If I were Gabe...

[Eat Fresh]

Please, Valve punted on MP because they knew that all the sickophants would kiss thier buts even though this would make the third time they are selling the same game.

HL2 stands to earn millions upon millions of dollars, they could have easily hired 5 or 8 people to work on CS:S to make it a true HL2/Source MP instead of the same old thing they have allready shipped twice before.

Or they could focus on the single player and get the game done.

 

[AgentSmith]

Or they could focus on the single player and get the game done.

For a major title, and an expensive one at that not having an original multiplayer is just a ripoff. Man, with all the asskissing of the community it is no wonder Valvew keeps selling the same thing over and over - they do it becuase there are plenty of morons who will buy it over and over and be happy, lol.

 

[josho]

mr. agent smith,

HL2 isnt out yet. (im sure you've noticed) Why dont you wait until the game is OUT, and you know FOR SURE that CS:S is the ONLY mulitplayer for it?

 

[The Mullinator]

Please, Valve punted on MP because they knew that all the sickophants would kiss thier buts even though this would make the third time they are selling the same game.

HL2 stands to earn millions upon millions of dollars, they could have easily hired 5 or 8 people to work on CS:S to make it a true HL2/Source MP instead of the same old thing they have allready shipped twice before.

And have to add time for testing? You obviously have no idea how these things get done. Doom III has multiplayer and its obvious that most people hate it so obviously it isn't so easy now is it?

For a major title, and an expensive one at that not having an original multiplayer is just a ripoff. Man, with all the asskissing of the community it is no wonder Valvew keeps selling the same thing over and over - they do it becuase there are plenty of morons who will buy it over and over and be happy, lol.

The fact that you have to resort to insults just shows that you really don't have much to argue with. Everyone is dissapointed with them for not having multiplayer but guess what. WE DON'T CARE BECAUSE WE WILL BE GETTING MULTIPLAYER ANYWAY THANKS TO MOD TEAMS.

If you think that no mod team can equal what an official Valve multiplayer could have done then all I can say is that you really don't have any idea how much talent is in the community and that you have just insulted every team that could potentially create your precious HL2 themed multiplayer.

You insult us for "ass kissing"? Don't make me laugh, your single minded goal of saying how bad Valve was is much more fanatical than any "fans" that have posted in this thread.

 

[Quelaar]

For a major title, and an expensive one at that not having an original multiplayer is just a ripoff. Man, with all the asskissing of the community it is no wonder Valvew keeps selling the same thing over and over - they do it becuase there are plenty of morons who will buy it over and over and be happy, lol.

Do you read game reviews often? Having bare minimum DM is a negative in today's world of gaming, not to mention recreating CS, both undeniably increasing HL2's popularity and mostly preserving the "timeless" tense gameplay, is more than what's expected by developers these days.

More people would kick, scream and throw tantrums if HL2 had DM for multiplayer.

Plus, how is giving HL: DM not qualify as Valve "selling the same thing over and over"? Maybe they should have bundled CS:S and HLDM:S so all the "morons" who buy Valve products "over and over" would finally find some level of satisfaction in the what is possibly the best game of all time.

Quelaar

 

[AgentSmith]

Blah, blah, blah - say it any way you want but Valve knows you will take whatever crap they dish out. If you are fine with that then OK I suppose, I will not take a port of a 5 year old game as MP and accept it just like I wouldn't accept HL:Source as HL2 SP.

How you can even argue that CS:S is not a mess and not a let down as HL2 MP is beyond me but that is your right. As for MODs, mark my words - no MODs of any worht will be uot for HL2 anytime before late 2005 and even then I bet thier is nothing to memorable as lack of a MP from Valve is going to be a huge hinderance to any MODs really developing. Time will tell, you go ahead and wait a year for MP to the game you just bought - I won't stand for that kind of BS just because Valve is the one doing it.

 

[ButtHoleMcGee]

Sadly, this guy has brought up this same arguement in Hlfallout, steampowered, and now here.

 

[Eat Fresh]

For a major title, and an expensive one at that not having an original multiplayer is just a ripoff. Man, with all the asskissing of the community it is no wonder Valvew keeps selling the same thing over and over - they do it becuase there are plenty of morons who will buy it over and over and be happy, lol.

Yes, I am a Valve fanboy. You know why? As an aspiring programmer going to school they LET ME COME TO THEIR OFFICES AND PLAY THROUGH HL2 EARLY. Do you know how big of a project it is? It hasn't taken over 40 people almost 6 years for nothing.

Seriously, what YOU are doing is called whining. Either:
A. do something about it yourself (IE Mod)
B. Stop whining.
C. Stop being so sure your outlook on CS is the right one.

I'm attempting to get into the industry so I *can* do something about what I don't like. Write up a design documet and submit it to companies or something. Do anything instead of whining to people who are just going to argue with you because your view are the minority. Take some initiative.

 

[The Mullinator]

Blah, blah, blah - say it any way you want but Valve knows you will take whatever crap they dish out. If you are fine with that then OK I suppose, I will not take a port of a 5 year old game as MP and accept it just like I wouldn't accept HL:Source as HL2 SP.

