I just got hired by Steel Monkeys!

[blackeye]

Personally I wouldnt take the job, Instead I would finish your degree. The dropout rate for the game industry is very high. Game companies like Valve or Ubisoft might not care to much if you have a degree or not but if you where ever going to get a job outside the industry say in an IT department that degree is going to make the difference between them throwing your resume in the garbage or placing it in the stack to look at latter along with the other potential candidates. A lot of people coming out of Post Secondary these days have a degree in Computer sciences and they wont even take a look at you now if you dont have a degree. The game industry is different in that your portfolio is your major playing card but in the IT industry that degree is your playing card.

I speak from experience as me and my mom had a discussion about this when I told her I didnt want to go to university. My mom didnt go to University either she had to start at the bottom of the food chain when she was 17, she eventualy worked her way up the career ladder and became an executive, the company paid to send her to Harvard, Stanford and Ontario School of Business, Befor she left to work at a startup telecom company she was Executive Vice President of the whole company. She says she could have got their 15 years earlier had she had a degree. Sure it is still possible to do as well as my mom did, but Its going to be extremly hard to do so, not everyone is going to be given the chance my mom was given. Im sure other companies could be different in that they might hire you without a degree but you arent going to get the jump start a university degree will give you, when millions of dollars are at stake in the company they are less willing to hire someone without a degree then they are someone who has got one. I was also told that she finds that the people who have college degree have more practical skills then the people with university degree, but the people with university degree succeed better over the lifetime and can advance much further.

And personally I believe it is a myth that Game companies dont care if you have a degree or not. If two potential candidates both have extremely good portfolios and one of them has a degree and the other one doesnt which one do you think they are going to pick?

 

[Foxtrot]

You don't get paid for overtime on a sallary, but in theory you would get a raise, but not if overtime is required.

 

[The Dark Elf]

You don't get paid for overtime on a sallary, but in theory you would get a raise, but not if overtime is required.

Hmmm.. well I dunno about working in burgerking But _everytime_ I've done overtime in a job, be it a permanent position (+18 months) or contract work. I've been paid extra for it. Time and a half on weekdays, double on weekends. double and a half or triple on all nighters. Only time I haven't got extra for overtime has been pure freelance work, since overtime doesn't exist in that, you quote your time to begin with.

So whoever your working for saw you coming, making you work overtime for free heh.

 

[Foxtrot]

Hmmm.. well I dunno about working in burgerking But _everytime_ I've done overtime in a job, be it a permanent position (+18 months) or contract work. I've been paid extra for it. Time and a half on weekdays, double on weekends. double and a half or triple on all nighters. Only time I haven't got extra for overtime has been pure freelance work, since overtime doesn't exist in that, you quote your time to begin with.

So whoever your working for saw you coming, making you work overtime for free heh.

Were you paid on a sallary though? Working on weekends might get you paid more.

 

[JJungels]

I work for Valve and the decision is up to you but I would say stay with college. You are only a sophmore, you have a lot of time to make it in the gaming industry. I dont know about anyone else but when I was in college the last thing I wanted to do was pack up and move to Russia. If anything, try and get an internship over the summer with a company in America, that way you will be getting experience and the feel for what the game designer world is like without having to learn to speak a different language and bear the -30 degree tempeture of Eastern Europe.

Also with people saying you can learn more in the industry then you can in college, true, but Steel Monkeys seems like a young company(do they have any games out?) and I am sure they dont have to many old veterans of the game who can teach you that much.

So if you want my opinion stay in school, try and get an internship and if the oppertunity comes up to get a comfortable seat with a GOOD reputable company(Valve, Bioware, Ubisoft) take it.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Were you paid on a sallary though? Working on weekends might get you paid more.

Yep, the contract work, while technically freelance its just easier for them to pay you the conventional way when its a long term contract, and easier for you since you don't have to deal with all the taxes and fun stuff like that (different in the US AFAIK, we only have to do our own taxes and things when self employed/freelancing), the only real difference between contract work and a permanent job is knowing for sure when the job will finish. And the permanent work is just a regular job except doing cool stuff. Everyone I've worked with was the same, paid extra for any overtime they did, which was the motivation for doing it.

I wouldn't do overtime for any reason unless I was paid. They'll just take advantage of you then with lines like "well you did overtime for no pay before so why not this time?" and you don't want to get into that position. They can't fire you for not doing overtime unless its in a contract saying you have to if asked, but even then, they are supposed to pay you for it. I'd also avoid overtime if being paid meant cash in hand, while thats fine with just freelance work, while in a "full time" job its a little more complex, the money has to come from somewhere, and being cash in hand is likely not including tax deductions, so questions start to be asked and you can get stung for a lot of money, so yeah its either above board or not atall in those cases.

