I can't take it anymore...

[AgentSmith]

Aside from all the many rational criticisms of CS:S (bad force fieldy physics, rehashing Quake gameplay on the Source engine, no models, no new maps, sloppy overall fit and finish, etc) the ONE thing that is driving me NUTZ is this engine's HORRIBLE hit detection.

Be it bad hitboxes or bad netcode (or just a bad engine) it is simply beyond belief, IMHO, that Valve released this game in this condition. Flame if you want or pull the fanboy "I don't notice any problems" but the fact is pretty well established and especially in a one dimensional game like CS hit detection is CRITICAL, but in CS:S it is terribly lacking.

Also, please don't give me the "it is just a free port", that is BS - CS:S is the MP for a retail game, therefore it is a retail MP game and should be not only a uality product and work to certain general standards but given the hype by Valve themselves it should be interesting, original, and offer all that Source as an engine has. To slap some 5 year old Quake mod on this supposedly wonderful new engine is just the height of arrogance and indefferance to the community. OK, CS is not your ordinary 5 year old MOD, I grant you that - but given that they didn't even create a single new or original game map or game mode they LEAST that should have been done is to make sure the port was done with great quality. CS:S has many issues, so many - but the hit detection problems are just beyond tenable and Valve should get off thier arse and fix it since they took everyone's money claiming that CS:S was "final" and had all these new "suprises".

 

[Mujuro]

Yea, I mean, Source is supposed to be so good, but there is a brick laying there, and you can't even shoot through the damn holes, as well as it saying headshots when you hit the guys nuts, or some sort? Oh, can I have your computer?

 

[brink's]

Ya, hit detection is my only beef for with this game, ITS TERRIBLE. Must fix now!!

CS is a HL mod.

 

[AgentSmith]

My belief (concern) with the hit detection issue is that when you look at the physics problem and some of the other issues you can only really conclude that the engine is flawed in a MP setting. Maybe flawed is not the right word, maybe limited is better. So far we have seen a couple of these next gen games come out and NOT one of them offers 56k support yet, somehow, Valve claims 56k compatibity for Source. Even the other next gen engines that dropped 56k run like crap online because the next gen features just don't translate well to a MP environment so how is it that Source, magically, is supposed to do what they haven't and do it with 56k support? Simple - it doesn't. They dumbed the whole thing down to make it work and that is why the physics are so wierd with the force field crap and why the netcode and the hit detection sucks so bad.

Think about it - this would also explain why they did not release MP. They had to know it just wouldn't work (bringing the Source features to MP) so they just chose the cop out of porting CS and claiming that as MP. That yields two distinct benifits to them: 1) They can play it off as this free port (which we all know is BS) and therefore not really take hits on the reviews of HL2 as they would if HL2 had an original MP that really sucked and 2) They can further limit the stress on the netcode/engine by using a 5 year old game with small maps, no vehicles, and no advanced gameplay features like modern games have (expansive environments, advanced weapon physics, non linear maps, etc).

I think the real bad news about CS:S is how unlikely the whole idea of all these great Source MP MODs now seems given this analysis. And by dumping CS:S on us as the HL2 MP it will be months before this is confirmed and by then sales will have all tapered anyways so the hit to thier profit will be minimal, far less than if it came out with a new MP and was exposed then as another next gen engine that sucks online.

 

[brink's]

I think the force field thing you are referring to is only there for lag issues, but I could be wrong.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

I think the force field thing you are referring to is only there for lag issues, but I could be wrong.

that kinda seemed like his point.

I agree with some of what you are saying to a degree...
CS:S is fun, and I do enjoy it (although it is getting boring reallly quickly ... how did people play this mod for 5 years? let alone with hl1 gfx)

the hit detection sometimes seems spot on.. other times its like Im shooting a foot behind someone for a kill.

how I play cs is simply running around corners spraying, sometimes I hit something, sometimes I dont... I dont see how you could play it any other way really... I tried the whole being stealthy and aiming shots.. but I merely get mowed down by guys a mile away running jumping and spraying.

