I don't think there will be any "real" mirrors in HL2

[Viperidae]

Assuming there is HL2DM, then yes you would see yourself. If there isn't... well... welcome Ghost Freeman.

 

[82ross]

All a mirror is is a brush with a camera in the dead center of one side with the surface of that side displaying what the camera sees.

Its a lot more than that! Looking at the corner of the mirror from tight angles wouldnt work with a single dead centre cam. In postal2 you could piss on the mirrors. Now theres technologyfor ya.

 

[Xrenity]

I guess you can't see yourself on TV's, cause in CSS, in the 'vid test map' if you drop a gun you just see the gun spawning out of nowhere, and you can't see yourself.

 

[Malarkee]

You'd be invisable. Theres no model for Gordon in memory unless you put one there.

I think Gordon should at least have a body.

in the test hardware map in CS:S, I moved the TV that shows the flame room into the flame room.

I got it at an angle so that I could see what it could see, but it could see me.

bullet holes etc appeared but there where no character models for your player only others (I think, there may have been none)

So you'd probably have to activate it so that the camera showed your model and make a single player model

 

[ukfluke]

well in the leake version of HL2 the models of other characters were reflected in water if they were standing in it.

Valve said it wouldnt do the reflection thing with gordon becuase it doesnt work too well. I mean look at D3 you can go into the toilets and look at yourself but it really sucks it just seems like ur watching a little model not actually seeing ur own reflection...

 

[f|uke]

Valve said it wouldnt do the reflection thing with gordon becuase it doesnt work too well.

So it isn't a matter of philosophy,.
Cheers, my uk counterpart

 

[Rafael]

You can't see your arms when driving because you have free view. You would see the arms floating when turning the camera to the sides or down, so to make it look good they should attach the arms to a body, but then you would be seeing your entire body when driving, but not when looking down while you are walking or dying. That would look weirder than not seeing your hands while driving, wouldn't it? It's like, 'hey, I grow a body'.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh darn. I guess I won't be able to inspect Gordon's beard for food crumbs and parasites in the mirror like I was hoping to.

This game is now ruined for me. No longer worth my money.

 

[urseus]

You can't see your arms when driving because you have free view. You would see the arms floating when turning the camera to the sides or down, so to make it look good they should attach the arms to a body, but then you would be seeing your entire body when driving, but not when looking down while you are walking or dying. That would look weirder than not seeing your hands while driving, wouldn't it? It's like, 'hey, I grow a body'.

Exactly. Valve seem to think that not seeing the characters body is imersive. This is wrong. Being ingame and looking down, i want to see my characters shoulders and feet, because i am that character. Its like going to a facy dress party, you have to look and feel the part. I mean looking down while im playing the game and not seeing it pulls me out of the game to reality where im a guy at a keyboard. When im immersed in a game like say thief, i am the character in old england, thus when i look around i have the arms and feet of that character.

Thats why flashpoint was so engrossing, because when you died your head slumped to the side and you saw your arm drop over your body etc. Much more immersive that Gordens floating camera-head of death.

 

[jet jaguar]

Exactly. Valve seem to think that not seeing the characters body is imersive. This is wrong. Being ingame and looking down, i want to see my characters shoulders and feet, because i am that character. Its like going to a facy dress party, you have to look and feel the part. I mean looking down while im playing the game and not seeing it pulls me out of the game to reality where im a guy at a keyboard. When im immersed in a game like say thief, i am the character in old england, thus when i look around i have the arms and feet of that character. Thats why flashpoint was so engrossing, because when you died your head slumped to the side and you saw your arm drop over your body etc. Much more immersive that Gordens floating camera-head of death.

I agree completely. I don't see how seeing a reflection of Gordon would take out the 'immersion' factor. I mean, you've got the scientists, Barney, and Alyx all referring to you as GORDON. The box art has GORDON on it. The rationale behind not showing Gordon's reflection whether it be in water or in a mirror makes zero sense whatsoever. And no, the lack of reflections doesn't ruin the game but for a game that is such a stickler for realism and details it seems like a really stupid thing to fall short on.

Oh and I think SWAT 3 had the earliest, realistic implementation of mirrors in a computer game. Love that game.

