HL2 - Missed the Bar...

[Mr.Wotsit]

It's not delusion at all.

Wake up and smell the time that has gone into everything that is in the game, the things you seem to have taken entirely for granted.
The storyline is weak in itself, but the way it is delivered is a much more mature style than has been seen before and that can only be a good thing for this industry. Players (including myself) just aren't used to being treated so maturely, just as you might be treated when watching a film. For example, if you walk down the tunnel toward Ravenholm, Alyx tells you more about it. If you stand by that noteboard, Eli will tell you more about it. If you go and see where Dr.Mossman has gone, you will find out more.
Admittedly, the main thread could have been made clearer for those who couldn't be bothered and I would have liked something a bit more immediate to cling to before having to go into depth.
Lowering the bar isn't really possibly though... And another point I'm interested in from the many people who speak of this "bar":

Which game is currently the bar to beat? It's all a matter of opinion and therefore, the act of raising a bar shouldn't be taken on a basis of personal opinion but in what the game has done for the industry.
And, as a whole, Half Life 2 has set a new standard for these kinds of games by daring to pioneer many techniques and technologies with this project.

And where Valve go today, others will follow. And we all win.

 

[SFLUFAN]

The original Half-Life had a fairly pedestrian, typical sci-fi storyline that was brilliantly executed - nothing more, nothing less. I think people make a little too much of a big deal of it.

Half-Life 2, on the other hand, presented a complex, thought-provoking story that I find far more satisfying.

I know you won't agree but that's the way I see it.

 

[Chiefi]

I don't understand why people say the story in Hl2 was weak. Did they play Half-life? I'm not saying Half-life had a weak story, but it wasn't something deep and very original. On the other hand, Hl2 has a much deeper story and also it isn't told in the same way. Little details in Hl2 give so much of the story. If you think Hl2 had a weak story, read this: http://members.shaw.ca/storage_4/hl2story/

It's a really good read, very well written and informative.

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Half Life and Half Life 2 have been released in entirely different contexts. Half Life 2 doesn't actually have the opportunity to make the kind of impact that the first game did.
The first game came along when this genre was largely in a transitional situation moving beyond simple running and shooting mechanics and transcending to the levels of quality we know today. Sure, there were examples like the System Shock games (Which I loved by the way) that were very well done but they didn't get the attention that Half Life did and therefore will not be remembered with such reverance.
Half Life 2 enters a market with consumers that have been anticipating it for years. The size of the audience exaccerbates the fact that it cannot be entirely to everyone's tastes.
However, the clear quantities of time that have been put into dotting every i and crossing every t must be acknowledged. And not in a fascist kinda way, in the kind of way where I want to bring these things to your attention. This game has been shined until you can see your face in it. There were times when I got stuck but I realised it was my own fault because Valve had tested it, found that people were getting suck and put huge flashing lights making it obvious where to go. There is always something happening. Where most games would have a blank piece of ground to traverse, Valve insert a building trying to step on you.
This game can't possibly do what Half Life did all those years ago when this genre was in relative infancy and you may dislike the content that has been shipped in terms of storyline. However, the execution is done in a way that takes what we know from this genre to a new level.

Whether you believe it has been done well or done badly, the fact that it has been done (and by such an influential product) advances expectations of games from this moment on and starts a thread that can be continued to even better implementation of this philosophy.

 

[Spartan]

It's not delusion at all.

Wake up and smell the time that has gone into everything that is in the game, the things you seem to have taken entirely for granted.

The amount of time taken doesn't mean that the outcome is pure genius. What if they had worked six years on Daikatana? Would it have been a highly regarded game? Obviously not.

The storyline is weak in itself, but the way it is delivered is a much more mature style than has been seen before and that can only be a good thing for this industry.

You are forgetting about Max Payne, especially the second game. There have been loads of other mature games as well, such as Fallout or Planescape: Torment.

Players (including myself) just aren't used to being treated so maturely, just as you might be treated when watching a film.

Speak for yourself.

And where Valve go today, others will follow. And we all win.

Doesn't seem that way to me, when I look at Stalker. It has many features new (or at least rare) to FPS games, and even games in general.

