If Bush really lied to go to Iraq would you still support him?

[Raziaar]

actually I got it from here ......it's pretty obvious I didnt write it ...read it and you'll see why


so do you want to try answering any of it ..or will you just sit there and nitpick the details that have nothing to do with what we're talking about?

Okay... so you copied it off 'another' website then... which copied it off another no doubt, which copied it off another. You guys are funny! Do your own debates!

Yes... it is pretty obvious you didn't write it. I imigine how many other things you copied off other people. Its not nitpicking... its the fact that you're taking credit for other peoples work. Frankly, i'm not here to refute anything, because i'm not debating anything... i'm just laughing at how you take credit for others work.

You didn't SAY it was somebody elses... you didn't even put it in quotes. You said something along the lines of "I compiled a list too", and then copy and paste that like its your own work. Good job!

 

[Tr0n]

That's all ya'll ever do is just copy and paste links so ya'll can try to prove each other wrong.Which sadly doesn't do a god damn thing.

Ya'll still bitch back and forth.Oh well.

 

[CptStern]

Okay... so you copied it off 'another' website then... which copied it off another no doubt, which copied it off another. You guys are funny! Do your own debates!

Yes... it is pretty obvious you didn't write it. I imigine how many other things you copied off other people. Its not nitpicking... its the fact that you're taking credit for other peoples work.

you're welcome to find ANY evidence that I plagerize ..go ahead

Frankly, i'm not here to refute anything, because i'm not debating anything...

ya that's very apparent

i'm just laughing at how you take credit for others work.

I've never taken credit for other's work ..I ALWAYS list sources

You didn't SAY it was somebody elses... you didn't even put it in quotes. You said something along the lines of "I compiled a list too", and then copy and paste that like its your own work. Good job!

look, I'm at work I dont have a lot of time to post and I just forgot the source link ...get over it ..I NEVER TAKE CREDIT FOR OTHER PEOPLE"S WORK ...you can try to disprove me if you'd like: there's over 10,000 posts, get to work

 

[Raziaar]

That's all ya'll ever do is just copy and paste links so ya'll can try to prove each other wrong.Which sadly doesn't do a god damn thing.

Ya'll still bitch back and forth.Oh well.

Its one thing to post links you find and compile yourself.... Thats what a debate it... its finding facts and information to support your side.

Its *NOT* copying an entire side's effort and debate work and claiming it as your own.

But... back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[CptStern]

razaair for once try to think laterally ...who the **** cares where it comes from LOOK at the damn links READ them come to your own conclusion ...if you wont even bother to read any of it, why would you even bother to participate in this or any other debate? ...sometimes I think some of you participate in the politics forum just to hear your own voice ...because the ignorance here is palpable


btw I'm waiting razaair ...if you're going to accuse me of something so serious as plagiarism than have the balls to back yourself up

 

[Raziaar]

btw I'm waiting razaair ...if you're going to accuse me of something so serious as plagiarism than have the balls to back yourself up

Evidence speaks for itself. I didn't see any source link or quotes on that post. It was just... Here's what I compiled! Bam! And you actually said that... you said, "I can compile one too". You didn't compile anything stern!

I can compile one too:

 

[CptStern]

I've explained myself on that one post ...had I intentionally copied that work and claimed it as mine ..why didnt I change the text that clearly proves I didnt write it?



...surely out of 10,372 posts you should be able to find multiple examples of me plaigerizing


either PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that I plaigerized someone elses work, address the points presented in the link OR SHUT UP! stop wasting time, stop derailing this thread, stop avoiding the issue by nitpicking





I'm waiting

 

[Raziaar]

I've explained myself on that one post ...had I intentionally copied that work and claimed it as mine ..why didnt I change the text that clearly proves I didnt write it?



...surely out of 10,372 posts you should be able to find multiple examples of me plaigerizing


either PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that I plaigerized someone elses work, address the points presented in the link OR SHUT UP! stop wasting time, stop derailing this thread, stop avoiding the issue by nitpicking





I'm waiting

What are you waiting on Stern? I didn't say you *DID* claim other peoples work in the past. I said I imigine if you did. I 'did' say you posted that large amount of information as your own, when you said "I can compile one too" Don't ask me why you didn't alter it any... I'm not here to defend your intelligence.

Yes... it is pretty obvious you didn't write it. I imigine how many other things you copied off other people. Its not nitpicking... its the fact that you're taking credit for other peoples work. Frankly, i'm not here to refute anything, because i'm not debating anything... i'm just laughing at how you take credit for others work.