 

[^Ben]

I work for Valve

Uh-oh prepared to be spammed because you said you work for valve

What position do you hold in valve? Scratch that, the stalker that is me just did a quick search on valves website.

3D Artist / Animator / Game Designer

---

I didn't realise it was in russia, I would reconsider because if you are good enough then you can probably get an internship like Jakob said.

 

[EVIL]

The dropout rate for the game industry is very high. Game companies like Valve or Ubisoft might not care to much if you have a degree or not but if you where ever going to get a job outside the industry say in an IT department that degree is going to make the difference between them throwing your resume in the garbage or placing it in the stack to look at latter along with the other potential candidates.

Who would want to work in the gamebizz, then get out and work in it? The gamebizz is a passion, not some fluke you do for a year and then move on, why do you think the bizz is so damn small, its because every single member is super dedicated to their job, its their dream, and you don’t quit your dream after a couple of years

I myself Dream of working as a concept artist in the game industry, I wouldn’t know what else to do besides working in that bizz, If I cant work in the game industry, I’ll prop ably kill my self, (seriously). You really have to be one serious dedicated mother****er to even get into the industry, and once your in there isn’t really any other option. You can’t really do all that work to get in and then just quit and go cook! If you would ask every single artist, programmer whatever in the bizz if there was anything they would want to do rather then working in the bizz they wouldn’t know what they would say. Because most of them worked hard to get in there and it’s their dream to work with a bunch of dedicated nut heads and build games for fans. They are addicted to their job, it’s like being a rock artist.

It’s nothing like being a model where you grow out, once you reach a specific age. In that bizz yeah, finish school first so you have a backup. But for most people in the gamebizz they wouldn’t know what to do if they couldn’t work in this industry.

And personally I believe it is a myth that Game companies dont care if you have a degree or not. If two potential candidates both have extremely good portfolios and one of them has a degree and the other one doesnt which one do you think they are going to pick?

Well its not, I went to a Game development workshop a year back and they specifically said that a good portfolio is ALOT more important then having a degree. An example was made with it “where a good artist was never asked what degree they had but once, and that time they only asked where he went to school, and he said "I dropped out" and they didn’t asked any further questions, because they don’t really care!”. What does a degree add to your work? Nothing! If your portfolio is good then that’s it.

But the most important thing next to a good portfolio is TEAMWORK and CHARACTER. If you can’t work in a team then your ****ed. they want you to be a good work spirit, they want you to be a cool guy to hang out with. A pleasant guy to talk to. Because in the end your working long hours behind a pc, in a room with other people doing the exact same thing. All nutballs who are fun! “If you can’t give your opinion, speak your mind, be a pleasant guy to hang around with and work hard and are great in teamwork, then this job isn’t cut out for you, character elements and teamwork are a lot more important then a degree in this kind of job.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Who would want to work in the gamebiz, then get out and work in it? The gamebiz is a passion, not some fluke you do for a year and then move on, why do you think the bizz is so damn small, its because every single member is super dedicated to their job, its their dream, and you dont quit your dream after a couple of years

I myself Dream of working as a conceptartist in the game industry, I wouldnt know what else to do besides working in that bizz, If I cant work in the game industry, I'l proppably kill my self, (seriously). You really have to be one serious dediated mother****er to even get into the industry, and once your in there isnt really any other option. you cant really do all that work to get in and then just quit and go cook! If you would ask every single artist, programmer whatever in the bizz if there was anything they would want to do rather then working in the bizz they wouldnt know what they would say. because most of them worked hard to get in there and its their dream to work with a bunch of dedicated nutheads and build games for fans. they are addicted to their job, its like being a rock artist.

its nothing like modeling where you grow out once you reach a specific age., in that bizz yeah, finish school first so you have a backup. but for msot peaople in the game bizz they wouldnt know what to do if they couldnt work in this industry

Even though the film, tv and games industries aren't as much fun as they seem (its very very hard work) and it can be stressful and depending on the project downright boring sometimes. And redoing the same thing over and over because someone else can't makeup their mind what they want or the coder keeps wanting to change things. And for those just starting out there's little to no recognition for what they do beyond "that'll do for now, now do something else like that"..

It still beats any other kind of job I can think of. I can't think of anything beyond these three where you get to play with expensive equipment and software all day and create new worlds and characters and make stories come alive, ending up having well known celebrities as friends and wondering why people get so worked up over meeting famous people when thats your average day, traveling all over, living in all kinds of towns, learning something new everyday and generally being a grown up kid as long as you want without it being weird.

And even though I took a break, I'd still not want to go do something else like data input or call center. Waste of a life. I'd not kill myself over it though like you would But I would be a bit annoyed, I'd never giveup and go into some generic job permanently though, maybe for extra cash now and again if things got slow, but never for good.