 

[Spartan]

I don't understand why people say the story in Hl2 was weak. Did they play Half-life? I'm not saying Half-life had a weak story, but it wasn't something deep and very original. On the other hand, Hl2 has a much deeper story and also it isn't told in the same way. Little details in Hl2 give so much of the story. If you think Hl2 had a weak story, read this: http://members.shaw.ca/storage_4/hl2story/

It's a really good read, very well written and informative.

You chose your example really poorly. A very large portion of that timeline is pure speculation and fabrication. And why is it that way? Because we don't know anything, we have to fill the (huge) gaps with our own imagination, which is normally fine but severely overdone in this case.

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

There are lots of games being produced, I'm not claiming that Valve singlehandedly pioneer everything that comes to the genre, I am saying they have done what they have done very well.
The developers of the Max Payne games also did a brilliant job and I would support and offer them the respect they also deserve.

My focus was not on the length of time that had been taken but that that time had been used well and it showed. That's not an opinion, it's recognition of the clearly high production values and enormous amount of effort that it's easy to pass by rather than stop and analyse.
I have an overly analytical brain; when I hear a joke, I can't help but wonder what inspired the author to such genius.
Equally, in playing this game, I can't help but step back every now and then, think about what has just happened and respect how cleverly I have been manipulated for this growing format.

And I think that's a good thing really.


P.S. By the way, I know I'm replying a lot but I'm on a gap year at the moment and it's not often I get the chance to practice some writing. I love discussing things and really, when it all comes down to it, it's a game that I think will change what comes after it and you might not think it will be so influential. However, the fact of how widespread it has been seems to ensure it's influence in the future regardless of the analysis that is likely to follow between us...

 

[Maynard-]

Comparing FPS's to RPG's in terms of storyline depth isn't anywhere near fair.

 

[Spartan]

Comparing FPS's to RPG's in terms of storyline depth isn't anywhere near fair.

When you're talking about the entire industry, and storylines in general, as we just did, it's completely fair to make comparisons with RPGs.

And what's preventing anyone from making an FPS with a strong story? Isn't HL2 supposed to be revolutionary? Why didn't Valve make a better story?

 

[SFLUFAN]

Mr. Wotsit: you're fighting a noble and valiant but ultimately fruitless battle against the likes of Spartan and Odysseus.

My advice is to walk away - safe in the knowledge that the vast majority of us share your opinion of this wonderful product that Valve has given to us and that they are clearly in the minority.

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Actually, I think it would be a mistake to start comparing Half Life to RPGs.

It's not really intended to raise the bar for RPGs so that's a whole different discussion - RPGs main selling point is their storyline. It would almost be like comparing a book to series of naked photos.

P.S. SFLU Fan, thanks for the support but I love having this kind of discussion, it's one of my favourite things to do as long as people keep conducting it with a reasonably intelligent attitude.
However, when it starts to deteriorate into idiocy, the fun beings to diminish so that's when I'll probably start heading for the door.
PLENTY OF TIME LEFT BEFORE THAT THOUGH!!!

 

[SFLUFAN]

When you're talking about the entire industry, and storylines in general, as we just did, it's completely fair to make comparisons with RPGs.

And what's preventing anyone from making an FPS with a strong story? Isn't HL2 supposed to be revolutionary? Why didn't Valve make a better story?

They did make a damned fine story - just not in the way you approve of.

Hell, I'd dare say the story was presented in the EXACT same way as the original game but I don't hear anyone complaining about that though the original game's story is far weaker than the sequel and not nearly as interesting and thought provoking.

In any event, I'm done with you and I wash my hands of it all.

 

[Spartan]

Actually, I think it would be a mistake to start comparing Half Life to RPGs.

It's not really intended to raise the bar for RPGs so that's a whole different discussion - RPGs main selling point is their storyline. It would almost be like comparing a book to series of naked photos.

I wasn't talking about raising the bar for RPGs, I was talking about the story. Stories aren't the exclusive property of RPGs.

 

[Odysseus]

And where Valve go today, others will follow. And we all win.

The second part you got it all wrong. The day developers follow Valve's path and adopt Steam or Steam-like programs we all lose. It is true that they need to protect their products from piracy, but why at the expense of those who paid for them?