How you can even argue that CS:S is not a mess and not a let down as HL2 MP is beyond me but that is your right. As for MODs, mark my words - no MODs of any worht will be uot for HL2 anytime before late 2005 and even then I bet thier is nothing to memorable as lack of a MP from Valve is going to be a huge hinderance to any MODs really developing. Time will tell, you go ahead and wait a year for MP to the game you just bought - I won't stand for that kind of BS just because Valve is the one doing it.

Does that mean you aren't buying it? Because if you aren't going to buy the game because of a lack of multiplayer right off the bat then I think you chose the wrong game to even get interested in. HL1 had good multiplayer but that was never what its focus was.

Also why do you think it would be a year? The SDK probably will be out not long after the release and since all the necessary resources will undoubtably already come with it from single player HL2 (textures, guns, models, etc) then all that would really need to be done is create a few maps, and even that won't take very long because you can simply port over old HL1 DM maps and modify them for HL2. I am expecting an early playable DM mod within at an absolute maximum 2 weeks after the release of the SDK.

EDIT: Also the amount of crap they dished out because of the multiplayer fiasco is really only a small amount that will most likely be easily cleaned up and forgotten about as long as the game is as good as the magazine reviews have led us to believe.

 

[Quelaar]

Sadly, this guy has brought up this same arguement in Hlfallout, steampowered, and now here.

Searching everywhere but still catering to a limited audience :|

Quelaar

 

[AgentSmith]

Whatever guys - take CS over and over and over (a game Valve didn't even create) and tell yourselves that it is oh so great and Valve is oh so wonderful for giving it to you but the fact is that Valve jipped everyone. Valve touted MP as much as they did the SP for wuite some time and then, magically, CS:S (which they described as a simple port just to test compatiblity) becomes HL2s MP (and in the same sloppy condition it was in during BETA). Those two facts simply do not jive.

CS:S cannot simultaneaously be a port done just to test compatibility and a MP designed to bring HL2/Source online. Pick one and defend it if you wish but either way Valve delivered less than promised (also on SDK which os now months late). I am not sayin to hate them or to go burn down thier offices but maybe if you guys would stop accepting things like Condition Zero and CS:Source as new products and expose them for what they are, cheap rehashes of something we allready have, then Valve might get of thier buts and put the same energy and creativity we have seen in the SP vids into MP.

 

[Quelaar]

Smith, you've argued in favor of adding DM. THAT would be doing the same thing "over and over".

Plus, here are some facts that even you can't refuse:
CS:S equals
-much higher appeal/popularity for HL2
-recreation of the most popular and, arguably, the most timeless mp fps (come back to this one after having played MOHAA, COD, BF:1942, AA, Far Cry etc). CS:S is a simple, tense and fast paced game that I can always come back to after playing other MP games.
-Valve didn't "jip" us: offering DOD:S and HL:S (though half-life source is nothing special) for an additional $10 to retail is amazing.
-You can't handle the fact that most people don't agree with you (eg your fallout and steam threads).

Quelaar

 

[Mac]

AgentSmith must think Valve works for him or something

In fact what valve is all about is having the best multiplayer component of any game on the market

how? by catering to the mod community.

hl2's multiplayer component is the sole reason some people are even purchasing.

so i don't see how you can argue that hl2's multiplayer is substandard.

I'll agree with you that in the beginning, with just cs:s to work with, hl2's multiplayer component is pretty weak.

but you need to have patience, as mods will be flowing very quickly.

you made a point that it may be more than a year before a mod (or even better, a total conversion) would come out.

On the contrary, there have been many teams that have gotten together a year ago (expecting it to come out sept 03 ) and have a ton of content already made. all the is left is the release of the sdk.

look at ut2004. there have been tons of total conversions for it already with more planned.

i dont see the future as grim as you do.

YOU MUST BE DEPRESSED!

 

[AgentSmith]

Smith, you've argued in favor of adding DM. THAT would be doing the same thing "over and over".

I never once said HL2 should have DM - read the original post as it outlines many things none of which are HL2 DM. In short, I suggested that if CS:S is the main MP that it should be done in as polished and detailed way as the SP is, not just some rush quickie port. It should fully utilize Source and include enough new content and updates to qualify as a new game. I suggest that if anything should be a quickie it should be some HL2 DM type thing with maybe some conquest type games just to let people play the HL2 stuff online. If you read my posts I am not lobbying for HL2 DM but for a true Source engine MP, not a just a rehash (allmost piece by piece) of a game designed for a 5 year old engine).

You can't handle the fact that most people don't agree with you (eg your fallout and steam threads).

Quelaar

I don't expect people around here to agree with me, this is a fansite for HL/CS/Valve. Are you so myopic to think that since people on this board or the Steam boards disagree with me that that means the whole of gamers do? Please, just look at the differance between HL2 sales and say, Halo 2, and you will see that the gaming world doesn't revolve around HL2 and/or Valve. CS is very popular, I give (and gave) credit to it for that - but it is also very hated. Probably as many people can't stand CS as can - don't think that just because few people around here will stand up and say the Emporer (Valve) has no clothes doesn't mean it isn't true.

