i'd take china instead of islam any day!

[AKIRA]

i still stand by my points although i apologize for saying it in such a childish way. But, it's not hard to see why most of the middle east hates america when you know the facts.

 

[jverne]

To be honest, I'm not sure about why some muslims are straying from their religion and going off and killing people. I don't like to fight, especially on the internet with people who I obviously dont know.

I believe in God, I don't want everybody in the forums to verbally jump me cause of that, and you know what, everyone has their own opinions for that, including me.
If I insulted anyone, I'm sorry for that, I'm just heated up that most muslims are treated like barbaric warriors, considering that some act like ones *cough*Osama*cough* and some don't.

see you missed the point. i'm not talking about muslims hating america or america hating muslims.

i'm talking about how islam is in direct conflict with an enlightened, progressive, modern mentality.

you absolutely can't say nothing bothers you from a moral point of view, if you do then you are not a true muslim...so why even bother to be muslim (or religious) anyway?

i really don't want to put you down but you have issues in your life, clear them out, because you're indirectly allowing terrorists to thrive.
on every 100 muslims theres probably 1 or more who take their religion too...emm...seriously.


Dan:
maybe i can answer you why the "rationalists" are so active.
because "we" have the least voices in the world.

as for ignorance...that has nothing to with being an atheist, but it depends from individual to individual, so basically you are generalizing.

 

[Dan]

Dan:
maybe i can answer you why the "rationalists" are so active.
because "we" have the least voices in the world.

The ironic thing is that the people who I have met and would consider very rational and objective are usually the people who are least inclined to promote their views to others. They are usually content to accept the world for what it is. Rational people tend to focus their efforts on living their own life and understanding others better rather than changing the minds of others to fit their understanding.

 

[jverne]

The ironic thing is that the people who I have met and would consider very rational and objective are usually the people who are least inclined to promote their views to others. They are usually content to accept the world for what it is. Rational people tend to focus their efforts on living their own life and understanding others better rather than changing the minds of others to fit their understanding.

ever thought their life style might be threatened and thats why they rose up?

 

[Dan]

ever thought their life style might be threatened and thats why they rose up?

I don't see the relevance of your words to my quote

 

[jverne]

I don't see the relevance of your words to my quote

if i'm not mistaking you said that the really rational people don't go around arguing and trying to "convert" people to their views?

i responded that maybe they did keep to themselves, but the situation forced them to become active.

 

[Dan]

No, I was pointing out that your idea of rational people differs from mine. I was speaking in plain words.

 

[jverne]

No, I was pointing out that your idea of rational people differs from mine

okay...i probably missed where the part where you said that. :|

 

[NeptuneUK]

Does this thread actually have a point?
The title still makes no sense.

 

[AKIRA]

there really is no point. it's just going to turn into a flame war at some point..we should just ban religion threads all together.

 

[[Matt]]

I have seen much more ignorance and fanaticism from the supposed rationalists than from the few Islamics in this thread.

I can always rely on Dan for a QFT.

 

[Leto]

Yeah, jverne is just a troll.

 

[Godron]

You can't define a religion by the words in its holy book. This is because most holy books, the Koran included, contradict themselves so much. You must define a religion by the way people interpret and act on their holy book. It's no good saying that people are misinterpretting the Koran by selecting the more barbaric phrases and ignoring the gentle ones, because how do you know the gentle ones are the "right" ones in the first place? You don't, and you have little way of knowing. I believe that Jihad and other barbaric ideologies associated with Islam are more an expression of human nature than Islam itself.
Even though extremists are a minority within Islam, I can hardly ignore the fact that even the beliefs of moderate Muslims conflict with the modern, rational way of thinking. Why is it that nearly everything I hear about Islam is unpleasant in some way? The word Islam actually translates into "submission", surely that is an indication to the general nature of Islam?
Enzorr, you're a Muslim. Tell me, how widespread are the following opinions/traditions/whatevers among other Muslims:

Women belong in the home.
Arranged marriage.
Women should wear Burkas.
Hospitallity towards guests.
A global Islamic state should exist.
Homosexuality is immoral.
Gays should be prosecuted by the law.
Women are more valuable than men.

