I'm fed up with religion. /rant

[Shift]

This thread displeases me.

 

[Godron]

If a religious person is a scientist, then I doubt that their religion would be of much detriment to their intellect/career. If their discoveries contradicted something in the Bible, I expect they'd just re-interpret the Bible, or accept that it shouldn't be used a a source of truth about the natural world anyway. However, it's possible that religion would make someone less likely to become a scientist in the first place. Although I think that whether or not someone becomes a scientist has more to do with how much natural curiosity and intellect they have, people often see science as the enemy of, or even the opposite of religion. In its stronger forms, religion also discourages people from inquiring about the world.

What would be of detriment to a scientist's career is other peoples' religion. We all know how much resistance genetic engineering, IVF, stem cell research etc get from religious groups.

Another problem with religion is that in its most active forms, it can disable peoples' ability to rationally critisise what they hear, if it comes from the mouth of a preacher. This makes it a very dangerous political tool, one of the most effective ways of mobilising thousands of people against thousands of other people, or simply to control them through fear. I just think religion is more trouble than it's worth. I agree with PvtRyan that religion is less harmful these days, simply because people don't adhere to it as much, which allows them (and therefore the religion itself) to be influenced by more modern ideas.

EDIT: I'm tired, that's why this post sucks.

 

[Dog--]

this Thread Displeases Me.

Oh God No! No! This Can't Happen! Someone Say Something! Shift Is Displeased! Oh My God The Apocolypse!

Aaahhhhhhhh I'm Burning Holy ****!

 

[Nomad]

It's kind of sad for atheists, as they have nothing to look forward to when they die. Then again, they don't believe in hell either.
This thread is going to hell....

 

[Jintor]

Acepilot stfu. I love you like a brother, man, but your automatic reaction of "ZOMG ATHIEST CIRCLEJERK THREAD LET'S NOT CONTRIBUTE SHIT" gets tiresome after a while.

Enzorr, no.

Godron's got an interesting thesis going.

 

[Nomad]

Yeah, I know. It seems to me like everything I say in this thread is NO.

 

[Krynn72]

It's kind of sad for atheists, as they have nothing to look forward to when they die.

Neither do you. OH SNAP.

Then why do they give up? Most scientists don't work to the death to explain things that they can't. Scientists are like normal people, if they find something to difficult they eventually give up. IIRC the thing Laplace worked out that Newton couldn't required a new from of math that Newton didn't know about.

What I am saying is that scientists ALWAYS come back to things they couldnt figure out before. Its why they are scientists, they need to understand things about this world that nobody currently knows anything about. Giving up and saying "god did it" doesnt help shit, and thats the bottom line.

Still quite a trivial reason. Considering all the anger religion invokes on this site.

Way to just ignore what I said. I said it was one reason why people are angry over religion. One of hundreds.

I never claimed they were good scientists because they were religious, I said their religion was irrelevant to their ability to be scientists.

And we're saying its not irrelevant. We're saying that religion promotes acceptance of things based on faith and irrational reasoning, which directly opposes the scientific method.

Newton and Galileo were very religious. It makes no sense that Newton would challenge conventional religious views about God's role in the world some of the time, then not others purely due to his religion.

You're right. That doesnt make sense and nobody said he did that.

 

[PvtRyan]

It's kind of sad for atheists, as they have nothing to look forward to when they die. Then again, they don't believe in hell either.
This thread is going to hell....

This always puzzled me.

Heaven is a better place than Earth, right? If so, your only desire should logically be to die as quickly as possible. Fuck this life, it's merely a steppingstone to eternal glory! Your biggest wish in life should be to get T-boned by a big truck tomorrow morning. The only logical reason why you haven't committed suicide yet is because God does not really approve of it. Unless, of course, you don't really buy that bullshit about paradise either, if you're truly honest. If I truly believed in it and God was OK with it, I'd put a gun in my mouth right this instant.

It's death that gives our life its value. What value is there to this life if all that death here means is access to a new, infinitely better life? Without death, life is without value. What reason is there for someone like you to protect life here on Earth? Absolutely none, that's what. There's no consequence to bad things, in fact, bad things will ultimately lead to good things, so there's all the more reason to let them persist. Suffering means nothing, because what's 80 years of suffering compared to infinite glory?

It's ironic that the atheists are often said to have no purpose or meaning in life, while it should logically be quite the opposite. In practice, it's not because there's few people who truly believe that nonsense.

An atheist has all the more reason to live this life to its fullest because it's all there is. It's a precious gift. But what remains of that when you put it into a religious perspective?