AgentSmith must think Valve works for him or something

In fact what valve is all about is having the best multiplayer component of any game on the market

how? by catering to the mod community.

hl2's multiplayer component is the sole reason some people are even purchasing.

so i don't see how you can argue that hl2's multiplayer is substandard.

I'll agree with you that in the beginning, with just cs:s to work with, hl2's multiplayer component is pretty weak.

but you need to have patience, as mods will be flowing very quickly.

you made a point that it may be more than a year before a mod (or even better, a total conversion) would come out.

On the contrary, there have been many teams that have gotten together a year ago (expecting it to come out sept 03 ) and have a ton of content already made. all the is left is the release of the sdk.

look at ut2004. there have been tons of total conversions for it already with more planned.

i dont see the future as grim as you do.

YOU MUST BE DEPRESSED!

Untill the SDK comes out it is not even possible to do the MODs, so far the SDK is months behind what was originally promised so how am I being overly pessimistic to expect that (as with everything else HL2) what hapens in the end will be far less than Valve told us all along. Additionally, the SDK is unlikely to include the netcode (allmost none do) so how is some new MP MOD supposed to make better use of Source given that the netcode is only written (and poorly at that judging from CSS) to run an old game like CS? As for the time, it will be at least 6 or 8 months to a year before any MOD is out and longer before they are complete enough to even be considered close to a commercial MP, if ever.

UbiSoft and Crytek said the same exact things about catering to MODs and releasing the tools and all that stuff and to date nothing has developed because the tools where late and the MP that shipped with the game was so poor that no MP MOD could really do anythign with it (same type of netcode problems as Source has). Come on, can you not at least admit that given the months of delays with the SDK allready and the other delays and broken promises from Valve that it isn't at least possible, if not probable, that Valve is just ttelling us what we want to hear to get people to buy the game now? Is that so hard to accept as possible given the way CSS was touted as Final when it is BETA, HL2 has top secret MP and then it turns out that was BS, SDK will be out in June and then they said month before release and now they say who lnows what? Come on.

 

[AgentSmith]

Case in point:

As it stands, CS:S isn't different enough, in this editor's opinion, to justify a review. At its heart, it is the same engine with a new chassis. Same maps, same weapons, same mechanics from top to bottom, and it doesn't look as though the gameplay is going to see any significant changes.

From IGN review (not a game publication that relies on developers giving them info to survive).

 

[Quelaar]

Case in point:



From IGN review (not a game publication that relies on developers giving them info to survive).

Heil reviewer! Your opinion shalt have dominion over all!

Look, I like CS:S. Most of the whiners around here who nitpick and b*tch about HL2 and anything associated with, a group that constitutes a huge number of posters on hl2 themed forums, like it too.

You don't like it, the IGN reviewer doesn't like it's lack of additions, and many others are disappointed by valve's current MP release. Take your opinion, put it in a little happy box, and cease from cramming down the throats of people in this forum. For countless pages people have been arguing against you, and it's quite astonishing, in a good way, that you've maintained yourself against that surge. I doubt anyone cares anymore, with the exception of myself, so why make countless attempts to convert other forum members?

Everyone knows your opinion. Period. Can't you just leave it at that?

Quelaar

 

[Quelaar]

Sorry to double post, but I simply hate swearing.

Apologies,

Quelaar

 

[blinking halo]

i agree with smith

ok i didnt read the 5+ pages between this and the original post, but in any case, i FULLY agree with the first post. i think CS has become too arcade like. yes, i know there are other realism mods available, but the point is that CS used to tout realism as one of its main features. 8-9 bullets for a kill is HIGHLY unrealistic. IMHO a couple of other things should be added:

* Bleeding/Bandaging ala firearms
* Blinding from the sun, and from flashlights, as well as eye adaptation (eg, if you walk into a dark room, your eyes would need to adjust and vice versa for going outside into the bright sunlight)
* Bullets which actually AFFECT a player, eg, when you are hit, your character should be knocked back, where a bigger round would have more force, as well as depending on the distance.
* When you die, the camera should stick to the players face ala medal of honour.
* SMALLER BLOOD SPLATS! a meter wide splatter of blood on the wall is not realistic....
* Blood smears. I think this would be hard to implement, but would look awesome
* Objects you can jump on. The way it is now, means that the physics barely add anything to the game.
* Scope sway. already mentioned by agent smith, i think this is extremely important. It is NOT possible to hold a heavy sniper rifle like the AWM (or AWP if your prefer the mistake) without it swaying a bit. TRY IT. get an air rifle and try to hold still while standing WITHOUT resting it on something.

Please dont flame me if you disagree, dont call me a noob who doesnt know shit, ive played CS since 1.3.

And dont say i should want CS2, these are all implementable changes, several of which i think should definately have been in CSS.