So as you can see... I don't have anything to back up here, except the one time in this thread, which indeed speaks for itself. So why would I need to go back and read all your other 10000 posts? I have better things to do than that... just like you had better things to do than make up your own debate.

But yes you're right. I did unintentionally derail this topic. Lets get it back on target.

 

[CptStern]

"I imigine how many other things you copied off other people"


that's an accusation razaair ...as I've stated prove it or shut up

 

[Raziaar]

"I imigine how many other things you copied off other people"


that's an accusation razaair ...as I've stated prove it or shut up

Its not an accusation. Its me imigining just how many times you COULD have. LOL. Come on Stern, quit grasping at straws here. Whats done is done. I'm sure we've all plagarized at least once in our life. I just did it in kindergarten, not when I was 30+ years old.

Okay. Dont respond to this, unless it involves the thread topic!





No... I would not support bush if he intentionally lied. I would want him out of office immediately.

But... that wasn't the case, since he didn't do it as a deceitful lie... so...

 

[CptStern]

Its not an accusation. Its me imigining just how many times you COULD have. LOL. Come on Stern, quit grasping at straws here. Whats done is done. I'm sure we've all plagarized at least once in my life. I just did it in kindergarten, not when I was 30+ years old.

you just accused me again ...dont pussy-foot around the issue. either come up with clear evidence or SHUT UP

No... I would not support bush if he intentionally lied. I would want him out of office immediately.

But... that wasn't the case, since he didn't do it as a deceitful lie... so...

there's no question the bush admin intentionally lied, start the impeachment process:


"After the president returned to the White House on Sept. 11, he and his top advisers, including Clarke, began holding meetings about how to respond and retaliate. As Clarke writes in his book, he expected the administration to focus its military response on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. He says he was surprised that the talk quickly turned to Iraq.

"Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq," Clarke said to Stahl. "And we all said ... no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it. "


"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection, but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection."

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this. "


"Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.' "

 

[Raziaar]

I can compile one too:

Hmmmmmm.

 

[CptStern]

hehe pretty pathetic of you razaair ..cant debate the topic with facts so you resort to the lowest common denominator: attacking the messenger


"dont pussy-foot around the issue. either come up with clear evidence or SHUT UP"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Well, if Bush really lied about the Iraq war, my inclinations would lead me to believe he's not exactly the best President for what I want in Washington. Truthfully speaking, I don't think I would want to impeach him yet. We need more solid candidates available to us, and a better prepared American Public and Police, before we decide to impeach one of the most controversial figures in our modern history.

Lie or not however, I'll have to support his progress as a President until our troops complete whats needed of them.

 

[CptStern]

even though he sent 1800 americans to their deaths for nothing?

 

[Raziaar]

hehe pretty pathetic of you razaair ..cant debate the topic with facts so you resort to the lowest common denominator: attacking the messenger


"dont pussy-foot around the issue. either come up with clear evidence or SHUT UP"

I have no DESIRE to debate this topic. I have better things to do right now! I was just pointing you out as taking credit for somebody elses work. And i'm trying to leave the thread, but you just won't let me by keeping on posting insults and antagonistic things :-P

This is my last post on the whole plagarism subject. See you the next time it happens, stern! Ohh... I wouldn't post again trying to call me out, because I won't come. There's still plenty of healthy debate here to be had in the thread... but not in regards to your taking credit for somebody elses work... since that is set in stone.

Bye!

 

[K e r b e r o s]

To CptStern

So, trying to clean-up and rebuild from the mess we started is for nothing? Sorry, I consider that a lot of something Stern -- and they'll get my support no matter where they are; or where there from.

 

[CptStern]

So, trying to clean-up and rebuild from the mess we started is for nothing? Sorry, I consider that a lot of something Stern. If my troops are getting shot at, for nothing does'nt apply; for their lives however, does.

I dont understand what you're saying



anyways ...you can still achieve your goals and impeach bush at the same time ...dont you think he should be held accountable for his actions that led to the deaths of over 20,000 people? I mean 1800 of those are american citizens ...had a private citizen committed the same offense he'd have a date with a syringe


If you let him walk you'll have re-inforced the idea that many radical fundamentalists have of the US: that they support and carry out state terrorism

 

[CptStern]

I have no DESIRE to debate this topic. I have better things to do right now! I was just pointing you out as taking credit for somebody elses work. And i'm trying to leave the thread, but you just won't let me by keeping on posting insults and antagonistic things :-P

This is my last post on the whole plagarism subject. See you the next time it happens, stern! Ohh... I wouldn't post again trying to call me out, because I won't come. There's still plenty of healthy debate here to be had in the thread... but not in regards to your taking credit for somebody elses work... since that is set in stone.

