I didn't download the beta because...

[Washuu]

u think valve could pull of a good client side anti-cheat, similar to CD + server side anti-cheat....
making it mandatory would be easy.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
True, but the attention and the downloading of leaked software is what causes hackers to perform the deed.

If absolutely no one gave a crap about a Half-Life beta, would the hacker still have made one?

you are wrong. its not that everyone gives a crap about a hl2 beta. its the fact that everyone gives a crap about halflife 2 PERIOD. the hype created by the e3 demo spawned many many fans that would jump at the oppurtunity for a hl2 beta. so you can blame valve for the hackers deed. cause its their fault the game is so popular.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
This statement is complete speculation. It has as much proof as people saying downloading the beta financially hurts Valve.




You are assuming that every download of the beta is simply to play with the game.



And in the real world there are those that can greatly profit from the knowledge gained from this beta, all at Valve's expense. Since you like to analyze cost so much, examine the opportunity costs of looking at Valve's source code compared to designing it for yourself from scratch.

you forget that we are talking about the beta, not the source code.

not every download of the beta is to play the game yes, some it is for mod makers to start making their mods for hl2. you have no idea how much this will benefit valve, this way when hl2 comes out many mods will be extremely close to first releases and when the gaming community learns this, they will snatch up hl2 so fast it wont even be funny

 

[Liquidcube]

I have to agree with the majority here. I remember when I first played Half life 5 years ago and how great it is. If I downloaded a pre release back then my experiance with it wouldn't have been as memorable.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
but most people know(whether they rant about it on a forum or not) that a beta is incomplete and that the store final will be much better.

[/B]

Do they? On what ground do you base this assumption? Are you basing this on your own knowledge (i.e. do you consider yourself to be fairly average gamer, so if you know, then it applies to most people on average?). I would just like you to clarify this so that I could get a better understanding of how you came to this conclusion.

um. yeah, i really dont have to say anything about that, except that it made me laugh out loud, but if you think valve employees really take to heart what is said on these forums by the immature kids who flame that dont know that a beta is a work in progress, you really need to get a reality check. i bet valve laughs at these idiots if they ever DO come on these forums.

I'm sure Valve loves it when the fanatical immature kid that flames a game based on the beta (I will not disagree that this is stupid), and imposes his ill-informed opinions onto his peers at school.

I'm also sure that Valve will really love the attention that any mainstream media picks up about them being less trustworthy company, and we all know how the media likes to portray things. Any of Valve's concerns about what immature kids say on the forum are not taken directly, but indirectly. How might these comments negatively affect their image when they are taken out of context by someone that might actually care. Negative publicity is always very powerful. Sometimes it can be a good thing (in the case of the game Postal....hordes of negative publicity based on an excessively violent video game, which perked interest). However, when reports get out that attack a company's credibility and ability, its the people outside that company that will take notice. Will this happen? That I do not know. But since it is in fact a possibility, it must be mentioned. Don't underestimate the ability of one fanatic to influence the purchasing decisions of those that have not actively researched the game as thoroughly.

about the beta not working as advertising.. comparing it to a full released game and pirating that, now THATS asinine. ive heard several reports of people showing their friends the beta and 2 or 3 of them went and preordered hl2. same thing happened with me and one of my friends so far. we were sort of unsure about hl2, cause of all the new games coming out, this beta sealed the deal for us after finding out how much potential the game has. now that is proof, well unless you want it beyond a shadow of doubt. which i can get phone numbers and you can get statements from them. how bout them apples?

Them apples is purely anecdotal evidence. In the scientific community it means very little. I could just as easily say that I know people that have said that the Half-Life 2 beta did little to impress them, so now they are leaning towards buying Doom 3 (this does not say Half-Life 2 is out of the question, but with limited money they will make their more expensive, and most profitable for the developer, purchase in a specific way).

