HL2 with no guns? Thats crazy talk!

[Spartan]

Is fighting action the only type of action?

No. Driving is action, solving puzzles is action, flying a plane is action.

I’m making a bold prediction: shooting games will soon be a thing of the past.

Nonsense. FPS games are more popular than ever before.

Let me put that in context. A game like battlefield, flashpoint or VBS1 will always have a place – a military simulation.

Well... Battlefield is hardly a military simulation. It's less realistic than Half-Life 2.

But the ‘good thing’ started by wolfenstein or doom, the era of 3D gaming [which is going to evolve into Virtual reality, although this seems like a very 80’s term nowadays doesn’t it?] has hit a turning point with HL2, IMHO.

You are being overly dramatic. HL2 is not a turning point in any way. It's not very different from Doom. System Shock (and its sequel) had great ideas and pushed the genre forward (much like Deus Ex), even though the genre had just begun. Unfortunately, no one noticed and we're still playing simple Doom-like shooters. HL2 may have superior graphics and really nice facial animations, but that's just surface coating.

Think of every advantage that a ‘Game’ has over a film when it wants to convey a message! Sure there are challenges, like how a ‘player’ can speak [we can’t carry on as mute-freeman’s forever!] and how exactly you marry a linear plot with freedom of movement.

Players speak by choosing a pre-determined sentence, or maybe using a parser (which doesn't work as well). Marrying a linear plot with freedom of movement isn't really an issue. The issues of today are graphics and other content. Making a huge, epic game with a great story and freedom takes an agonizing amount of time and effort to make, because you need great graphics, sound, music, voice acting and shit, especially if its 3D. Therefore, most studios make small, linear games.

as gamers, it is hard sometimes to understand the concept of a game without shooting.

Um, I'm getting the distinct feeling that you have absolutely no understanding of games, because you seem to think that all games are FPS games where you shoot anything that moves. I could probably spend an hour telling you how much more there is to it, but I don't have the motivation.

 

[Warbie]

Wow, what an awesome response from an on-to-it community, thanks guys! [and girls].

Is fighting action the only type of action?

I’m making a bold prediction: shooting games will soon be a thing of the past.

Let me put that in context. A game like battlefield, flashpoint or VBS1 will always have a place – a military simulation. But the ‘good thing’ started by wolfenstein or doom, the era of 3D gaming [which is going to evolve into Virtual reality, although this seems like a very 80’s term nowadays doesn’t it?] has hit a turning point with HL2, IMHO.

Let me explain what I think this turning point is, by drawing parallels to other art forms;

The theatre started out as religious rituals, moved to commedia dell arte, onto the stage and scripts, Shakespeare, and into Broadway type ‘popular theatre’.

Film started out with the Lumiere brothers, onto nicolodians, into silent films, and into Hollywood, then the digital age.

If we compare ‘games’ [although I’m not entirely sure that is the right word anymore] to film we can see doom as the nicolodian of its time; the introduction of a concept to the masses.

The move from silent films to the adoption of newer technology is definitely paralleled in the growth of game technology.

Film has grown from a sidewalk attraction into a respectable art form. So how much longer do computer games need to be the poor brother to the other great art forms?

Think of every advantage that a ‘Game’ has over a film when it wants to convey a message! Sure there are challenges, like how a ‘player’ can speak [we can’t carry on as mute-freeman’s forever!] and how exactly you marry a linear plot with freedom of movement.

But as for people getting bored because they are not shooting; pish-posh! If something is entertaining it is entertaining, guns are not the issue –although we have such a culture of shooting –as gamers, it is hard sometimes to understand the concept of a game without shooting. I’m sure it was once hard to understand the concept of making a film without kicking someone in the butt [A’ la Chaplin]. No wonder we are so attached to our guns! Our very religion is names first person SHOOTER!

So the question is – has the technology outgrown the art form? Is HL2 limited mainly by the fact that it is essentially childish? Does it undersell itself by parading the ridiculous at its fore-front, and what better uses could this new dawn of technology be put to?

I hope I’m not alienating people by calling HL2 childish. That is harsh – HL2 is a great work of imagination and I love kicking butt in City17 as much as the next gun-totting midget.

But isn’t it a bit like getting the incredible knowledge of how to make film, and use it to show two men kicking each other in the butt?