 

[sublidieminal]

ok i didnt read the 5+ pages between this and the original post, but in any case, i FULLY agree with the first post. i think CS has become too arcade like. yes, i know there are other realism mods available, but the point is that CS used to tout realism as one of its main features. 8-9 bullets for a kill is HIGHLY unrealistic. IMHO a couple of other things should be added:

* Bleeding/Bandaging ala firearms
* Blinding from the sun, and from flashlights, as well as eye adaptation (eg, if you walk into a dark room, your eyes would need to adjust and vice versa for going outside into the bright sunlight)
* Bullets which actually AFFECT a player, eg, when you are hit, your character should be knocked back, where a bigger round would have more force, as well as depending on the distance.
* When you die, the camera should stick to the players face ala medal of honour.
* SMALLER BLOOD SPLATS! a meter wide splatter of blood on the wall is not realistic....
* Blood smears. I think this would be hard to implement, but would look awesome
* Objects you can jump on. The way it is now, means that the physics barely add anything to the game.
* Scope sway. already mentioned by agent smith, i think this is extremely important. It is NOT possible to hold a heavy sniper rifle like the AWM (or AWP if your prefer the mistake) without it swaying a bit. TRY IT. get an air rifle and try to hold still while standing WITHOUT resting it on something.

Please dont flame me if you disagree, dont call me a noob who doesnt know shit, ive played CS since 1.3.

And dont say i should want CS2, these are all implementable changes, several of which i think should definately have been in CSS.

The beggining of your post shows you as someone who thinks Cs is arcadey but is good. Okay I'm interested.. you have a couple minor additions, but with respect to Cs's gameplay... but you slap it like a bitch with realism that is in no game to date (as far as I know) e.g. temp. blindness from "Looking at the sun".
Chill out with the realism, your dealing with an "arcadey" game here.

(Is that a flame?? Whatever that means, I don't know.)

 

[blinking halo]

ok im sorry i should have made it clearer:
i like CS
BUT
i would like it a LOT more if it had the changes i mentioned.

Dont get me wrong: im not a CS hater, i just have realistic tastes, and few other 'realism' mods are popular enough in the area where i live that i can play them (i live in asia, where basically people only play CS or DoD)

PS: im not asian

 

[AgentSmith]

I think the issue here, or much of the difficulty in the discussion is that people tend to take a critique (strong or otherwise) of CS:S as a slam on thier favorite, CS. Well, I don't like CS - I admitted as much. I played it in the last couple stages of beta through to 1.3 so I have put my time in but as I did it over and over it just grew old. No biggie, I went on to other games.

What I have found over the years is that while CS WAS the relistic arcade shooter engine advancements have allowed for much greater realism in games (i.e., not being able to run and snipe) without ruining the fast and furious fun. I looked forward to CZ as I thought that a new title would bring some more of what has evolved around the genre into the game I started out on and once loved (even if I had grown tired of the one dimensional point and shoot gameplay). What I got was the same game minus the shield (I was gone b4 that came in) and some miniscule change with nades dropping when you die. I couldn't believe it.

Now, all this hype and the great binks showing what this Source engine can do and I couldn't wait to play that 'barricade' type scenario online with people. It seemed a natural assumption that since the SP game had obviously prgressed in realistic feel and environments that the MP would incorporate that. Instead, we get the same game I got a short time before, CZ - and the same one I had over 4 years ago. Literally not one engine feature or other technical advancement adding to gameplay in any way other than asthetics.

That is disappointing. I am not trying to say CS sucks, I am not trying to say HL2 sucks - but I do think it is a pretty fair to expect a new engine (one hyped so strongly by Valve - they hyped SP and MP both) to bring out new MP gameplay and experiences just as you would expect it to bring out new SP gameplay and experiences. I mean to me, it just seems that a true fan of the game would WANT new versions nad not just better looking versions of the same thing. I don't understand the point of having Counter-Strike 1.6, COndition Zero, and CS: Source all playing the same 5 year old gameplay style. If you disagree with me then fine, but at least my way you would have more and most reasoned people think more is better that many of the same.

BTW - on my suggestions, I think people see less bullets to kill (3 or 4) and think I am suggesting ultra realism. I am not, take BF for instance - it only takes a few of any bullets to kill but the guns accuracy is far more affected by the players stance and actions so in the end you have the same bullets fired to bullets hit ratio )or similar). Adding this type of 'realism' just adds more dimension to the gameplay so it isn't just the same 'ole buy gun and rush to choke point - you have to play to the conditions and the weapon you have.

Remember - what made CS so amazing in its time was how differant it was from anything else. It completely revolutionized MP FPS with rounds and a realistic style no games really had done before. CS:S should have at least followed in that tradition, IMHO, instead of just giving us the now third version of that same game (which is NO LONGER revolutionary or original in any way).

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You're missing the point.

What's the most popular multiplayer FPS/mod by a huge margin? Counter-Strike.

So while it may no longer be revolutionary, or new, it's still the most played online game in the world.

I suspect that was a major factor in Valve adopting CS:S for HL2 MP, and also the reason why they didn't drastically change it.

HL2 is going to be a fantastic SP game, and the SDK is going to allow for some kick-arse mods. CS:S is just a bonus.

Oh, just another point - you've repeatedly said that the SDK has been "delayed". Admittedly, Valve said that they were going to get the SDK out before the game, but not by a factor of several months. 90% of the SDK is useless without the game. Sure, you can make and compile maps, but you can't test them. You can write code, but you can't run it. You can make, animate and export models, but you can't test them.

