i'd take china instead of islam any day!

[Leto]

Come to Canada, it's better here

jverne, the article says Muslim "Fanatics"

There are fanatics in any religion.

For Example: Christian Fanatics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAePrPgEwrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4

Yet, because there are a few Christians like that, we don't say that Christianity is the worst religion in the world.
It is just overgeneralization.

On Misunderstandings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joRNIDN99eU&feature=related

"The Quran teaches that the sun sets in a pond of murky water, this is scientifically incorrect"

Yeah, and it's more scientifically correct that Moses was able to part a body of water.

The passages are taken way too literally, hence the misunderstanding.

 

[Dan]

Come to Canada, it's better here

Canada has plenty of racism and ethnic gangs too.

And for the other guys, you don't see the U.S. army adopting Iraqi or Afghani customs do you?

 

[repiV]

Canada has plenty of racism and ethnic gangs too.

And for the other guys, you don't see the U.S. army adopting Iraqi or Afghani customs do you?

Um...

Yes, because a military deployment is totally the same thing as immigration. Seriously, what the hell kind of utterly ridiculous comparison is that?

 

[Dan]

I know. Military occupation is ridiculous. That was my point.

 

[[Matt]]

I know. Military occupation is ridiculous. That was my point.

Best post in this thread. Any further comments will be rendered pointless... :cheese:

 

[jverne]

Come to Canada, it's better here

jverne, the article says Muslim "Fanatics"

There are fanatics in any religion.

For Example: Christian Fanatics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAePrPgEwrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4

Yet, because there are a few Christians like that, we don't say that Christianity is the worst religion in the world.
It is just overgeneralization.

On Misunderstandings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joRNIDN99eU&feature=related

"The Quran teaches that the sun sets in a pond of murky water, this is scientifically incorrect"

Yeah, and it's more scientifically correct that Moses was able to part a body of water.

The passages are taken way too literally, hence the misunderstanding.

i believe i never said Christianity is not retarded like all religions are.

Christianity took a huge blow in the west after the 16th century, their utter stupidity was successfully contained. so basically they are less (in average) loud than others or at least they less expose themselves.
again i'm not denying christians are not stupid.

the problem with islam is that their religion forces them to act and be loud (in average) like we can all see, by all the stupidities they were and are up to.
islam didn't had much opposition trough the years and now they feel they can do whatever they want.

the west on the other hand is getting pussier by the day, which is wrong. our culture of "freedom" which our ancestors fought for is now being overtaken by some idiotic, medieval, barbaric religion.

my position is clear...do as we do or get the **** out. islam (and other crap) should not get more respect. state and religion should be far apart.

if a girl doesn't want to wear a hijab, she has the whole right not to wear it by our standards, it somebody hits her because of it they will be considered criminals and should be punished no matter what god they believe in.

islam is getting a free ride more than any other religion in the west...that should stop.

 

[Laivasse]

ITT: the increasingly common 'YOUR ARGUMENT AGAINST ISLAM IS INVALID BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY/AMERICA/YOUR MUM IS JUST AS BAD'-logical fallacy.

I'm tired of reiterating my viewpoint on this issue because it's such a tired moronic debate but I will say: Anti-islamic prejudice is not 'racism', since you cannot be racist against a mode of belief. The Religious Hatred Act in Great Britain was be cooked up for precisely this reason. I tend to dislike muslims because I hate the values that they commonly hold - just as I tend to dislike anyone who doesn't share values that are important to me, chief among those values being the primacy of freedom of speech and the importance of critical thinking. A person's values and beliefs, after all, account for their personality and the way they behave, to a large degree.

I also detest the idea that anyone has a right not to be offended by something, especially when the thing they are offended by is completely inoffensive to all but a few. That kind of attitude suggests that religious people have a monopoly on strength of conviction; it's like saying that ONLY muslims are capable of believing in something that strongly. Which is horseshit, as well as highly insulting to most non-religious people.

I hold very strong convictions and I hear things that offend my beliefs every day. Whenever I hear a muslim try to assert something moronic, for example, such as dismissing the theory of evolution as a conspiracy against dark-skinned people - an outrageous thing to say btw, since it amounts to likening black people to apes, an idea that certainly isn't suggested by Darwin's theory - it makes me want to staple the idiot's mouth shut, remove their brain with a hatchet, and then hawk phelgm onto it until it dissolves under the corrosiveness of my hatred. I DON'T do so, because in a free society I acknowledge the right of anyone to be that stupid, that offensive to my belief in the importance of critical thought.

And although I'd wager that I believe more strongly in my values than most Muslims believe in Allah - because let's face it, the majority of adherents to any religion tend to be tepid in their strength of belief - most muslims wouldn't afford me the same freedom of opinion given the chance. I'm talking about moderate muslims too. I'm fully aware that only an extreme minority commit violence, but a larger section of of the muslim community is sympathetic with those violent few, and a much, much larger section is unsympathetic but does hold ultra-conservative views generally, eg. believing that blasphemy/homosexuality/whatever should not be permitted.

