hl2 story allegory.

[capital]

--------------------------------nvm

 

[caste]

is that all ? C'mon tell us more what do you think about it. What exactly from HL2 story represent collectivism and individualism.

 

[ríomhaire]

Are you sure you're not talking about Bioshock? The main theme of Half-Life is clearly freedom.

 

[capital]

i think your right with the freedom thing but its relation to a collective. Th two collectives Combine and resistance, does it not seem at times certain members of the resistance are working with g-man. cubbage shaking hands with him, barney keliner seem to be expecting Gordon after he is released from stasis. seems to be a theme of using of Gordon freeman through g-man. maybe hes just a symbol of goverment or something blah blah- something about mutual friendship maybe?
But Bioshock is a complete failure honestly. This game/story is deep and complex
im not too sure about what it all means or where its going but gman will nver be explained as a actual character :monkee:

 

[Shem]

But Bioshock is a complete failure honestly.

No. You're wrong.

 

[capital]

No. You're wrong.

as a game its brillinat but the metaphor completly fails, its an argument from Apocalypse the situation is ridiculous and cant be used to criticize capitalism/egoism. ken Levine is just like all those other pretentious baby boomer leftists.

 

[Barnz]

No. You're wrong.

No, you're wrong.

 

[Shem]

No, you're wrong.

You're very predictable, Barnz. I could smell your odor from a mile away. Your abhorrence of Bioshock is well-known around these parts, but to say the game is a complete failure would be considered an asinine remark by almost all those who have played it. Also, if you had seen capital's post after mine, he was referring not to Bioshock's quality, but to the metaphor he was trying to get across. Quit trying to spread your pessimistic views.

Anyways, I agree with riomhaire. Half-Life 2 is mainly about independence from a foreign entity. Sound familiar? Yeah, it shows a resemblance to the Revolutionary War in which America fought for its independence from Great Britain. Gordon Freeman could be seen as a George Washington, Kleiner as a Franklin, etc. The ideas of individualism and collectivism and all that nonsense are really just background themes. Come on, it's about freedom from an oppressive government, the Combine!

 

[capital]

You're very predictable, Barnz. I could smell your odor from a mile away. Your abhorrence of Bioshock is well-known around these parts, but to say the game is a complete failure would be considered an asinine remark by almost all those who have played it. Also, if you had seen capital's post after mine, he was referring not to Bioshock's quality, but to the metaphor he was trying to get across. Quit trying to spread your pessimistic views.

Anyways, I agree with riomhaire. Half-Life 2 is mainly about independence from a foreign entity. Sound familiar? Yeah, it shows a resemblance to the Revolutionary War in which America fought for its independence from Great Britain. Gordon Freeman could be seen as a George Washington, Kleiner as a Franklin, etc. The ideas of individualism and collectivism and all that nonsense are really just background themes. Come on, it's about freedom from an oppressive government, the Combine!

totally but theres something else going on with gman and some members of the resistance,it relates to the way a group of people like in democrazy use force to oppress/steal from individuals especially strong ones. ( that seems to be whats going on ) i agree with what your saying theres just more going on. ill try to think about this more and put a little more effort into communicating this theory or w/e you'd call it.

 

[Shem]

totally but theres something else going on with gman and some members of the resistance,it relates to the way a group of people like in democrazy use force to oppress/steal from individuals especially strong ones. ( that seems to be whats going on ) i agree with what your saying theres just more going on. ill try to think about this more and put a little more effort into communicating this theory or w/e you'd call it.

That sounds more like a dictatorial government rather than a democratic one. The G-Man seems to be the ruler behind the curtains, waiting for the right moment to usurp the throne when his little pawn, Freeman, has defeated the Combine. With Breen supposedly out of the picture and the Combine in a moment of disarray, I think it's safe to say that the G-Man will soon make the move that he's been waiting for for a long time. Or, perhaps, the G-Man himself is being used by someone even higher in this hidden hierarchy and that a more sinister being will take hold of the reins. Who could it be? Why am I being so melodramatic? We'll find out soon enough...