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Yes but it seems pointless to compare Half Life's story to the stories in RPGs. It doesn't achieve anything and it's like comparing it's vehicles with those of Command and Conquer; both games have vehicles in them but they are much more important to one genre than the other.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Using Steam has been a fantastic experience for me so far as well as for many others. Even if I had had problems with it, I could still acknowledge that it is an effective and important step if this industry is going to remain competitive in terms of costs.

And the large majority of the implication of that sentence was referring to how they produced the game rather than their supply practices (which, incidentally, I also think are good in the long run)

 

[Spartan]

Yes but it seems pointless to compare Half Life's story to the stories in RPGs. It doesn't achieve anything and it's like comparing it's vehicles with those of Command and Conquer; both games have vehicles in them but they are much more important to one genre than the other.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

A story isn't necessary the most important component of an RPG. Some RPGs are as simple as "evil wizard is pwning the world. Go kill evil wizard." There's no reason why we couldn't expect excellent stories from FPS games, especially since there have already been FPS (and third person shooters) with excellent and well executed storylines.

 

[CriYam]

Mr. Wotsit: you're fighting a noble and valiant but ultimately fruitless battle against the likes of Spartan and Odysseus.

My advice is to walk away - safe in the knowledge that the vast majority of us share your opinion of this wonderful product that Valve has given to us and that they are clearly in the minority.

ouch, is that borg talk or hitler-ese?

Critique my opinion next!

Here goes, Half life graphics and physics (the whole engine)are awesome, the enemy variety along with the ending are lacking.

To the gas chamber with me?

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

CriYam, I'd say you're making some pretty normal and fair points. The ending is very anticlimatic and there isn't a huge variety of enemies.

Although you didn't necessarily acknowledge all the things I am sure you enjoyed alongside the engine, I think the chambers can remain off for now...

And Spartan, I meant that the story is not traditionally as large an element of FPS games as it is of RPG games. Whatever story is provided is going to be disliked by some and the way they present it may also not be enjoyed by all. However, the techniques they have used are unusual and improvements in this genre. That whole last scene where you are held in place in the metal case is an excellent way of showing off everyone's faces to the player while still making sense in the rules of the world they have created.
A nice move and one that I think shows how well Valve have executed many pieces in the game. This is only one example, in one area.

So anyway, I'm going to go to bed now because my playlist just finished in iTunes. No hard feelings anyone, we all have opinions and all that but on the whole, Valve have set a new standard in multiple areas that will influence games in the future, and not just because of what they have done but the manner in which they have introduced more new tricks to the PC games rulebook.

The future's bright

 

[Maynard-]

Ehhhhh I don't feel like feeding the trolls anymore, all I know is that HL2 was thoroughly enjoyable and i'm going to enjoy the next 2-3 utopian-like years of multiplayer mods for it. If you didn't enjoy it, that's fine with me.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

If you didn't like half-life 2, why don't you just leave the half-life 2 forums and get on with your life?

I mean, the game is well-liked by almost everyone, it got consistent 95+ review scores, and beat a few sales records.

So, what is the point in consistently complaining here?
It won't make the game better. Valve aren't going to make major changes to a game that is already generally considered the best ever. Minor patches, maybe.

It's not going to change the sequel.
Making a short list of your criticisms and mailing it to Valve would be productive.
Instead, you're only attempting to convince other people to enjoy the game less. Valve isn't going to read this thread, and they're the only people who would actually require this criticism in the first place.

So, Spartan and Odeysseus, before you respond with another message telling us how the game shouldn't make sense and how all the fun we had shouldn't have existed, ask yourselves: "why do i bother?"

 

[CriYam]

CriYam, I'd say you're making some pretty normal and fair points. The ending is very anticlimatic and there isn't a huge variety of enemies.

Although you didn't necessarily acknowledge all the things I am sure you enjoyed alongside the engine, I think the chambers can remain off for now...

I love everything the engine allows, the facial muscles are incredible. I do agree HL2 raised the bar, but I as well as many others are attacked if we find anything lacking. These are the people I call fanboys (valve can do nothing wrong and I'll slit your throat for saying they have!)

