If I were Gabe...

[AgentSmith]

What I was saying is that Valve wants it both ways - they want to say it is just a port and not a sequal but then they make it HL2's MP which makes it part of a sequal.

Is pretty wiggy I know but that is my point. I think they shortchanged us in not giving us a real Source MP or at least by not giving us a really good, finished, polished port. At least ONE of those is the bare minimum but we got neither.

 

[SAJ]

11 pages, wow, this thread has been quite a good read (if overlong).
I have reservations about adding to this arguement, but I have a couple of points Id like to make.

Firstly, valve`s decision to use cs:s as the sole mp component, is(as I see it) pimarily financial. The truth seems to be that ,with a strong single player element , there is simply no gain to be made by providing a fully designed and implemented mp game in the same package.
Conjecture, I know, but consider the other major players this year (far cry, doom3) , both brought new engines to the mix and both sold almost exclusively on the strength of the single player experience. Add to that, the mediocre(far cry) and vestigal (doom3) multiplayer that both games shipped with and (now including hl2) you start to see the beginnings of a pattern or atleast a cost/profit strategy.

Obviously , consumers will expect MP as standard in these major releases, and thats where cs:s comes in.
CS:S allows valve to ship its title with MP (a very popular one) for a very limited cost , they get to re-use an ip that that they have already paid for and they guarentee themselves an audience with potential beyond that of fans of the single player experience.
Personally , I see it as a result of the cost not only of developing new technology , but also of developing modern gold-standard games themselves.

More later , too late here, tired.

 

[AgentSmith]

I don't disagree; however, Valve could have been upfront and not been so coy about HL2 and MP. Additionally, MP won't make a big selling point this year but down the road it MP will generate alot of sales (and this goes back to one of my theories). With TF2 and, possibly, CS2 on the calendar for Valve I think they figure they can get more by selling those as Source MP instead of including Source MP with HL2. Either way you slice it I think Valve handled it pretty cheesily, at least IMHO.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

sorry, I know this is off topic but, Thanks Agentsmith for that video (the demo) I had not seen that one yet.

looks pretty spiffy.

 

[AgentSmith]

Yeah, it is pretty cool. Check out the other three at the second link - they are pretty interesting as well.

 

[SAJ]

Valve could have been upfront and not been so coy about HL2 and MP

Agreed , but dont forget that theres alot going on behind the scenes.
Its very likely that valve are contractually obligated to ship a functioning multiplayer with hl2 and looking at the whole valve-vivendi relationship theres no reason why valve would want to allocate more resources than the minimum needed to satisfy their contract.

 

[AgentSmith]

Actually, the way things worked out I don't think that could be the case. One of the reasons that Valve did CS as HL2 MP was that they are not under contractual obligations with VU regarding its release, so they could sell CS:S early through Steam to get people to pre order via Steam. If CS:S where part of that contract then it would have been prohibited from being distributed before HL2 hit the stores just like hte SP.

 

[ZeroG]

Either way the customer is getting shortchanged and it is entirely unlikely that MODs will do better. Certainly there is alot of talent out there on MOD teams, but nothing that matches what a true game developer can bring to bear.

May i just remind u that the CS team were originaly just a MOD team....look what they created.

 

[AgentSmith]

May i just remind u that the CS team were originaly just a MOD team....look what they created.

True - but games today are not what they where 5 years ago, they are far more complex. That being said talented team can do some interesting things - for instance Desert Combat. But even with DC you have, for the most part, a MOD of the original and not the creation of a new MP game as Valve has left to the community in HL2. Time will tell, I don't mean to sound pessimistic I am just trying to be realistic, I think it is overly hopeful to expect MOD teams to 'create' a Source MP. Sure there will be MODs, no doubt about that - but I do not think any will achieve anythin approaching what one might hope for from what we where told about this engine and what the binks show the SP to be. There is just not enough of a MP to build on and the netcode and physics problems are an indication of a problem with the engine in a MP environment.

We'll see, time will tell.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

There is just not enough of a MP to build on

You don't know what they have to build on.

 

[PeeWee]

Gabe didnt make CSS so um ur done.

 

[AgentSmith]

You don't know what they have to build on.

Oh, so now there is a secret full SOurce MP that they have hidden? Give me a break, CSS is the MP and that is all there is to work from. I have no doubt MODers can add vehicles and all that (the code is in for SP) - the issue becomes the netcode and as it is Source can't hardly handle 16 players on small linear maps even with the physics toned down to these ghey bouncy force fields - MODers are not going to be able to do thing one about that.