I'm not deliberately trying to slander your religion here. The fact is, these are the things that I have heard and remembered about Islam in the past, and I want to know how true they are. I know you might not be able to give a definate answer on these that represents Muslims as a whole, on account of the varying opinions among Muslims. But you probably know more about it than me.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Another great minority in pretty much any religion - the ones who've actually studied their scripture.

Unless Allah wrote a dynamite vest companion guide (purposefully ignorant statement, hoho!).

 

[[Matt]]

You can't define a religion by the words in its holy book. This is because most holy books, the Koran included, contradict themselves so much. You must define a religion by the way people interpret and act on their holy book. It's no good saying that people are misinterpreting the Koran by selecting the more barbaric phrases and ignoring the gentle ones, because how do you know the gentle ones are the "right" ones in the first place? You don't, and you have little way of knowing. I believe that Jihad and other barbaric ideologies associated with Islam are more an expression of human nature than Islam itself.
Even though extremists are a minority within Islam, I can hardly ignore the fact that even the beliefs of moderate Muslims conflict with the modern, rational way of thinking. Why is it that nearly everything I hear about Islam is unpleasant in some way? The word Islam actually translates into "submission", surely that is an indication to the general nature of Islam?

Go back in history to around 800-1200 years ago and the current situation of modern western christian civilisation being associated with the enlightenment was actually reversed. Around this time the worlds most educated and enlightened civilisation was the Abbasid caliphate with Baghdad as both its capital and the centre of the worlds educated and scientific community. The list of inventions and innovations provided by Islamic scholars during this period never ceases to amaze me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_in_the_Muslim_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

In the zoology field of biology, Muslim biologists developed theories on evolution which were widely taught in medieval Islamic schools. John William Draper, a contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered the "Mohammedan theory of evolution" to be developed "much farther than we are disposed to do, extending them even to inorganic or mineral things." According to al-Khazini, ideas on evolution were widespread among "common people" in the Islamic world by the 12th century

Christianity on the other hand had its influence on the unsophisticated western European civilisations of the time who we're seen as far more barbaric and fundamentalist in their religious views than their islamic counterparts.

 

[RjD]

1) Damage and poverty brought about by USA & USSR meddling with their affairs, plays a major role in current state of affairs, causing the lowly educated (but still warmongering!) low-class inhabitants of that part of the world to hate "West" (not to mention that it is the West, aka USA&USSR who gave them some modern warfare skills and tools)

2) Some serious butthurt the more educated ones of them must suffer due to the fact that the Western culture their ancestors used to "outclass" in Medieval times has now evolved to a point their culture simply can't catch up even with all the "m@d cr@zY oil $$$" (BTW, same shit with Russian Federation here).

3)The efficiency of Western culture compared to modern muslim culture. Like it or not, Islam is a memeplex custom-tailored to ensure maximum efficiency during "jihad" warfare when conducted by primitive tools, and fine-tuned to a particular set of climatic and social condition (it is perfectly obvious to anyone who read the Qur'an).

Whether you like it or not, the so-called "Western enlightened culture" is efficient and spreads easily. The "memes" of this culture reproduce and propagate quite rapidly, and even more, they tend to powerfully suppress "local" cultures.

........
don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that evil globalism is destroying "teh viewtyfull indigenous culture" .

What I mean to say is that the culture with more efficient memetics is slowly diluting and phasing out the less efficient culture, as dictated by the laws of evolution.

And the intellectual elite of the "Muslim world" has no choice but to witness their culture being diluted, eroded and ultimately replaced with a foreign culture, a culture which has somewhat opposite values, a culture that is the legacy of the "medieval European culture", which used to be inferior to "medieval muslim culture".

Man, I don't want to be one of them. Sad, sad, sad people. Even when rich

 

[[Matt]]

What I mean to say is that the culture with more efficient memetics is slowly diluting and phasing out the less efficient culture, as dictated by the laws of evolution.