 

[AgentSmith]

Valve had said the SDK was to be out in June a while back, then when they missed that they said a month b4 the game, not it is with the game or weeks after. Point is that all DEVs have done that song and dance before and we all know how Valve is for meating deadlines and fulfilling promises. I think Valve will get the SDK out, for the record, probably by the end of the year. What concerns me about the whole MOD thing is that we can all see from CS:S that the game has netcode issues and all it is doing now is running a 5 year old games features (basically). The SDK will not have the netcode so how is it that this next generation made by MODers MP Source game is going to develop without anything to support in online? This is a major problem. As for people saying Valve will update CS:S I don't think they really will, that much at least. They have to support CS 1.6, CZ, and now a third version all at the same time and all while doing SDK and thier other games like TF2 and CS2? I dunno, if they couldn't do it before to get money why are they going to do it now that they got the money? Personally, I think Valve wants CS to fade away as it is a major hinderance to new sales. Think about it - this huge base of fans and they are so entrenched in CS that they won't take any changes - how are they gonna sell CS2 or TF2 with that large block still satisified in CS or even CS and CS:S? Sounds like a conspiracy theory but think about it, it has merit.

As for CS:S, fine - I don't have a problem with CS:S being HL2 MP so long as it was made as updated as the engine. Fact is that they didn't make a Source version of CS they made the old CS work on Source - there is a big differance and that is what I am getting at here. The fact that they did the same thing with CZ only emphasises how much I think they owed us a new updated version of CS made to fully utilize Source instead of doign the CZ thing again and giving us CS 1.6 with better graphics.

 

[Eat Fresh]

Valve had said the SDK was to be out in June a while back, then when they missed that they said a month b4 the game, not it is with the game or weeks after.

The fact that they did the same thing with CZ only emphasises how much I think they owed us a new updated version of CS made to fully utilize Source instead of doign the CZ thing again and giving us CS 1.6 with better graphics.

I'm sorry, but Valve *owes* you nothing.

How bout more conspiracy theories!

Maybe Valve wanted their main multiplayer to be more easily overshadowed by user made mods - therefore bringing forth another, bigger pool of people to bring into the team. Maybe they felt that they didn't want to decide what players should like and let them make it for themselves, as in the past they have been very ready to do this.

Or *MAYBE* they started the multiplayer portion of the game way too late and just wanted to make the easiset thing that would still get some attention as a game. Seriously, you can see it still isn't done and hasn't gotten as much polish as a retail release.

They are in a crunch mode - and have been for over a year. This is not something the families and friends of employees like, so they decided not to make a team work 18 hours a day (instead of 10 or 12 + weekends) to crank out a mediocre multiplayer component when they could just port an old one and still get a different "mediocre" (I don't think it is, but I can see why the whiners whine) multiplayer mode.

 

[AgentSmith]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. I believe companies owe me an original product when I pay for one. And with upwards of 100 million dollars in sales at stake they can work 18 hour days or hire a second shift - give me a break man, this is a company and not some kid working between classes.

The fact of the matter (undeniable if you are honest) is that if HL2's SP is as unoriginal, buggy, incomplete, and just overall as sloppy as its MP (CS:S) then you would be saying what I am.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Valve had said the SDK was to be out in June a while back, then when they missed that they said a month b4 the game, not it is with the game or weeks after. Point is that all DEVs have done that song and dance before and we all know how Valve is for meating deadlines and fulfilling promises. I think Valve will get the SDK out, for the record, probably by the end of the year.

That's speculation, though, and not grounded in fact. The SDK for HL came out quite promptly after the game.

What concerns me about the whole MOD thing is that we can all see from CS:S that the game has netcode issues and all it is doing now is running a 5 year old games features (basically).

That's subjective. I've not experienced any noticeable "netcode issues".
Obviously, CS:S is going to have the same features as CS. It's a conversion, and was never intended to be otherwise.

The SDK will not have the netcode so how is it that this next generation made by MODers MP Source game is going to develop without anything to support in online? This is a major problem.

See above.

As for people saying Valve will update CS:S I don't think they really will, that much at least. They have to support CS 1.6, CZ, and now a third version all at the same time and all while doing SDK and thier other games like TF2 and CS2? I dunno, if they couldn't do it before to get money why are they going to do it now that they got the money? Personally, I think Valve wants CS to fade away as it is a major hinderance to new sales. Think about it - this huge base of fans and they are so entrenched in CS that they won't take any changes - how are they gonna sell CS2 or TF2 with that large block still satisified in CS or even CS and CS:S? Sounds like a conspiracy theory but think about it, it has merit.

If it had merit, then why are Valve catering so much for the CS crowd? Not really the actions of a company that wants CS to go away.

As for CS:S, fine - I don't have a problem with CS:S being HL2 MP so long as it was made as updated as the engine.

It was.

Fact is that they didn't make a Source version of CS they made the old CS work on Source

CS:S isn't a direct port like HL:S. It's got completely redone maps, models and sounds. The gameplay is the same intentionally.

-[/quote] there is a big differance and that is what I am getting at here. The fact that they did the same thing with CZ only emphasises how much I think they owed us a new updated version of CS made to fully utilize Source instead of doign the CZ thing again and giving us CS 1.6 with better graphics.[/QUOTE]

Which isn't what they did.