And I'm not sad about there not being a heaven. I don't think that anyone who likes the idea of heaven ever really gave it any thought about what it means. It means eternal life. Not a thousand years, not a million years, not a billion years, not a million times a billion years, no, infinitely longer than even a billion million billion years. By all standards, heaven is hell.

 

[Krynn72]

A billion million billion is my new favorite number.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Yeah, I call bullshit on that claim as well. Scientists enjoy investigating the unknown. It's their passion to make discoveries and learn things. Any scientist who just gives up and claims that a god must have taken care of it isn't much of a scientist at all.

So you don't think newton is a real scientist then?

Pfff, right.

 

[Malfunction]

This always puzzled me.

Heaven is a better place than Earth, right? If so, your only desire should logically be to die as quickly as possible. Fuck this life, it's merely a steppingstone to eternal glory! Your biggest wish in life should be to get T-boned by a big truck tomorrow morning. The only logical reason why you haven't committed suicide yet is because God does not really approve of it. Unless, of course, you don't really buy that bullshit about paradise either, if you're truly honest. If I truly believed in it and God was OK with it, I'd put a gun in my mouth right this instant.

It's death that gives our life its value. What value is there to this life if all that death here means is access to a new, infinitely better life? Without death, life is without value. What reason is there for someone like you to protect life here on Earth? Absolutely none, that's what. There's no consequence to bad things, in fact, bad things will ultimately lead to good things, so there's all the more reason to let them persist. Suffering means nothing, because what's 80 years of suffering compared to infinite glory?

It's ironic that the atheists are often said to have no purpose or meaning in life, while it should logically be quite the opposite. In practice, it's not because there's few people who truly believe that nonsense.

An atheist has all the more reason to live this life to its fullest because it's all there is. It's a precious gift. But what remains of that when you put it into a religious perspective?

And I'm not sad about there not being a heaven. I don't think that anyone who likes the idea of heaven ever really gave it any thought about what it means. It means eternal life. Not a thousand years, not a million years, not a billion years, not a million times a billion years, no, infinitely longer than even a billion million billion years. By all standards, heaven is hell.

/agreed billion million billion times :cheese:

 

[Raziaar]

And I'm not sad about there not being a heaven. I don't think that anyone who likes the idea of heaven ever really gave it any thought about what it means. It means eternal life. Not a thousand years, not a million years, not a billion years, not a million times a billion years, no, infinitely longer than even a billion million billion years. By all standards, heaven is hell.

Okay. I'm going to comment on this thing, because there's something I wanted to say. I was pretty religious, and I thought about the idea of heaven a lot.

The problem with people saying that Heaven is Hell, is that they apply the whole thought of heaven(or at least usually from what I see) in the perspective of their life on earth, how they might experience life. When you think of it as being in the mortal capacity you know now, you think that things will get old quickly and eventually you'll see and do everything there is to do, and eventually there all won't be a point, and it will indeed become hell.

I just saw it as boundless, unlimited potential without strife or hardship. Of course, on earth you think of these things and you think they lack drama and thus are boring which of course they do. But when I was religious I allowed myself to open up to a whole new possible mindset that with the infinitely complex nature of the universe and being with a god that would have created all that, there is nothing to say "this is all there is and ever will be." if you're residing under the care of a god that can just create the most ****ing crazy shit ever with sheer will, and that such a being would be able to easily satisfy any number of spirits for all eternity without there being any lulls or spouts of boredom.


I dunno, I just think that things would be entirely different from how they are on earth, and how I view things as a mortal, and that they would be completely lacking in all the negative things we think about... boring, stupid, etc.


I dunno.


What I do know though is I am ****ing tired and going to bed!

 

[Mr Stabby]

What I am saying is that scientists ALWAYS come back to things they couldnt figure out before. Its why they are scientists, they need to understand things about this world that nobody currently knows anything about. Giving up and saying "god did it" doesnt help shit, and thats the bottom line.

Many scientists have tried to solve problems and have been unable and given up. Almost everyone before the 20th century used God to fill in the gaps that they couldn't explain. God of the gaps isn't helpful, but it's not harmful, if the problem was inexplainable anyway. Considering it was 200 years before the problem was resolved, I doubt Newton would have been able to work it out.

Newton was was driven to discover the light spectrum to prove Descartes and the catholic church wrong, because of his religious conviction that the Catholic church was wrong and his own brand of protestantism was right. Religion helping science. Arabic science in the middle ages was also religiously driven.

Way to just ignore what I said. I said it was one reason why people are angry over religion. One of hundreds.

I originally asked why we should hate all religion, this is the only reason so far proposed.