Thats a bizzare statement?! What has evolution got to do with politics and memetics and what exactly do you mean by 'the laws of evolution'?

 

[Druckles]

Yeah, jverne is just a troll.

You can't say that to someone who's been around for 4 years longer than you have. I believe jverne is a misguided youth who isn't capable of actually thinking about anyone else outside of his own body. It seems apparent to me he doesn't know any Muslims personally. I believe that if he did, his whole perspective of life would be altered. Similarly, if he were raised in the middle-east, his perspective of life would be quite drastically different. Problems like the above thread arise from the lack of understanding of people. Unfortunately, there are also some people in the world who fail to even bother trying to understand.

This is called ignorance.

 

[RjD]

@Matt

Well, you see, evolution has a lot to do with meme theory, as meme theorists contend that memes evolve via usual Darwinian means (My humble opinion on the subject being that memes can also evolve via non-Darwinian means, but that is a long story)

And meme theory, in turn, has very much to do with politics, religion et cetera, because this theory contends that all ideas, be they political, religious or of any other kind (including meme theory itself!) are actually complexes of interconnected memes.

nothing more, nothing less .

Also, this:

Thats a bizzare statement?!

appears to be a separate question, right?

P.S.: Wikipedia is really your friend.

 

[RjD]

You can't say that to someone who's been around for 4 years longer than you have.

Druckles, since when does teh internets have rules of conduct based on how long someone was present on the forum?

 

[Emporius]

Druckles, since when does teh internets have rules of conduct based on how long someone was present on the forum?

It does when considering trolling. Leto has all of 5 posts, while Druckles has been interacting with jverne for a number of years. Who is better qualified to judge? :dozey:

 

[Druckles]

Druckles, since when does teh internets have rules of conduct based on how long someone was present on the forum?

Forever, they're unwritten.

And I wasn't referring to general conduct, I was referring to the logic behind it. Someone who's been here for four years can hardly be a troll, as they'd have been banned already, so they've probably shown their worth already, thus gets excused from certain things. Someone who's been around a month doesn't have that same priviledge.

Edit:

It does when considering trolling. Whatshisface has all of 5 posts, whil Druckles has been interacting with jverne for a number of years. Who is better qualified to judge?

This

Edit //: Plus Whatshisface aka Leto made all of 6 words to contribute to the topic.

 

[RjD]

And I wasn't referring to general conduct, I was referring to the logic behind it. Someone who's been here for four years can hardly be a troll, as they'd have been banned already, so they've probably shown their worth already, thus gets excused from certain things. Someone who's been around a month doesn't have that same priviledge.

Understood

 

[[Matt]]

memetics != evolution :<

 

[RjD]

memetics != evolution :<

a bizzare statement

I don't see where I claim memetics = evolution.

 

[[Matt]]

@Matt

Well, you see, evolution has a lot to do with meme theory, as meme theorists contend that memes evolve via usual Darwinian means

Let me clarify... Im fully aware of memetics but Darwinism should not be used to describe anything but biological natural selection as anyone new to Darwin's idea's and the theory of evolution will probably misunderstand them both. Creationists wrongly interpret Darwinism to mean so much more than biological natural selection

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/darwinism_materialism.html

 

[jverne]

Yeah, jverne is just a troll.

you are an idiot...there are plenty of points in this thread, if you'd read it. but i guess you just popped in with some standard knejerk ignorant statement.

You can't say that to someone who's been around for 4 years longer than you have. I believe jverne is a misguided youth who isn't capable of actually thinking about anyone else outside of his own body. It seems apparent to me he doesn't know any Muslims personally. I believe that if he did, his whole perspective of life would be altered. Similarly, if he were raised in the middle-east, his perspective of life would be quite drastically different. Problems like the above thread arise from the lack of understanding of people. Unfortunately, there are also some people in the world who fail to even bother trying to understand.