 

[Cybernoid]

I mean look at D3 you can go into the toilets and look at yourself but it really sucks it just seems like ur watching a little model not actually seeing ur own reflection...

Well gee wiz, could it possibly be because your character is represented by a model?

 

[Cybernoid]

you can't have real reflective mirrors in a game, theres no such technology thats even conceivable.

It's called ray-tracing, and it can be done with enough processing power (maybe in ten to twenty years, unless something unexpected happens).

 

[john41]

I think the reason most fps' don't allow you to see your feet is so you can't shot them off by accident.

Just a theory…

 

[Matthias]

I'm now convinced that the whole immesion thing is just an excuse. The whole experience is more convincing if you believe your character has a physical form and isn't just a floating camera. The real reason is that reflections of your character look crap.


To have accurate reflections you need to animate every part of the character correctly. You need to be able to see your chest and feet (otherwise when you look down when staning on a mirror you would see the soles of your feet, like in serious sam). Your feet and legs must be animated properly when walking, sidestepping etc. Also your body needs to be properly articulated.

When you stand in front of a mirror and move your head from left to right, your body stays still, you don't rotate on your feet as if you're on a turntable...

 

[Absinthe]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THIS CRAP TO YOU PEOPLE.

Seeing your reflection loses immersion because all you're seeing is a player model with the appropriate movement animations for each key you press. This player model cannot display the fear, amusement, concern, or anger that you may feel as a player. You would lose the very things that create immersion.

For instance, what if you were running down a hallway from Combine forces, scared out of your wits. You turn the corner and are faced with a mirror. You, the player are scared. The player model is... staring at you. Blankly, I might add. He isn't quivering in the knees. He isn't gasping for air. His body language doesn't convey what you are feeling. It's stupid it ruins the immersion.

Gordon is an empty shell that you fill in.

He is not a fleshed-out character.

If they wanted to make him a proper character, then they'd supply with with mannerisms, a voice, and possibly even a 3rd person look at yourself. Hell, even so much as a grunt can give a player an idea as to what kind of role they're playing. The beauty of Half-Life is that you define the character by the way you play.

Now, does this have its limitations? Well, of course it does. Gordon needs to be a guy for the sake of convenience. You need to have hands in the player weapon models, otherwise it looks retarded. But these are acceptable limitations. And if you're going to lose sleep over it, then I suggest you chill out and grab an otter pop.

 

[Matthias]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THIS CRAP TO YOU PEOPLE.

You seem to interpret disagreement with us not understanding your explanation. Please, there is no need to 'explain this crap' to anyone again.

I, personally, would feel more immersed in the game if I saw my own relflection occasionally. It would feel like I had a physical presence, in the computer. Just like if I saw my hands and feet, I could imagine that I had a virtual body.

If I were running away from the combine past a mirror I wouldn't notice that my reflection didn't appear to be scared. I would be concetrating on other things. I would notice a dark shape passing by the mirror, giving me the impresson that i'm really moving through the corridoor.

The whole point about gordon talking is that would be an involenary action, you could contol what he says. That ruins the feeling of being Gordon. Seeing your reflection is different, it moves when you do, you are in control of it.

 

[Absinthe]

I, personally, would feel more immersed in the game if I saw my own relflection occasionally. It would feel like I had a physical presence, in the computer. Just like if I saw my hands and feet, I could imagine that I had a virtual body.

You move around. You knock stuff over. You shoot things. Characters interact with you. You can manipulate your environment. You are vulnerable to projectiles and the laws of gravity. You can see your hands holding your weapon. Is this not an indication of physical presence?

If I were running away from the combine past a mirror I wouldn't notice that my reflection didn't appear to be scared. I would be concetrating on other things. I would notice a dark shape passing by the mirror, giving me the impresson that i'm really moving through the corridoor.

What if you manage to kill the Combine, giving you a chance to look at yourself? What if you quicksave before you go around that corner, just so you can get a good look at yourself before you die? Well, that could be a bit of an issue.

You're actually just supporting my position as to why the nonexistence of mirrors isn't even an issue. You just said that you'd be busy concentrating on other things than the mirror. So why bother with it at all?

The whole point about gordon talking is that would be an involenary action, you could contol what he says. That ruins the feeling of being Gordon. Seeing your reflection is different, it moves when you do, you are in control of it.

