitizen One. I'd tell my squad to stay back, so that I could take out the floor turrets. I'd break the beam to raise the turrets, and here comes my squad right after me, standing there getting cut down by said turrets.

Navigate tricky terrain? The level with the striders destroying the building you were holed up in? Remember how you had to get outside of that building by crawling around on what was left of the ceiling beams? My squad wasn't able to follow me up there.

Maybe Steam just sent me the wrong version of Half-Life 2, since I didn't see that good AI in mine.

 

[Venmoch]

As far as the digital actors were concerned I was overly impressed. In fact so impressed that the game suddenly began to feel much more involving. (I got into this game far more than any game I've played) If you want to see the digital actors, reload Dark Energy and look at the reactions of everyone talking.

But this time, don't just look at where you did last time look all the way around and use the zoom. (Mossman is worth keeping an eye on) People react superbly (EG Seeing Alyx's face falling when she realises its you shes next too, or Dr Breen's slightly sarcastic smiling)

And while the friendly AI may be a little suspect may be a little suspect in places its still better than a lot of other Friendly AI I've seen.

But the enemy AI? Now thats good, the combine search out cover, wait in ambush, work together, cover each other and they report everything they're doing over the radio. (Ripcord, Ripcord ) They will give supressing fire and report it ("Firing To Expose Target - Metrocop firingtoexposetarget.wav) something I commend. I fact what I'd love to do when the full SDK comes out is make a large multi-story building defended by combine fighting off waves of Zombies (Or other beings.) Just to see how good the AI really is.

Also I'm not mentioning the Overwatch constantly giving orders/information to groundteams.

 

[Edcrab]

Half-Life 2's AI reminded me of that in MoAA- great at times, but plenty of "WTF" moments thrown in between them. It's very node dependant- on one play through my idiot squaddies ran across a street and got splattered, but on another I was just close enough to some cover for them to use it properly.

Hope that signature is a joke, mind...

 

[ailevation]

AI is not the best, but it exceeds plentiful of other games AI and matches up with quite a few. Half Life 2 pretty much gives you a more cinematic feel than any other FPS title, yes and it's expanding boundaries with the physics. Why do you people have to hand-pick every single god damn flaw? While you're picking exaggerations from a box, go do that to the other titles of video games. WE ALL KNOW HALF LIFE 2 WASN'T MEANT TO BE THE ALL TIME PERFECT FPS.

 

[Ennui]

In response to # 1, the acting is the best I've EVER seen. Doesn't that say something? It may not be amazing, but name a game where the AI acting is better?

And I believe the AI is also the best I've ever seen, again, name one where it is better.

I agree, especially the voice acting was EXCELLENT.

the reason you all find it disappointing, i think, is because it's so much better than other games and so much like a movie or real life that you compare it to that and not other games.

 

[Venmoch]

Also the facial animation also applys to the people your fighting with.

I remember being holed up in a building (One opposite the garage you drop the car off into) and the medic seemed absolutely petrified as we saw combine Dropships fly past the window.

It was weird.

 

[Asus]

What they claim is what you get. It's true. It's just hyped but that's PR for ya. When I read the box I knew what they ment of course.

If you want to see hyped, read the D3 box.

The AI in HL2 is much more weighted at things not dealing with fighting than in most other games. More like actions and behaviors. Of course it shows depending on how you play the game too, for the fighting aspects and the characters.

 

[bbyybb]

I found the game was long enough, it made you want more and more. It took me alot longer to finish HL2 compared to my first person shooter affairs.


Cheers,
bbyybb.

 

[Gatsu]

I think the al in hl1 was way better then the al in hl2.
Far Too many times did the combine soilders just run in straight lines making it soo damn easy too kill them.

And if i came to a doorway i could just stand back and they would come in 1 by 1 and i could just take them out 1 at a time.

Sure sometimes they would toss a nade and in after it went off they would come in but sometimes i would toss the name back out the door and they would still come in.
Now shouldn't the al have thought to itself... hmm he tossed the nade back out the door soo maybe it aint that smart of a idea to go thru the door after 5 of my team mates have died?

 

[donutty_uk]

Why do you people have to hand-pick every single god damn flaw?

It certainly isn't every one. Like I said I highly rate the game but what was described to me on the box isn't what I feel I got.

People say HL2 AI is the best. It is average, on par with a lot of other games. I never seriously expected my squads to survive. Some of them getting killed was scripted I believe, but some was down to plain 'stupidity' on the AI's part.

People have to pick out flaws to make the next game better. It's called Constructive Criticism.

 

[Sharpfish]

"Actors" belong in films. "You" belong in games. Play it, don't watch it. If you want to fill the fake world with a lot of characters, so much that the action turns into a puesdo story driven dilution - you should do it 100%. I.E make sure the Damn A.I act properly, otherwise, keep them the hell out of the way.

Honestly, I think "Digital Actors" is overstating things quite a bit. They seem no more intelligent than many other games A.I... but they do have shiny eyes which follow you, which is good.. on a total of around 5 different faces.. which is not

They gave it a fair shot, thumbs up, but It's not the be all and end all of NPCs.