Bye!

this is like debating a 2 year old with ADD


"since that is set in stone"


hilarious ...I dont think I've ever been accused of plaigerism ..boy did you ever figure me out ... :upstare:


oh and insults arent insults if what is said is the truth :E

 

[K e r b e r o s]

anyways ...you can still achieve your goals and impeach bush at the same time ...dont you think he should be held accountable for his actions that led to the deaths of over 20,000 people?

Unless he shot them himself, then no. Deaths are inevitable in warfare Stern, and I would'nt exactly call his orders attrocities that were intention based.

I believe the source of the information for the Iraq war however, should be held accountable.

you let him walk you'll have re-inforced the idea that many radical fundamentalists have of the US

Again, Bush lacks the responsibility of 9/11 and the London Bombings. Nethire were entirely known of, and if they were, it's of no consequence considering both governments are laying out tracks of denial.

 

[CptStern]

Unless he shot them himself, then no.

using your logic Hitler isnt responsible for the holocaust because he didnt actually push the button

Deaths are inevitable in warfare Stern, and I would'nt exactly call his orders attrocities that were intention based.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying, please clarify

I believe the source of the information for the Iraq war however, should be held accountable.

THE BUSH ADMIN WAS THE SOURCE:


"After the president returned to the White House on Sept. 11, he and his top advisers, including Clarke, began holding meetings about how to respond and retaliate. As Clarke writes in his book, he expected the administration to focus its military response on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. He says he was surprised that the talk quickly turned to Iraq.

"Rumsfeld was saying that we needed to bomb Iraq," Clarke said to Stahl. "And we all said ... no, no. Al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan. We need to bomb Afghanistan. And Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan. And there are lots of good targets in Iraq. I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it. "


"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection, but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years we've looked and there's just no connection."

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this. "


"Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.' "

Again, Bush lacks the responsibility of 9/11 and the London Bombings. Nethire were entirely known of, and if they were, it's of no consequence considering both governments are laying out tracks of denial.

dood, I'm being serious here when I say: "what the hell does that mean? what did you just say? it makes no sense!!!!"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

using your logic Hitler isnt responsible for the holocaust because he didnt actually push the button

He created the theory, but the physical guilt belongs to the people who perpetraited this theory into a living, breathing environment and who became violent, active controls from within it (as a result of following his doctrine). But the SS and the Gestapo, all where extensions fueled and created not only by Hitler and Himmler, but by the people themselves who filled their ranks, and most of them volunteered Stern.

It is those who pulled the triggers, slit the throats, lynched the necks, or pulled down the gas levers, that are entirely responsible for the deaths from the Holocaust. You dont hold random people for warcrimes Stern if they're not responsible, but you do hold the people who commited them.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying, please clarify

People die during war Stern, that much is inevitable. I dont see how these typical casualties, coming under the ranges of reasons from bombings to crossfire; from Shrapnel to Miss-directed fire, should be Bush's responsibility.

THE BUSH ADMIN WAS THE SOURCE:

Stories are propaganda, Stern. Have a link that proves it?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

dood, I'm being serious here when I say: "what the hell does that mean? what did you just say? it makes no sense!!!!"

If you dont understand my statements, then ignore them and move on.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

I always read these threads. Hilarious how they always transform into a pissing contest.

I don't think there is one person on the planet that would support their leader after lying to enter into a conflict that has cost the US almost 2,000 lives, countless Iraqi civilian casualties and billions of US dollars that will never be seen again. I do not support the war, but I support those over there fighting. Support of the two IS mutually exclusive. The effort and the lives at risk are two different things. We're over there, now we have to deal with it...end of story. I can't see were the argument exists on a foregone conclusion.

Accountability is huge here. Even though an inquiry will probobly never happen...all involved in any form of deception directed toward the American people, our Congress, and the UN should be held responsible for their actions. Even if it was poor intel, as leader of a nation it's his and his administration's responsibility to reference, cross-reference and rereference to make sure we're 95-100% accurate. Any incling of BS needs to be looked at under the microscope, period. There has been too large a cost for it to be any other way.