This is called ignorance.

i appreciate your kindness, but you are wrong calling me misguided.

my position is pretty clear, at least i though it was.

i knew some muslims, my class mate (shes a girl...don't know the correct term...ups). she was often frustrated, because she was pretty but her parents didn't let her date, so she did it secretly.
guess how well that turned out.


my point it that islam in any form (conservative or progressive) is dangerous to western beliefs. i put up the documentaries where they interviewed the leading followers of islam, and they all exhibited certain beliefs that are in direct conflict with our (western) values.

islam doesn't belong in the west above all other religions

please don't just disrespect my name and views without posting necessary proof that shows that. thank you

 

[Druckles]

i knew some muslims, my class mate (shes a girl...don't know the correct term...ups). she was often frustrated, because she was pretty but her parents didn't let her date, so she did it secretly.
guess how well that turned out.


my point it that islam in any form (conservative or progressive) is dangerous to western beliefs.

And you never thought that the West is dangerorous to Islamic beliefs? Just think about her parents. How upset they'd be about finding out about their girl partaking in such activities. Why do you only focus on Muslims when Christians have exactly the same problem? And guess what, your culture used to be Christian.

i put up the documentaries where they interviewed the leading followers of islam, and they all exhibited certain beliefs that are in direct conflict with our (western) values.

"Gay anal sex" also conflicts with Christian beliefs. I'm sure alot of "western values" conflict directly with most religion out there.

But wait, I thought "western values" was all about accepting everyone.

islam doesn't belong in the west above all other religions

So you just want to kick them all out?

please don't just disrespect my name and views without posting necessary proof that shows that. thank you

I don't need to post anything, you've already done that for me.

 

[repiV]

And you never thought that the West is dangerorous to Islamic beliefs? Just think about her parents. How upset they'd be about finding out about their girl partaking in such activities. Why do you only focus on Muslims when Christians have exactly the same problem? And guess what, your culture used to be Christian.

Who gives a shit about how Islamic beliefs are affected by the West? In fact I would positively rejoice if Islam crawled into the ****ing toilet from whence it came and never, ever returned. For that matter, why should I have any sympathy for oppressive parents trying to rule their children with an iron fist, trying to isolate them from the culture they've willingly brought them into? I find the very concept offensive - yes, let's move to Britain and mooch off their superior economy, but girl, if you talk to any of them white boys - we'll disown you. Such people deserve no respect from us whatsoever. My best friend in college was temporarily kicked out of the house and all sorts of shit just because her brother saw us together in the street. She was always living a lie.
That's not our problem. Our culture is Western, not Islamic - it's their duty to adapt to us, if they can't manage that then they shouldn't be here.
And Christians don't have the same problem. That's just a total load of PC baloney. I've never, ever met a Christian whose parents wouldn't let them mingle with the opposite sex, or any of that shit.

"Gay anal sex" also conflicts with Christian beliefs. I'm sure alot of "western values" conflict directly with most religion out there.

Gay anal sex isn't a Western value.

But wait, I thought "western values" was all about accepting everyone.

No.

 

[jverne]

And you never thought that the West is dangerorous to Islamic beliefs? Just think about her parents. How upset they'd be about finding out about their girl partaking in such activities. Why do you only focus on Muslims when Christians have exactly the same problem? And guess what, your culture used to be Christian.



"Gay anal sex" also conflicts with Christian beliefs. I'm sure alot of "western values" conflict directly with most religion out there.

But wait, I thought "western values" was all about accepting everyone.



So you just want to kick them all out?



I don't need to post anything, you've already done that for me.

1. sharia law is not our law system, if you don't like it **** off.
religion should be separated from state...tell that to a muslim.
yes we also have christian nutjobs, but they aren't so outspoken as islamic ones in europe, or atleast they aren't taken to serious.
most EU countries kicked Christianity out ages ago.

2. i never did say religion is not total bullshit.