To clarify, anecdotal evidence is very weak. Furthermore, it is based on an extremely narrow sample, and applied to the total population, which is sampling bias.

and as much as you like to think people who download the beta have no morals and are just evil people. i do have morals. but i dont hold onto useless morals, only ones that can affect other beings. you can hold onto your moral that somehow you are doing good by not downloading the beta and your reward is a good conscience, thats exactly how many religious nuts are, they do pointless things to feel good about themselves without logically thinking it through for the rest of their life till they die, but my conscience is clean, because my action of downloading the beta hasn't affected anyone negatively, but on the contrary.

I have not, nor have I ever, said that people that have downloaded the beta are in any way immoral. I have simply stated that downloading the beta does not coincide with YOUR moral beliefs. However, in one of your posts, you go on to talk about how people that claim morality are wrong. It seems a bit forthcoming to impose what you believe to be morally correct, especially considering just how subjective morality is.

For example, if someone morally thinks it is wrong to download a beta that the developer did not approve, then I will not download it. Is this any different between refusing to buy a stolen television. If you think about it, your buying the television will not hurt the person that owned the television anymore....they've already lost their television. However, when people consider the means by which the supplier attained the television, suddenly ethics plays a big part. Purchasing the television lets the supplier know that there is a market for stolen televisions, and perhaps he will steal again.

Is this any different? If you feel it is, please elaborate. Thanks.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
duh. there are plenty of tangible side effects for what the hacker has done. im talking about downloading the beta. lemme put it in laymens terms.

joeshmoe downloads a copy of hl2 beta.

explain in this situation some negative tangible side effects(that would happen in THIS reality)

Every download that occurs of the beta increases the chances that someone could take ideas from the beta, and use them for their own good.

(This is very hypothetical)Lets say one of the idSoftware developers download it, and see some super cool effect that isn't shown in any of the E3 demos. They run the effect by Mr. Carmack, and he says he can easily implement it. Now, prior to the release of this beta, Doom 3 would never have had this feature. However, now that Doom 3 will have this feature, if it is released first, Doom 3 will be the game that receives all the attention about this feature. Even if Half-Life does it better, more often than not it's who's first that matters (look no further than Microsoft Windows versus Mac OS.....Windows was first, albeit overseas, and this revolutionized the entire computer industry. Microsoft is the richest company in the world, and Apple needed financial support from Microsoft to stay in business).

This can affect Half-Life in various ways, perhaps in review scores. This feature will not affect the final score of the game nearly as much, which may lower its score, perhaps to that below Doom 3. Now people on a limited budget that will only buy one game may look to these reviews to help their decision, and if Doom 3 is doing on average better than Half-Life 2, they'll go with Doom 3.


As for Joe Schmoe doing it, he could look at a feature that is in the beta, falsely assume that this is the way it is going to be in the final release, and make incorrect judgements on the quality of the game and let it affect their decision.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
you are wrong. its not that everyone gives a crap about a hl2 beta. its the fact that everyone gives a crap about halflife 2 PERIOD. the hype created by the e3 demo spawned many many fans that would jump at the oppurtunity for a hl2 beta. so you can blame valve for the hackers deed. cause its their fault the game is so popular.

Exactly. The fact that people were so interested in Half-Life 2 meant that there would be a market for a Half-Life 2 beta, or even just the source code. People were so fanatical about Half-Life 2 that they would do absolutely anything for any sort of information. If, at the time, everyone was absolutely content to simply wait for the game to be released after it had been delayed, do you think it would have happened.


As for blaming valve for the hackers deed....sounds like blaming the victim to me.

Don't blame the rapist....it's not his fault the woman was particularly attractive....she shouldn't have tempted him to rape her.


Are you therefore saying that companies should keep a complete media blackout of their game over the entire length of development, so as not to tempt anyone from hacking their network and stealing it from them?

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
you forget that we are talking about the beta, not the source code.

not every download of the beta is to play the game yes, some it is for mod makers to start making their mods for hl2. you have no idea how much this will benefit valve, this way when hl2 comes out many mods will be extremely close to first releases and when the gaming community learns this, they will snatch up hl2 so fast it wont even be funny

That's assuming you are actually able to start making mods. Without the source code or any sort of SDK, how can someone begin work on a mod? Or did some tools ship with the beta (which would begin to change the discussion IMO).