Another large problem is that this administration is taking a huge PR hit. They have the label of being mysterious and dishonest and it is not without warrant. They deserve it.It may be a whole slew of little white lies, mincing of words, or even a great deal of forgetfulness, but they have not been 100% upfront with the people that they are sworn to serve and protect. It's unacceptable. I've never seen as many retractions or simple denials from one administration in the face of overwhelming evidence that they either have said or done whatever it is they are denying. They need to be clearer in their claims and more in touch with the facts. Saying that Saddam has WMD and clear connections with al-Queada is far different from simply saying we had to remove a ruthless dictator...period. There are no WMDs and groups that are not al-Queada are simply not al-Queada. I understand the rhetoric and it may be part of the larger war on terror, but it is NOT clear. He needed to spell it out at the time....Saddam is a killer and a threat and he MAY have WMD. The reasoning is muddled, foggy and reaks of someone scrambling to save some face. This conflict is murky beyond belief. And now you have this Karl Rove mess....All this only adds to a bigger problem that is going to plague him and his administration until the day he leaves office...dishonesty.

I try to be as unbiased as possible, but if I were listening only to him and his administration...I would have no idea what was going on or where we were going.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ I can agree with that.

 

[CptStern]

He created the theory, but the physical guilt belongs to the people who perpetraited this theory into a living, breathing environment and who became violent, active controls from within it (as a result of following his doctrine). But the SS and the Gestapo, all where extensions fueled and created not only by Hitler and Himmler, but by the people themselves who filled their ranks, and most of them volunteered Stern.

It is those who pulled the triggers, slit the throats, lynched the necks, or pulled down the gas levers, that are entirely responsible for the deaths from the Holocaust. You dont hold random people for warcrimes Stern if they're not responsible, but you do hold the people who commited them.

so in other words if I order an assasination of someone ...I'm not responsible if that person turns up dead? sorry but a court of law would disagree with you

Stories are propaganda, Stern. Have a link that proves it?

/me slams head against wall ...I posted it, where you not apying attention? it comes from Bush's advisor on terrorism ..what else do you want? signed affidavits?

If you dont understand my statements, then ignore them and move on

I wasnt being sarcastic ...I truely didnt understand what you were saying

 

[lister]

most of u have voted NO, but u wouldnt have wanted all those beheadings and civil wars stopped b4 there escalate?

 

[Raziaar]

most of u have voted NO, but u wouldnt have wanted all those beheadings and civil wars stopped b4 there escalate?

Backing down ones efforts because a cowardly enemy kidnaps and beheads people is not proper conduct. Its only playing into sadistic peoples hands.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

most of u have voted NO, but u wouldnt have wanted all those beheadings and civil wars stopped b4 there escalate?

The point is always to stop it before it can happen or escalate to even more treacherous acts. I will never deny Iraq's shady dealings or complete nut of a ruler, but your point skirtails the question. No one wants those things to happen, but we're speaking after the fact....if you found out he flat out lied, would you support him??

Unfortunatly, those acts of terror still persist in Iraq and the war (as a whole) has not been an overwhelming success to the extent that most would say, in spite of his lies, I still support him. It's not like he lied, the war was a sweeping success, and we later found out about it. It would be interesting though if we were experiencing massive success and we later found out that he lied...just to see public reaction....would we be dissmissive....I have a feeling we would. He couldn't survive if it came out he lied...the success isn't there to fall back on.

 

[CptStern]

Backing down ones efforts because a cowardly enemy kidnaps and beheads people is not proper conduct. Its only playing into sadistic peoples hands.

yet the 7000 iraqi civilians who died during the combat phase of the invasion is proper conduct? he lied and as a result over 20,000 people died ...sorry but at any other time, in any other country he would be tried for crimes against humanity. If it was saddam who had invaded a country under fall pretenses the US would have been quick to attack him ...........oh, wait a sec ................... that sounds awfully familiar for some strange reason

 

[Raziaar]

yet the 7000 iraqi civilians who died during the combat phase of the invasion is proper conduct? he lied and as a result over 20,000 people died ...sorry but at any other time, in any other country he would be tried for crimes against humanity. If it was saddam who had invaded a country under fall pretenses the US would have been quick to attack him ...........oh, wait a sec ................... that sounds awfully familiar for some strange reason

The civilians that have died during the Iraq thing were not killed on purpose. On the other hand, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people on purpose... for fun. And yet you fight and fight over the past like you want him back in power, over some percieved technicality.

Saddam needed to be removed, he was an evil man... who murdered his own people for his enjoyment.

 

[CptStern]

The civilians that have died during the Iraq thing were not killed on purpose.

indiscrimate fire is not an accident ....that's 7000 mistakes ...seems kinda high to me ...but they have gotten better cuz in the first war over 30,000 iraqi civilians died from american bombs

On the other hand, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people on purpose... for fun.

no ones disputing he's a monster ...but when he was at his worst you called him friend ...the war and sanctions caused over 1.8 million iraqi civilian deaths ...over 500,000 of those were children ...cildren killed because of preventable diseases, cvhildren who died because the US used them as bargaining chip

And yet you fight and fight over the past like you want him back in power, over some percieved technicality.