 

[AgentSmith]

Exactly - typical Quake gameplay even with CS's (at the time) innovative game modes. Fact is that the gameplay simply doesn't stand up to what games have evolved to since that time but EVEN if you forget that (a subjective issue) the fact remains that it is essential that a run-jump-shootfest with mouse twitching as its only dimension must be accurate in regards to hit detection but CS:S is far from that. Without an accurate engine governing gameplay it is simply a sprayfest with so much BS that the game is intolerable.

 

[ailevation]

:O Maybe the current CS:S is basically a BETA 2.0? They are still tuning out stuff. They will release patches(LOTS!) to enable the game to be at it's full potential! Like when Half Life 2 is finally released!

 

[AgentSmith]

Well, that is a guess. I do not share your 'faith' as this release was clearly titled CS:S Final by Valve for one. I also doubt they will do much to fix it or they would have before public release, after all if CS:S doesn't make the engine look promising it would mean bad sales, so I bet that aside form some bug fixes and maybe skins and maps this is the best they could do. Not one of these major issues was ever adressed during BETA so we are now going on what, 2 months+ of live and not even a single fix for what has to be the most important gameplay issue, hit detection, and nothing for the most hyped Source feature, physics.

I am afraid we may be sadly deluded in thinking that CS:S (or anything on Source) will ever be more than what CS:S is now and that amounts to another next generation engine that is great offline with amazing features but that, in the end, simply doesn't translate to multiplayer.

I mean think about this for a minute - all thise time (for years) we heard about all these great HL2 features and the "top secret" multiplayer. Now, a few months ago it lets out that they did a "port" of CS to Source just to test the viability of the process in anticipation of such efforts in the future. Fast forward to now where we know that CS:S is HL2s only MP, well - which is it? Is it just a port they did on the cheap to test how the process would go or is it the super exciting top secret MP for HL2 that they hyped for all those years? See, I think there was a HL2 MP and they just could not pull it off so at the last minute they scrapped it and just decided to port the old games to Source and leave it at that. It would also explain why the SDK never came out when it was supposed to (can't have MODs coming out right during peak post release sales periods and exposing the lack of real viable MP for Source.

I dunno, is some assuming and speculating on my part to be sure but something DEFINITELY does not add up with this cheap, sloppy CS:S being HL2s MP and the kind of problems it has are ALL engine related and not issues from just rushing a port. Besides, with a game that took 5 years to make and all the delays are we to believe that it was just this summer that they finally got around to asking what to do with MP and that someone said, "well, lets just port over CS and call it HL2 MP - we can do that in a motnh or two". Come on - that doesn't make sense, if CS:S was ALLWAYS supposed to be HL2 MP then it would be finished and not something like what we have now which is so obviously unfinished (apart from the larger engine issues).

 

[UnmarkedOne]

...the ONE thing that is driving me NUTZ is this engine's HORRIBLE hit detection.

I don't consider myself a fanboy of any kind, and especially like to think that I give each and every game a fair review and criticism. I paid little attention to the first few threads about hitboxes. However, there has been quite a bit more debate on the subject as of late, and I decided to look into it. I paid specific attention to this issue last night while playing for hours and hours, and concluded that I don't see ANY problem with the hitboxes whatsoever.

There are two possible reasons that I'm not having trouble with this, that I can think of. One, I always play on a server with less than 50 ping. Often I'm between 30-40 ping in a game, so I never have to compensate for lag of any kind. I aim and fire, and they die. I've played plenty of shooters where I'd fire a few bullets or even a clip into an opponent's body and not do a bit of damage. I never do a double-take in CS:S and wonder why he didn't die. The only time I lose is just by chance when someone gets a lucky headshot, or a do something plain stupid (happens a lot, but I'm never surprised when I get dropped).