All of that would still be fine with me if it didn't have an effect on society at large, but British MP's wilt in sympathy due to the vocal nature of the morons in question. For example, unlike in Denmark where those cartoonists appear to be strongly backed by Danish ministers, all I've heard from UK MP's is spineless apologist crap. Stuff like 'look at all the money Salman Rushdie costs the British taxpayer cuz of the police protection he needs...! He should be less controversial'. MAKES ME SO ANGRY.

I consider a brother any muslim who believes as strongly as I do in freedom of expression and the evils inherent in self-deception. However I piss on those who pay lip service to those values while at the same time backing up their nonsensical, oppressive doctrines with empty rationalisation. That's not prejudice, it's common sense (and strength of conviction).

 

[jverne]

ITT: the increasingly common 'YOUR ARGUMENT AGAINST ISLAM IS INVALID BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY/AMERICA/YOUR MUM IS JUST AS BAD'-logical fallacy.

I'm tired of reiterating my viewpoint on this issue because it's such a tired moronic debate but I will say: Anti-islamic prejudice is not 'racism', since you cannot be racist against a mode of belief. The Religious Hatred Act in Great Britain was be cooked up for precisely this reason. I tend to dislike muslims because I hate the values that they commonly hold - just as I tend to dislike anyone who doesn't share values that are important to me, chief among those values being the primacy of freedom of speech and the importance of critical thinking. A person's values and beliefs, after all, account for their personality and the way they behave, to a large degree.

I also detest the idea that anyone has a right not to be offended by something, especially when the thing they are offended by is completely inoffensive to all but a few. That kind of attitude suggests that religious people have a monopoly on strength of conviction; it's like saying that ONLY muslims are capable of believing in something that strongly. Which is horseshit, as well as highly insulting to most non-religious people.

I hold very strong convictions and I hear things that offend my beliefs every day. Whenever I hear a muslim try to assert something moronic, for example, such as dismissing the theory of evolution as a conspiracy against dark-skinned people - an outrageous thing to say btw, since it amounts to likening black people to apes, an idea that certainly isn't suggested by Darwin's theory - it makes me want to staple the idiot's mouth shut, remove their brain with a hatchet, and then hawk phelgm onto it until it dissolves under the corrosiveness of my hatred. I DON'T do so, because in a free society I acknowledge the right of anyone to be that stupid, that offensive to my belief in the importance of critical thought.

And although I'd wager that I believe more strongly in my values than most Muslims believe in Allah - because let's face it, the majority of adherents to any religion tend to be tepid in their strength of belief - most muslims wouldn't afford me the same freedom of opinion given the chance. I'm talking about moderate muslims too. I'm fully aware that only an extreme minority commit violence, but a larger section of of the muslim community is sympathetic with those violent few, and a much, much larger section is unsympathetic but does hold ultra-conservative views generally, eg. believing that blasphemy/homosexuality/whatever should not be permitted.

All of that would still be fine with me if it didn't have an effect on society at large, but British MP's wilt in sympathy due to the vocal nature of the morons in question. For example, unlike in Denmark where those cartoonists appear to be strongly backed by Danish ministers, all I've heard from UK MP's is spineless apologist crap. Stuff like 'look at all the money Salman Rushdie costs the British taxpayer cuz of the police protection he needs...! He should be less controversial'. MAKES ME SO ANGRY.

I consider a brother any muslim who believes as strongly as I do in freedom of expression and the evils inherent in self-deception. However I piss on those who pay lip service to those values while at the same time backing up their nonsensical, oppressive doctrines with empty rationalisation. That's not prejudice, it's common sense (and strength of conviction).

well said.


i'd just like to add one thing to the last point.
a religious person who doesn't comply to all the rules his religion dictates, is a cherry picking hypocrite. which baffles me why then would he call himself a follower. that is pure batshit stupidity and i dare any commit religious person to explain himself.

 

[jverne]

hats down to the media houses who did this

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/media/080213/X021313AU.html

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

my position is clear...do as we do or get the **** out. islam (and other crap) should not get more respect. state and religion should be far apart.

if a girl doesn't want to wear a hijab, she has the whole right not to wear it by our standards, it somebody hits her because of it they will be considered criminals and should be punished no matter what god they believe in.

islam is getting a free ride more than any other religion in the west...that should stop.

This. Go to East London or some other big city in theis country for a day, and then you'll see just how much islam gets a free ride as you put it.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

 

[kattmat]

well said.


i'd just like to add one thing to the last point.
a religious person who doesn't comply to all the rules his religion dictates, is a cherry picking hypocrite. which baffles me why then would he call himself a follower. that is pure batshit stupidity and i dare any commit religious person to explain himself.