 

[Mac]

Oh, so now there is a secret full SOurce MP that they have hidden? Give me a break, CSS is the MP and that is all there is to work from. I have no doubt MODers can add vehicles and all that (the code is in for SP) - the issue becomes the netcode and as it is Source can't hardly handle 16 players on small linear maps even with the physics toned down to these ghey bouncy force fields - MODers are not going to be able to do thing one about that.

I've seen 64 player css servers, and played on them.. there were some slowdowns, but for the most part is was more than playable.

 

[Mac]

fact is, implenting real-time physics is a bandwidth hog, and their is nothing valve can do about it except simulate it via 'force field'.

this argument is a moot point. Hardware, as it is now, (at least bandwidth wise) cannot handle real-time physics without certain optimizations, which valve have taken use of.

until everyone has fiber optic cable, your wishes will not be granted.

 

[AgentSmith]

That simply is not true. Joint Operations accomodates 150 people on maps as big as 64 square miles with tons of vehicles (and it allows 56k). BattleField accomodates 64 players an very large maps with vehicles. Source might add physics but the physics it adds are goofy at best and the enigine can barely handle it on small low play count maps compared to other games. BF2 will have physics and ragdolls and huge maps and up tp 100 people.

The fact of the matter is that Source is a year old engine at this point and while it seems apparent that Valve kicked some but with the SP to make it absolutely up to date that as far as MP goes they did little work and made little advancement. Now, if they had dropped 56k support and optimized the netcode for broadband it might be a differant story (BF2 follow previous BF games in requiring broadband). At this point though, I think it is fair to say Source has to really implement what they claimed they would in MP, poor physics and porr netcode don't cut it.

 

[The Mullinator]

heh, I think alot of what this comes down to is Agent Smith expecting utter perfection from a game that took five years to produce and millions of dollars from the ~$50.00 he will spend.

Get over yourself, it isn't perfect and no one is trying to say it is. Valve has made mistakes but we don't care, you are the only one here who seems to care.

Seriously buddy, you have completely ignored alot of the simple arguments that have been given here, I don't know if you are posting here in a feverish attempt to convince people that you are right or if this is just an excuse to raise your post count because the fact is your arguments probably havn't convinced anyone that you are correct. You have instead caused the majority of people to ignore this thread. Almost every point you have given has been argued to the point where it doesn't mean anything anymore yet you still insist on "winning" it would seem.

You can't win this argument because this is all a matter of opinion and so far very few people here share your opinion. Give it up, this thread should have died long ago but you insist on constantly bringing it back from the grave. We are tired an no one is listening to you. We have debated and you simply can't accept the fact that you can't win this argument.

No doubt you will simply continue this argument anyway since you seem so hung up on convincing us that Valve is in the wrong. Hope you have fun continuing your little crusade.

 

[Mac]

battlefield 1942 and joint operations are not games to compare with hl2/source in terms of physics. not even close....

gonna have to agree with mullinator here.

 

[AgentSmith]

Valve has made mistakes but we don't care

I think that about sums up your argument. Fine, don't care - but I for one do care that I got a buggy, incomplete MP that nowhere near delivers what Source was hyped to be. I have said many times if that doesn't bother you then fine, admit it doesn't and move on. Most people ecpext not only something new for thier money but something complete and something that lives up to the sellers claims - CSS simply doesn't do that.

 

[brink's]

I think that about sums up your argument. Fine, don't care - but I for one do care that I got a buggy, incomplete MP that nowhere near delivers what Source was hyped to be. I have said many times if that doesn't bother you then fine, admit it doesn't and move on. Most people ecpext not only something new for thier money but something complete and something that lives up to the sellers claims - CSS simply doesn't do that.

CSS WILL be updated over steam, infact almost everyday they fix a bug or two. I'm willing to bet that by Xmas CSS will be bug free with a few new maps remasterd in source.

Honestly, you seem to be the only one having problems with hit detection. My friend came down from Saskatewan this weekend and after playing CSS I asked him what he liked most about CSS, he replied with the hit detection." Everythings spot on" he said

And you are in the minority, just read
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/counterstrikesource/readers.html

 

[AgentSmith]

OK, you are right - CSS is really original and bugfree MP. ROFL, you guys are nothing but a bunch of fanboys - you cannot even face the obvious. Pretty sad that you have to deny the truth to inflate some video game but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

 

[brink's]

Where did I say CSS was original and bug free? Point it out plz

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Oh, so now there is a secret full SOurce MP that they have hidden? Give me a break, CSS is the MP and that is all there is to work from. I have no doubt MODers can add vehicles and all that (the code is in for SP)

Climb down off that horse....

