Mr-Fusion
Tank
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,517
- Reaction score
- 1
Pictures or it didn't happen.
Though, actually, without pictures i suppose it probably did happen.
I hate these people...
- Thread starter Combine Hybrid
- Start date
Though, actually, without pictures i suppose it probably did happen.
About a knights armor being all heavy and cluncky all the time is not entirely true. Most of the time a suit of plate weighed the same as a full suit of chain, about 50lbs or so. The heaviest armor in existence was jousting armor, which could weigh up to 90lbs. Plate was also more comfortable if it was made specifiacally for the wearer. As for chain, the hauberk was supported entirely by the shoulders.
Aki
Newbie
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2007
- Messages
- 56
- Reaction score
- 0
They're not so bad unless they're the "Katana cuts through tanks" or "Japan is so much better than our country" types.
Those anger me. :sniper:
Not entirely true? It's not true at all!
Our soldiers (or, at least, my country's soldiers) run around with like, 50lb of shit on their backs.
Knights? They have 50lbs of weight distributed evenly across their body. They've, frankly, got it easier on anything short of falling into a body of water deep enough to drown in.
Oh, and personally, I think a Knight would whup a Samurai even if they were badass uber-fighters. Samurai don't have much in the way of anything capable of hacking through a solid steel breastplate. The Katana is an incredibly sharp blade, but this same sharpness dooms the weapon against an advanced armor - it's capable of hacking flesh and bone easily but metal armor like a knight's would destroy the edge.
Katana's good for butchering Japanese peasants and poorly armed and armored soldiers, but a knight? Pft.
Those anger me. :sniper:
Not entirely true? It's not true at all!
Our soldiers (or, at least, my country's soldiers) run around with like, 50lb of shit on their backs.
Knights? They have 50lbs of weight distributed evenly across their body. They've, frankly, got it easier on anything short of falling into a body of water deep enough to drown in.
Oh, and personally, I think a Knight would whup a Samurai even if they were badass uber-fighters. Samurai don't have much in the way of anything capable of hacking through a solid steel breastplate. The Katana is an incredibly sharp blade, but this same sharpness dooms the weapon against an advanced armor - it's capable of hacking flesh and bone easily but metal armor like a knight's would destroy the edge.
Katana's good for butchering Japanese peasants and poorly armed and armored soldiers, but a knight? Pft.
Thunderclap
Spy
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2006
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 0
To the OP, I sincerely apologize for hijacking his thread. Gentlemen, I try to be a polite and civil board member, always trying to reach consensus and respectful of other people's opinions.
Unfortunately, we have reached perhaps the one topic that I...feel rather strongly about. Yes *ahem*. So let's whip out the big guns and get this on.
First, before you post anything in regards to this debate, read this:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
An excellent, well-reasoned, unbiased debate. Another thing Aki touched on was cultural interchange. The samurai fought only other Japanese, and their way of war became increasingly refined and ritualistic until muskets were brought over by the Dutch and Portuguese. The knight, however, had ample opportunity to fight myriad foes, Moors to the south, Saracens to the east, and Danish reavers from the north. Hell, if he was a Teutonic knight, he could well have dueled with Germans, Danes, Poles, Russians, Egyptians, Turks, Christ it's quite possible he could have crossed blades with the Golden Horde at one point.
The knight learned from these battles and constantly augmented himself, unlike the samurai, who slipped into very specific, honorbound duels and could well be thrown by this smelly foreigner calling himself a 'knight'. He would probably be most baffled by the knight's shield, which was not used in personal samurai combat. A lot of amateur people will think "Oh, well he can just slip around it".
Umm, no.
You see, behind the shield, right, there's this thing called an arm. It can move. Quite fast when death is on the line. Most the samurai's blows are going to be thunking into the wooden shield, where it could well catch (not cleave through like the 'katanas cut tank armor' crowd will probably shout) and give the knight a shot at the undefended samurai. Like Darkside55 said, the samurai was supposed to make 1000 cuts a day, most probably didn't. Also, to throw an equally badass number in your face was the fact that a proper knight was in constant training for nothing but war since age 7, and would undergo a 14 year regimen. Every knight underwent this training, although, similar to the 1000 cuts thing, the strenuousness of that training for each individual knight varied wildly.
On a completely unrelated and biased note, I am unaware of any badass samurai shouts except that seen in Akira Kurosawa films, which is generally composed of that peculiar warbling cry (which I admit, is pretty cool). The knight however, has access to Psalm 144, quite possibly the most badass battle hymn ever written, doubly so if he starts singing it in Latin or German, the mother and father tongues of Europe. You know, the one that runs:
Sadly, I'd have him sing Ezekiel 25:17 from Pulp Fiction, but that's canonically inaccurate. The actual Ezekiel 25:17 is only the last verse (and you shall know my name is the lord etc.) Those are all real Bible verses Quentin Tarantino used, but their stitched together from a half-dozen different books. Back on topic.