 

[capital]

That sounds more like a dictatorial government rather than a democratic one. The G-Man seems to be the ruler behind the curtains, waiting for the right moment to usurp the throne when his little pawn, Freeman, has defeated the Combine. With Breen supposedly out of the picture and the Combine in a moment of disarray, I think it's safe to say that the G-Man will soon make the move that he's been waiting for for a long time. Or, perhaps, the G-Man himself is being used by someone even higher in this hidden hierarchy and that a more sinister being will take hold of the reins. Who could it be? Why am I being so melodramatic? We'll find out soon enough...

look at 0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9OtSalMKF4
ok so my point was that there is a parrelel between the combine's conflict with earth, and the other side which is g-man and whoever is hiring him. Because they want to use freeman, the individual. liek thethe way a authoritarian government (pure)democracy being one initiates force (use g-man to use you) on a individual for there own benefit. think about the name Combine its a reference to a egalitarianism that is present in authoritarian governments. You are a hero to the resistance but you do wonder what g man has to do with any of it. the only people who show awareness/unawareness of g-man is vorts and eli and then Alyx, so there obviously purely good guys.

curious g man quotes.
"That's why I must now extract from you some small repayment owed for your own survival."

"have recommended your services to my... employers, and they have authorized me to offer you a job."
You've done so well, in fact, that I've received some interesting offers for your services."

 

[Shem]

look at 0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9OtSalMKF4
ok so my point was that there is a parrelel between the combine's conflict with earth, and the other side which is g-man and whoever is hiring him. Because they want to use freeman, the individual. liek thethe way a authoritarian government (pure)democracy being one initiates force (use g-man to use you) on a individual for there own benefit. think about the name Combine its a reference to a egalitarianism that is present in authoritarian governments. You are a hero to the resistance but you do wonder what g man has to do with any of it. the only people who show awareness/unawareness of g-man is vorts and eli and then Alyx, so there obviously purely good guys.

curious g man quotes.
"That's why I must now extract from you some small repayment owed for your own survival."

"have recommended your services to my... employers, and they have authorized me to offer you a job."
You've done so well, in fact, that I've received some interesting offers for your services."

There seems to be a slight misunderstanding with government types. Authoritarianism is closely linked to a dictatorial society, while democracy is related to egalitarianism. The Combine are authoritarian in nature, but Breen does his best to make them appear as if they care about the people. He uses his way with words and a few complicated metaphors to confuse the citizens into believing that the Combine are trying to enforce egalitarianism.

Breen is pretty much a dictator without power.

 

[capital]

There seems to be a slight misunderstanding with government types. Authoritarianism is closely linked to a dictatorial society, while democracy is related to egalitarianism. The Combine are authoritarian in nature, but Breen does his best to make them appear as if they care about the people. He uses his way with words and a few complicated metaphors to confuse the citizens into believing that the Combine are trying to enforce egalitarianism.

Breen is pretty much a dictator without power.

oh yeah breen is sort of a tool of the combine.
your misunderstanding.
democracy is rule of the majority in vote you could look at as mob rule. what would this mean for a free man in the the minority? egalitarianism in government is always tyrannical and not rights respecting because its by nature takes away rights. combine is taking all these different species and making enslaving and making them into cyborg things.
and on the other had g-man is forcing you you to be the "right man in the wrong place" for some other group of people with power.
it can be simplified as:

there is two bad guys.

it was unnecessary to relate this to democracy.

 

[caste]

I think it isn't necessary to relate individualism and collectivism to Half-Life 2.

 

[Shem]

oh yeah breen is sort of a tool of the combine.
your misunderstanding.
democracy is rule of the majority in vote you could look at as mob rule. what would this mean for a free man in the the minority? egalitarianism in government is always tyrannical and not rights respecting because its by nature takes away rights. combine is taking all these different species and making enslaving and making them into cyborg things.
and on the other had g-man is forcing you you to be the "right man in the wrong place" for some other group of people with power.
it can be simplified as:

there is two bad guys.

it was unnecessary to relate this to democracy.

I think you're missing the fine line between democracy and ochlocracy. The majority determines the vote in a democracy, but the mob determines the vote in an ochlocracy. An ochlocracy could be run by a gang, posse, or some other criminal organization. The two types of government are not necessarily the same, but you seem to believe otherwise.