Nowhere did I say that there was a secret Source MP. I'm referring to the SDK, which is not based on CS:S. You really are turning into a drama queen. If you took the time to read and understand people's posts, then you wouldn't have to go flying off at such a tangent.

the issue becomes the netcode and as it is Source can't hardly handle 16 players on small linear maps even with the physics toned down to these ghey bouncy force fields - MODers are not going to be able to do thing one about that.

Interesting. Plenty of people have refuted your claims about the netcode, and you either ignore them or call them fanboys. You're not holding the One True Opinion here. You have issues with CS:S's netcode - the majority don't. That's not the majority being too blind to see.
"ghey bouncy forcefields" are a mapping consideration, not an engine one. So MODders are able to do plenty about it. Then again, I expect you to ignore this bit, as you seem to do with other posts that show you to be wrong.

Joint Operations accomodates 150 people on maps as big as 64 square miles with tons of vehicles (and it allows 56k).

Joint Operations looked like arse, had horrendous netcode and abysmal hit detection (yes, I played it)

BF2 will have physics and ragdolls and huge maps and up tp 100 people.

So how well does it play with 100 people at once? Oh, you don't know do you? Because it's not out yet. How about grounding those ideals in reality?

ROFL, you guys are nothing but a bunch of fanboys - you cannot even face the obvious. Pretty sad that you have to deny the truth to inflate some video game but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

There's a large difference between "the truth" and your opinion. I suggest you learn it.

 

[Mac]

OK, you are right - CSS is really original and bugfree MP. ROFL, you guys are nothing but a bunch of fanboys - you cannot even face the obvious. Pretty sad that you have to deny the truth to inflate some video game but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

way to stay cool about it.

instead you come off as an arrogant asshole.

 

[ukfluke]

well i' be surprised if any online multiplayer has physics with the interaction of HL2 single player.I think youll find bf2 physics will be toned down for the online mp.

that cliffe character from valve already posted that theyre looking into "other solutions" to the bouncy physics. Dont see how theyre gonna do it but gl to them.

Agentsmith, there are alot of blatent fanboys here just look at this poll
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42169&highlight=superb . i mean somepeople actually think css is superb lol
I dont like it either but for diffirent reasons than u . I agree it is unfinished & incomplete i think they released it early to appease the hl2 fans.

why no hl2 themed mp? well i think its clear they just didnt have the time. Theyre already over a year late with the sp :/

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Obviously there's HL2 fans here. What's the focus of the site?

You can't deride some people as thinking CS is superb unless you're equally prepared to be derided for thinking it's not. Opinions aren't wrong.

 

[ukfluke]

oh come on pi. Only 2 models a few maps and all the bugs . Is this what u expected?

 

[BigWalnutZ]

I don't know if you are posting here in a feverish attempt to convince people that you are right or if this is just an excuse to raise your post count because the fact is your arguments probably havn't convinced anyone that you are correct.

If he was trying to raise his post count I think he would break up the books he continues to write into separate posts, and not 4 paragraph ones.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

oh come on pi. Only 2 models a few maps and all the bugs . Is this what u expected?

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game.

Some people look past the problems and just enjoy playing.

Other people fixate on the problems.

 

[BigWalnutZ]

Ninjas are pretty cool, aren't they? Now, a ninja... a ninja could kill a headcrab.

You are not a ninja.

LOL cracks me up everytime I read it...wonder what ever happened with that website...?

 

[AgentSmith]

oh come on pi. Only 2 models a few maps and all the bugs . Is this what u expected?

Exactly - that FACT is that CSS is sloppy and unfinished - anyone who argues that is either a moron or just has thier head so far up Valve's arse that they cannot see the truth.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game.

Some people look past the problems and just enjoy playing.

Other people fixate on the problems.

Please, I said a dozen times that there is a differance between liking the game and acknowledging that it has problems and is unfinished. To you the problems might not matter but to a non CS fan or non Fanboy of HL2 this is just another game, and on that level it is SORELY lacking.

 

[AgentSmith]

We're working on porting some more of the classic maps right now, currently de_prodigy is in the works. We'll be releasing this as quickly as they are completed.