So all religious people has to be fundamentalists, or they're not religious? Every single religion on earth "Cherry picks". Just because there is a tiny, obscure passage in a holy book written thousands of years ago doesn't mean it has to be followed, otherwise religions would become obsolete. Just look at Christianity, most of it has little resemblance to the Churches during roman times, or just 500 years ago.

You're right in that Islam is more "medieval" than most of Christianity for example, and that fundamentalism is more common. That doesn't mean that the entire religion is "a cancer" or evil. The vast majority of Muslims live in poor countries, with little education and their world view is dictated by religious leaders. Can you blame them for becoming upset when one of the very foundations of their existence is ridiculed by westerners, the same people who invade Muslim countries and long ago crusaded the middle east?

The issue is not Islam as a religion, but the state of many Islamic countries. Religious leaders can spread whatever bullshit they want and the uneducated, indoctrinated masses will buy it. If you think that this is due to Islams "oppressive nature", just look at Europe a few centuries ago.

 

[Llama]

So all religious people has to be fundamentalists, or they're not religious? Every single religion on earth "Cherry picks". Just because there is a tiny, obscure passage in a holy book written thousands of years ago doesn't mean it has to be followed, otherwise religions would become obsolete. Just look at Christianity, most of it has little resemblance to the Churches during roman times, or just 500 years ago.

On Christianity. If you do not follow the old testament, you are NOT a Christian. Sorry to stamp on your head there but you can't sugar coat it, that's the way it is.
That being said, I don't want to side track the argument, so any objections can be dealt with in PM's.

 

[Absinthe]

So all religious people has to be fundamentalists, or they're not religious? Every single religion on earth "Cherry picks". Just because there is a tiny, obscure passage in a holy book written thousands of years ago doesn't mean it has to be followed, otherwise religions would become obsolete. Just look at Christianity, most of it has little resemblance to the Churches during roman times, or just 500 years ago.

Well, yes. That would make them obsolete, wouldn't it?

...

:cheese:

 

[jverne]

So all religious people has to be fundamentalists, or they're not religious? Every single religion on earth "Cherry picks". Just because there is a tiny, obscure passage in a holy book written thousands of years ago doesn't mean it has to be followed, otherwise religions would become obsolete. Just look at Christianity, most of it has little resemblance to the Churches during roman times, or just 500 years ago.

You're right in that Islam is more "medieval" than most of Christianity for example, and that fundamentalism is more common. That doesn't mean that the entire religion is "a cancer" or evil. The vast majority of Muslims live in poor countries, with little education and their world view is dictated by religious leaders. Can you blame them for becoming upset when one of the very foundations of their existence is ridiculed by westerners, the same people who invade Muslim countries and long ago crusaded the middle east?

The issue is not Islam as a religion, but the state of many Islamic countries. Religious leaders can spread whatever bullshit they want and the uneducated, indoctrinated masses will buy it. If you think that this is due to Islams "oppressive nature", just look at Europe a few centuries ago.

1. yes, you prick, you just owned yourself.
you must follow every word of it to the letter or otherwise you can't be called a true follower of a certain religion, but more of a wannabe, stupid hypocrite who follows only the things that suit him. thats WRONG.

i'm amazed why religion hasn't gone obsolete yet. obviously there are to many stupid ignorants left out there

2.oh but i'm not talking about islam in iran or afganistan. i'm talking about islam in the west.

1. europe a few centuries ago was almost more civilized than islam is now.

 

[Tagaziel]

1. yes, you prick, you just owned yourself.
you must follow every word of it to the letter or otherwise you can't be called a true follower of a certain religion, but more of a wannabe, stupid hypocrite who follows only the things that suit him. thats WRONG.

i'm amazed why religion hasn't gone obsolete yet. obviously there are to many stupid ignorants left out there

2.oh but i'm not talking about islam in iran or afganistan. i'm talking about islam in the west.

1. europe a few centuries ago was almost more civilized than islam is now.

You do realize that your holy outrage is self-ownage on a far greater scale?

 

[jverne]

You do realize that your holy outrage is self-ownage on a far greater scale?

please explain.
i'm not outraged. i'm just suprized by the level of thinking some people have.

 

[jverne]

well...i'm sorry for calling some of you people really harsh things, it's the internet, i get carried away quickly.

i'll be more polite from now on, but don't expect any less mocking if you plan to post such ridiculous things.

other than that, i won't apologize for anything, my position is firm.

 

[mastapenguin]

Heh, I'm disappointed I didn't get into this conversation earlier.

It always weirds me out when someone says "If you don't follow a holy writ to the letter, start to finish, then you're not religious". Because any decent student of holy writ figures out that they are absolutely filled with contradictions upon contradictions. Personally, my experience is with the Bible, so I couldn't really tell you about Islam specifically. But, suffice to say there are enough phrases and enough different interpretations to support ANY agenda.