 

[Eat Fresh]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. I believe companies owe me an original product when I pay for one. And with upwards of 100 million dollars in sales at stake they can work 18 hour days or hire a second shift - give me a break man, this is a company and not some kid working between classes.

The fact of the matter (undeniable if you are honest) is that if HL2's SP is as unoriginal, buggy, incomplete, and just overall as sloppy as its MP (CS:S) then you would be saying what I am.

This leads me to believe you've never worked an 8 hour day, much less 12. Much less 14. While there is some profit sharing among the higer ups, Most of the non guru programmers get a flat rate, and while it is substantial, you try working 6 or 7 days a week with 3x the work as sleep.

When you buy HL2, you should get HL2. Its up to *you* to figure out if thats worth it for you or not. If it's not, move on or do what you can to change it - which will be provided with mod tools. IF you try this, you will understand what a HUGE undertaking a modern game is. Whining in a fan board won't get you anywhere. CS:S is free with HL2, which you will get soon and eat any words you might say about buggyness or whatnot.

You didn't buy BF:V for the single player.... did you? If you did, I'm sure you complained about it on the EA boards...

Also, it may sound like I'm flaming you (even though you haven't accused of it yet, you may be thinking it, I probably would) but I'm not... just trying to give ou a picture of the real world.

There is a limit on how much can be done on a game. You CAN'T pass code on from one person to the next and expect them to know exactly whats going on - everyone codes differently. This is a big factor in why shifts aren't possible - a single person takes a chunk of the game/program and works on that specific part until it is done. Generally, they are all broken up so everything that can be done at the moment is getting done.

 

[mrxskinny]

There's always CS2.

 

[Mac]

Untill the SDK comes out it is not even possible to do the MODs,

This does not have any merit. Mod teams have been updating with all kinds of content such as player models, gun models, etc. It is fair to say that this makes up alot of the mod itself, and much of this will be out of the way by the time the SDK comes out. so it IS possible to do some modding even without the SDK

so far the SDK is months behind what was originally promised

First of all, the game hasn't even been released yet. Can you think of any other dev that has released an SDK before the game? I sure can't. Besides that, getting hl2 out the door is a bit more important than the SDK, I would think.

so how am I being overly pessimistic to expect that (as with everything else HL2) what hapens in the end will be far less than Valve told us all along.

Valve is all about releasing quality products. Look at half life one
I can not think of an example of where valve has given us something that was far less than advertised.

Additionally, the SDK is unlikely to include the netcode (allmost none do) so how is some new MP MOD supposed to make better use of Source given that the netcode is only written (and poorly at that judging from CSS) to run an old game like CS?

I have no clue how you can make the claim that the netcode is only written to run an old game like CS. CSS eats up a ton more bandwidth then cs ever will. You have the physics, the shaders, etc. your comparing apples to oranges here. And as far as the netcode being shitty, thats arguable, as I think it runs pretty well considering the fact that it has some of the most advanced physics of any game out. I'd like to see another dev do a better job..

As for the time, it will be at least 6 or 8 months to a year before any MOD is out and longer before they are complete enough to even be considered close to a commercial MP, if ever.

again, you must be a genie or something to make such predictions. plus, unless you are part of a mod team, you have no grounds to make this statement. regardless of the timetable, there will be a lot of total conversions, i think we can agree here.
Some will be good, some will be bad.

UbiSoft and Crytek said the same exact things about catering to MODs and releasing the tools and all that stuff and to date nothing has developed because the tools where late and the MP that shipped with the game was so poor that no MP MOD could really do anythign with it (same type of netcode problems as Source has).

Valve still has a shot at releasing the SDK at the same time as th release of hl2. If not, then shortly after. Crytek on the other hand, didn't release there SDK till months after the release of their game, so you cant put valve in the same category as Crytek about 'lying' about catering to mods.

Come on, can you not at least admit that given the months of delays with the SDK allready and the other delays and broken promises from Valve that it isn't at least possible, if not probable, that Valve is just ttelling us what we want to hear to get people to buy the game now?

Only promises valve has broken are release dates. other than that valve has an excellent track record. (Look at half-life1 for christ sake) making quality stuff takes time and sometimes they have bad judgement on when they can finish it.

Is that so hard to accept as possible given the way CSS was touted as Final when it is BETA, HL2 has top secret MP and then it turns out that was BS

The fact that you think its still 'beta' is arguable. it was 'beta' when it was being 'beta' tested. Sure, some bugs cropped up, but this happens with all games, and they've already fixed some of them (just yesterday they released a patch that fixes the %n crash). You just can't catch every bug sometimes. its a fact of gaming.

SDK will be out in June and then they said month before release and now they say who lnows what? Come on.

It's seems most of your arguing is just blatant valve bashing. You are bitter because of the release date fiasco, rightly so, but this doesn't translate to crappy products. In fact it translate to just the opposite: quality products. Valve is all about releasing quality sutff, if they weren't then HL2 would be in our hands way too early, full of bugs, and you'd be complaining even more than you are now. So in essence, its a good thing that they break release date promises because in the end we will be getting a better product. If you dont think this is true, then you don't know much about valve.