Well its not, I went to a gamedev workshop a year back and they specificly said that a good portfolio is ALOT more importand then having a degree. and example was made with it where a good artist was never asked what degree they had but once, and that time they only asked where he went to school, and he said "I dropped out" and they didnt asked any further questions, because they dont really care! what does a degree add to your work. nothing if your portfolio is good then thats it, they dont need more. next to a good portfoio comes TEAMWORK. if you cant work in a team then your ****ed. they want you to bee a good work spirit, they want you to be a cool guy to hang out with, a plesant guy to talk to. because in the end, your working long hours behind a pc in a room with other pople doing the same thing. all nutballs who are fun! if you cant give your oppinions, speak your mind, be a pleasant guy to hang around with and work hard and are great in teamwork, then this job isnt cut out for you, character elements are alot more importand then a degree in this kind of job.

Thats true, only time I've _ever_ been asked for my grades was my first real job out of school, and they didn't much care, was more a case of asking for the sake of it. Besides its pointless asking, nobody actually checks up on what grades you got anyway, so you can make any old shit up. And providing you can actually do what you claim to be able to do it doesn't matter either way, grades mean nothing really, anyone can work really hard the night before an exam and get the highest grades, doesn't mean they know what their doing, just that they got lucky. I've never asked anyone for their grades neither, if they can do the work and follow instructions with the final result being on time and how I expected it, I wouldn't care if they'd never been to school.

Also if it was a choice between some guy who could do the work well and had a bunch of amazing grades n stuff.. vs some guy who could do just as good work but had experience in the real world. I'd pick him, not the college guy who'd still be wet behind the ears and not have a clue what a real job in the industry is like. (That choice is nothing to do with me not much liking students I swear )

 

[EVIL]

I'd not kill myself over it though like you would

well .. hihi :angel: that was more of an example to press on the point that for most guys in the bizz thay can't vision themselves doing anything else.

 

[The Dark Elf]

well .. hihi :angel: that was more of an example to press on the point that for most guys in the bizz thay can't vision themselves doing anything else.

Thats cause we know we're onto a good thing, and the sheer thought of working in a call center, counting the minutes until we can go home and count the minutes until another terrible horrible day at a call center begins again.. sends our blood cold. It's just, the dullness of it all.. I'd rather work on a football game than in a factory or call center or shop (and I can't stand the thought of having to work on any sports related games, (minus sensible soccer but I didn't know any better back then lol), walked out of Gremlin years ago when I realised the job would involve just sports games)

Its like admitting we need to grow up and can't play with our toys anymore AND WE WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN!!!!

 

[The Dark Elf]

Oh and you've always got something interesting to say if someone asks "so what did you do at work today?"

industry reply "Built a castle, sent an army of monsters to destroy it, before flying through the clouds in a victorian airship and then blowing up London with martian fighting machines"

compared to the call center guy reply

"answered phones.. and this one guy, he got really nasty to me so I hung up and then my team leader, who I hate. Told me off and gave me a warning, so I went to have a smoke but only had 2 minutes to smoke it and the pay was taken off my wage when I was a second late"

or the data input guy

"I inputted lots of numbers into an old 486 in the office today, like I did yesterday and every day before that, and just like I will do tomorrow"

or the burgerking guy

"my hair got greesy, we spat in some food, I got a warning for stealing icecream even though everyone else does it too"

or the warehouse guy

"I moved boxes, then we whistled at a cute girl who walked past, then we talked about football and how drunk we'd got last night on our minimum wage"

or the garfield_ reply

"I saw this girl........"

 

[CrazyHarij]

So what exactly do you guys work with in the industry?
What did you have to do to get hired at such an early age?

All this sounds very tempting

 

[The Dark Elf]

So what exactly do you guys work with in the industry?
What did you have to do to get hired at such an early age?

All this sounds very tempting

Well you mostly work with whatever the studio is using, hence why I had to learn all the package (always a good idea anyway, best tool for the right job n all that) no sense in causing trouble trying to use something different when everything is geared towards another set of applications. like lots of inhouse software too. Freelancing you can often use whatever you like if all the client wants is the finished article and not the master files for use later, and I'll usually swap around depending on what I'm going to do.