Source offers mod’ers the opportunity to create a world in which the problems faced by the character are more than “here comes another guy with a gun”. More than the plot line “hero saves the day by killing everyone [think about it for a moment – isn’t that a VERY common theme? Why?] And more than principal characters that only spout one-liners – “Let me buy you a drink. It’s nice to finally meet you, Gordon”.

And Warbie – you summed up my whole concept brilliantly [post #33].

Very interesting

I do think you're right too, video games will grow up.

HL2's greatest achievment wasn't so much the experience itself ..... but in showing what video games can be capable of.

Hopefully we'll soon have games that focus on the things that drive us in real life, more than to 'get the highscore'.

I'd love a co-op mountian climbing sim - there's no ways to 'win', or incentives other than the experience. You climb to the top to see the view - and that's it. (it'd be engaging for the same reasosn the beginging of Mario 64 was ....... which is still my fondest gaming memory)

 

[gregornz]

Thanks spartan

If you haven't got the motivation anymore, then you don't need to post any further.

 

[Warbie]

Congrats Spartan - you've just earned the 'arguing the toss and completely missing the point' award :thumbs:

 

[Spartan]

bla bla bla

So because you are too lazy or ignorant to find out about things, I'm supposed to explain them to you? Great. You clearly don't know jack about gaming, so why are you even here?

Congrats Spartan - you've just earned the 'arguing the toss and completely missing the point' award :thumbs:

I'd ask you to elaborate if I really thought that you would.

 

[Warbie]

I'd ask you to elaborate if I really thought that you would.

I remember arguing with an old girlfriend when she spent 120 quid on her hair when we were both short of cash. I said something like 'I can't believe you spent that cash putting red bits in your hair'!!

She replied on how it wasn't red, it was copper brown, and that I never notice her etc The argument went off on a complete tangent, and completely missed the point.

That's what reading your post reminded me of

 

[Spartan]

I remember arguing with an old girlfriend when she spent 120 quid on her hair when we were both short of cash. I said something like 'I can't believe you spent that cash putting red bits in your hair'!!

She replied on how it wasn't red, it was copper brown, and that I never notice her etc The argument went off on a complete tangent, and completely missed the point.

That's what reading your post reminded me of

And how exactly have I gone on a different tangent?

 

[Warbie]

And how exactly have I gone on a different tangent?

By nitpicking on tiny details from his threads that really don't matter.

The ideas he's choosing to discuss are very interesting ones (especially compared to the dross we get on these forums) I'd rather try and develop on them than criticise little points.

 

[Spartan]

When we're discussing gaming, I think comments like "soon, FPS games will be history" and "hmm gee why are all games about killing" are kind of relevant.

 

[gregornz]

Spartan:

Mate, your wecome to your opinions, and I certainly dont want you to just agree with me blindly, but right from the word go you've just nah' sayed everything. The proof of this is right on here in this thread for everyone to read.

I just hope that you havent degenerated what was an interesting discussion into a mud slinging match, which so often seems to happen in forums.

In the interests of damage control I feel I have to ignore you now, but I would like to see you post some reasonable and thought through contributions to the disscussion.

 

[Spartan]

You show up here and start talking about the future of gaming when you don't even have a clue about the past or present of gaming, or gaming in general. And when someone mentions this, you escape to your ivory tower and start putting people on ignore.

gg!

 

[Warbie]

When we're discussing gaming, I think comments like "soon, FPS games will be history" and "hmm gee why are all games about killing" are kind of relevant.

I don't think that stuff was meant to be taken too literally - more a suggestion of what we as gemers will be able to expect in the future.

Either way - let's end this here

//back on topic - slightly

As great as HL2 is - it's still just a 'run and gun' (with a few sweet cinematic extras and zelda style counter-weight puzzles thrown in) It lacks the pure and simple drive that HL introduced so well (and, in the context of this thread, actually took the series step back - imo)

As someone else mentioned - in HL2 Gordon may aswell have put a mask and cape instead of his HEV suit. He's not a scientist anymore (someone we can relate too) he's now got more in common with Master Chief - he's Batman.

*disclaimer* I still love HL2! and think it excels in many ways, pls don't flame me or call me a Halo fanboy (i'm looking at your Mortiz ) This isn't an attempt to bash HL2 either.