Two, I have a pretty fast computer. My rig is almost top-of-the-line, and though I'm not sure that has much to do with hit detection, my brother has more issues with it than I do, and he's got a noticeably slower processor/vid card.

Does anyone else not have problems with hitbox position, or am I all alone here?

-UnmarkedOne

 

[AgentSmith]

Well, you would be hard pressed to have a better rig than mine (see my sig) so that isn't it. Server problems are possible but the physics issue (another symptom of a need to dumb everything down to cover for the engine working online) is just as borked if you run a listen server where you have no lag. Videos exist in abundance to show the hitbox issues so it is pretty fairly stated as a game problem and not an end user one from what I can see.

Besides, go back to what I said above - if CS:S was allways supposed to be HL2 MP then why is it so unfinished? Why all the comments from Valve (officially) about the top secret MP while at the same time talking about CS:S as just a quickie port top test compatibility. Logic tells us there had to be a HL2 MP that, for some reason, got scrapped.

 

[UnmarkedOne]

the hit detection sometimes seems spot on.. other times its like Im shooting a foot behind someone for a kill.

Though I claim to never have encoutered hitbox problems, there might be something to my ping question. Perhaps in the more laggy servers, those problems start to appear? Maybe it's possible that if one's ISP or net connection is slow one day, they'll run into the problem, whereas someone on the same server with a much faster connection will have no problems at all.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[AgentSmith]

Again, don't think that is the case. Many people have tested this out and even shot videos with only two people on a server with the issue still showing up. In addition in real situations I play only on low ping servers and check for choke or other problems. I also NEVER play on any servers with more than 16 or 18 people - I think these maps just don't work well with more. So if you consider that this engine is having this trouble with such low player counts on such small linear maps it even amplifies the evidence of a problem.

Believe me, with games out there allowing 64, 100, and 150 players on maps that span miles and miles any MP engine worth a damn should be able to handle CS maps with 12, 16, or 20 players with ZERO difficulty at all. Also, CS:S has simple weapon physics (no wind or distance drop or toher such calculations) and has no vehicles or even any foliage or any other advanced gameplay features to burden the engine like many other succesful MP games these days. CS:S has only two things to do, really, keep track of bullets and players and a few barrels, compared to other games that are out there is it just not a heavy load.

 

[UnmarkedOne]

Well, you would be hard pressed to have a better rig than mine (see my sig) so that isn't it.

Yeah, meant to mention that in my above post. Your rig should definitely be getting more frames than mine, and still have processing power left over, so I doubt that's the issue as well.

On a side note, I play PlanetSide often, and the game has extremely high processor and net speed requirements. Some battles consist of over 100 people on each of three sides, battling in one small CS:S-map-sized area. As you can imagine, lag spikes are bound to arise, and immediately you know when the hitboxes are off.

After playing a certain number of various shooters online, you can just sense when the hitboxes aren't right, and I'm fairly sure I'd know if CS:S was suffering from this problem. I think there's more to it than just "Valve's crappy programming" or a buggy engine. And lastly, please don't take this as a flame at all, Agent. I can understand your frustration completely after having played it on my brother's machine.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[AgentSmith]

Yeah, I get a solid 90 to 100 FPS avg. I applaud the engine for how fast it renders great graphics - that is not the issue. Source might not be the best of the best graphics wise but it is certainly the most realistic looking overall and the best engine at producing great graphics effeciently.

The issue at hand, however, is how the totallity of the features translate to multiplayer and from what I can see Source is falling just as short of bringing the 'next generation' features to multiplayer as FarCry and Doom 3 alike. Anyways, the hit detection issue is a very real one - you can see enough cooments on it to know that and you can even see video evidence of the problem as well as observing some other rather stark comprimises that they made with the physics system which also indicates trouble.