 

[Acepilotf14]

It's not as if Democracy is always ruled by the majority, or the majority is some stable thing that constantly wants to take away the minority's rights- look in history. People have made enough stands and convinced others to the point where they become the majority, and give themselves the rights they deserve. Honorable causes will win out eventually in the end, in a functioning, free democracy with press rights and freedom of information. It may not look like it all the time, but the government functions very well- perhaps not the economic side at all times, however. It's evil people who want to restrict your freedoms that come up with asinine policies like SOPA or other bullshit.

The Resistance has nothing to do with collectivism, as they only serve one purpose: **** up them Combine. No one man can do it alone, not even Freeman, as characterized in how much aide he gets throughout the game. Freeman is the figurehead- even his name is symbolic. It's very clearly about man's strive for freedom against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy.

If you want to go a step further into crazy theories that are there for entertainment, I have one:

HL1 is about when Freeman goes insane and shoots all his coworkers, every single last one of them, the military is dispatched to deal with him, and he kills every single last one of them before finally being coerced into a holding cell.
HL2 is about escaping from prison.

 

[capital]

I think you're missing the fine line between democracy and ochlocracy. The majority determines the vote in a democracy, but the mob determines the vote in an ochlocracy. An ochlocracy could be run by a gang, posse, or some other criminal organization. The two types of government are not necessarily the same, but you seem to believe otherwise.

well all government is authoritarian, unless natural rights of man are protected equally. Theres no difference between the ochlocracy and democracy, its just semantics imo.
but its sorta irelevant
its more about freedom your right. but still combine is sort collectivist/egalitarian/w.e
when I said collectivism and individualism i meant freeman v. a group wanting to enslave,and make apart of a collective. That's a clear part of the story is it not. maybe i used the wrong words
i have nuanced ideas of these words and maybe there not good for communicating what i'm thinkin'

to me the resistance realy depends on you and takes you for granted, minus alyx, eli and vortigaunts.



vortigaunt quotes

"you have brought us grief and jubilation beyond measure"-about combine?

for once the lesser master lay defeated, but we knew the greater must fall in time" about combine?

"your bright face obscures your darker mask." -this ones weird

"we cannot forget whose cords you cut. forgiveness is not ours to bestoy"

"Something secret steers us both. We shall not name it."

"how often we slipped our yoke, only to find it choking us again" - also strange

"We have endured these chafing bonds for eons, yet a single moment of further servitude seems intolerable! "
"unity of purpose the shattering of common shackles a single road we tread."

"Our life is worthless unless spent on freedom."


this one shows how legitimate my theory of the allegory is
"how many are there in you? whose hopes and dreams do you encompass"
is this a reference to the player(s) or Gordans controllers? but then Theres this one
"Could you but see the eyes inside your own the minds in your mind, you would see how much we share" "we are you and you are us"

the Vorts are truly your mutual friends that's clear.

but i'm suspicous of barney, and kleiner that first scene of the game in the torture room is weird. "gordan freeman.. Great Scott! I expected more warning...so, barney what do you intend?"
After a guy was completely gone after the black mesa incident for 10 years i would be more surprised then that.

 

[capital]

ace pilot, my point is that resistance is not completely trustworthy g-man speaks with cubbage out in the open. that's possibly a significant part of the story.
what i said about democracy is not really to relevant, unless you consider g-man as a symbol of government force being used my a group of employers, that may change often and resistance may have been employers at some point. this authoritarian attitude is similar to the way combine is oppressive. w/e i was hyped up on caffeine when i made this thread.

 

[Shem]

well all government is authoritarian, unless natural rights of man are protected equally. Theres no difference between the ochlocracy and democracy, its just semantics imo.
but its sorta irelevant
its more about freedom your right. but still combine is sort collectivist/egalitarian/w.e
when I said collectivism and individualism i meant freeman v. a group wanting to enslave,and make apart of a collective. That's a clear part of the story is it not. maybe i used the wrong words
i have nuanced ideas of these words and maybe there not good for communicating what i'm thinkin'

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Theories are meant to be criticized, but yours at least had some thought put into it. Anyways, let me help you analyze the quotes you brought up:

vortigaunt quotes

"you have brought us grief and jubilation beyond measure"-about combine?

Grief is the killing of their species in Half-Life. Jubilation is the defeat of the Nihilanth.

for once the lesser master lay defeated, but we knew the greater must fall in time" about combine?