We're also working on one original map, which will begin internal playtesting this week. This still means we have a fair amount of work to do on it. We're also working on two updated player models. Most of this is scheduled to be released in the December timeframe.

- Erik Johnson
http://www.csnation.net/comments.php?id=7591&type=news&page=1&perpage=40#149261

I mean look at this comment - one old map and one new map and a couple player models due by the end of the year? Come on people - this is a game that was sold in October as 'CS:S Final' and you are going to defend a company that takes until december to come out with a new map and an additional player model per team?

Why is it so hard to face reality? CS may be your favorite game and you may think it is the best gameplay ever - but it is clear and undefensable that CS:S is not only sloppily done but incomplete and NO company should get a free pass for selling an incomplete product like this.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Exactly - that FACT is that CSS is sloppy and unfinished - anyone who argues that is either a moron or just has thier head so far up Valve's arse that they cannot see the truth.

If you're incapable of remaining civil, you won't be staying here much longer.

Please, I said a dozen times that there is a differance between liking the game and acknowledging that it has problems and is unfinished. To you the problems might not matter but to a non CS fan or non Fanboy of HL2 this is just another game, and on that level it is SORELY lacking.

That's quite funny, because I don't recall seeing anyone saying that it didn't have problems and is lacking the content. However, not everyone feels that this is an enormous issue as you do. That in no way reflects negatively on those people just because they don't share your opinion

You also need to stop using phrasing like "fact" and "clear and undefensable" and "why is so hard to face reality" when you're expressing your opinions. It's just bolstering the ever-increasing opinion that you are a troll.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Let me put it another way - out of all the people on these forums that play CS:S, how many of them do you see bitching about all the "problems" that you see? Are they all "morons"? Are they incapable of "facing reality"? Do they all "have their heads up Valve's arse"?

It must be terrible being almost the only person that can see the truth! It's a coverup!

 

[AgentSmith]

Let me put it another way - out of all the people on these forums that play CS:S, how many of them do you see bitching about all the "problems" that you see? Are they all "morons"? Are they incapable of "facing reality"? Do they all "have their heads up Valve's arse"?

It must be terrible being almost the only person that can see the truth! It's a coverup!

Main Entry: un·fin·ished
Pronunciation: -'fi-nisht
Function: adjective
: not finished: a : not brought to an end or to the desired final state b : being in a rough state : UNPOLISHED c : subjected to no other processes (as bleaching or dyeing) after coming from the loom

http://www.m-w.com/

Main Entry: slop·py
Pronunciation: 'slä-pE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): slop·pi·er; -est
1 a : wet so as to spatter easily : SLUSHY <a sloppy racetrack> b : wet or smeared with or as if with something slopped over
2 : SLOVENLY, CARELESS <a sloppy dresser> <did sloppy work>
3 : disagreeably effusive <sloppy sentimentalism>
- slop·pi·ly /'slä-p&-lE/ adverb
- slop·pi·ness noun

http://www.m-w.com/

I guess the differance is that I think it is not a matter of opinion that CS:S is unfinished and sloppy. It is a matter of opinion as to whether someone cares that it is sloppy and unfinished but it is not debatable as to whether it is. Even Valve's own statements tell us it is incomplete and unfinished and any reasoned analysis would agree with the fact that it is sloppily done.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Proving what, exactly?

That's quite funny, because I don't recall seeing anyone saying that it didn't have problems and is lacking the content. However, not everyone feels that this is an enormous issue as you do. That in no way reflects negatively on those people just because they don't share your opinion

any reasoned analysis would agree with the fact that it is sloppily done.

There you go with that "fact" word again. I also like the way you've insinunated that anyone not agreeing with it is incapable of reasoned analysis. Well done.

The majority disagree with you (this has got to be the third or fourth time I've said that). Your opinion is perfectly valid, however so is the opinion of everyone else that disagrees with you. Any reasoned analysis would agree with that.

I'd also like to congratulate you on utterly ignoring several salient points that myself and others have made throughout this thread.

 

[Eat Fresh]

It's not sloppy in it's current state. Unfinished, yes, but that has been the nature of CS from the beginning. Seriously though, would you rather not have any preview of the source engine? They can't magically add 6 models and 80 maps and 50 guns... stuff takes time. I would much rather be able to play now and have to wait to make it a little prettier or whatever.