I would never want him in power because I truely know how capable a monster he is ...but he was never as formidible a monster than when he had the US on his side

Saddam needed to be removed, he was an evil man... who murdered his own people for his enjoyment.

there's no doubt that saddam was a butcher and madman ...what's your excuse?

 

[outpost]

I'd say penis.






penis

 

[Absinthe]

Saddam needed to be removed, he was an evil man... who murdered his own people for his enjoyment.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's not the point. If the American people wanted to partake in a war based on that reasoning alone, we'd have a different case. As it stands, the war was begun under false pretenses.

You can talk about point over principle all you like, but I think it sets a very bad precedent and is dishonest to the nation.

Frankly, the moral justification of the war is a weak one any way. USA and Iraq would go down to the pub and knock back a few when Saddam was at his worst.

 

[gh0st]

plagiarism

n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work

I can compile one too:

Stern... I expected much better from you. Its easy to tell when you're lying because you misspell the same damn word a hundred different ways.

No one would support him if he was criminally lying. Unfortunately, some kook on a gaming message board is not going to pursuade anyone but his own delusional self that he is in fact lying.

 

[CptStern]

plagiarism

n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work

Stern... I expected much better from you. Its easy to tell when you're lying because you misspell the same damn word a hundred different ways.

No one would support him if he was criminally lying. Unfortunately, some kook on a gaming message board is not going to pursuade anyone but his own delusional self that he is in fact lying.

lol! I know what I did or didnt do ...so I really dont care what a couple of prepubescent mal-contents think about me ..you know sometimes I wish you knuckledraggers would spend as much time examining the facts as you do attacking me ..although I am a bit flattered with all this attention being paid on little ol me :E

 

[gh0st]

lol! I know what I did or didnt do ...so I really dont care what a couple of prepubescent mal-contents think about me ..you know sometimes I wish you knuckledraggers would spend as much time examining the facts as you do attacking me ..although I am a bit flattered with all this attention being paid on little ol me :E

At least this prepubescent knuckledragger knows how to spell. I love how when your spelling gets insulted you start typing perfectly, its really adorable stern.

dur dur PLAJARIZER LOL.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Okay, to clarify for CptStern.

I draw straws on a lot of topics; if I could pull needles from haystacks when involving a discussive comparison to Hitler and his followers, I would.

We can't mistake that he did'nt kill anyone personally, so the guilt of action involving the gun triggers pulled for the holocaust, is not his. I'll agree with you however, he was not all Sunshine and Kittens, and definately needed to be held responsible as the planner for these actions.

---Off the Hitler thing---

Now, for the whole Bush thing ...

Back in 2000, I was thrilled at the idea of Bush being President. I did'nt really like Al-Gore, and thought Bush to have a much better Personality then have the people running for those elections; AT the time.

Now, in 2005, I'am unsure of the man I elected and probably because I did'nt pay much attention to his Rhetoric. When the question is brought to me as, "Would you still follow him, or vote for him knowing that he lied?" I know my initial answer would be no, but I know my true answer would be yes for a time being.

At the time of the 2004 elections, a lot of controversy was in air; and only the moderate knew what was truth and lie. I voted for Bush, not because he lied or put us into the mess, but because I knew he would stay solid in keeping us where we were at the time.

Does'nt mean Kerry was any less for the job -- I wish Kerry would've won to bring a new face in our attempts to fight the Insurgency. Either way, each resolve would've had its own consequences, and thus far this resolve has'nt done too shabby. Anyway, so we figure now Bush is a liar -- my staying for keeping my vote despite the freshness I could've needed for our Oval Office, are these two reasons:

First, Politicians always lie -- its normal to expect of them; (and yes, even about their planned past, current, and future operations)

Second, Bush's resolve is actually gaining respect where we need it, and thats going to be critical to buy some of Hillary's or whatever else Candidate rises to compete for this nations presidency.

A reason unmentioned, is that this kind of hardballing against the Insurgents, will teach us valuable lessons to how Insurgents function in warfare. With this constant make of mistakes, we've been able to rechange our positions on how a country should fight, and is capable of fighting. We're adapting in a way that we should be; though I'am sad for the loss of life, and even sadder I cannot jone my comrades, I would much prefer this be done as is to educate the public and teach us using real examples of failure and success, then fake ones we can only dream of.

I apologize to those who feel differently, my sympathy is with you. But, I however, view this a different way.

 

[TheSomeone]

Wait, hold on... He didn't lie?