Also, the constant media coverage of Muslim people demanding adherence to Sharia law is somewhat misleading. The thing about news is that it is always dominated by the most vocal. I somehow doubt that these righteously indignant Muslims took a completely unbiased poll of every Muslim in the UK and made sure the majority agreed with them before they went on camera. And you don't hear as many Christians complain about "Western Culture" because "Western Culture" has its historical roots in Christianity. No, what vexes me most about the situation is the politicians acquiescing to what is obviously a minority group.

And finally, pertaining to the treatment of daughters in Muslim families which have moved to "Western" countries: I know a girl who was treated the exact same way, but her family was Irish Catholic. Islam isn't the reason for bad parenting, its just an excuse.

 

[Eejit]

On Christianity. If you do not follow the old testament, you are NOT a Christian. Sorry to stamp on your head there but you can't sugar coat it, that's the way it is.
That being said, I don't want to side track the argument, so any objections can be dealt with in PM's.

Yeah Catholicism isn't Christian. Neither are ANY other Christian churches which promote Jesus' teachings over the Old Testament (e.g. eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek).
I'm sure they'll thank you for pointing out that the vast majority of Christians and Christian organisations aren't actually Christian, because they follow the teachings of Christ.

 

[Llama]

Yeah. It's tough being right all the time.

I hope you weren't trying to be sarcastic.

 

[Solaris]

It amuses me when people from the west anti-war movement talk about Britan and the USA invading 'Muslim countries' like Iraq or Afganistan and how that is good justifcation for other Muslims to be annoyed and possbilly become terrorists.

Iraq was run by largely secular psuedo-communists who ran a brutal dictatorship that went out of it's way to persecute Islamic groups (Al-quedia or the Taliban for example) who threatened it's rule.

Also; these are the same people who say Islam is a religion of peice and suicide bombers are crazed fundamentalists yet then by calling Baathist Iraq a 'Muslim' country are equating Islam with the brutallity of Sadamm.

Or else if they are talking about the population of Iraq, we are not at war with them. We did not invade a Muslim country anymore than we did an arabic one, or a deserty sandy one.

If anything we liberated a 'Muslim country' as the people are now free to be Muslims and join whatever religious militas they want.

 

[Laivasse]

Pro Iraq War now, Solaris? It's hard to know what extreme-left or extreme-right guff you'll regurgitate next...

Or else if they are talking about the population of Iraq, we are not at war with them.

We did, however, cause 100's of 1000's of them to die (actually wasn't the last death toll topping a million...?). Either indirectly, through the destruction of infrastructure, or directly, by blowing them to bits/shooting them in the face because we decided they could be classed as collateral damage and that no one would care.

The point isn't whether muslims are justified in viewing the Iraq war as violence against Islam, but whether the war could be considered a radicalising influence in people who are already pissed off 1) because they're muslim and they're always pissed off, 2) feel disenchanted and politically voiceless in (British) society - because what sane person doesn't feel that way, considering - and 3) would view the war as the racist foreign policy of a country that is clearly pervaded by a subtle prejudice against darker-skinned people; let's face it, we live in a society where the police can shoot a man's head to bits for no worse crime than his being olive-skinned, and then suffer no recrimination for it. The whitewash surrounding the de Menezes shooting sickens me, incidentally.

So when people say that our foreign policy creates terrorists, they don't mean that terrorism is necessarily justified. That is a straw man cooked up by Blair's doublespeak spin c*ntbags, and is akin to saying 'You don't support the war? You want British servicemen to DIE?!?' It liquifies my shit to see that people still buy into it. No, when people say that our foreign policy endangers us, they mean that it creates further hatred of our country in people who are already looking for an excuse to lash back at it. Rational justification doesn't come into it, nor does it have to for people to be able to make that assertion. If you walk through a shitty part of town at the dead of night, you may be quite likely to get beaten up and mugged - but telling a person that doesn't mean that you think a mugger would be justified in doing that to him.

Having said that, if there was a reason for getting involved in Iraq other than tagging onto Bush's coat tails then I'd be all for it in spite of the consequences, but...

Where muslims go wrong, or at least one of the countless places they go wrong, is that they cry racism because they want islam to be seen as a race but it just ****ing isn't. It is a belief system and a shitty one at that.

Another place they go wrong is that they demand the wrong rights for themselves. Rights that they absolutely should have, and rights that may be denied them (and a lot of others in British society), are the right to walk around without fear of being unjustifiably shot by police, without being stopped-and-searched without justification, without being detained for months without trial, or even the right to be able to stand up and stop their government from entering a bullshit war. There is an injustice there, because I believe that muslims are more the victims of our horrible surveillance state than anybody else (see the travesty at Forest Gate, just down the road from where I used to live).

However, when muslims get hot under the collar about something it's usually the wrong thing entirely. They start demanding rights that they absolutely shouldn't have, such as the right to obstruct freedom of expression because they consider it offensive, whenever someone dares to not pay the sufficient amount of respect to their magical idols. Ironically, the disgusting middle-class white Blairites tend to rally behind muslims on absurd issues like this, while neglecting to mention all the ways in which British society does need to be fixed, or ways in which they are otherwise ****ing muslims over.