 

[MrBond]

I didn't download it because I sympathize with Valve. This is their hard work, and to have it all ruined by some guy with a grudge, and for us to contribute to this act of piracy and theft (don't let the RIAA and MPAA's overuse of those words fool you, it does apply in this case ) just encourages these sort of acts in the future.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
Every download that occurs of the beta increases the chances that someone could take ideas from the beta, and use them for their own good.

(This is very hypothetical)Lets say one of the idSoftware developers download it, and see some super cool effect that isn't shown in any of the E3 demos. They run the effect by Mr. Carmack, and he says he can easily implement it. Now, prior to the release of this beta, Doom 3 would never have had this feature. However, now that Doom 3 will have this feature, if it is released first, Doom 3 will be the game that receives all the attention about this feature. Even if Half-Life does it better, more often than not it's who's first that matters (look no further than Microsoft Windows versus Mac OS.....Windows was first, albeit overseas, and this revolutionized the entire computer industry. Microsoft is the richest company in the world, and Apple needed financial support from Microsoft to stay in business).

This can affect Half-Life in various ways, perhaps in review scores. This feature will not affect the final score of the game nearly as much, which may lower its score, perhaps to that below Doom 3. Now people on a limited budget that will only buy one game may look to these reviews to help their decision, and if Doom 3 is doing on average better than Half-Life 2, they'll go with Doom 3.


As for Joe Schmoe doing it, he could look at a feature that is in the beta, falsely assume that this is the way it is going to be in the final release, and make incorrect judgements on the quality of the game and let it affect their decision.

you type too much. and i dont feel like typing a lot right now, but ill address some mini points.

1. people that are too stupid to know what a beta is and that the final will be different are on teh majority not the rich ones or influential ones. so the impact they have is very miniscule. think about it

and you're right that is very hypothetical, and a situation that would never happen because carmack has more honor than that.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
That's assuming you are actually able to start making mods. Without the source code or any sort of SDK, how can someone begin work on a mod? Or did some tools ship with the beta (which would begin to change the discussion IMO).

this post shows how little you know of the actual beta content. lets just say, there are more than enough dev tools to edit or make any aspect of the game.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
Exactly. The fact that people were so interested in Half-Life 2 meant that there would be a market for a Half-Life 2 beta, or even just the source code. People were so fanatical about Half-Life 2 that they would do absolutely anything for any sort of information. If, at the time, everyone was absolutely content to simply wait for the game to be released after it had been delayed, do you think it would have happened.


As for blaming valve for the hackers deed....sounds like blaming the victim to me.

Don't blame the rapist....it's not his fault the woman was particularly attractive....she shouldn't have tempted him to rape her.


Are you therefore saying that companies should keep a complete media blackout of their game over the entire length of development, so as not to tempt anyone from hacking their network and stealing it from them?

you are dense, man, this is exactly why i said 'blame valve' is because of how stupid that reasoning is. i said it so you could understand how impossible the situation is. of course companies need to give out content. therefore its inevitable for a leak to happen once in a while. but my point stands, it wasn't the demand for the beta , it was the demand for hl2 content. which the beta provided.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
you type too much. and i dont feel like typing a lot right now, but ill address some mini points.

1. people that are too stupid to know what a beta is and that the final will be different are on teh majority not the rich ones or influential ones. so the impact they have is very miniscule. think about it

Tell that to all those that were murdered in the Salem Witch Trials. Or the Crusades. Or the Inquisition.

The fear of the ignorant masses can be excruciatingly influential. If I rely on my friend to give me HL2 information (for whatever reason), and he says to me Valve is a lying ass company, and the features they boast are crap because of what he saw in the beta, depending on how much I trust the guy, it will influence my perspective on the game....it's basic behavioural psychology.

Remember Men in Black. "A person is smart...People are stupid." People have much more money than a single person though. Majority rules.

and you're right that is very hypothetical, and a situation that would never happen because carmack has more honor than that.