Yeah, suggests the Nihilanth was being controlled by the Combine. Evidence includes the chains you see around the wrists of the beast.

"your bright face obscures your darker mask." -this ones weird

Even though Freeman killed many Vortigaunts in his travels, he freed them from servitude by killing the Nihilanth.

"we cannot forget whose cords you cut. forgiveness is not ours to bestoy"

The Vortigaunts will never forget what Freeman did for them, but they are not yet able to forgive him for what he did to their kind.

"Something secret steers us both. We shall not name it."

Possibly referring to the G-Man, but it sounds more like an idea or movement that's motivating them to move forward. The Vortigaunts and Freeman have a special bond with each other. They are both trying to stop the G-Man and eradicate the Combine presence on Earth.

"how often we slipped our yoke, only to find it choking us again" - also strange

Perhaps they tried several times to free themselves from the Nihilanth but could never truly break away without help. They needed someone to defeat the Nihilanth, and that someone was Freeman.

"We have endured these chafing bonds for eons, yet a single moment of further servitude seems intolerable! "

Seeing as though he seems to be speaking in present tense, it suggests that they still are under service to someone. Probably the Combine. Didn't you see that Vortigaunt sweeping the floors at the beginning of the game? Guy was really depressed.

"unity of purpose the shattering of common shackles a single road we tread."

They hope to free others who have been brainwashed and bamboozled by the Combine's sentiments.

"Our life is worthless unless spent on freedom."

Pretty self-explanatory.

this one shows how legitimate my theory of the allegory is
"how many are there in you? whose hopes and dreams do you encompass"

The Vortigaunt understands how influential Freeman is as a rebel leader. He is helping make the hopes and dreams of ordinary people become a reality.

is this a reference to the player(s) or Gordans controllers? but then Theres this one

"Could you but see the eyes inside your own the minds in your mind, you would see how much we share" "we are you and you are us"

Shows that Freeman and the Vortigaunts are fighting for the same cause. They are also both opposed to the G-Man.

the Vorts are truly your mutual friends that's clear.

but i'm suspicous of barney, and kleiner that first scene of the game in the torture room is weird. "gordan freeman.. Great Scott! I expected more warning...so, barney what do you intend?"
After a guy was completely gone after the black mesa incident for 10 years i would be more surprised then that.

Yeah I dunno.

 

[capital]

thanks for the clarification on those quotes.
I've over thought this obviously. iv'e been drinking 5 hour energy and then posting here.

i misunderstood the meaning of a mutual friend. I thought it meant to have a mutual relationship.

My suspicion of the rebellion is sorta a ridiculous leap. the cubbage thing just clarifies g-mans invlovment

my only sound point is that g-man and combine both are forceful.
Now that i think of it a little bit more carfeully gmans motives are too ambiguous to think of his character as a metaphor also you dont employ government really.

other interesting things in the story i'd like help understandin:

-gman says at one point: make sure alyx goes safley to white forest as a payment for your survival
as if hes keeping you alive.

-g-man having "employers" abides by certain "restrictions"
i guess that's a part of the mystery.

 

[Shem]

thanks for the clarification on those quotes.
I've over thought this obviously. iv'e been drinking 5 hour energy and then posting here.

i misunderstood the meaning of a mutual friend. I thought it meant to have a mutual relationship.

Ah, but don't you remember the title of the chapter in Episode Two? 'Our Mutual Fiend.' Eli doesn't actually consider the G-Man to be his friend, hence his sarcastic tone when he says it to Freeman.

"Unforeseen consequences. The last time I heard those words was back at Black Mesa. You had just stepped into the test chamber when he whispered them in my ear. You know who I'm talking about. Our mutual friend."

other interesting things in the story i'd like help understandin:

-gman says at one point: make sure alyx goes safley to white forest as a payment for your survival
as if hes keeping you alive.

More like the G-Man has saved Freeman's life before. Remember the destruction of the core in Half-Life 2? Had the G-Man not paused time and saved Freeman, Freeman would have been obliterated. Now the G-Man simply wants the favor returned.

-g-man having "employers" abides by certain "restrictions"
i guess that's a part of the mystery.

Well, he wishes that he could do something more than simply watch Freeman go about his travels, but it seems his employers don't want him getting involved at all.