A lot of the time, especially on the bigger jobs you often don't even know what your working on, or even see the finished article as you just work on a small part of it, someone else does another part and so on. But I don't really like working like that, promotes the whole go in, do the work, get paid, move on and never care what the job was, you end up with years of work you'll never know about. Which sucks when it comes to listing previous projects and showing off to employers and clients. Not only that but its not much fun, very impersonal, more like a sweatshop. ILM was like that. The smaller projects and studios, like Zoic, edenfx, DD, Area51, ARk, most of the games developers and so on with a smaller but more talented across the board group of people, those are the best kind of places to work IMO. You get to see things developing and even doing a scene on your own, swapping over with others on different projects rather than sitting there just modeling or just texturing or just animating, which is still better than a callcenter but it can be boring after 6 months And you get a better chance of learning new tricks from others, whereas a larger job you might go days and not see anyone, except the odd pointless TV crew making some random documentry, you just hide and let them find the guy in the glasses and long curly hair, they seem to like making CG guys out to all be like that

As for starting young, I got hired just on the back of a few gigeresque drawings I'd done in Dpaint on the Amiga, they happened to be about to convert Alien Breed and it was really just pure luck. If they'd been about to do a cartoon type game, things would have turned out very differently. And I'd have probably become a horrible student type instead So yeah, I didn't do anything special, in my case it was luck pure and simple. I'd have certainly not even looked at me twice if I'd shown me them now

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

That's quite interesting, because I was doing a similar kind of thing on my Atari ST at the time. I just never did anything useful with it.

I forced my "break" into the industry. I quit my IT job with the intention of getting into the games industry. That was in 2000 - it took me over 2 years to get into it with 3000 AD working on the Battlecruiser games. Since then, I've done work for a few small companies, mainly on mobile stuff while working on the overall design for my game - which is now, finally, going into production.

A few things that you may find useful:

1) It's not what you know, it's who you know. Knowing people already in the industry is one of the best ways to avoid getting "filed"

2) Experience trumps Education every time.

3) The games industry is a horrible, volatile mess. Unless you work for one of the few companies that can choose their own destiny, there's no such thing as job security.

4) You can make far more money outside the games industry than in it.

5) Never burn your bridges. The artist that you piss off today could be your manager a year down the line (not that artists are management material... /me grins at Fenric)

 

[Sui]

This is actually a pretty interesting read. I have to admit, working in the games industry would be fun, because there's such a wide variation of jobs to do. I mean there are artists, coders, programmers, script writers, directors, kids that bring everyone else coffee... there's a place for everyone. I hope to be a writer when I'm older... not really sure what to do past that though. Maybe I'll end up working for some crummy magazine with a shit wage and boring tasks, or maybe the script for Half-Life 4 could have my name stamped on the front

 

[mortiz]

Problem is when you're pushing 35 and you've got a wife and a couple of kids, working 100 hour weeks isn't as appealing as it was when you were 25 so most of the experience in the industry leaves quite early.

Though I'm sure it's one of the funnest industries to work in.

 

[^Ben]

to get into it with 3000 AD working on the Battlecruiser games.

Derek Smart :O

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Yeah. Less said about that, the better. See #5 above.

 

[The Dark Elf]

That's quite interesting, because I was doing a similar kind of thing on my Atari ST at the time. I just never did anything useful with it.

I just sent it to them with a whole "meh might aswell" attitude to it, never actually expected anything to come of it.

5) Never burn your bridges. The artist that you piss off today could be your manager a year down the line (not that artists are management material... /me grins at Fenric)

I'm entirely different in that role. Not so forgiving if im paying someone and no problem firing people hehe

Problem is when you're pushing 35 and you've got a wife and a couple of kids, working 100 hour weeks isn't as appealing as it was when you were 25 so most of the experience in the industry leaves quite early.

Though I'm sure it's one of the funnest industries to work in.

well by then if your still in the industry you've done well for yourself and you can pretty much pick and choose jobs at that point, do more work from home (freelancing especially) and spend more time with family.. I know a lot of CG guys who are in their 30's/40's and the wife goes to work while they work from home for most of the year and look after the kids. and seem very happy.

 

[mortiz]

well by then if your still in the industry you've done well for yourself and you can pretty much pick and choose jobs at that point, do more work from home (freelancing especially) and spend more time with family.. I know a lot of CG guys who are in their 30's/40's and the wife goes to work while they work from home for most of the year and look after the kids. and seem very happy.

To be fair though most developers want their most experienced staff to work as hard as the rest. If you haven't got your most experienced staff on board you'll never meet milestones. They work them right out of the industry, as has been proven over and over again. You just had to read the Quality of Life paper published by the IGDA or look at what was said at the GDC.

 

[The Dark Elf]

To be fair though most developers want their most experienced staff to work as hard as the rest. If you haven't got your most experienced staff on board you'll never meet milestones. They work them right out of the industry, as has been proven over and over again. You just had to read the Quality of Life paper published by the IGDA or look at what was said at the GDC.

People really have to stop taking what the GDC say as gospel.