Does he? Prove it! Besides, what if Carmack didn't know where it came from? I don't deny that he very likely would not do that, but you are stating it as fact, without proof. It is merely an assumption.

 

[alanschu]

this post shows how little you know of the actual beta content. lets just say, there are more than enough dev tools to edit or make any aspect of the game

This begins to change the nature of the debate then. If some development tools are provided, then the possibilities of ideas being taken prior to Valve's wishes becomes prevalent. Ideas that can be implemented into other software.

Granted, an SDK will become available at release, but like I said it depends on what happens first. If Half-Life 2 is out, then people can mimic ideas to their hearts content. The masses will perceive it as something that spawned from Half-Life 2.

However, being that Half-Life 2's release date is uncertain, any features of the developer tools could be added to another game, and if that game is released prior to Half-Life 2, then when we see it in Half-Life 2 it becomes less impressive. This could affect review scores, which do have an effect on purchasing decisions, particularly by those that are too busy to actively follow Half-Life 2 thoroughly.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
you are dense, man, this is exactly why i said 'blame valve' is because of how stupid that reasoning is. i said it so you could understand how impossible the situation is. of course companies need to give out content. therefore its inevitable for a leak to happen once in a while. but my point stands, it wasn't the demand for the beta , it was the demand for hl2 content. which the beta provided.

How stupid what reasoning is?


Additionally, demand for Half-Life 2 content is a blanket statement. If there is demand for Half-Life 2 content, then there is inherently a demand for a beta (or anything else). Unless a beta is not Half-Life 2 content.

As for "blaming Valve," that idea is still completely ludicrous. Blame the victim approaches only help to create an atmosphere of fear, and curtails expression (possibly including reducing any "updates" about Half-Life 2....when was the last time we heard from Valve?).

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
How stupid what reasoning is?


Additionally, demand for Half-Life 2 content is a blanket statement. If there is demand for Half-Life 2 content, then there is inherently a demand for a beta (or anything else). Unless a beta is not Half-Life 2 content.

As for "blaming Valve," that idea is still completely ludicrous. Blame the victim approaches only help to create an atmosphere of fear, and curtails expression (possibly including reducing any "updates" about Half-Life 2....when was the last time we heard from Valve?).

you still dont get it. i KNOW the 'blaming valve' idea is ludicrous, thats exactly why i brought it up. my point is there is no one to blame because hl2 is so popular. valve releases content like any other developer, but this game is hyped more than any other game. so people's lust for content might drive someone to an elaborate hack to get some content. and that lust has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING illegal. it just spawns something illegal.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu


Tell that to all those that were murdered in the Salem Witch Trials. Or the Crusades. Or the Inquisition.

The fear of the ignorant masses can be excruciatingly influential. If I rely on my friend to give me HL2 information (for whatever reason), and he says to me Valve is a lying ass company, and the features they boast are crap because of what he saw in the beta, depending on how much I trust the guy, it will influence my perspective on the game....it's basic behavioural psychology.

Remember Men in Black. "A person is smart...People are stupid." People have much more money than a single person though. Majority rules.



Does he? Prove it! Besides, what if Carmack didn't know where it came from? I don't deny that he very likely would not do that, but you are stating it as fact, without proof. It is merely an assumption. [/B]

thats not a good example because the masses arent igorant of the beta in this case. we can get a good idea from the community and talking with people. i mean cmon we have many hl2 fans on this forum. if we conducted a poll about whether or not people would buy hl2 or not based on the beta. we could get some good evidence there. this is probably the best place anywhere to get the evidence, and its safe to say that just by reading peoples posts after being here for a couple months i know that the majority of people are not stupid about the beta and know the final version will be much better. the truth is you have a very low expectation of people.

and yes i can't prove carmack wouldn't steal some code, i basically can't prove anything. i know people exactly like you. but if you want to be mr prove it. i can play that game too.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu


This begins to change the nature of the debate then. If some development tools are provided, then the possibilities of ideas being taken prior to Valve's wishes becomes prevalent. Ideas that can be implemented into other software.