I've spent hours playing around with console commands and setting up huge battles, like the huge battle I wished for at the end. I can't wait to see what the modding community will do with this.

 

[Sequence]

1) HL2 is the continuation of the storey started in HL1, not an alternative - they cannot be compared against each other.

2) HL2's plot isn't in your face, it requires you to do some investagation and appply some thought to link the different clues together. Declaring the storey as weak or rubbish says more about your mental dexterity than valves creativity.

 

[Chiefi]

You chose your example really poorly.

No I did not. :thumbs:

A very large portion of that timeline is pure speculation and fabrication.

If you've played Half-life and Hl2, you'd know that most of the guide is based on facts. The speculation is mostly about the after effects in the story of Hl2, which of course no one knows, so therefore... it is speculation. (Ok that took the french guy about 5 minutes to write the last sentence, and I'm not even sure if it makes sense. So give the guy a break.) :cheese:

And why is it that way? Because we don't know anything, we have to fill the (huge) gaps with our own imagination, which is normally fine but severely overdone in this case.

My bet is that you played Hl2 expecting characters to give you the whole deal about the story, right? This isn't how the story is delivered in Hl2. Like I said before, little details give so much of the story.

 

[GRIMEY]

Have I missed something...? Do you guys have some insider knowledge that I don't have access to...? But IMHO HL2 fails to even meet the bar let alone raise it! I purchased HL2 via Steam and eagerly awaited, like the rest of you, the release - which came and went like a damp firework.

I loaded it up and was expecting something special - no such luck! Nothing is this game is extraordinardy - kill some grunts, kill some headcrabs, solve really easy puzzles. And the ending is so ridiculous, it beggers belief...! The GMan sends you to sleep - AGAIN! Please Valve don't insult your audience. We deserve better.

Then today I forked out £20 for the book "Raising the Bar" - looks nice, contains some background material - but yet again it poses more questions than answers!

The game seems 'rushed' - not complete - and someone please tell me how RavensHolm fits into the game - what does it add to the story - it has no connection whatsoever to the HL or the Combine theme!

Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the game for what it was - but not for what it should have been. I think Valve missed the bar - no doubt you fan boys will think different!

Bullz

Agreed.

 

[Spartan]

If you've played Half-life and Hl2, you'd know that most of the guide is based on facts. The speculation is mostly about the after effects in the story of Hl2, which of course no one knows, so therefore... it is speculation. (Ok that took the french guy about 5 minutes to write the last sentence, and I'm not even sure if it makes sense. So give the guy a break.) :cheese:

Too much of it is speculation.

My bet is that you played Hl2 expecting characters to give you the whole deal about the story, right? This isn't how the story is delivered in Hl2. Like I said before, little details give so much of the story.

I expected the story to have common sense. Instead, Gordon is sleepwalking through everything without giving a shit about what's going on, not that anyone has the time or interest to explain anything to him.

 

[Spartan]

Declaring the storey as weak or rubbish says more about your mental dexterity than valves creativity.

When is the Fanboy Association going to replace that aged argument with something else? Like an explanation?

 

[SFLUFAN]

When is the Fanboy Association going to replace that aged argument with something else? Like an explanation?

When your side stops being so condescending perhaps.

 

[PvtRyan]

When is the Fanboy Association going to replace that aged argument with something else? Like an explanation?

Explanations enough, it's just the fact that you seem to be too dense for them, or are just unwilling to accept them for whatever fanboy reason you may have (yes, you're a fanboy in my book, a fanboy is someone who's is mindlessly defending his "own" camp, you're one of 'em).

Don't like the story? Don't like the way its told? Fine, couldn't care less. But shut the hell up with your senseless ramblings about a "bad story".

 

[GRIMEY]

When is the Fanboy Association going to replace that aged argument with something else? Like an explanation?

Good point.

 

[Edcrab]

The only explanation is that Valve obviously intended HL2's story to be incredibly dense and convoluted, with more mystery than actual explanation. I rather liked it- somehow, the tiny titbits of easily-missable info were as rewarding as a detailed FMV epic to accompany it.

At least it's not as horribly pretentious and semi-comprehendible as the sort of pseudo-religious tripe swirling around the Matrix's universe...