If you want to keep the pro's, you treat them better or they can very very easily go somewhere else. As I say, pick and choose what you want to do at that point. You treat them right and you know they'll produce the required work to their high standards on time.

You can throw newbies around all you want, there's always plenty to fill their boots and every single one of them is expendable and very easily replaced, there's always gonna be someone else wanting a break in the industry who'll work for peanuts and do what their told. The pro's are a different league and in many cases run the show anyway, either running whole departments or their own studios, like those I mentioned previously. You don't hire a pro to do a beginners job.

 

[mortiz]

People really have to stop taking what the GDC say as gospel.

Well the speakers at the GDC are some of the most experienced people in the industry.

Remember, everyone starts off as a 'newb', if you can't even keep the newbs then there's no way in hell your going to keep your experienced staff, if you get any.

If a game company is struggling to meet a milestone or is in the crunch phase I find it highly unlikely that they'll work their new staff to the bone but let their experienced staff sit at home and drink cups of tea, especially when an experienced member of a team has a higher productivity than a newer member.

It's kind of a catch-22. The small companies can't afford to let any members of the team, experienced or not, have an easy time and the large companies..well..just look at the whole EA fiasco. You won't find another games company so set on milestones and profits.

We're also missing one important issue here, the games themselves. If you're a peddler of crap games then your just saturating the market place imho.

 

[^Ben]

Also about the industry crashing, artists can easily transfer skills to other industrys, and so can programmers.

At the moment im working towards tools programmer, so it's not the guys who you hear about that write ze uber duber renderers, but we are still here So if theindustry crashed I could probably work in other application development sectors.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Well the speakers at the GDC are some of the most experienced people in the industry.

Doesn't mean everything they tell you is the truth. Learn to think for yourself not from what someone tells you.

Remember, everyone starts off as a 'newb', if you can't even keep the newbs then there's no way in hell your going to keep your experienced staff, if you get any.

Please re-read what I said, thanks. Especially the bit about treating them differently.. If you want respect in this industry, you earn it. Don't earn it or run around thinking your the best, and expect to be burnt, quickly and publicly. An experienced artist who has a proven track record, is going to get the better jobs, the better pay, the better treatment because they've earnt it. You know what your getting with a pro, and chances are, which is very often the case, you've worked together countless times before anyway. I have my own list of guys in the industry who I know I can trust with various projects. I know straight away when I hear a name, what they've done, where their major talents lay. But mention to me John Doe from Denver, who's never had a job before. Why should I give him the same level of respect or the same pay, when he's yet to prove himself.

If a game company is struggling to meet a milestone or is in the crunch phase I find it highly unlikely that they'll work their new staff to the bone but let their experienced staff sit at home and drink cups of tea, especially when an experienced member of a team has a higher productivity than a newer member.

Please don't twist my words, re-read thanks. You clearly don't understand what freelance work is, or how one works from home. You DONT sit on your arse and drink tea all day.. If you don't do the work, your standing in the industry drops VERY quickly, YOU have to work even if your at home, and get that work done on time, or your not gonna get another job.

Your only as good as your last job, applies to actors and applies to CG guys just the same. If you work on a shit job, or produce something terrible. Thats what your gonna be remembered for. Nobody cares what you did 20 years before. So don't assume working from home is easier, its just more convinient for the older more experienced people who because they have a reliable history, can be trusted to work under their own steam and get the work produced on time and to the standard expected from them, for the amount they now demand. I don't really know what bit your missing here, its pretty simple.. The better you do, the more you get known, the more money you can earn and the more respect you get.. Infact the very people your taking their word of, the GDC, these people are the very people your claiming sit at home and drink tea all day.. So which is it?

It's kind of a catch-22. The small companies can't afford to let any members of the team, experienced or not, have an easy time and the large companies..well..just look at the whole EA fiasco. You won't find another games company so set on milestones and profits.

I'm afraid your quite wrong, there are so so many people looking for their first break in the industry that a newbie is quite easily replaced, often within the same day. Don't forget on average even a small company, providing it advertises its job positions well, will have a large database of prospective employee's, failing that they can simply call up a recruitment agency, ask for a specific type and get plenty of people they can contact.

We're also missing one important issue here, the games themselves. If you're a peddler of crap games then your just saturating the market place imho.

Well since we weren't discussing the quality of the games but were discussing employment in the industry, I don't see how this has a point here. If you peddle crap, your not gonna last long, your gonna make no money and your going to be forgotton in no time, until you try get more work, then you'll be remembered and ofcourse not even considered, because you've nothing worthwhile to show.

Also about the industry crashing, artists can easily transfer skills to other industrys, and so can programmers.

At the moment im working towards tools programmer, so it's not the guys who you hear about that write ze uber duber renderers, but we are still here So if theindustry crashed I could probably work in other application development sectors.