 

[ShinRa]

if u were gabe that would be cool.but if i was u,i'd kill myself

 

[AgentSmith]

All this text making excuses for Valve. The facts are indisputable, the SDK is months late, Valve has a history of missing deadlines and breakinf such promises, Valve never said HL2 was a SP game only or what I am saying would be a moot point - they quite agressively played HL2 as a SP and MP game, and last and most importantly even if you forget about all the above the FACT is that CS:S was sold to the community in a barely BETA state - it is neither complete nor professional and has no business as a major game titles MP component as it is not a retail quality product.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

As I pointed out earlier, the SDK release is tied into the release of the game. Releasing the SDK prior to the game by any great margin (anything over a week or two), and it becomes useless.

HL2 is an SP and MP game - CS:S is HL2 MP

CS:S was never sold to the community. It came free with orders of HL2. Yes, it's still somewhat unfinished. I expect the remainder of the issues to be addressed by the time HL2 hits retail. Consider CS:S as an early gift for preordering.

 

[AgentSmith]

Please, CS:S is as much a part of HL2 being its MP as Doom 2 MP is a part of retail Doom 3 (or any other game). Why is it so hard for you people to admit that Valve jipped us a bit and even deceived us about this MP and CS:S? It is like a sports team that has a star that gets in trouble and the fans refuse to admit the guy might be a scumbag because they are so blindly loyal to the team. If you are a true fan of HL/CS then you have to admit that CS:S is IN NO WAY up the the standards a fan SHOULD have for this much hyped Source engine. At the least it is incomplete and by some more stringent (but fair) standards it is just a cheap rehash.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I don't have to "admit" anything. I don't see things the way that you do - that doesn't make me wrong.

CS:S is shipping as the multiplayer component of HL2. Therefore, it is HL2's MP.

 

[AgentSmith]

CS:S is shipping as the multiplayer component of HL2. Therefore, it is HL2's MP.

Then we agree and my analysis is accurate and just dismissing the unfinished state of CS:S as OK because it is some free port is bogus. CS:S is a new entity, it is the MP of a retail product and when judged that way you cannot deny that two things are true - it is incomplete and it is not the Source MP Valve hyped up (toned down physics and other issues). The later there might be otherwise stated as saying it is an unoriginal game; one designed for a differan and older engine so not fully utilizing the Source engine. This being the case it is very fair to criticise Valve and CS:S.

 

[The Mullinator]

Then we agree and my analysis is accurate and just dismissing the unfinished state of CS:S as OK because it is some free port is bogus. CS:S is a new entity, it is the MP of a retail product and when judged that way you cannot deny that two things are true - it is incomplete and it is not the Source MP Valve hyped up (toned down physics and other issues). The later there might be otherwise stated as saying it is an unoriginal game; one designed for a differan and older engine so not fully utilizing the Source engine. This being the case it is very fair to criticise Valve and CS:S.

So what your saying is that it comes down to you hating Valve because you didn't get your precious HL2 themed multiplayer and most other people just saying "meh, i'll get it in the end anyway. I'm just happy its finally released and the single player sounds utterly fantastic."

No one is saying they aren't dissapointed with Valve for not including another multiplayer, we just aren't nearly as pissed off about it as you. When it comes to designing software plans change all the time, it is common to have features being hyped during development only to find they had to be removed before release. For the longest time Microsoft was talking alot about its new file indexing feature with its next OS. Well guess what, they had to remove it because it was going to take too much time to implement. Valve isn't the only company to do this contrary to what you seem to think.

So guess what, Valve isn't some sort of demonic company, these things happen all the time and its not because the company is out to get you, and finally you WILL be getting multiplayer in the end. So please just stop your constant Valve bashing, sit back, and wait for the game.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The later there might be otherwise stated as saying it is an unoriginal game; one designed for a differan and older engine so not fully utilizing the Source engine. This being the case it is very fair to criticise Valve and CS:S.

Again with the "originality" thing. No, CS:S isn't original. I wasn't aware that Valve were obliged to come up with a completely new concept for multiplayer.

Go ahead and criticise it - no-one is denying your right to that. You should accept that you're obviously in a minority, though.

 

[AgentSmith]

Again with the "originality" thing. No, CS:S isn't original. I wasn't aware that Valve were obliged to come up with a completely new concept for multiplayer.

Go ahead and criticise it - no-one is denying your right to that. You should accept that you're obviously in a minority, though.

LOL, CS:S is widely criticised for a number of reasons, fact is that CS is as well. Yes, many people play it - more than any other such game but far more do not play it for many of the reasons listed here.

As for originality, are you telling me, honestly, that if HL2 SP is the same as HL1 SP (not original) but just has better Source graphics and the physics you would be happy? Come on, no way. So why is the MP any differant? At the VERY least Valve should have updated CS enough to fully utilize the new engine and should have completed and polished CS:S prior to release (including models, new maps, etc). NOBODY IS CLAIMING CS:S AS HL2 MP IS THE PROBLEM, it is the unfinished and sloppy condition of it that is the issue along with the fact that it has nothing new other than Source graphics - it should AT LEAST be redesigned/updated enough to reflect the capabilities of the engine so that you have a new MP game instead of just a better looking version of the same game.