Granted, an SDK will become available at release, but like I said it depends on what happens first. If Half-Life 2 is out, then people can mimic ideas to their hearts content. The masses will perceive it as something that spawned from Half-Life 2.

However, being that Half-Life 2's release date is uncertain, any features of the developer tools could be added to another game, and if that game is released prior to Half-Life 2, then when we see it in Half-Life 2 it becomes less impressive. This could affect review scores, which do have an effect on purchasing decisions, particularly by those that are too busy to actively follow Half-Life 2 thoroughly. [/B]

nope, thats not good enough. you're going to have to be specific about how people can steal 'ideas' from the dev tools. this general bullshit won't cut it anymore. get back to me when you are done speaking in useless generalties and have something tangible to talk about. otherwise its just a waste of keyboard strokes.

 

[Metallicock]

I've not looked at it simply because I want Valve opus in all its glory. I fact, I've not even seen any of the gameplay videos or in game screenshots. This is gonna make the whole experience fresh and exciting from start to finish. all I can say is it better be worth the weeks of torture!

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Respect!!!!


Not sure if I believe you like. But nice thought!!






Oh and its gona be worth the wait. I just know it!!!


*Prays*

 

[ph34r t3h cute]

Well.. I found a link (dont bother pm'ing me, I wont tell anyone it) and im now downloading it, but I dont give a crap about the code, I just want too see the game (however buggy) I will be buyying it when it comes out, I know I said I would not cus stealing code is wrong, but 1. i dont want it for the code and 2. I suck at resisting please no one say "warezkiddies crap reason for download" Cus I know its stealing, Im not makeing up crap to myself look better -_-" lar de dar..

 

[poseyjmac]

dont worry you can't look any worse than right now

 

[ph34r t3h cute]

Im not worried, dont worry about it I know I smell of "scum of the earth" cus I have the beta

 

[poseyjmac]

ok just so you know

 

[plasmax000]

Originally posted by The Mullinator
all thats left for goody two shoes members to do is guilt trip those who downloaded the beta for no reason, the majority of which do it because they are jealous they can't get the beta cause they dont have the means. what a great mask for moral chilvarly.

Umm, no. I didn't download the beta because it's not fair to Valve. There were most likely things left unfinished in there, it's not something they intended to release to the public, and it should have stayed that way.

*looks around*

I don't know about you, but I'm not trying to guilt-trip. I'm just trying to dissuade people from doing what I feel is wrong.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Agreed. I have 512 broadband and I am sure that If I had that damned bit torrent link I could download it. But I wont!
Mostly because I respect valve and I dont want to spoil the game for myself either!



EDIT: WOOT WAHOO ETC. We have finally made it to 1000 people not downloaded the beta out of the 10000 who are signed up to this forum!!
Thats one in ten. Thats slightly respectable now!

 

[plasmax000]

Forgot one other thing:

My objective is not to make myself feel better, I'm just trying to stop the bleeding from Valve's wound.

I'm not blaming the people who downloaded the beta, but if you did, please at least think about removing it. It's not like I'm going to see you as "evil" if you don't (where'd you get that idea anyways), but it would just be better overall if you did.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by plasmax000
Forgot one other thing:

My objective is not to make myself feel better, I'm just trying to stop the bleeding from Valve's wound.

I'm not blaming the people who downloaded the beta, but if you did, please at least think about removing it. It's not like I'm going to see you as "evil" if you don't (where'd you get that idea anyways), but it would just be better overall if you did.

ooh metaphors. what exactly does bleeding signify in this case? if its the bleeding of th beta and source from sites, no one could a long long time ago. if people want the source and they have general internet know-how they will get it, same with the beta. the only things thats hurting valve as if bleeding is every day that the source code is out and that hl2 isnt.

 

[YaeSu]

Sickened me that anyone would do that to valve. It's not like they are evil vile punks. They worked very hard on the first HL and it was great. And they did the same for HL2... of course I didn't doubt. Now the story line may be another matter. Looks pretty, but is it HL? I am a huge fan. Still play HL multiplayer from time to time. I even have a signed vinyl poster from the staff at valve. I could be bias, since I love the game and have since the day of it's release.