 

[nurizeko]

So all religious people has to be fundamentalists, or they're not religious?

Yes in a nutshell.



TBH I find it funny how folk cherry pick and all go their own separate denominations, all proclaiming they know the irrefutable truth of god or whatever.

Doesn't any Christian ever look at that amusingly dumb situation and realize no-one is even near right?.

 

[hasan]

I'm joining this thread very very very late .. (it's been a long time since I came here anyway)

I skipped some pages ..

Arabs hate America because of strictly political issues. Arabs don't hate Japan, Brazil, etc. (All of Arabs were raised watching dubbed Japanese Anime, it's a very intimate part of our childhood)

As for the OP complaining because Islam forbids homosexuality and prostitution: dude if that's why you hate Islam then you're really messed up!!!!! I bet you have no life??!!

Yes, like it or not, Islam is not just a belief in your heart but a set of rules and conducts for every aspect of your life. If you don't like that; it's your problem.


I don't know why but I feel a huge sphere of stupidity when a citizen of the most imperialist country on the planet dismisses Islam for being an imperial religion!
You talk about wars in Islam, as if your country, America, is a very peaceful country, trying hard to survive in this world of monsters, without harming anyone!!

Your freedom of sex and blasphemy doesn't mean anything to us; at all!!!
That's not our concept of freedom at all, in fact it's the concept exactly the opposite of freedom: being a slave to your lowly desires.
If you think this idea is barbaric; and that modern thought must allow freedom of sex in every sense of the word; then go hit your head on the wall; we don't give s*** for your concepts of modernism.

While ridiculing Islam might be considered a form of freedom; it's not something that an Islamic state can tolerate. If you think that makes Islam a bad religion, well, too bad for you.
Can you burn the US Flag inside the US in public?? I sort of doubt that!! You definitely can't do it in a public protest/demonstration.

That's not to say we're gonna go around and force your countries to follow Islamic laws.
In the time of Prophet Muhemmed (salla allahu alayhi wa sallam), he made a group of muslims escape from Mecca and go to Ethiopia, so they became a muslim minority in a Christian countries. (so there actually is an Islamic vision for muslim minorities living in non-muslim countries and what they should do)
The king of that country embraced Islam during the life of the prophet and wrote him a message, but the prophet (pboh) didn't order him to enforce Islamic laws.

So don't worry, Muslims in the US don't want to turn your country into an Islamic state. Even if the president became muslims, Islam doesn't tell him to force America to be an Islamic state. (why is everyone afraid that Obama might be secretly a Muslim??)

Well, unless the majority of Americans become Muslims, in which case it will become a muslim country .. and it will follow naturally ..

The history of wars/battles during the life of the prophet wasn't based directly on religious basis, but rather on political basis. He allied with the jews against his tribe in Mecca, just because the jews weren't his political enemy at the time, while his own tribe persecuted him and his followers. He fought the jews afterwards because they became enemies with the muslims politically.

There are two concepts of "voilent" Jihad in islam (if you wish to call it so)

one for defending: when another force invades your land, you have to protect your land against that force. (i.e. resistance)

The other is for attacking: it doesn't say you should force people to become muslims. it says that the Islamic state should be a super power in order to be able to spread Islam.

If you want, you can think of the US being a super power trying to spread democracy! Not that I believe that this is true or anything .. but a concept that even an American (read: idiot) can relate to.

Iraq was run by largely secular psuedo-communists who ran a brutal dictatorship that went out of it's way to persecute Islamic groups (Al-quedia or the Taliban for example) who threatened it's rule.

Dude are you nuts? there was no Qaida in Iraq, not to mention Taliban!! which is a strictly afghani movement.

Yes, Saddam did prosecute Islamist groups, and he also prosecuted a whole bunch of other political groups, so you're correct on this one.

The Baath party is theoretically secular, (it was founded by a christian man so it can't be islamic), however, practically, the ideology of the Baath died long ago, and what remained is only the governing institutions.
Saddam used religion for propaganda, so you can't really say he's secular, yet he wasn't politically an Islamist either.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Your freedom of sex and blasphemy doesn't mean anything to us; at all!!!
That's not our concept of freedom at all, in fact it's the concept exactly the opposite of freedom: being a slave to your lowly desires.
If you think this idea is barbaric; and that modern thought must allow freedom of sex in every sense of the word; then go hit your head on the wall; we don't give s*** for your concepts of modernism.

On the other, we do give a **** how you treat women and homosexuals. We do care about how women are beaten, little girls are married to old men and gays are stoned to death in a disgusting travesty of human rights and simple moral conduct. But then, its okay to treat them like that isn't? Its okay to cut peoples hands off for stealing some bread, or murdering someone because "they're a witch".

You do not understand what freedom is, your brainwashed and whats more you contribute to the enslaving and muderering of innocent people.