 

[perrkele]

I hate to be repeating myself, but do you guys know what commands such as rate, cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate and (ex_)cl_interp do? If you actually do know what their function is, and how to adjust them properly, then you can complain as much as you like. However, if you are clueless as to how the netcode in CS (and CS:S) works, it's a bit funny to be complaining about hitboxes.

The way Valve is able to have 56k guys playing the game is due to the default network settings of the clients. The defaults are sort of like "works-for-everyone" settings, so they are basically meant for the low-end of internet connections, ie. 56k modems more or less. You need to adjust these settings (the rates that I mentioned earlier), if you'd like a more accurate feeling to the game with a better connection.

I've been playing a bit on the Halflife2.net UK servers, and even with a ping as awful as 80, I haven't noticed anything huge. And besides, these servers aren't probably even properly configured. I've also played a couple of games on ~10 ping Finnish servers with good server cfgs, and the game really works just as well as CS 1.6 (which, to my knowledge, has only two hitbox bugs left). I have a 10mb connection and I'm using 25k/101/101/0.009 myself without getting any choke, but I have to say that I haven't yet played enough to make any definitive conclusions about hitbox errors.

But yes, CS does have a long history of hitbox bugs (most of which are fixed by now though), so it wouldn't really be a miracle that there are some in CS:S. However, I believe most of the inaccuracies some people are experiencing can be explained with badly configured network settings and/or high ping. Plus remember: although you do have proper settings for your connection, spectating other players with bad ones will result in rather funny kills. What you see when spectating others is not even nearly an exact copy of what the other player sees on his screen.

 

[Bling]

im faithful that valve will release a patch ASAP.

cheating is also a problem, i guess there is a way to see through walls, and now i trust no one

>_<

 

[Vidrio]

I dont have any problems with hitboxes..

p4 2.4ghz
radeon 9800 pro
1gb ram
-
80/80/20000
768k modem
-

I get around 75fps constantly (vsync on)

I also feel its better than 1.6, guns actually do damage, shotguns are actually useful.

Seriously, you shouldnt be getting any problems on a rig like that, imo I think your being overly paranoid. Once I had my fps config sorted out, I just put my mind off it and just played. Its fine. cl_smooth sorted out my jumpy problems, and my rates helped everything else I spose.

edit: .. also .. I havent seen any cheats. ... why is everyone saying cheats are freakin common? :x .. I play on the hl2.net servers and then random pubs and some clan servers I know. I can honestly say I havent seen 1 >_< or suspected 1

 

[PointBlank]

I think someone forgot to give you the memo, but this is an arcade like shooter. All of your hits, (besides head shot) register as the same thing..

 

[ukfluke]

vidrio its funny u seem to be the only one who doesnt have any issues. Even CPL have said to valve its not good enough for cpl it and it needs fixed.

Your going to look pretty dumb when valve start patching it with updates like "improved netcode" & "improved hitbox reg" etc or i suppose u think it doesnt need any updates?

 

[Vidrio]

ok great .. the almighty cpl !
Maybe I am pretty dumb, but atleast I can enjoy the game and not notice any problems, maybe I am just used to the problems and exploit them to the full potential of them.

My scores dont differ, I have no problems getting kills. I would post screenshots, but I consider that rather lame and slightly gay. But then I did post one in the 'Your best cs:s score' thread ;p

 

[ukfluke]

yes the cpl who took advice from the competetive scene. CS:S as it stands is not a solid competetive platform. THIS WAS THE KEY SUCCESS TO WHY CS WAS SO POPULAR VALVE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

 

[Vidrio]

yes the cpl who took advice from the competetive scene. CS:S as it stands is not a solid competetive platform. THIS WAS THE KEY SUCCESS TO WHY CS WAS SO POPULAR VALVE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

no. That was 1 of the many reasons. Public cs is a _MAJOR_ part of the current cs scene, I started cs about 4 years ago from an online friend who used to go play with '|cs' in his irc name, I wondered wtf this game was, he told me it was counter-strike, I went and bought it and have been playing ever since. Nothing to do with any leagues or anything. Infact I dont even know of any leagues/competitions that where around in 1.1, I was only young at the time anyway and not really very good.