Even if they didn't release it until it was "finished" it still wouldn't make you happy because you want helicopters and cranes and go karts and minibikes because BF has vehicles! The time after time proven gameplay is not enough for you, oh no, you need groundbreaking stuff like kills in 4 bullets instead of 6 and climbing because jumping must not be an accepted means for getting where you want to be in a game anymore! Slower movement too - because people can't run in real life!

As you can see, you're the only one. I guarantee that even if you did stop whining to people who happen to like the gameplay and made the mod yourself, nobody would download it. Even if it had minibikes.

You are the minority. Put up or shut up.

 

[Kiva128]

It's not sloppy in it's current state. Unfinished, yes, but that has been the nature of CS from the beginning. Seriously though, would you rather not have any preview of the source engine? They can't magically add 6 models and 80 maps and 50 guns... stuff takes time. I would much rather be able to play now and have to wait to make it a little prettier or whatever.

Even if they didn't release it until it was "finished" it still wouldn't make you happy because you want helicopters and cranes and go karts and minibikes because BF has vehicles! The time after time proven gameplay is not enough for you, oh no, you need groundbreaking stuff like kills in 4 bullets instead of 6 and climbing because jumping must not be an accepted means for getting where you want to be in a game anymore! Slower movement too - because people can't run in real life!

As you can see, you're the only one. I guarantee that even if you did stop whining to people who happen to like the gameplay and made the mod yourself, nobody would download it. Even if it had minibikes.

You are the minority. Put up or shut up.

I agree.
:thumbs:

 

[AgentSmith]

The only salient point you or anyone has made is that you would love CS, CS:S, HL2, and Valve without regard to what they do or what the ship. Words mean things, sloppy, unfinished, unpolished - all have very definite meanings and when those meanings fit as a description of a product it equates to fact. As I said, state that you don't care but arguing the facts is denying reality.

On that note I will leave you guys to your little HL2 world, it is apparent that the only reason here is that which holds Valve and HL2 in a blindly praising regard.

 

[Eat Fresh]

No, my point is that the gameplay is tried and true - it is already the cumulation of 5 years of development and tweaks. A change in gameplay wouldn't be CS. It would be an entirely different game.

Maybe I am a Valve / CS fanboy. I've been playing CS since beta1 five years ago. I bought HL for 30 dollars six years ago. Valve let me come into their office and play through an unfinished version of HL2 because I wanted to. I play CS:S on a regular basis.

People are fans of Valve because they have proven to be a good company. They see something that is good (CS) and pick it up - start funding the development. They don't sue the small comapny into oblivion and then rip off their ideas - which would certainly be within their power. They don't force the mod teams they hire to change their agenda. What they are doing when hired is already working.

So what if there is only one model per team. So what if there are 8 or whatever maps. It's still a blast. I don't know if it changed since release or what, but the hit detection is spot on right now. The gameplay is *still* good. It doesn't need to change, in it's current iteration it is almost as good as it's going to get. Different gameplay is great - just as long as they don't try to sell it as CS.

In the end, Counter-Strike:Source is called COUNTER-STRIKE:Souce for a reason. It's still CS. People LOVE that. 120,000 people playing Half-Life multiplayer right now must also disagree with you. Different gameplay would not be CS. It would be something else.

Period.

 

[Jimmeh]

No, my point is that the gameplay is tried and true - it is already the cumulation of 5 years of development and tweaks. A change in gameplay wouldn't be CS. It would be an entirely different game.

Maybe I am a Valve / CS fanboy. I've been playing CS since beta1 five years ago. I bought HL for 30 dollars six years ago. Valve let me come into their office and play through an unfinished version of HL2 because I wanted to. I play CS:S on a regular basis.

People are fans of Valve because they have proven to be a good company. They see something that is good (CS) and pick it up - start funding the development. They don't sue the small comapny into oblivion and then rip off their ideas - which would certainly be within their power. They don't force the mod teams they hire to change their agenda. What they are doing when hired is already working.

So what if there is only one model per team. So what if there are 8 or whatever maps. It's still a blast. I don't know if it changed since release or what, but the hit detection is spot on right now. The gameplay is *still* good. It doesn't need to change, in it's current iteration it is almost as good as it's going to get. Different gameplay is great - just as long as they don't try to sell it as CS.

In the end, Counter-Strike:Source is called COUNTER-STRIKE:Souce for a reason. It's still CS. People LOVE that. 120,000 people playing Half-Life multiplayer right now must also disagree with you. Different gameplay would not be CS. It would be something else.

Period.

I couldn't agree with you more.

*applause all round*

Ok, can we close this thread now? lol