Katanas really are incredibly sharp, perhaps the keenest blades in existence second only to the obsidian clubs wielded by the Aztecs. Both will rip through flesh and muscle like cheesecloth. The Aztecs' obsidian weapons, along with their incredible edge, were known for another reason: the fact that they shattered upon connecting with the steel breastplates of the Spaniards. Now, the katana's not going to do that, but it will quickly lose it's edge, even against mail.
This I think is what the knight would look like, if we wanted to field someone the samurai had a chance at beating. Ditch the helmet because that would hinder his vision and senses in a footman's duel. He would be wearing a chain coif underneath. His shield would be slightly smaller (that shield seems to be a hybrid heater/kite shield), but aside from that, that guy's pretty equivalent to the samurai.
And guess what, that armor there? It weighs almost the same as standard foot samurai's armor. None of that 'elf versus lumbering ogre' crap I've seen people on other forums ejaculating about. That shield will slow him down (it's a heavy sucker as you might guess), but it will also make him much harder to hit than the samurai, who must rely solely on parrying. Neither side is likely to try and dodge, because all that armor does indeed slow you down. Easier to block it than avoid it.
Reason I chose that guy is if we threw our doughty samurai up against someone like this:
That heroic Japanese will be down and out pretty damn fast.
ETA: You know, in all honesty, I can see a Gothic knight taking down the samurai in three moves. He simply catches the katana with his heavy plate gauntlet. While the katana will shear through much of the steel, I doubt it will hurt enough to make the knight let go, let alone cut off his hand. The knight then knees the samurai in the crotch (if he does it right he can get in between the haidate and beneath the kusazuri), then jams his sword through the samurai's eye at his leisure, circumnavigating the skull's defenses and killing the samurai.
Unfortunately, we have reached perhaps the one topic that I...feel rather strongly about. Yes *ahem*. So let's whip out the big guns and get this on.
First, before you post anything in regards to this debate, read this:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
An excellent, well-reasoned, unbiased debate. Another thing Aki touched on was cultural interchange. The samurai fought only other Japanese, and their way of war became increasingly refined and ritualistic until muskets were brought over by the Dutch and Portuguese. The knight, however, had ample opportunity to fight myriad foes, Moors to the south, Saracens to the east, and Danish reavers from the north. Hell, if he was a Teutonic knight, he could well have dueled with Germans, Danes, Poles, Russians, Egyptians, Turks, Christ it's quite possible he could have crossed blades with the Golden Horde at one point.
The knight learned from these battles and constantly augmented himself, unlike the samurai, who slipped into very specific, honorbound duels and could well be thrown by this smelly foreigner calling himself a 'knight'. He would probably be most baffled by the knight's shield, which was not used in personal samurai combat. A lot of amateur people will think "Oh, well he can just slip around it".
Umm, no.
You see, behind the shield, right, there's this thing called an arm. It can move. Quite fast when death is on the line. Most the samurai's blows are going to be thunking into the wooden shield, where it could well catch (not cleave through like the 'katanas cut tank armor' crowd will probably shout) and give the knight a shot at the undefended samurai. Like Darkside55 said, the samurai was supposed to make 1000 cuts a day, most probably didn't. Also, to throw an equally badass number in your face was the fact that a proper knight was in constant training for nothing but war since age 7, and would undergo a 14 year regimen. Every knight underwent this training, although, similar to the 1000 cuts thing, the strenuousness of that training for each individual knight varied wildly.
On a completely unrelated and biased note, I am unaware of any badass samurai shouts except that seen in Akira Kurosawa films, which is generally composed of that peculiar warbling cry (which I admit, is pretty cool). The knight however, has access to Psalm 144, quite possibly the most badass battle hymn ever written, doubly so if he starts singing it in Latin or German, the mother and father tongues of Europe. You know, the one that runs:
Blessed be the LORD my strength,
which teacheth my hands to war,
and my fingers to fight:
my goodness, and my fortress;
my high tower, and my deliverer;
my shield, and he in whom I trust;
who subdueth my people under me.
which teacheth my hands to war,
and my fingers to fight:
my goodness, and my fortress;
my high tower, and my deliverer;
my shield, and he in whom I trust;
who subdueth my people under me.
Sadly, I'd have him sing Ezekiel 25:17 from Pulp Fiction, but that's canonically inaccurate. The actual Ezekiel 25:17 is only the last verse (and you shall know my name is the lord etc.) Those are all real Bible verses Quentin Tarantino used, but their stitched together from a half-dozen different books. Back on topic.