Would not the blank stare be involuntary? Or the way Gordon would move? You are looking at an entity that displays none of your thoughts and emotions. That ruins immersion. Go open up one of the player model files in an animator and look at them move.

Your arguments for the existence of mirrors seem weak to me. You want a physical presence, but the game allows you to interact with a variety of environments and characters. You want to be in control, but you're moving your character around using arrow keys, aiming him with a mouse, and firing off rounds with a click of a button. Are these not proof enough that you are (in the game world, of course) a physical living entity? Furthermore, could you enlighten me as to what exactly a mirror would add to the game with the sacrifice of immersion? Oh yeah, I remember. It would be a "kewl" effect.

In real life, I don't need a mirror to prove that I exist. I know I do. I'm sorry if you suffer from some kind of problem when it comes to this stuff.

 

[Homer]

Deus ex had real time mirrors. its not new tech.

 

[Salmonax]

there are real reflections. just look at the water effects and shading like that. of course there will be mirrors, they just didnt want to take a performance hit just for putting a litle reflective scope on the sniper.

And yet Far Cry pulled off just such a thing. Oh well.

 

[She]

You never saw gordan in the last HL game. . . .why is it such a big deal.

who is gordan? :|

anyway.. offcourse source supports mirrors, but im not sure if HL2 will have them...

What if you manage to kill the Combine, giving you a chance to look at yourself? What if you quicksave before you go around that corner, just so you can get a good look at yourself before you die? Well, that could be a bit of an issue.

You know.. HL2 has a ""special" face animation engine...
Alyx can:
look suprised.. scared..Bored, angry, happy, smiling, blahblah..
G-man.. the same..
So gordon can too. (why not)

 

[VoodooMinigeek]

Thats why flashpoint was so engrossing, because when you died your head slumped to the side and you saw your arm drop over your body etc. Much more immersive that Gordens floating camera-head of death.

Word up! Not many people remember or even know about Flashpoint these days! Cheers mate! :cheers:

Some co-workers and myself still fire up Operation Flashpoint multiplayer once in a while. Good times.

 

[Absinthe]

You know.. HL2 has a ""special" face animation engine...
Alyx can:
look suprised.. scared..Bored, angry, happy, smiling, blahblah..
G-man.. the same...

The question is not wether it supports such a feature. I know full well that HL2 boasts amazing facial animation.

But the player model can't tell what the player's feeling. Maybe the player's a bit saddened by an event, but the model shows him as angry. Maybe the player's a tad annoyed, but the model shows him being fully pissed off. Maybe the player's drearily plugging in another hour of HL2 late at night and is slack-jawed and brain-numbed. What face pose are you gonna put on the model? The computer can't tell how the player's feeling, and any attempt to apply a face pose in a given situation results in the bad habit of having the game tell the player how he or she should feel, which is exactly what Valve does not want to do.

So unless you want to spend your time plugging in commands for some kind of basic facial expression to NPC's (effectively accomplishing nothing), I suggest you sit down, accept the fact that you won't be seeing your reflection for some very good reasons, and just play the damn game.

'Kay?

ADDED: Operation Flashpoint had the entire body awareness for the sake of realism. It did, after all, attempt to simulate combat realistically. Also, you played as a developed character with spoken dialogue and scripted actions.

 

[urseus]

Word up! Not many people remember or even know about Flashpoint these days! Cheers mate! :cheers:

Some co-workers and myself still fire up Operation Flashpoint multiplayer once in a while. Good times.

I really pity anyone who hasnt played flashpoint. It is the only game that gives you almost unlimited real life freedom. Its even still pretty. Seeing 7 tanks roll across the plains kicking up dust in a light rain is the most beautiful thing ive seen in a game.

 

[Matthias]

You're actually just supporting my position as to why the nonexistence of mirrors isn't even an issue. You just said that you'd be busy concentrating on other things than the mirror. So why bother with it at all?

You bother because it's the subtle things that maybe you only perceive subconciously that really add to the atmosphere of a game, background noises or subtle mood music. Perhaps not great big mirrors everywhere, but seeing a dark shape reflected in the water as you walked past, or as you approach a shiny surface (I was using the term mirror to mean anything reflective). You see yourself reflected all the time in the real world, you just don't notice it.