3. that is where i think we need to get our heads out of our asses...how can you accept someone who wants to overthrow you?! i think this is a real issue that our politicians don't want to deal with in europe. look at Britain for ****s sakes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fOzyi2gz_U&feature=related


4.kick them out...not necessarily. comply to our standards (which i admit are in some ways lacking and stupid) or get out. atleast we generally don't have a stupid invented medieval book to make rules upon.
islam is currently much more true to it's believes than Christianity is since our ancestors already dealt with it

5. nah...i pretty much complied to most debating rules, while you are flirting with so many logical fallacies.

oh poor me, i don't see the big picture. come on man, stop acting like some wise guy.

here, just for fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=OrSyhZqcKLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5cD-_n_47k

ok this is more a demonstration of government idiocy, but it's an intriguing watch anyway.

i guess you didn't even watched the three part docu i posted, right?

 

[Nemesis6]

I think Rage Boy is the perfect criticism to Islam..... Him, and the legion of psychos who are now attacking Wikipedia for having pictures of Muhammed. The problem, as stated, is that the religion gets defined by their followers. And they're really not that good at expressing themselves, are they?

And it's not just the extremists that are ****ed up... I did a little digging around, and check this thread out - http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=159044

Person wonders what he should do about a guy who beats his 1?-year-old being, people come in and say he should talk with the guy about it. One sole voice of reason enters and says he should call social services, and the rest of them reply by pointing out that this could be a problem because then he might be placed with a non-Muslim family.

Isolationism ftw.

 

[Dan]

Here is the US army guide to Iraq and Islamic customs circa 1942:
http://www.radaronline.com/photos/2007/06/iraq_worldwarii_military_guide_1.php

 

[RjD]

@Matt

Let me clarify... Im fully aware of memetics but Darwinism should not be used to describe anything but biological natural selection as anyone new to Darwin's idea's and the theory of evolution will probably misunderstand them both.

Well, AFAIK, there is no law, rule, or some kind of logical construct that would forbid someone from applying the principles of biological evolution (Modern evolutionary synthesis in its full glory or just Darwinian evolution, that is not the point here) to a nonbiological field.
Hell, you can have SOFTWARE CONSTRUCTS behave is this vein, this is called "genetic software", if I remember correctly.

In case the result will turn out to be a sound scientific theory (something memetics only partially cope with now, but I hope future discoveries will bring improvements to the field), or will be demonstrated to be feasible in some practical manner(genetic algorythms again!) the application was fully justified.

The fact that this application (and the results) may confuse the poorly educated is a sad one, but it can only be helped by further educating the person in question, until the person is no longer "new" aka poorly educated.

Creationists wrongly interpret Darwinism to mean so much more than biological natural selection

The fact that some person in the beginning of XXI century can have a mind so enfeebled that the said person adheres to creationist/ID nonsense is both tragic and hilarious, and demonstrates how limited our ability to diagnose and treat brain damage currently is

Well, as for memetics, the very basic concept of "meme", as originally defined by Dawkins, incorporates Darwinian evolution (once again, methinks that at least some memeplexes have one more, unusual evolutionary mechanism in place, but that is so offtopic).

So, memetics has a ton to do with evolution, and, if meme theory is correct, memetics have a ton to do with politics...

P.S.: Thanks for "islamrejects" link. I LOLed.

P.P.S.: I should have added a special "no social darwinism" disclaimer to my post, just near the "no "ye eeeviiillll globalism" disclaimer"...

 

[RjD]

And it's not just the extremists that are ****ed up... I did a little digging around, and check this thread out - http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=159044

LOL. Thread over that link is more retarded than average YouTube comment.

 

[RjD]

@Druckles

(okay, I know the comment was not directed at me, but still feel like responding. Shoot me if you feel like it)

And you never thought that the West is dangerorous to Islamic beliefs?

Well, I actually agree, but see no reason to lament this.

It is their problem, they can try to come up with a more competitive culture, capable of resisting Western one, or build an Iron Curtain and hide behind it. I would be even very glad sell them some Iron Curtain blueprints that are left over from Soviet Union

Just think about her parents. How upset they'd be about finding out about their girl partaking in such activities.

OMG, poor things, indeed.

Maybe, just maybe, they should have demonstrated some common sense and steered clear of that horrible country with a horrible, contagious culture?