I have played lots of competative cs too, not however on cs source. I shall see how that pans out in the future months, the game hasnt had long enought to develop like cs yet. I dont know many people who are currently playing it.Obviously bugs are gonna be there but as of yet in my public playing I see _no_ problems to do with reg, hitboxes etc.

 

[ukfluke]

being a solid competetive platform by nature makes huge numbersplay it in pubs or in leagues. The game is well balanced, good netcode/reg, accurate (its not perfect but much better than cs:s)

cs:s has the same gameplay (rescue hostage/plant bomb) but is being slated? why? becuase its so random and not a solid game.

 

[Vidrio]

Where is it being slated? .. does anyone have any proof? .. or is it just your word verses mine?

 

[ukfluke]

well cpl say its not good. also have a look at the comments here http://www.sk-gaming.com/forums.php?forum_id=2&id=26662 even allowing for some of the complete retards who post most comments are negative.

 

[Vidrio]

ok fine.
I'ma go play cs source now anyhow ;p

 

[ItchyFish]

I wub you AgentSmith. . . .

Seriously though, it really gets me the hitboxes, why would they release a "final" game with such obvious flaws that are critical to the game. Certainly when CS is built around accuracy and being true to real life.

 

[Cole]

If you don't like it, dun play it. You arn't forced it....it technically comes free with HL2 so it's not like you "Bought" it.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

Exactly - typical Quake gameplay even with CS's (at the time) innovative game modes. Fact is that the gameplay simply doesn't stand up to what games have evolved to since that time but EVEN if you forget that (a subjective issue) the fact remains that it is essential that a run-jump-shootfest with mouse twitching as its only dimension must be accurate in regards to hit detection but CS:S is far from that. Without an accurate engine governing gameplay it is simply a sprayfest with so much BS that the game is intolerable.

I have to agree whole-heartedly, as I said.. I don't know how people played this mod for 5 years... let alone how the hell they are going to stomache it for another couple...

I played CS in the early alphas, when people dropped HEV packs for ammo, and there was one model for each side.. that looked exactly the damn same (well close enough), and it was fun as hell.

but it got boring, and the community went down the shitter, so I left.. and I never played it after those early alphas... so when I came to CS:S it was something new for me.. plus I am a graphics whore and the graphics were superb.

but it gets boring so quickly.... It just isn't my cup of tea gameplay wise... hell If I want a death match paced game I will play the TS mod for HL1 (The Specialists) in fact thats what I am back to playing..... it doesnt have the physics.. or the graphics... or even the sound of cs:s, but the community (for the most part in game, are great) and the gameplay is fun.

 

[AgentSmith]

I dont have any problems with hitboxes..

p4 2.4ghz
radeon 9800 pro
1gb ram
-
80/80/20000
768k modem
-

I get around 75fps constantly (vsync on)

I also feel its better than 1.6, guns actually do damage, shotguns are actually useful.

Seriously, you shouldnt be getting any problems on a rig like that, imo I think your being overly paranoid. Once I had my fps config sorted out, I just put my mind off it and just played. Its fine. cl_smooth sorted out my jumpy problems, and my rates helped everything else I spose.

edit: .. also .. I havent seen any cheats. ... why is everyone saying cheats are freakin common? :x .. I play on the hl2.net servers and then random pubs and some clan servers I know. I can honestly say I havent seen 1 >_< or suspected 1

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44156

The cheats are allready confirmed (even built in one line settings) and the hitbox issues are also well documented. The force field physics are undisputably goofy so there really isn't anything to argue about. If it doesn't bother you then fine, keep playing - but many people expect a game like HL2 (and the Source engine) to at a minimum advance all areas of gameplay and performance and not just copy a 5 year old Quake MOD and even worse copy it with more problems.