 

[crackhead]

i think this idea is brilliant in fact i had been thinking of making a mod a bit similar to this myself i.e no guns like one of thos puzzel solving games like myst but didnt hav any particular storys in mind. umm i used to have a game that used speach recognition to let u tlk to ppl but it got confusing because like you didnt know what to say if u know what i meen this could be an issuie although if it was a game where u need information about something then u would be asking similar questions to people so it could work also i dont see why you think you should wait 10 years before making this i meen sure it would be an awesome game that would could sell in shops in ten years but it would be an awesome mod now. i have just had a what i think as a brilliant idea of how we could do this mod if your interested give me your email adress and ill send you the details. i am a level designer and can do some models but finding a team isnt that hard sometimes lol.

 

[gregornz]

It's 4 in morning in New Zealand now, so I need to sign off. But quickly; HL2 opened my eyes because, for the first time [that I have experienced] I felt like I was in [the place the game is set] rather than looking at a screen. A good combination of the interactivity, the graphics and the level design.

For me was a *snap* moment, for the first time it was more than a game, it was alternate reality. And in that moment I realised the power that this new art form has - its going to be immense.

HL2 was, for me, the most *fun* game that I have ever played and I wouldn't change a thing [read: much]. But I definately think that the genre must grow to live - but that is simple logic really isnt it?

Or hell, maybe I'm just stupid and how dare I post my views?

To be continued!

 

[gregornz]

[email protected]

 

[Asuka]

Sounds like you would like the game Mist played all 4 parts. Its pretty much what you just said.

 

[mikren]

gregornz, I too think that's a great idea... Alot of us old...I mean long time gamers are getting tired of same old shoot to kill type games...which I still love to play.

But I would certainly purchase your idea of a game type.

 

[Warbie]

Sounds like you would like the game Mist played all 4 parts. Its pretty much what you just said.

I dunno - there's very little intereaction in Myst, at least in the way HL2 provides it (which is more convincing, more real)

Myst always felt like a fun and chilled little puzzle game to me - but never as though I was actually there.

 

[Spartan]

gregornz, I too think that's a great idea... Alot of us old...I mean long time gamers are getting tired of same old shoot to kill type games...which I still love to play.

But I would certainly purchase your idea of a game type.

This is what I mean - it's blatantly untrue that all games are about killing things. If you really were a long time gamer, you would know this.

 

[LGs0pHT]

@gregornz:
I do not know whether you read my post, but unfortunately I do not agree with you anymore.

In your comparision between the game and the movie history, you expect games to become movielike. Games are game, and movies are movies. Let me tell you once again, that the cause why every gamer plays a game is INTERACTIVITY. Action -> Reaction.

Action->Reaction means that I do something and expect the game to react. Games like GTA are so popular, because they offer a great amount of interactivity. Driving vehicles, Shooting, and of course all the mini-games. When I played Max Payne (1) I saw those cars in a garage, and I wanted to drive them. What I wanted, was Interactivity. Unfortunately, it was not possible.

The next step in the development of games is in my view Story-Interactivity. Story Interactivity allows the player to meet decisions like an actor of a movie. Of course you cannot write only one script. It would be a new challenge for authors to write multiple interesting paths for their story than just one, linear way.

And if the hero of an action movie uses guns, why shouldn't the player get some?

Your ideas are nice and interesting though, but I suggest you to think about adding them to our current games than just replacing our current game design with your idea about what games should look like.

 

[gregornz]

LGsOpHT

Spoken very well. Thanks for the advice, I can see you know what you are talking about and appreciate you putting me straight in such a friendly manner.

Your first post said that "you could try to find a way that replaces gun/enemy interaction, but I doubt there really is one". I can't agree here.

It seems to me that in 'real-lfe' there are infinitely more variations of interactivity than simple gun/enemy - why, as 'games' become more and more real, can this not be the case in them aswell?

If it is a problem of narrative - I think this is completely workable...

What do you think?

Your second posts stresses interactivity. I agree completely. But, [maybe I just dont get it] isn't there more interactivity potientual in the average living room than an entire game from 2004? Think about all the story that I would find if walked into your living room right now... My point is that interactivity is subjective and must be informed by purpose, or in this case, narrative. For example, a book of poetry has no purpose/interactivity in HL2, but in a [incredibly boring] game about winning a poetry contest it has huge interactivity. Do you agree?

My original point is that Source allows us to now start working on levels of interactivity beyond the simple bang bang level. You may agree here or disagree.