 

[Absinthe]

It's okay, hasan. You can hold onto your precious, regressive, ****ing stupid codes of conduct. And I applaud that you're not clamoring to force your woefully retarded ideology onto others, instead keeping the garbage to your dumb self.

I salute you.

 

[hasan]

On the other, we do give a **** how you treat women and homosexuals. We do care about how women are beaten, little girls are married to old men and gays are stoned to death in a disgusting travesty of human rights and simple moral conduct. But then, its okay to treat them like that isn't? Its okay to cut peoples hands off for stealing some bread, or murdering someone because "they're a witch".

You do not understand what freedom is, your brainwashed and whats more you contribute to the enslaving and muderering of innocent people.

No, you're the one who doesn't understand what freedom is.

stupid, I care when women are beaten of forced to be married by their families.
I care when ignorants commit crimes in the name of Islam ..


We care when alqaida goes around to kill people in the name of Islam, and we don't just raise our voice against them; we fight them.

I also care that you're concepts of freedom of sex should never be accepted in our societies.

and no, it's not ok to cut your hand just because you stole a piece of bread; you're as ignorant of Islam as the extremists are (in fact it's no coincidence that both your interpretations of it agree; they both stem from the same ignorance)

 

[hasan]

It's okay, hasan. You can hold onto your precious, regressive, ****ing stupid codes of conduct. And I applaud that you're not clamoring to force your woefully retarded ideology onto others, instead keeping the garbage to your dumb self.

I salute you.

I think your codes are the stupid ones. and I really hate it when you try to impose them on us in the name of freedom/modernism/democracy

 

[Absinthe]

Oh, my bad. I'll try to do less imposing in the future.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

No, you're the one who doesn't understand what freedom is.

Remarkable, because I believe that it is the ability to do what you want. My bad if it is not.

stupid, I care when women are beaten of forced to be married by their families.
I care when ignorants commit crimes in the name of Islam ..

And yet do you do anything about it? You oppose democracy and freedom, you said that yourself, and so this kind of thing will keep going.

We care when alqaida goes around to kill people in the name of Islam, and we don't just raise our voice against them; we fight them.

Thats fine.

I also care that you're concepts of freedom of sex should never be accepted in our societies.

So two males or females should never be allowed to marry DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABOUT AS VOLUINTARY AS BREATHING?

and no, it's not ok to cut your hand just because you stole a piece of bread; you're as ignorant of Islam as the extremists are (in fact it's no coincidence that both your interpretations of it agree; they both stem from the same ignorance)

Perhaps they do, but I don't care what the true interpreatation of the Koran is, I care about what is going on in countries that use islamic doctrine, right or wrong, to oppress innocent people.

 

[jverne]

I'm joining this thread very very very late .. (it's been a long time since I came here anyway)

I skipped some pages ..

Arabs hate America because of strictly political issues. Arabs don't hate Japan, Brazil, etc. (All of Arabs were raised watching dubbed Japanese Anime, it's a very intimate part of our childhood)

As for the OP complaining because Islam forbids homosexuality and prostitution: dude if that's why you hate Islam then you're really messed up!!!!! I bet you have no life??!!

Yes, like it or not, Islam is not just a belief in your heart but a set of rules and conducts for every aspect of your life. If you don't like that; it's your problem.


I don't know why but I feel a huge sphere of stupidity when a citizen of the most imperialist country on the planet dismisses Islam for being an imperial religion!
You talk about wars in Islam, as if your country, America, is a very peaceful country, trying hard to survive in this world of monsters, without harming anyone!!

Your freedom of sex and blasphemy doesn't mean anything to us; at all!!!
That's not our concept of freedom at all, in fact it's the concept exactly the opposite of freedom: being a slave to your lowly desires.
If you think this idea is barbaric; and that modern thought must allow freedom of sex in every sense of the word; then go hit your head on the wall; we don't give s*** for your concepts of modernism.

While ridiculing Islam might be considered a form of freedom; it's not something that an Islamic state can tolerate. If you think that makes Islam a bad religion, well, too bad for you.
Can you burn the US Flag inside the US in public?? I sort of doubt that!! You definitely can't do it in a public protest/demonstration.

That's not to say we're gonna go around and force your countries to follow Islamic laws.
In the time of Prophet Muhemmed (salla allahu alayhi wa sallam), he made a group of muslims escape from Mecca and go to Ethiopia, so they became a muslim minority in a Christian countries. (so there actually is an Islamic vision for muslim minorities living in non-muslim countries and what they should do)
The king of that country embraced Islam during the life of the prophet and wrote him a message, but the prophet (pboh) didn't order him to enforce Islamic laws.

So don't worry, Muslims in the US don't want to turn your country into an Islamic state. Even if the president became muslims, Islam doesn't tell him to force America to be an Islamic state. (why is everyone afraid that Obama might be secretly a Muslim??)

Well, unless the majority of Americans become Muslims, in which case it will become a muslim country .. and it will follow naturally ..