My point wasn't that character reflections should be present in HL2 (that wasn't particularly clear), just that in principal seeing your character reflected doesn't (in my opinion) ruin the immersion of the game in fact I believe it adds to it. I agree that the technology isn't advanced enough to pull it off just yet.

Your arguments for the existence of mirrors seem weak to me. You want a physical presence, but the game allows you to interact with a variety of environments and characters. You want to be in control, but you're moving your character around using arrow keys, aiming him with a mouse, and firing off rounds with a click of a button. Are these not proof enough that you are (in the game world, of course) a physical living entity?

Those are plenty proof enough, I just think a few reflections would add to the impression. That's all.

 

[Cole]

Look valve wants it to be like "Your in the game". They want you to feel like your right there not some character model made up by polygons. But YOU.
Adding reflections screws it up because then you arn't seeing you, your seeing someone else...

 

[f|uke]

Look valve wants it to be like "Your in the game". They want you to feel like your right there not some character model made up by polygons. But YOU.
Adding reflections screws it up because then you arn't seeing you, your seeing someone else...

"you're", not "your".

While I believe that the sense that you are in the game is important, you do assume Gordon Freeman's identity. You are Gordon Freeman. I personally think it would increase immersion to look in the mirror and see myself as Gordon, but I do accept that

1) the tech isnt good enough to reall make this impact properly
and
2) Absinthe has a very good point about portraying emotion. Gordon would always look like his stoic self. (the solution? a webcam that can decifer your facial expressions! .. yah im kidding,. but someday, maybe)

 

[Absinthe]

You bother because it's the subtle things that maybe you only perceive subconciously that really add to the atmosphere of a game, background noises or subtle mood music. Perhaps not great big mirrors everywhere, but seeing a dark shape reflected in the water as you walked past, or as you approach a shiny surface (I was using the term mirror to mean anything reflective). You see yourself reflected all the time in the real world, you just don't notice it.

My point wasn't that character reflections should be present in HL2 (that wasn't particularly clear), just that in principal seeing your character reflected doesn't (in my opinion) ruin the immersion of the game in fact I believe it adds to it. I agree that the technology isn't advanced enough to pull it off just yet.

I don't see how seeing a reflection of myself adds **** all. A big dark shape visible in the water or shiny surface... What happens if you get closer? I know that I've been able to make out my face and my movement on these surfaces.

I agree that the technology is not right just yet, which is why you shouldn't bother with mirrors in a game like Half-Life until you can successfully pull off player simulation. Adding mirrors has the potential to screw up so much, and isn't really worth it when you consider the risk involved.

I just think a few reflections would add to the impression. That's all.

I don't need an impression when I'm 100% aware of my presence and control. You're just asking for the superfluous.

 

[jet jaguar]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN THIS CRAP TO YOU PEOPLE.

Seeing your reflection loses immersion because all you're seeing is a player model with the appropriate movement animations for each key you press. This player model cannot display the fear, amusement, concern, or anger that you may feel as a player. You would lose the very things that create immersion.

For instance, what if you were running down a hallway from Combine forces, scared out of your wits. You turn the corner and are faced with a mirror. You, the player are scared. The player model is... staring at you. Blankly, I might add. He isn't quivering in the knees. He isn't gasping for air. His body language doesn't convey what you are feeling. It's stupid it ruins the immersion.

Gordon is an empty shell that you fill in.

He is not a fleshed-out character.

If they wanted to make him a proper character, then they'd supply with with mannerisms, a voice, and possibly even a 3rd person look at yourself. Hell, even so much as a grunt can give a player an idea as to what kind of role they're playing. The beauty of Half-Life is that you define the character by the way you play.

Now, does this have its limitations? Well, of course it does. Gordon needs to be a guy for the sake of convenience. You need to have hands in the player weapon models, otherwise it looks retarded. But these are acceptable limitations. And if you're going to lose sleep over it, then I suggest you chill out and grab an otter pop.

Whatever. The design choice to leave out Gordon's image on reflective surfaces is almost Lucas-like in it's perplexity. Technically it can be done more than adequately, for most people it DOES NOT take away from the immersion factor(rather it adds to it imo), and it's yet another detail that makes the virtual world more believable and realistic just like the physics engine and the bump-mapped textures.