 

[$niffy]

Net code problem lies with cl_smooth 0 Everyone is switching to that setting so it dont get jolty/jumpy but it completely screws the netcode.

Agent smith, i dunno what you was expecting. Look up the word "port" in the gaming sense and come back and take back your "why didnt they add..." comments.

 

[smsKONG]

I hate to be repeating myself, but do you guys know what commands such as rate, cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate and (ex_)cl_interp do? If you actually do know what their function is, and how to adjust them properly, then you can complain as much as you like. However, if you are clueless as to how the netcode in CS (and CS:S) works, it's a bit funny to be complaining about hitboxes.

The way Valve is able to have 56k guys playing the game is due to the default network settings of the clients. The defaults are sort of like "works-for-everyone" settings, so they are basically meant for the low-end of internet connections, ie. 56k modems more or less. You need to adjust these settings (the rates that I mentioned earlier), if you'd like a more accurate feeling to the game with a better connection.

I've been playing a bit on the Halflife2.net UK servers, and even with a ping as awful as 80, I haven't noticed anything huge. And besides, these servers aren't probably even properly configured. I've also played a couple of games on ~10 ping Finnish servers with good server cfgs, and the game really works just as well as CS 1.6 (which, to my knowledge, has only two hitbox bugs left). I have a 10mb connection and I'm using 25k/101/101/0.009 myself without getting any choke, but I have to say that I haven't yet played enough to make any definitive conclusions about hitbox errors.

But yes, CS does have a long history of hitbox bugs (most of which are fixed by now though), so it wouldn't really be a miracle that there are some in CS:S. However, I believe most of the inaccuracies some people are experiencing can be explained with badly configured network settings and/or high ping. Plus remember: although you do have proper settings for your connection, spectating other players with bad ones will result in rather funny kills. What you see when spectating others is not even nearly an exact copy of what the other player sees on his screen.

Something I've been saying since the early days of the Beta- too many people are using random rates they "heard" were good on the steampowered forums....

That whole cl_smooth thing really irked me somewhat aswell- everyone took it as gospel that it was right to jump on the bandwagon, I actually did a bit of research and found out it was quite a big part of the netcode.
Essentially cl_smooth Helps smooth out movement when other players have packet loss, very low rate or other network problems.
Unfortunately trying to get your point across on the steampowered forums is much the same as getting blood out of a stone...

 

[AgentSmith]

Can you tell me another game that requires manual editing of config files in order to get play that is not jerky or to be able to get it so the netcode doesn't make it nearly impossible to hit anything? Or another game that allows clients to adjust things that affect other players in this regard?

Come on - it is a major flaw no matter which way you slice it.

rate "???" (left out of default config entirely)
cl_rate "???" (left out of default config entirely)

cl_cmdrate "30"
cl_updaterate "20"
cl_cmdbackup "2"
cl_smooth "1"

So, those are the settings in question. Where is someone from Valve who SOLD the game to explain how to set them since what you are saying is that the game runs like crap if they are not manually set correctly? Simple answer - they are nowhere because they don't give two sh3ts and they are too lazy (or to incompetant) to have this set properly through the in game menus.

Something I've been saying since the early days of the Beta- too many people are using random rates they "heard" were good on the steampowered forums....

I, for one and probably as most, anm not using random settings - I am using the settings that the game sets up - if it sets them wrong or inadequately that is ENTIRELY Valve's f-up especially isnce there is no in game option to adjust them or any proper explination of what the settings are or how they should be set.

 

[$niffy]

Yeah, the built in wall-hacks really does take the piss and the cl_smooth command but thats ALL that is bothering me atm. Otherwise the game is great and even with these flaws, not played a game nearly as fun to play online.