The history of wars/battles during the life of the prophet wasn't based directly on religious basis, but rather on political basis. He allied with the jews against his tribe in Mecca, just because the jews weren't his political enemy at the time, while his own tribe persecuted him and his followers. He fought the jews afterwards because they became enemies with the muslims politically.

There are two concepts of "voilent" Jihad in islam (if you wish to call it so)

one for defending: when another force invades your land, you have to protect your land against that force. (i.e. resistance)

The other is for attacking: it doesn't say you should force people to become muslims. it says that the Islamic state should be a super power in order to be able to spread Islam.

If you want, you can think of the US being a super power trying to spread democracy! Not that I believe that this is true or anything .. but a concept that even an American (read: idiot) can relate to.


Dude are you nuts? there was no Qaida in Iraq, not to mention Taliban!! which is a strictly afghani movement.

Yes, Saddam did prosecute Islamist groups, and he also prosecuted a whole bunch of other political groups, so you're correct on this one.

The Baath party is theoretically secular, (it was founded by a christian man so it can't be islamic), however, practically, the ideology of the Baath died long ago, and what remained is only the governing institutions.
Saddam used religion for propaganda, so you can't really say he's secular, yet he wasn't politically an Islamist either.

LOL

1. i'm not american

2. yes that is why i hate islam. you forbid things based on a stupid book and not only forbid but punish severely. i'm messed up, just because i believe nothing is immoral unless it has a practical argument for it...like homosexuality, prostitution...not murder or pedophilia because those two things are counterproductive for the whole society and thus i'd consider them "immoral".
punishment should be trough secular code of law based on practical, scientifically approved studies.

i do have a life and i'm quite satisfied, thank you

3. yes i agree islam is a stupid restrictive set of rules that prohibits human development.
i really wouldn't have a problem if you religious nutjobs lived on an isolated island, but it gets me a bit cranked up that 40% of UK muslims want sharia law.

4.ok sorry i don't understand your type of freedom, but it sounds pretty shitty.
my idea barbaric...hahaa...man, come on you can't be serious. so hows your stoning business coming along? i heard it's quite the hit nowadays

5. you're talking about nationalism here, burning flags. it has already been discussed. pah why would i do that, but anyway it should be allowed unless somebody gets physically hurt. if you get insulted by that...you are obviously a nutjob yourself.

6. maybe muslims don't spread islam by the sword but they try to exploit every chance they get.

7. reading about the prophet really gives me a sense that islam is truly a political religion made up solely for that purpose.

being restricted by some old ink on paper, must really suck.


edit: i really hope you get the second point

 

[Absinthe]

Amidst his ramblings about dumb Americans (I like how we get singled out in a topic comprised of multinational criticism), there existed a valid point though.

A lot of countries that have Islam heavily infused in their government are willingly supported by their people. It's like exercising the right to be free from freedom. Which is silly, but whatever...

 

[RjD]

I also care that you're concepts of freedom of sex should never be accepted in our societies.

Hasan, that would be okay if Islamic society was something a person could "opt out" of.

Allow me to explain. If a person A is born in an Islamic society but does not agree with regulations of sexual life imposed on basis of opinion of a deity which is not yet proved to exist, it would be fair to allow A to opt out of this religion, just as you can opt out of Christian religion (which also imposes regulations based on an unproven and fairly silly premise). The idea here being that if person does not harm you, you should not harm him, even if he does not believe share all of your ideas and values.

However, it is not possible to opt out of Islam. this is considered a capital offense punishable by death.

This in fact means that in Islamic country one does not get a chance to leave the religious social circuit (it is punishable). Even more, someone born within such a society does not have much choice about whether he should be a believer in Islam and follow all of its supernaturally-motivated rules
(if one choses not to, he can be punished by death, according to Islamic tradition)

This means that your societies, even when not run by murderous fanatics seeking to sabotage and terrorize foreign countries, are very repressive towards free thought and self-expression when it comes to your own citizens (funny fact, Christians used to be like that some 300-500 years ago).

Think of it this way - you can openly be a conservative Muslim in Europe and lead the life you like, but you can not openly be an atheist or agnostic in Pakistan and have a lifestyle you like (well, one could try, but that will leave him two options - emigration or death).

So it appears that as long as it is not possible for a person to abandon Islam and continue to function is your society, it is you, not "teh west" , forcefully imposing your values on others.

 

[hasan]

Edit: suddenly three news posts popped up in the last two minutes ...
This response (Was) to atomic piggy

I do care when stupid people in Islamic countries abuse Islam.
I mean I care when they oppress people to begin with, even if they don't use Islam to their support.
I care more when they think they can use Islam to their support because if the idea that Islam is a justification for their act then everything the Islamist movement has worked for will go to vain and reform will never happen.

See, that's an internal issue in our own countries

on the other hand, should I not care when your country lead a war against my country and invade it??

So two males or females should never be allowed to marry DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS ABOUT AS VOLUINTARY AS BREATHING?