 

[Nomad]

Actually, to be honest jverne, if you want to say something hurtful to people who just might be the opposite of what you say they are, keep it to yourself, please.
It's really hurtful when people are prejudiced against me just because of what I believe in, even when they don't get to know me at all.
I don't go ranting about in the forums about how all the other cultures should change their views because I say so, and because I don't like them.
True, Muslims don't date or have premarital sex, but I'm not bothered by that. Please don't be racist.

 

[repiV]

Actually, to be honest jverne, if you want to say something hurtful to people who just might be the opposite of what you say they are, keep it to yourself, please.
It's really hurtful when people are prejudiced against me just because of what I believe in, even when they don't get to know me at all.

Nobody here is prejudiced against you. As far as I can see, you're a reasonable enough sort. Some of us simply have an intense dislike for your religion, and it's not based on prejudice but on fact. If you want to take it personally, that's entirely your problem.

I don't go ranting about in the forums about how all the other cultures should change their views because I say so, and because I don't like them.
True, Muslims don't date or have premarital sex, but I'm not bothered by that. Please don't be racist.

Other cultures can have whatever the hell views they want, so long as they don't affect me. When Islam engages in cultural imperialism in MY country, that DOES affect me and THAT is a real example of one culture trying to force others to change in a place where it has absolutely no right to.
We already have a culture here, you can't just walk into another country and demand they accept and accomodate your culture. You have to adhere to theirs.
Can you really not see the irony in your statement?

For that matter, if you don't agree with the Western way, why would you even choose to live in a Western country?

 

[RjD]

@repiV

Other cultures can have whatever the hell views they want, so long as they don't affect me. When Islam engages in cultural imperialism in MY country, that DOES affect me and THAT is a real example of one culture trying to force others to change in a place where it has absolutely no right to.
We already have a culture here, you can't just walk into another country and demand they accept and accomodate your culture.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Also, in an unrelated newsflash, scientists are yet to find a single European Liberal who immigrated to a country that has Sharia, just to start demanding "respect towards HIS traditions"

 

[jverne]

Nobody here is prejudiced against you. As far as I can see, you're a reasonable enough sort. Some of us simply have an intense dislike for your religion, and it's not based on prejudice but on fact. If you want to take it personally, that's entirely your problem.



Other cultures can have whatever the hell views they want, so long as they don't affect me. When Islam engages in cultural imperialism in MY country, that DOES affect me and THAT is a real example of one culture trying to force others to change in a place where it has absolutely no right to.
We already have a culture here, you can't just walk into another country and demand they accept and accomodate your culture. You have to adhere to theirs.
Can you really not see the irony in your statement?

For that matter, if you don't agree with the Western way, why would you even choose to live in a Western country?

yup, you hit the nail alright.

Actually, to be honest jverne, if you want to say something hurtful to people who just might be the opposite of what you say they are, keep it to yourself, please.
It's really hurtful when people are prejudiced against me just because of what I believe in, even when they don't get to know me at all.
I don't go ranting about in the forums about how all the other cultures should change their views because I say so, and because I don't like them.
True, Muslims don't date or have premarital sex, but I'm not bothered by that. Please don't be racist.

dating and premarital sex is not illegal where we live, and any parent who will hurt their daughter for it will be considered a criminal.

it's our culture and if you want to live with us, when in rome do as the romans do, otherwise prepare to be mocked and otherwise criticized.

in other news

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3355938.ece

peace


edit:

listen to the comment below the article

Hamad Lone, London, England
If the case is proven againbst them, then they should be severely punished. As a British Muslim, it angers me that these morons do such damage to the image of a great religion. I would like them to show me wheer in Islamic scriptures such actions are justified? I have yet to find them.

that gives me a warm and fuzzy felling on the inside

 

[nurizeko]

Meh, if you don't like a country, theres well over a hundred different countries going, and more then a fair share are Islamic.

Complaining about a host country not being like the one you may of came from or admire, is silly, since you know, that other country is there, with enough room to accommodate you.


Bu that could just be my silly logical opinion that doesn't give succour and appeasement to griping religions/cultures who have gotten used to over politically correct governments.