Go work for Steve Worley and help him and his company convince Newtek to do something about their SDK so the next version of FPrime has access to the useful surface shaders and render buffers, and I will promise you I and a good many thousands of other artists will love you forever!

 

[hungryduck]

you can always finish your education, you may never get this opportunity again....

 

[^Ben]

Go work for Steve Worley and help him and his company convince Newtek to do something about their SDK so the next version of FPrime has access to the useful surface shaders and render buffers, and I will promise you I and a good many thousands of other artists will love you forever!

Are you le hot? :cheese:

 

[mortiz]

Doesn't mean everything they tell you is the truth. Learn to think for yourself not from what someone tells you.

So I should believe what you tell me instead?

Please re-read what I said, thanks. Especially the bit about treating them differently.. If you want respect in this industry, you earn it. Don't earn it or run around thinking your the best, and expect to be burnt, quickly and publicly. An experienced artist who has a proven track record, is going to get the better jobs, the better pay, the better treatment because they've earnt it. You know what your getting with a pro, and chances are, which is very often the case, you've worked together countless times before anyway. I have my own list of guys in the industry who I know I can trust with various projects. I know straight away when I hear a name, what they've done, where their major talents lay. But mention to me John Doe from Denver, who's never had a job before. Why should I give him the same level of respect or the same pay, when he's yet to prove himself.

I did read what you said, you said

You can throw newbies around all you want, there's always plenty to fill their boots and every single one of them is expendable and very easily replaced,

Now to me that sounds awfully disrespectful to new talent. "Throw them around"? I accept that new members of the industry will be worked and if they're not good enough they will be dropped, but at the same time new talent is there to be nurtured, not to be scared away. You may say "If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen" well this mentality is consistently damaging the industry as can be seen in the QoL papers and the complaints originating in the industry. If the industry can't maintain its new talent the amount of experience in the industry will drop significantly and the quality of the product will drop. You may have a lot of people wanting to start in the industry but if you can't keep them for more than a year what's the point?

Please don't twist my words, re-read thanks. You clearly don't understand what freelance work is, or how one works from home. You DONT sit on your arse and drink tea all day.. If you don't do the work, your standing in the industry drops VERY quickly, YOU have to work even if your at home, and get that work done on time, or your not gonna get another job.

I didn't think we were talking about freelance work, I thought we were talking about the industry in general. You're right though, freelance work in the industry is not an area I've looked into, but the due to the nature of the industry almost all of it’s freelance anyway (you're forced to move onto different jobs often).

Your only as good as your last job, applies to actors and applies to CG guys just the same. If you work on a shit job, or produce something terrible. Thats what your gonna be remembered for. Nobody cares what you did 20 years before. So don't assume working from home is easier, its just more convinient for the older more experienced people who because they have a reliable history, can be trusted to work under their own steam and get the work produced on time and to the standard expected from them, for the amount they now demand. I don't really know what bit your missing here, its pretty simple.. The better you do, the more you get known, the more money you can earn and the more respect you get.. Infact the very people your taking their word of, the GDC, these people are the very people your claiming sit at home and drink tea all day.. So which is it?

Now who's twisting the words? I didn't claim that they sat at home drinking tea all day, what I said was that it was unlikely that during a crunch phase a company would allow it's most experienced staff to sit at home and drink tea. During a crunch phase, even if you're working from home, you're still going to be forced to work 80 hour + weeks sat at their computers at home instead of at the office. Just because they're sat at home doing work doesn't mean they're getting quality family time in.

I'm afraid your quite wrong, there are so so many people looking for their first break in the industry that a newbie is quite easily replaced, often within the same day. Don't forget on average even a small company, providing it advertises its job positions well, will have a large database of prospective employee's, failing that they can simply call up a recruitment agency, ask for a specific type and get plenty of people they can contact.

Again, this "newbies being easily replaced" is good for a company in the very short term, but very bad for the industry in the long term.

Well since we weren't discussing the quality of the games but were discussing employment in the industry, I don't see how this has a point here. If you peddle crap, your not gonna last long, your gonna make no money and your going to be forgotton in no time, until you try get more work, then you'll be remembered and ofcourse not even considered, because you've nothing worthwhile to show.

I was simply stating that in order to show that experienced developers won't keep the game industry afloat on their own. Let's face it, there's a lot of crap out there. The industry needs new talent and new ideas to survive.

I'm a programmer by nature and it's the area of the industry I am focusing in, I assume a freelance programmer is rarer than a freelance artist.

 

[The Dark Elf]

So I should believe what you tell me instead?

No you should learn to think for yourself, not regurgitate information.