Also, you seem experienced are you/have you working/worked on any projects?

 

[Fishlore]

Myst and all the games that copied that style.
King's Quest and all of the Seirra "Quest" games.
Flight Sims and sims of all sorts including SimCity.
Millions of other games including sports games.

This is hardly a new idea. This is an extremely old idea. I have this idea for a device you can speak into and people on the other side of the world can hear you and talk back.

This goes back to the very basic building blocks of computer games. Some of the first computer games ever were story driven, non-killing, text based games. Notice how the trend has moved from King's Quest to Half Life 2. People want action. Game companies make games they think people will buy. They don't make games about freeing whales because they wouldn't even sell 1000 copies.

 

[gregornz]

Good points fishlore, you may be right.

 

[Warbie]

This is hardly a new idea. This is an extremely old idea. I have this idea for a device you can speak into and people on the other side of the world can hear you and talk back.

I've personally played very few (under a handful) of games like the type he's describing. Certainly not Myst.

(Final Fantasy comes the closest ..... but in a very simple, not interactive way)

 

[Fishlore]

I certainly like the idea, but I think HL2 was more of a credit to the amazing talent of the Valve team and their ability to suck you in. I think if more companies could pull of Valve's level of interaction they would.

 

[aDidor22]

I gotta back up spar on this one.

The original posters idea is ok, thats it. It is anything new and thats fine, he has some interesting ideas and thats it.

Now trying to sum up gaming when HL2 just opened your eyes is like barging in on the rogue guild while your a mage and trying to redefine the dagger for us. Many of us, my self atleast, have been gaming for over 10 to 12 years, heck even more. We've watched games spawn from pixel orgys to the lushes 3d engines we have now. I like a good story, i like good action, i like alot of things.
Though, to say some of the stuff you have said about the genre itself, your outlook on the future of gaming ect, is just a bit of nonfoo considering you havent "payed your dues"

That term represents when one has devoted enough time to somthing to say they know about it and or can teach it ect If you make your mod, awsome ill check it out maybe. But to try and sum as and the legion of gamers up as people who just love to shoot stuff is an insult.Im sure there are plenty of kids whoa re indeed like that, but many of us, who pay people like valves bills, are in it for the expierence, not the story, not the shooting, not the ragdoll physics, the entire expierence aka what the game has to offer, hence why many games do A right but B wrong ect.

Personally, id cry if the many genres turned into digital books. Id , personally dont like to be spoon fed story. Coming from your background (movies/plays ect) its obvious you grew up in the shadow of other people, seriously.

 

[NoMeN]

awesome! i love the idea

 

[Alieni²]

Great idea IMO ^^

 

[Sainku]

I'd be something we could relate too (which, while to a lesser dgree, is one of the reasons HL was such a compelling experience. It wasn't the story, the setting, the weapons or the fighting ...... you were just a guy trying to escape/survive. We all indentify with that)

It doesn't sound like you read my post either Trying to get out of a city because it's being ravaged by an earth quake doesn't sound exciting? Or walking about and seeing the fear on your neighbours faces as war draws closer - seeing planes flying overhead, soldiers and tanks setting up camp in the streets, martial law and curfews take over, then it begins etc etc

You would be doing and seeing amazing things - just ones that we can really associate with (looking after a friend, a place to hide, finding food - all while massive and dangerous events are taking place on your doorstep) not being just another super hero.

Adrien Brody in The Pianist-The Video Game

 

[Warbie]

Adrien Brody in The Pianist-The Video Game

Woohoo \o/

(might get a little boring stuck in that little room though .... then again - it's a video game, we could sneak out and get into all types of mischief. I'd personally steal all the Nazi's socks - that'd teach em!)

 

[The_Preacher]

I would say hes loking for an FPS Version of Broken sword or something.

i feel forced to sort of agree with sparten. This guy Has no clue about games, infact it sounds like his first ever game is HL2.

that makes him a Dreaded Noob lol. (i h8 that to heh).

Basically hes missed out on alot of games that have been their and done that so we can let him off with rehashing stuff in FPS form.

but also these are games. There a Form Of escapism. would you REALY want to sit infront of your computer, playing a Guy sitting in front of his computer?

Or playing a guy who Had to nip down to the local shop and pick up the weeks shopping?