 

[HunterSeeker]

The AI act really smart in some situations, sometimes not.

I have seen both combine and rebels being unable to take cover if their life depended on it (and indeed it did), I have also seen them outsmart me. Overall I think the AI acts rather realistic most of the time (YOU the player rarely do act realistic though).

 

[donutty_uk]

The AI really is hit-and-miss. Sometimes they wasted me, sometimes the other way round. But they can't make them too smart, otherwise you would get killed indefinately and there would be no game!

 

[Sharpfish]

The AI really is hit-and-miss. Sometimes they wasted me, sometimes the other way round. But they can't make them too smart, otherwise you would get killed indefinately and there would be no game!

Smart A.I doesn't particularly mean Killing machines. Smart/Good A.I would make them act realistically, be open to the flaws and inconsistencies of human beings etc. Smart A.I would make them seem good when they were supposed to be good, and vunerable when it enhances the gameplay. Very tricky to balance but that is, to me, what Good A.I is about.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Smart A.I doesn't particularly mean Killing machines. Smart/Good A.I would make them act realistically, be open to the flaws and inconsistencies of human beings etc. Smart A.I would make them seem good when they were supposed to be good, and vunerable when it enhances the gameplay. Very tricky to balance but that is, to me, what Good A.I is about.

According to those rules, the AI does exactly what it says on the tin. Sometimes its clever, sometimes it isn't. Just like a real being.

 

[nagual678]

According to those rules, the AI does exactly what it says on the tin. Sometimes its clever, sometimes it isn't. Just like a real being.

not applicable here : it should be sometimes clever and sometimes stupid in the same context. being clever on the coast level (i find the combine the most tricky to outsmart there) but stupid on another (on some parts they're always really stupid, i'll dig up the level names if you ask) shows flaws, not realistic variations

 

[Spartan]

My thoughs on these 'claims':

1] The 'acting' is good, but still predictable and sometimes 'robotic'. Also annoyingly the characters talk over each other. Nice high-res textures though (esp Alyx's hips!)

We still have a long way to go until we're on par with I, Robot (the facial animations were incredibly subtle), but HL2's facial animation system is clearly a step forward, and pretty good looking too.

2] The AI - Nothing special. Not much to be expected in my opinion in games at this moment in time. But.. what is wrong with the laws of 'if I can see you.. you can see me'? i.e. I am behind a crate with a clear head shot of a combine soldier. Why can't they see me?? Craft weapons from what is at hand? I never once saw that, except in the sewers the guy who uses the pipe as a weapon, but that was a scripted sequence!

I don't understand that weapon thing either. A zombie throwing a barrel is not exactly "crafting a weapon."

4] I love the physics. I have spent hours building up piles of crates / pallets, boxes, barrels etc under the exploding barrels and laughing in glee as debris is showered everywhere. Trucks??? Obey these physics?? NO! The only vehicles you can move are the cars with grenades etc and gravgun. However I like the little touches like cardboard boxes unfolding when you bash them about.

The physics are nice enough, but terribly inconsistent. They only work when the designers want them to work.

 

[The Dark Elf]

not applicable here : it should be sometimes clever and sometimes stupid in the same context. being clever on the coast level (i find the combine the most tricky to outsmart there) but stupid on another (on some parts they're always really stupid, i'll dig up the level names if you ask) shows flaws, not realistic variations

I still think the AI is pretty smart, better than the majority of games. It wont be perfect, no game will be for a long time in the AI department, but for now it does a good job. If I play it differently, trying different things, the AI notices it, ok so some scenes are set out to happen the same each time, but thats just for atmospherics, and as Pi said in another thread, its important things happen at a specific time to keep things going smoothly.

So yeah, the AI is good all things considered.

Though the squad is annoying how they auto follow too quickly, though thats changable in the console so they stay put instead of running after you after five seconds.

 

[nagual678]

DarkElf : agreed, even if you're off topic :angel:
what's the console command BTW ? i've been wanting them to hold their position since i first ever had a squad :|

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Um, the back of the box is marketing... The function of marketing is to stretch a definition as far as possible so that people will buy your product but without taking it to the point where the Tradings Standards guys can get you.

It's not a new concept...

 

[The Dark Elf]

DarkElf : agreed, even if you're off topic :angel:
what's the console command BTW ? i've been wanting them to hold their position since i first ever had a squad :|

Don't remember it off hand (and HL2 takes so long to load I cba booting it up just to find out hehe) type in the console

find squad

and it'll give you a load of commands you can use on them, the autofollow one is the one your after, I think the default is 5 seconds. But if you set it to too long, chances are you could get out of reach of them and lose them, though if you plan to keep tabs on them throughout its better having complete control over them that way.

 

[Warlock]

Heh, as people have said, welcome to the world of PR. Of course things are going to be overstated to some degree. It's unfortunately how things work.

The physics are nice enough, but terribly inconsistent. They only work when the designers want them to work.

That's pretty much a given, actually. Give the player too much freedom with physics and things can be much more difficult to control. What's to stop them from escaping from maps, destroying things critical to moving on in the level, ect ect.