Katanas really are incredibly sharp, perhaps the keenest blades in existence second only to the obsidian clubs wielded by the Aztecs. Both will rip through flesh and muscle like cheesecloth. The Aztecs' obsidian weapons, along with their incredible edge, were known for another reason: the fact that they shattered upon connecting with the steel breastplates of the Spaniards. Now, the katana's not going to do that, but it will quickly lose it's edge, even against mail.
This I think is what the knight would look like, if we wanted to field someone the samurai had a chance at beating. Ditch the helmet because that would hinder his vision and senses in a footman's duel. He would be wearing a chain coif underneath. His shield would be slightly smaller (that shield seems to be a hybrid heater/kite shield), but aside from that, that guy's pretty equivalent to the samurai.
And guess what, that armor there? It weighs almost the same as standard foot samurai's armor. None of that 'elf versus lumbering ogre' crap I've seen people on other forums ejaculating about. That shield will slow him down (it's a heavy sucker as you might guess), but it will also make him much harder to hit than the samurai, who must rely solely on parrying. Neither side is likely to try and dodge, because all that armor does indeed slow you down. Easier to block it than avoid it.
Reason I chose that guy is if we threw our doughty samurai up against someone like this:
That heroic Japanese will be down and out pretty damn fast.
ETA: You know, in all honesty, I can see a Gothic knight taking down the samurai in three moves. He simply catches the katana with his heavy plate gauntlet. While the katana will shear through much of the steel, I doubt it will hurt enough to make the knight let go, let alone cut off his hand. The knight then knees the samurai in the crotch (if he does it right he can get in between the haidate and beneath the kusazuri), then jams his sword through the samurai's eye at his leisure, circumnavigating the skull's defenses and killing the samurai.
Darkside55
The Freeman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 12,083
- Reaction score
- 93
Thunder. Look, man, I got to the point in your post where you said, "read the Arma" and I just stopped. I've gotta hug you. I have to hug you, like, right now man.
Ok I'm going to go back to reading the rest of your post now. Why am I typing this?
Ok I'm going to go back to reading the rest of your post now. Why am I typing this?
If you wanna test if they really are awesome, the next time you cough, cough"NANKING". A lot of young Japanese apparently have no knowledge of the warcrimes of Japan. Anything to pester the tourists... I mean Japanese!
By the way, seems that the knight really would pwn the samurai.
Fliko
Newbie
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Messages
- 2,708
- Reaction score
- 0
Okay, first of all! It doesn't matter who is more well trained.
We're talking a Samurai and a Knight equally trained. The outcome of who would win should be decided by fighting styles, and equipment (Both at equal quality).
Okay, how about Ninjas vs Knights, 'cause it is fact that Ninja's are HIGHLY TRAINED!.
Naturally the Ninja would have an element of surprise and for old time sakes, the Knight would be unmounted, probably in 15th Century Gothic Armor?
Ninja would be in the simple black clothing.
Both people would be well equiped with what they are naturally equipped with.
Setting would be at Night, in say a Forest?
We're talking a Samurai and a Knight equally trained. The outcome of who would win should be decided by fighting styles, and equipment (Both at equal quality).
Okay, how about Ninjas vs Knights, 'cause it is fact that Ninja's are HIGHLY TRAINED!.
Naturally the Ninja would have an element of surprise and for old time sakes, the Knight would be unmounted, probably in 15th Century Gothic Armor?
Ninja would be in the simple black clothing.
Both people would be well equiped with what they are naturally equipped with.
Setting would be at Night, in say a Forest?
Darkside55
The Freeman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 12,083
- Reaction score
- 93
Yes, and in most cases the knight would win. Everything being equal, terrain being flat, both warriors unmounted and using their respective weaponry and gear.
The ninja would have absolutely no way to fight a knight. I tell you this, any ninja who wins against a knight wins out of a combination of sheer determination to live and a gross amount of luck.
Ninjas being highly trained, highly skilled warriors is even more of a farce than the samurai. Most ninja "clans" were nothing more than groups of thugs, precursors to the yakuza. These ninja spread stories about their famed prowess in order to get jobs.
While I acknowledge there were actual ninja groups and villages where ninja were raised, these are like the master swordsmen samurai: few and far between, and definately not the norm. However I do know that some of these villages existed and I am familiar with some of the techniques they used to train, as well as how they conducted their missions (such as tactics, armaments, etc.). And I can almost guarantee you that a ninja, coming up against a knight, would exercise discretion; that is, he'd know well enough to stay the hell out of the knight's way. Ninjas never even fought samurai if it could be avoided, and then you see this heavily armored, gleaming man with a sword as tall as his shoulder marching through a forest at night? All signs scream, "Stay away."