It's like someone telling you whats in a wrapped box before you open it.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

ok, time for a rare kinda-serious post (write it down!):

so now i have a cable modem! as i'm sure all of you remember, one of the main reasons i have not dld the beta was because i didn't have an internet connection at home. now that i do, can i really maintain until april or whatever? as you all also undoubtedly remember, the only other reason i wouldn't dl the beta is because i don't want to spoil my xmas by peeking at the presents, so to speak. i can still remember the first time i did that.. i felt so guilty and dirty afterwards, like it was my fault or something.. i took a shower and.. oh wait.. that's a whole different story..

anywho, now that i can dl the beta, will my hope for (uncertain) future pleasure be able to outweigh my lust for an immediate but probably lesser pleasure???

stay tuned for updates!
and eat your milk for strong skin, kids!

 

[nsxownzme]

I did download it like the other half of the comminuty, the bigger half that is.

 

[LiBAD]

There is an old saying I have heard all of my life. It is about locks. Wise old men and women say "A lock will only keep an honest person out of your stuff" :naughty: I would like to think we have more control of ourselfs than this. If it isn't yours, don't take it . Not because it is hard to get or that you may get in big trouble for doing it. Don't take it, because YOU know better. Very simple really.

To those of you who have resisted the pull to DL the stolen property of Valve, my hat is off to you. I salute you! It may not make us GOOD people, but it made us better. I know you could have downloaded the stolen property at any time, during the first few days that it hit the internet, but you didn't.

For the ones who did DL the stolen property. I don't believe for one second that it makes you somehow completely evil or bad. I do think, however, that you defined the "wise ol' saying". So when you see a lock on something remember that the lock is on there for you. It is there to keep your type honest. Also some of you try to make yourself feel better by making excuses (Valve is evil...ect) or slamming the people who didn't download the stolen code with BS about them being envious. It isn't true. Why not grow a pair and call it stealing, mistakes are a human fact, at least learn from it.

 

[Dhoco X]

I didn't download the beta because i'm not a sucker and i want to play a REAL game, not a old fckn illegal material.

 

[iamironsam]

Cause I'm too damn lazy?

 

[Dolphin's Eye]

I hope we'll all enjoy the final game.
I head about an unspecified release date, is it true?

 

[tang0]

oops

 

[The Mullinator]

Originally posted by plasmax000

Originally posted by The Mullinator
all thats left for goody two shoes members to do is guilt trip those who downloaded the beta for no reason, the majority of which do it because they are jealous they can't get the beta cause they dont have the means. what a great mask for moral chilvarly.

Umm, no. I didn't download the beta because it's not fair to Valve. There were most likely things left unfinished in there, it's not something they intended to release to the public, and it should have stayed that way.

*looks around*

I don't know about you, but I'm not trying to guilt-trip. I'm just trying to dissuade people from doing what I feel is wrong.

Uhmmm that wasn't me that you quoted.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
thats not a good example because the masses arent igorant of the beta in this case. we can get a good idea from the community and talking with people. i mean cmon we have many hl2 fans on this forum. if we conducted a poll about whether or not people would buy hl2 or not based on the beta. we could get some good evidence there. this is probably the best place anywhere to get the evidence, and its safe to say that just by reading peoples posts after being here for a couple months i know that the majority of people are not stupid about the beta and know the final version will be much better.

Unfortunately, people that frequent the forums do not represent the entire Half-Life 2 fanbase. You could take a poll on this forum, and it could have complete unanimous support, but it still would not necessarily mean that even the majority of people agree with it. A similar situation happened in the 1930s when people conducted a telephone poll about who they were planning on voting for in the upcoming election (it was one that FDR won, I can't remember his opponent). The telephone polls showed a large majority supporting FDR's opponent. However, when the polls were done, telephones were not owned by the majority of the people, so there was a sampling bias in the survey....the sample did not represent the population.