Just like the whale example they can be made more exciting. e.g. "Oh no, youve only got 10 mins before the store closes, Hurry up and get those Items on your shopping list. go gogo ".

but its still NOT exciting.

Grand theft auto, is a game that people love because its realistic (in teh way you want saving whales etc) but what makes people love it, is the evil factor. the factor that people are presented with a seemingly Real world, but are not bound by rules.

People can do what they want. Thats what makes it fun.

if they made it TOO real, and you had to talk to every pedestrian to get directions to your next objective. or if you got pulled over by the cops for running a red light, the game would be boring.

You cant just thrust a player into, everyday boring scenarios and expect them to go. OMG wow this is the future of gaming, amazing.

they need somethign fun to keep them entertained. thats where shooting, and puzzles come in.

and ive lost my train of thought now and my end point lol, so ill stop talking........

......

Now.

 

[Warbie]

He's not saying that though Preacher.

Is wanting a video game with more character development and focus on plot and story a bad thing? It's easy to say he's sticking old ideas in first person. The truth is, these are old ideas that still haven't been realised - and certainly not in a convincing manner.

While playing HL2 a friend of mine came around, the first thing he said was - "they could make a movie out of this engine"

And that's the thing.

This is the first game i've seen, in over a few decades of gaming, that looks and feels 'real enough'. It's now more apparent then ever how much better and involving video games can get.

Experiences that get you emotionally involved in the way a good book can, believable characters, layered plots.

(Noone wants to control a charatcer who does nothing interesting either (why we have npcs ) and that's why noone here is talking about that )

 

[Spartan]

Is wanting a video game with more character development and focus on plot and story a bad thing? It's easy to say he's sticking old ideas in first person. The truth is, these are old ideas that still haven't been realised - and certainly not in a convincing manner.

They have been realised a thousand times. Just because you haven't played many computer games doesn't mean that no one else has.

Experiences that get you emotionally involved in the way a good book can, believable characters, layered plots.

I've had experiences that get me emotionally involved. I've had believable characters and layered plots. I don't need the Source engine for that. Even Chrono Trigger had me emotionally involved, when I played it for the first time using an emulator, four or five years ago.

 

[Ryjalon5k]

one word... myst

 

[Warbie]

They have been realised a thousand times. Just because you haven't played many computer games doesn't mean that no one else has.

Jumping to conclusions?

Name some pls.

(and while it's nothing to be proud of, i've owned virtually every console since the early atari's, and have had a decent pc since Wolfenstein came out. Lack of video gaming is not the case, a misspent youth ..... now that's a different story)

I've had experiences that get me emotionally involved. I've had believable characters and layered plots. I don't need the Source engine for that. Even Chrono Trigger had me emotionally involved, when I played it for the first time using an emulator, four or five years ago.

Oh come on - I loved Chrono Trigger, but emotional involvement? :/ On par with a good book or movie ........ not even close. (and Aeris dying in FF7 doesn't count either lol ... these are just a few examples where video games have even begun to realise their potential)

 

[The_Preacher]

For a guy to admit this is embarresing. but hey anonimity on the HL forums. lol

i almost Cried When Aris (SP) on Final Fantasy 7. i was SO drawn into that story. as if it was a Book or something.

Games can and Have been Emotionaly involving. but i do get your points warbie.
oh and btw i just re-read my post and it sounds a lot more Harsh, and snappy than i intended.

so apologies if you think i was being an ass lol.

 

[Warbie]

one word... myst

... is nothing like he's describing

 

[The_Preacher]

lol warbie. you must have wrote you (and no areis dieing in FF7) post AS i was writing mine lol

 

[Warbie]

For a guy to admit this is embarresing. but hey anonimity on the HL forums. lol

i almost Cried When Aris (SP) on Final Fantasy 7. i was SO drawn into that story. as if it was a Book or something.

Games can and Have been Emotionaly involving. but i do get your points warbie.
oh and btw i just re-read my post and it sounds a lot more Harsh, and snappy than i intended.

so apologies if you think i was being an ass lol.

Nothing to apolgise for.

I'll admit to being a little choked when she died - but you must admit that this is a very rare occurance in video games (and probably the reason this scene is always dicussed when emotional involvement in video games is discussed - as there are barely any others)

 

[Warbie]

lol warbie. you must have wrote you (and no areis dieing in FF7) post AS i was writing mine lol

hehe - i was thinking that