Now to me that sounds awfully disrespectful to new talent. "Throw them around"? I accept that new members of the industry will be worked and if they're not good enough they will be dropped, but at the same time new talent is there to be nurtured, not to be scared away. You may say "If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen" well this mentality is consistently damaging the industry as can be seen in the QoL papers and the complaints originating in the industry. If the industry can't maintain its new talent the amount of experience in the industry will drop significantly and the quality of the product will drop. You may have a lot of people wanting to start in the industry but if you can't keep them for more than a year what's the point?

Well, welcome to the world of business where lets face it, everything is down to money not good intentions, good intentions doesn't pay the bills, good intentions doesn't get the work done on time or fill the fridge or put your kids through college. I can understand the whole wanting to be nice and doing people favours thing for people entering into it, we've all been there, as you say, we were all newbies once, we all thought it was some amazingly cool job, we all thought we were brilliant at what we did. Then we all got a shock when we realised we were the small fishes in the big pond now. There's no room for ego's with newbies, and any respect you get you need to earn it. Your one of thousands of people, what makes you special compared to them?

But I'm telling you now, just cause you might give someone else a break, don't be surprised when they screw you over and take your place because you let your feelings get in the way. I know it all sounds harsh to you but that's what its like. Everyone getting into it wants a break, everyone wants to earn their money and get noticed and work on the cool jobs, and why would someone who you've just met care if you don't get it because they did? Do you think they'll be thinking of you while their at work after beating you to the position because you were. It's like working for free, a dead end. But your not the first and your certainly not going to be the last to argue about this, you'll just have to learn the hard way like they did, and they did learn, after they realised they should look after themselves, not some other guy in the same position. He might be your "best friend" but if the job is well paid, on a really cool film or game. Do you _really_ think anyone who's serious about doing this kind of work is gonna step down and let you take the job instead? Losing out on a possible bright future and risking never having that big break again?

As for how newbies are treated.. Sorry but its true, if they can't handle people who have been doing this stuff for years and KNOW what their doing, giving advice and treating someone as the newbie they are.. And they don't grow a thick skin real quick, then how do you expect them to last, if you think that's the worst their gonna get, then well heh sorry but they will get FAR worse from the employers, and clients and the people paying the money who don't give a shit about your personal problems, or if your girlfriend cheated on you or if your having a baby. You were hired to do a job and that's what they're paying you for. There's simply no room for tears or excuses, the pro's and vets are doing the newbies a favour, just like was done to them. If you can't do it, go, let someone who can do it take your place before you make a fool of yourself.

The industry is NOT loads of fun, its not some dream job if you can't hack it with a few comments from people you should be treating with respect. It's just way more interesting than other jobs out there, but its also incredibly competitive and anyone who lets their feelings get in the way will be taken advantage of.

I'm sorry if you don't agree with this, but honestly its common-sense. The good jobs are few and far between, there are FAR more wannabes than there are good jobs, the best ones are taken before they even get advertised by the pro's (the whole its who you know thing) so what's left is fought over by everyone else, chances don't come along often and when they do, loads of people will go for them. It doesn't mean you have to be underhand to get it, in fact that's not a good idea. But don't think just cause you did someone a favour, that they'll help you get in too, why should they put their neck on the line.

Learn to respect those who've been doing this far longer than you, all it takes is for one of them to say "oh I wouldn't hire him, he's a mouthy little bastard" and that'll spread like wildfire, work will dry up and you'll be left doing logo's for the local takeaway.

but if you can't keep them for more than a year what's the point?

There's always a new crop who think their the next best thing, a few of them will go on to be well respected leaders in the industry and replace the current ones who'll either retire, or move onto bigger things, the rest will realise they can't cut it and give up, to be replaced by another crop of talent, and it goes on and on and on. This is the same across the board.. Seriously, saying this wont happen is like saying suddenly there wont be any new actors. Doesn't take a programmer to realise how silly that is does it

Now who's twisting the words? I didn't claim that they sat at home drinking tea all day, what I said was that it was unlikely that during a crunch phase a company would allow it's most experienced staff to sit at home and drink tea. During a crunch phase, even if you're working from home, you're still going to be forced to work 80 hour + weeks sat at their computers at home instead of at the office. Just because they're sat at home doing work doesn't mean they're getting quality family time in.

I think your just seeing black and white again and not really paying attention Your certainly ignoring the point here and really are showing a complete lack of understanding for this. Dude I've freelanced for years, I love freelancing, I can be working flat out to a deadline and I still get plenty of time to myself from working from home. Bah your becoming really annoying not getting this so I'll just drop it and let you work it out yourself someday.

I'm a programmer by nature and it's the area of the industry I am focusing in, I assume a freelance programmer is rarer than a freelance artist.