Maybe you have some evidence that I don't. I'm sure it's debatable, though, I'm not in a position to debate it. What I do know is that it is possible for someone to start having homosexual thoughts because of some outside stimuli. So you can't say that all gays are born that way.

If someone has homosexual thoughts then I care about him, not by allowing him to perform the act .., but by helping him overcome it.
It's a mental issue; if someone is having thoughts of suicide, should you just let him do it???? or help him overcome it??!

We don't allow sex outside marriage; and there's no such thing as a gay marriage.
If the act does happen, well too bad,
We don't go around to check if people are gay, but we don't allow the practice to be public.
It's just the law, and just like any law; follow it and you'll be safe. (not that's this law is implemented anywhere .. )

 

[Absinthe]

Because homosexuals really need your help in overcoming their rampant gayness.

 

[Kyorisu]

Your freedom of sex and blasphemy doesn't mean anything to us; at all!!!

That's not our concept of freedom at all, in fact it's the concept exactly the opposite of freedom: being a slave to your lowly desires.

I fail to understand this. No one is being a slave to anything. Being free means you have the freedom to partake in whatever private acts you wish (among other things). Some people may be involved in acts that are rather extreme but that has little bearing on the rest of the general population.

If you think this idea is barbaric; and that modern thought must allow freedom of sex in every sense of the word; then go hit your head on the wall; we don't give s*** for your concepts of modernism.

So it is barbaric then? In this day and age there is no reason for societies to be held back by the old ideas of what is right and wrong.

While ridiculing Islam might be considered a form of freedom; it's not something that an Islamic state can tolerate.

And why is that? Religious and non religious people get ridiculed all the time and so do many countries and brands of product. Hell everything is ridiculed for some reason eventually. You may as well tolerate it, turning a blind eye is far easier than caring about what people have to say about Islam.

If you think that makes Islam a bad religion, well, too bad for you.

How is that bad for me?

Can you burn the US Flag inside the US in public?? I sort of doubt that!! You definitely can't do it in a public protest/demonstration.

I'm Australian the Australian flag represent my country not my religious beliefs. I wouldn't dream of burning one.

That's not to say we're gonna go around and force your countries to follow Islamic laws.

Good.

Well, unless the majority of Americans become Muslims, in which case it will become a muslim country .. and it will follow naturally ..

That'll never happen for all the reasons you hate the ideas of a modern society.

If someone has homosexual thoughts then I care about him, not by allowing him to perform the act .., but by helping him overcome it.
It's a mental issue; if someone is having thoughts of suicide, should you just let him do it???? or help him overcome it??!

Comparing homosexuality to suicide, you're the crazy one.

We don't allow sex outside marriage; and there's no such thing as a gay marriage.
If the act does happen, well too bad,
We don't go around to check if people are gay, but we don't allow the practice to be public.
It's just the law, and just like any law; follow it and you'll be safe. (not that's this law is implemented anywhere .. )

More aspects of backwards thinking.

 

[RjD]

Yes, like it or not, Islam is not just a belief in your heart but a set of rules and conducts for every aspect of your life. If you don't like that; it's your problem.

It is a problem for someone who
1) Is born in an Islamic state
2)But at the same time not willing to live by a code of ethics based on a pair of severely unproved claims (unproven claim that a superior intelligent power exists in the world, and unproven claim that this power cares about people and wants them to behave in a particular way)

 

[RjD]

It's just the law, and just like any law; follow it and you'll be safe. (not that's this law is implemented anywhere .. )

It is not like "any law"

It is a very special kind of law, a religious one. As all religious codes of conduct, it is based on a pair of severely unproved claims

1)unproven claim that a superior intelligent "power" exists in the world
2) unproven claim that this "power" cares about people and wants them to behave in a particular way)

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

on the other hand, should I not care when your country lead a war against my country and invade it??

Trust me, nobody here wanted us to invade Iraq, Tony Blair and George Bush broke international law when they did it and they should both be put on trail.

Maybe you have some evidence that I don't. I'm sure it's debatable, though, I'm not in a position to debate it. What I do know is that it is possible for someone to start having homosexual thoughts because of some outside stimuli. So you can't say that all gays are born that way.

Actually I can, because they are.

If someone has homosexual thoughts then I care about him, not by allowing him to perform the act .., but by helping him overcome it.
It's a mental issue; if someone is having thoughts of suicide, should you just let him do it???? or help him overcome it??!

Two different things. If someone is a homosexual it is none of your buisness, and they do not "need help". There is nothing wrong with them.

We don't allow sex outside marriage; and there's no such thing as a gay marriage.

*checks law, reads the bit about gay marriage* wow, your right, gay marriage does not exist.

We don't go around to check if people are gay, but we don't allow the practice to be public.
It's just the law, and just like any law; follow it and you'll be safe. (not that's this law is implemented anywhere .. )

Your not allowed to have sex in public here either, but completely outlawing certain sexual practices and not allowing sex in public are two radically different things.