A more computer-like example would be the forums on Gearbox's webpage for Halo. Reading those forums would make you think that the game absolutely did not work. That is because people having problems with the game are over-represented in the forums, because people not having any problems have no reason to visit them.

the truth is you have a very low expectation of people.

True, I am a cynic. Something I developed after spending some time studying people.

 

[alanschu]

Originally posted by poseyjmac
nope, thats not good enough. you're going to have to be specific about how people can steal 'ideas' from the dev tools. this general bullshit won't cut it anymore. get back to me when you are done speaking in useless generalties and have something tangible to talk about. otherwise its just a waste of keyboard strokes.

Ideas about how to develop an SDK. There are SDK's that are complicated, and ones that are very intuitive. Someone looking around in the SDK could consider ideas for their OWN SDK development.


As for "useless" generalities, when access to full full facts are restricted, points must be made in generalities. For example, had you said "I don't think John Carmack would use code from Half-Life 2 because he has more honour," I would have been perfectly happy with that, because it illustrates a more objective approach. It leaves an avenue of falisifiability, because you are stating a hypothesis. It also illustrates that you have considered the possibility that you may not necessarily be correct. However, you stated that he would not do such a thing as fact, which is where outside perceptions of your objectivity begin to wane.

You asked for ways that downloading a beta could be damaging to Valve...I presented some. I assumed when you asked about it, you were looking for an actual discussion about plausible ramifications of a beta, but I guess not. I suppose it has more to do with the inherent bias we have, about how we tend to believe that which we already believe to be true (which makes sense). You clearly believe that a beta in no way can harm Valve, but the concern I have is that you don't seem to have any desire to even consider way a beta could be potentially harmful (correct me if I'm wrong however).

I presented situations where I felt it may be possible for a beta to "damage" Valve in some tangible way. I do not know if any of my situations actually happen though, it is also just speculation. If they were not able to convince, then fine. This discussion is pretty much over then, because I cannot see any change in the trend of me trying to think up situations, with you simply dismissing them.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by alanschu
Ideas about how to develop an SDK. There are SDK's that are complicated, and ones that are very intuitive. Someone looking around in the SDK could consider ideas for their OWN SDK development.


As for "useless" generalities, when access to full full facts are restricted, points must be made in generalities. For example, had you said "I don't think John Carmack would use code from Half-Life 2 because he has more honour," I would have been perfectly happy with that, because it illustrates a more objective approach. It leaves an avenue of falisifiability, because you are stating a hypothesis. It also illustrates that you have considered the possibility that you may not necessarily be correct. However, you stated that he would not do such a thing as fact, which is where outside perceptions of your objectivity begin to wane.

You asked for ways that downloading a beta could be damaging to Valve...I presented some. I assumed when you asked about it, you were looking for an actual discussion about plausible ramifications of a beta, but I guess not. I suppose it has more to do with the inherent bias we have, about how we tend to believe that which we already believe to be true (which makes sense). You clearly believe that a beta in no way can harm Valve, but the concern I have is that you don't seem to have any desire to even consider way a beta could be potentially harmful (correct me if I'm wrong however).

I presented situations where I felt it may be possible for a beta to "damage" Valve in some tangible way. I do not know if any of my situations actually happen though, it is also just speculation. If they were not able to convince, then fine. This discussion is pretty much over then, because I cannot see any change in the trend of me trying to think up situations, with you simply dismissing them.

you misunderstand me, i said an actual download of the beta doesn't hurt valve at all. this is what people were trying to say to others here, but its not true. now after the download, there are exceptions which could hurt valve of course, for instance, someone could play the beta, get pissed at valve for it not working right and go into valves offices and beat them with crowbars. thus the download of the bet led to valve being hurt.

you pulled out of the conversation about the SDK which is wise, as you don't know what is in it, so you can only talk about supposed generalities which prove nothing. this is one weakness you have though when arguing about the supposed damage to valve by this beta, is you don't know whats in it. so its really pointless to continue