So what your saying is that it comes down to you hating Valve because you didn't get your precious HL2 themed multiplayer and most other people just saying "meh, i'll get it in the end anyway. I'm just happy its finally released and the single player sounds utterly fantastic."

No one is saying they aren't dissapointed with Valve for not including another multiplayer, we just aren't nearly as pissed off about it as you. When it comes to designing software plans change all the time, it is common to have features being hyped during development only to find they had to be removed before release. For the longest time Microsoft was talking alot about its new file indexing feature with its next OS. Well guess what, they had to remove it because it was going to take too much time to implement. Valve isn't the only company to do this contrary to what you seem to think.

So guess what, Valve isn't some sort of demonic company, these things happen all the time and its not because the company is out to get you, and finally you WILL be getting multiplayer in the end. So please just stop your constant Valve bashing, sit back, and wait for the game.

Yes, if CS:S got the same updating to gameplay as the SP seems to have gotten (judging from the binks and such) then I would be fine with that even if I didn't like the gameplay. At least it would be a new game and make use of the engine I bought.

As for software changing, PLEASE, up until the game was released Valve was claiming this bogus stuff. "Get CS:S Final now if you buy through Steam", they forgot to mention that CS:S Final is just a paid version of the friggin BETA. All that talk for years about the top secret HL2 MP when it turns out that the 'port' they talked about openly was the top secret (huh? I don't think so). I don't care at all about a HL2 theme MP - I care about getting a new game when I make a new purchase. Be that CS on Source with new features, content, and maps and such or some run around HL2DM - a new title should be new.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

LOL, CS:S is widely criticised for a number of reasons, fact is that CS is as well. Yes, many people play it - more than any other such game but far more do not play it for many of the reasons listed here.

Well, using your logic back at you, even more people don't play any other MP game. Whatever CS's faults may be, it is the most popular online game in existence

As for originality, are you telling me, honestly, that if HL2 SP is the same as HL1 SP (not original) but just has better Source graphics and the physics you would be happy?

but it isn't - that's a strawman argument.

So why is the MP any differant? At the VERY least Valve should have updated CS enough to fully utilize the new engine and should have completed and polished CS:S prior to release (including models, new maps, etc). NOBODY IS CLAIMING CS:S AS HL2 MP IS THE PROBLEM, it is the unfinished and sloppy condition of it that is the issue along with the fact that it has nothing new other than Source graphics - it should AT LEAST be redesigned/updated enough to reflect the capabilities of the engine so that you have a new MP game instead of just a better looking version of the same game.

That's entirely subjective. You think it should have been redesigned, not everyone. I admit a mild annoyance at the relative lack of content (more of which is on the way), but I'm generally happy with CS:S - certainly enough to keep me playing it.

Yes, if CS:S got the same updating to gameplay as the SP seems to have gotten (judging from the binks and such) then I would be fine with that even if I didn't like the gameplay. At least it would be a new game and make use of the engine I bought.

Again - there was no reason to change the gameplay. You're positing that it should have been changed for the sake of changing it.

As for software changing, PLEASE, up until the game was released Valve was claiming this bogus stuff. "Get CS:S Final now if you buy through Steam", they forgot to mention that CS:S Final is just a paid version of the friggin BETA. All that talk for years about the top secret HL2 MP when it turns out that the 'port' they talked about openly was the top secret (huh? I don't think so). I don't care at all about a HL2 theme MP - I care about getting a new game when I make a new purchase. Be that CS on Source with new features, content, and maps and such or some run around HL2DM - a new title should be new.

You are getting a new game - HL2. For whatever reason, Valve decided to use CS:S as the multiplayer component, and it is exactly what they said it would be - a conversion of CS, using the Source engine.

As Valve have stated, there are going to be new maps, new content, new gameplay elements to CS:S in the future.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

Im fine with CS:S (It's not my cup of tea, but I guess I can wait for mods), Im just dissapointed that the Secretive MP that Gabe alluded to playing was pure nonsense.

life goes on though.

I hear both Agent, and Pi are trying to convey and I agree with both.

Agent has the right to express how he feels about the mp component, that we were handed the short end of the stick, and I agree with that to some extent, because I did follow the developement of hl2 very closely and they did make me feel as though the MP component would be something spectacular.



PI is right in saying, being the developer the MP could be whatever they wanted.. the worth of the product is for the individual to decide.. a lot of people creamed themselves when they heard CS:S was hl2's mp component.

The fact that they sold Hl2 packages via steam and saying it was the full version of CS:S irritates me, as it most evidently was not. (or it should not, but then again perhaps some people just expect more/a certain level of quality out of something they pay for)

people either look at it as:
+Well you pre-ordered Hl2 via steam and got to play cs:s for free.
you should be thanking Valve that you can play CS:S in the time it takes for them to release, new content will come in patches.

-I bought Hl2 via steam, expressly for the ability to play CS:S now, thinking I was purchasing the full end version, didnt expect the beta with more maps.. if that were the case I would have waited for retail.

what you have to realize is that Valve are complete masters Of all marketing strategies.

oh crap gotta run, will continue this later.

great conversation btw.