Ninjas wear blue, by the way. Black is easily seen at night. I don't know where the black-suited ninja stereotype came from but black is one of the worst colors you can wear at night if you're trying to conceal yourself, because you're darker than all surrounding shadows.
ESPECIALLY in moonlight, out in the open.
Combine Hybrid
Tank
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2004
- Messages
- 2,335
- Reaction score
- 5
ninjas does not fight directly combat unless they really have to, which in the end, getting themselves killed.
in old days, ninjas were cowards. At least, that's why my japanese friend told me
in old days, ninjas were cowards. At least, that's why my japanese friend told me
Darkside55
The Freeman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 12,083
- Reaction score
- 93
Bingo.
They talked big so they could get money. Everything you've heard of a ninja totally owning someone and flipping out and doing cool stuff? Written by a ninja.
They talked big so they could get money. Everything you've heard of a ninja totally owning someone and flipping out and doing cool stuff? Written by a ninja.
Thunderclap
Spy
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2006
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 0
"Equally trained" is crap. We're taking the average 13th-century knight vs. the average 16th-century samurai, and debating who'd win. If they were equally well-trained, well then I could just as easily pit the average Soviet strelok versus the average blind man in an open field. You think the strelok would win? Wrong! The sniper and the cripple are equally trained, so it's an even match! No. Just no. The only concession to this is imagining the knight in mail, because if he were in plate there would be no contest.
And now we're talking about ninjas? Freaking ninjas? Oh forget this, I've nothing further to contribute after Darkside. A ninja would not enter into an equal fight. Simple as that. He would refuse to participate if the duel was on equal footing. If we're fighting a ninja, well then good Sir John of Doe says 'to the Ovens of Perdition with this heathen knave, I have better things to do than root around in the dark', shouts for backup, and this guy's going to swing through the open window on a rope:
You played the ninja card and opened the can of worms. I'm not responsible for what happens now.
And now we're talking about ninjas? Freaking ninjas? Oh forget this, I've nothing further to contribute after Darkside. A ninja would not enter into an equal fight. Simple as that. He would refuse to participate if the duel was on equal footing. If we're fighting a ninja, well then good Sir John of Doe says 'to the Ovens of Perdition with this heathen knave, I have better things to do than root around in the dark', shouts for backup, and this guy's going to swing through the open window on a rope:
You played the ninja card and opened the can of worms. I'm not responsible for what happens now.
Bad^Hat
The Freeman
- Joined
- May 13, 2003
- Messages
- 19,983
- Reaction score
- 530
Yeah but what specs are they? Equally geared? No pots?
Shit, even in this lame example, the warrior in plate always pwns the face off the stealthy rogue
I'll get me coat.
Fliko
Newbie
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Messages
- 2,708
- Reaction score
- 0
Alright, Shadow specced Priest against Knight...Yeah but what specs are they? Equally geared? No pots?
Shit, even in this lame example, the warrior in plate always pwns the face off the stealthy rogue
Darkside55
The Freeman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 12,083
- Reaction score
- 93
Warlock owns them both.
Darkside55
The Freeman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 12,083
- Reaction score
- 93
I fear no lich, demilich, or archlich, for I possess the Sword of Kas!
oh god I am such a nerd
oh god I am such a nerd
Flyingdebris
Tank
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 2,245
- Reaction score
- 5
I was once president of the anime club ay my art college for a couple of months a few years ago.
I was never full blown into weeaboo culture, but i really did like collecting anime up to that point, however I had every last vestige of weeaboo scared out of me. Being surrounded by mouth breathing rejects who's lives revolved completely around anime, coupled with the realization that most anime storylines are total crap or about super powered teenagers, finally made me go, "i quit."
Worst of all were the art students who could not grow past drawing in crappy anime style, then claiming it was their style. They were the saddest cases.
I was never full blown into weeaboo culture, but i really did like collecting anime up to that point, however I had every last vestige of weeaboo scared out of me. Being surrounded by mouth breathing rejects who's lives revolved completely around anime, coupled with the realization that most anime storylines are total crap or about super powered teenagers, finally made me go, "i quit."
Worst of all were the art students who could not grow past drawing in crappy anime style, then claiming it was their style. They were the saddest cases.
Thunderclap
Spy
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2006
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 0
Oh I've had those before! I recall them being pretty tasty. You need a glass of milk on hand though to appreciate them fully.
K e r b e r o s
Newbie
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Messages
- 3,227
- Reaction score
- 0
Yes, I too, hate Japonophiles.
They also have an anime superiority complex that you won't want to challenge unless you're armed with a foot long steel crowbar.
They also have an anime superiority complex that you won't want to challenge unless you're armed with a foot long steel crowbar.