*waits for an inevitable Breen=Architect comment like last time*

 

[Spartan]

Explanations enough, it's just the fact that you seem to be too dense for them, or are just unwilling to accept them for whatever fanboy reason you may have (yes, you're a fanboy in my book, a fanboy is someone who's is mindlessly defending his "own" camp, you're one of 'em).

Yeah, yeah, yeah... do you have anything besides Standard Issue Fanboy Explanations to tell me?

 

[Sequence]

Spartan, you've made 470 more posts than me, and you're calling me a fanboy?
Do you understand the irony of your comment, or do you need that explained to you as well?

 

[Inertiadriftsc]

hmmm a wonderful thread filled with ad hominem fallacies and ridiculous behavior on both sides. HL2 raised the bars in many ways but failed in others, they also did not reach to the expected level and hype. We all must remember that our imagination will expand things to much bigger than they are (as proved by alfred hitchcock horror films which were scarier than the films of the day becuase he never showed the monster and played on peoples imagination) or will be, Everyone expected half life 2 to be a killer story, when it is instead a connecting peice between 1 and 3. It was revolutionary as far as a workable physics engine, and the source engine. however, gameplay was just good not great, and the story the same. I think they made a successful game that is extremely enjoyable, but i doubt anyone can live of to 6 years of expanded imagination.

 

[SFLUFAN]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... do you have anything besides Standard Issue Fanboy Explanations to tell me?

Further condescension! :cheers:

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Well to me it seemed leagues above Far Cry, Doom3 , Painkiller, Call of Duty, Pacific Assault and all the other FPS game i've played over the last six years like MOHAA, MOHSH, MHBT, SOF1, SOF2, JK2, JKO. I found all those games did something well but took shortcuts in other areas.

Far Cry - woeful story, woefully scripted sequences that do absolutely nothing to raise tension, increase immersion, absolutely shocking facial animations and player animations.
Doom 3 - Horribly repetitive. Repetiveness was magnified inifnitely by the close quarters.
Painkiller - I absolutely loved the architecture of the maps i though they were great. The gameplay is fast and furious but not the sort of thing i'd ever play more than once.

There is no massive flaw that sticks out in my mind with Half-Life2. I'd have loved more explanation about the ending as much as the next guy and if that's my only complaint i think that's awesome. The gameplay itself is awesome fun, it has the same flow, feel and movement of Half-Life 2 which i absolutely love.

 

[Chiefi]

Too much of it is speculation.

No. ZZzzzzZZzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzz (I could write another paragraph, but I already did in my previous post.)

I expected the story to have common sense.

The story does make sense. What did you not understand about the story? Of course there are still unanswered questions, but overall the story makes total sense.

Instead, Gordon is sleepwalking through everything without giving a shit about what's going on, not that anyone has the time or interest to explain anything to him.

You said it yourself, you expected other characters to tell you the story. That's not how it's done in Hl2. The characters give you hints and that's it.

 

[PvtRyan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... do you have anything besides Standard Issue Fanboy Explanations to tell me?

Thank you for proving my point... again... over and over... again.

Someone brings you an argument you say 'omg rofl bullshit fcking fanboy' and dismiss it as nonsense. I've seen you do it in a 1000x threads, and all you do there is troll, I haven't seen a single well argumented post why the story sucks. You're the worst example of a fanboy, and then summoning the incredible irony of calling us fanboys.

Well, continue your behaviour if this is the thing that gets you off. You're on my ignore list now, not that you would care or anything. But hey.

 

[CrimsonKing]

My 2 cents:

If you idiots couldn't see the story, because you had to think about it then well, die. HL2 is revolutionary because on top of everything it had quite possibly the best way to present a story in an FPS, it made you think, it made you guess, it made you(hopefully)feel. The ending turned everyone on its ear. HL2 deserves a 10, for its story alone. Everything else is icing on the cake.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, the game is well-liked by almost everyone, it got consistent 95+ review scores, and beat a few sales records.

That's the main principle of advertising: if you tell people something long enough soon they will start to believe it... I have a critical mind and I am not accustomed to swallowing everything people tell me I should like. It would be stupid to try to convince myself this is the best game ever just because most people gave it A's.