 

[AgentSmith]

The hack thing is pretty lame - just more evidence that Valve just slapped CS:S together in order to trick the community into buying through Steam. Also really makes you wonder, as I said before, how succesfull any MODs are gonna be with this engine as the early info on Source is that it is not good netcode, bad MP physics, and now the graphics scaling is exploitable to this degree. Pretty sad all around really.

 

[AgentSmith]

Agent smith, i dunno what you was expecting. Look up the word "port" in the gaming sense and come back and take back your "why didnt they add..." comments.

Well, I think the people who should be questioned about what they "expect" are the ones that think it is somehow acceptable to simply do a sloppy port of a 5 year old free MOD and call that the MP for one of the most anticipated games of all time? What I expected was a true Source MP - one that uses all the engine can do and lives up top the hype and promises that Valve made for oh so many years. What I got was the same game with friggin barrels that push you around when you get near them and netcode that cannot even track 16 players bullets on a small, linear map.

I am not trying to be harsh here but if you take out the emotion of being an HL/CS fan the game they SOLD us is terribly lacking by any objective standard.

 

[smsKONG]

Can you tell me another game that requires manual editing of config files in order to get play that is not jerky or to be able to get it so the netcode doesn't make it nearly impossible to hit anything? Or another game that allows clients to adjust things that affect other players in this regard?

Come on - it is a major flaw no matter which way you slice it.



So, those are the settings in question. Where is someone from Valve who SOLD the game to explain how to set them since what you are saying is that the game runs like crap if they are not manually set correctly? Simple answer - they are nowhere because they don't give two sh3ts and they are too lazy (or to incompetant) to have this set properly through the in game menus.



I, for one and probably as most, anm not using random settings - I am using the settings that the game sets up - if it sets them wrong or inadequately that is ENTIRELY Valve's f-up especially isnce there is no in game option to adjust them or any proper explination of what the settings are or how they should be set.

1st point- Another game that lets you mess around with the netcode settings= Doom3

2nd point- I quite agree, valve should give us some official info on what rates different connections need. I have requested it on the steampowered forums, via the bug report tool(!) and also via email to valve......still no word ;(

3rd point- Yes you've left your rates at default, and they may well be the correct rates for you (what connection do you have?). However if the person you are shooting at is choking up and losing packets left right and centre, and then using a command like cl_smooth 0; the fact is you may start seeing errors and have problems yourself

 

[AgentSmith]

1st point- Another game that lets you mess around with the netcode settings= Doom3

Sure - you can mess with the settings but there is a system through the game GUI to do it and unless you have some kind of serious trouble you don't need to go into the config. Besides that comparing Source MP to Doom 3 MP kinda proves my point.

2nd point- I quite agree, valve should give us some official info on what rates different connections need. I have requested it on the steampowered forums, via the bug report tool(!) and also via email to valve......still no word ;(

I doubt we get one, they just wanted to scam away some cash from VU with this steam release and now that they have thiers I doubt we will ever get much from them.

3rd point- Yes you've left your rates at default, and they may well be the correct rates for you (what connection do you have?). However if the person you are shooting at is choking up and losing packets left right and centre, and then using a command like cl_smooth 0; the fact is you may start seeing errors and have problems yourself

Again - that is my point. How many games let this type of serious disruption to the network happen? Many people mess with the settings to cheat/exploit making themselves harder to hit with a fake lag effect. Aside from that the point remains that if these settings are so important to the game even being playable there should be an simple GUI interface to adjust them.

In the end I think the settings are only a bandaid at best - the problem lies in the netcode and the fact that they are trying to shortcut around good networking to be able to lay claim to 56k support. Who lnows what will happen but I doubt Valve would have released such a foul example of thier precious Source engine unless it was just the best they could get out of it. There is precedent for this, many of the next gen games simply do not translate to MP and ALL of them are broadband only so it isn't a stretch to think that Source is just a dog since it includes 56k support and we can see the problems online.

 

[pyroCow]

It doesnt suck! I get extra headshots! (Thank you crappy hit detection)