It's even worse for programmers. What with all the opensource stuff out there and the many people able to learn programming easier in schools than CG. So all this crap you mention being churned out lately, its not down to the artists, we're just doing our jobs that are set out, more often than not, by the coders. The problem isn't with us lot, its with the coding pool being saturated with everyone thinking they can make the next 3D engine, then guys looking for a quick buck, with no prior knowledge of the industry, who throw some random idea together, hire these desperate coders who haven't got their breaks yet, grab a few artists in the same position, since they're all real cheap now and almost giving it away - drawn to it thinking they'll make it big, and out comes games like that truck one where you could drive over any mountain even at a vertical climb, or through buildings or off the map entirely.. Who's fault is coding like that? the musicians?

So quit pointing fingers, you coders are more to blame for the crap out there than you want to admit

-

Really though, damaging the industry for giving feedback.. Nope, load of BS madeup from newbies who got their asses burnt after showing some bryce model to an elitist and then wondering why they laughed at them. You might be in that situation someday too.. 10 years from now, your sat there, you've worked on a new generation of 3D engine with virtual reality display on a holographic surface.. over the years you've seen countless people showing you these basic programs that you quit writing when you were in highschool.. You know they aren't impressive, you've seen so many people doing the same thing, day after day, year after year. Asking you the same questions, telling YOU your job when you try to give them advice and treat them right. You'll get pissed at this and realise most of them aren't worth the effort, you'll find a few who are, those who know their beginners, who'll listen and learn and not treat you like you don't know what your talking about. You'll go out of your way to help them. But the others, those with ego's who think they know more than you do after they've been doing it for a few weeks. You wont have time for them, you wont want to hire them. You'll learn to spot the real talent. And thats when you'll remember why pro's today treated you this way, separating the wheat from the chaff, finding those newbies who are worth the effort, and getting rid of the time wasters who are in it for the wrong reasons, who wont learn, who'll cause more problems than they could fix. Why should YOU waste YOUR time for someone who wont even listen to your valued experience?

I don't expect you to understand this until it happens to you, but then you will, and you'll realise why it happens. Only those who show themselves to be worth it get any real help from the experienced people. The rest who can't handle the truth just fade away and make room for another group, again some of those will be worth it, the majority wont.

 

[RMachucaA]

W0rd Dark Elf.

Im freelancing myself atm... its a mixed blessing really, for one, the schedule is unbeatable, but on the flipside, i find myself working till sunrise. BTW, if anyone is going to E3, make sure to pass by MS and see what goodies im working on for launch of the 360 .


And btw... its really quite hard to really understand the amount of artists out there willing to work.... for FREE. thats how hard it is to get into the industry, although its usually the mediocre ones that end up that desperate. nevertheless, it gives you an idea of how things are.

 

[The Dark Elf]

W0rd Dark Elf.

Im freelancing myself atm... its a mixed blessing really, for one, the schedule is unbeatable, but on the flipside, i find myself working till sunrise. BTW, if anyone is going to E3, make sure to pass by MS and see what goodies im working on for launch of the 360 .

I enjoy that, nobody to disturb you during the night, sleep when its really hot in the afternoon, work mornings and once the sun goes down and its nice n chilly again. No stuffy offices, smoke breaks when I want em, TV on in the background. No annoying Team Leaders coming along telling you what to do and thinking being a team leader means something hehe. Only bit about freelancing I don't like is sorting out the accounts, very dull. Did take me a while in the beginning though to get used to it, being my own boss, can be so tempting to just not bother until the last minute when starting out hehe. (yeah I learnt the hard way when I missed a deadline and got in real trouble lol) behaved since then

And btw... its really quite hard to really understand the amount of artists out there willing to work.... for FREE. thats how hard it is to get into the industry, although its usually the mediocre ones that end up that desperate. nevertheless, it gives you an idea of how things are.

Yeah. You know you've hit bottom when you start giving it away for free to companies that can otherwise pay, very hard to get out of it again once you've given it away.

 

[^Ben]

This topic gets my stamp of approval!

 

[EVIL]

Thats cause we know we're onto a good thing, and the sheer thought of working in a call center, counting the minutes until we can go home and count the minutes until another terrible horrible day at a call center begins again.. sends our blood cold. It's just, the dullness of it all.. I'd rather work on a football game than in a factory or call center or shop (and I can't stand the thought of having to work on any sports related games, (minus sensible soccer but I didn't know any better back then lol), walked out of Gremlin years ago when I realised the job would involve just sports games)

Its like admitting we need to grow up and can't play with our toys anymore AND WE WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN!!!!

WORD! .

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Was just reading some news reports and learned a little more about Belarus.

Be careful, apparantly it is Europe's last remaining dictatorship.