And we're saying its not irrelevant. We're saying that religion promotes acceptance of things based on faith and irrational reasoning, which directly opposes the scientific method.

I know your saying religion is a hindrance and I disagree with that. The scientific method was invented by a religious person FFS.

You're right. That doesnt make sense and nobody said he did that.

Your saying due to his religion he didn't work it out, which still makes little sense.

 

[Shift]

Oh God No! No! This Can't Happen! Someone Say Something! Shift Is Displeased! Oh My God The Apocolypse!

Aaahhhhhhhh I'm Burning Holy ****!

Damn right. Ill go all Zeus on your asses.

 

[PvtRyan]

Okay. I'm going to comment on this thing, because there's something I wanted to say. I was pretty religious, and I thought about the idea of heaven a lot.

The problem with people saying that Heaven is Hell, is that they apply the whole thought of heaven(or at least usually from what I see) in the perspective of their life on earth, how they might experience life. When you think of it as being in the mortal capacity you know now, you think that things will get old quickly and eventually you'll see and do everything there is to do, and eventually there all won't be a point, and it will indeed become hell.

I just saw it as boundless, unlimited potential without strife or hardship. Of course, on earth you think of these things and you think they lack drama and thus are boring which of course they do. But when I was religious I allowed myself to open up to a whole new possible mindset that with the infinitely complex nature of the universe and being with a god that would have created all that, there is nothing to say "this is all there is and ever will be." if you're residing under the care of a god that can just create the most ****ing crazy shit ever with sheer will, and that such a being would be able to easily satisfy any number of spirits for all eternity without there being any lulls or spouts of boredom.


I dunno, I just think that things would be entirely different from how they are on earth, and how I view things as a mortal, and that they would be completely lacking in all the negative things we think about... boring, stupid, etc.


I dunno.


What I do know though is I am ****ing tired and going to bed!

Well, what you're essentially saying is that when I'm dead and in heaven, I'll perceive things differently and I'll be able to enjoy it for infinity. But that means I'm no longer myself, because I don't enjoy that sort of thing. I'll be a mindless drone just staring at God's omnipotence limited to the emotion of awe. Me finding the idea of heaven for all eternity boring is part of what makes me, me. If I spend eternity in heaven, incapable of any emotion other than blissful happiness, how is that any different from eternal nothingness, the atheist's death?

There's only 5 options really:

1) Eternal nothingness. Like the time before you were born.
2) Eternal heaven with you being you. Would get boring after the first billion years. Will truly be a hell.
3) Eternal heaven with me being some mindless drone. Essentially the same as number 1.
4) Finite time heaven that eventually ends in a number 1 death. But if it's going to end in a number 1 anyway, why bother postulating it at all? It's redundant, skip the middle man I say.
5) Reincarnation into some other life form. However, this universe has a limited lifespan, at some point the universe will experience heat death in which all stars have stopped shining for hundreds of billions of years already and eventually even atoms and the protons and neutrons they consist of will disintegrate until the universe has reached perfect entropy. What are you going to reincarnate into? Of course, there's a possibility that there's an infinite amount of other universes, which would always be available for your respawning needs. But I don't see why the idea of reincarnation is at all comforting. Either way, you are still dead, but you'll reincarnate as something else. But you yourself will be as dead as a number 1 death.

Either way, you're fucked.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I don't know if infinity would become boring. I don't really have the capacity to think that far ahead. Infinity possibility. It's a rather extreme example to say that you'll become some mindless drone, just because your point of view and capacity for experience changes. People change all the time, and yet I've often encountered a lot of who are of the opinion that any change to their personality is tantamount so some sort of sacrilege.

I don't think it exists, but I don't think it's necessarily as hellish an idea as you're suggesting, but I say this because I'm allowing for the possibility that it involves something that is currently just beyond my ability to envisage.

 

[Mr Stabby]

In hell you'd also eventually get used to the eternal burning.

 

[Raziaar]

Well, what you're essentially saying is that when I'm dead and in heaven, I'll perceive things differently and I'll be able to enjoy it for infinity. But that means I'm no longer myself, because I don't enjoy that sort of thing. I'll be a mindless drone just staring at God's omnipotence limited to the emotion of awe. Me finding the idea of heaven for all eternity boring is part of what makes me, me. If I spend eternity in heaven, incapable of any emotion other than blissful happiness, how is that any different from eternal nothingness, the atheist's death?

I don't think it changes my personality. I don't base any part of my personality on my capacity to suffer from something that is very human in nature. Boredom to me, severe boredom either, is not a personality trait, at least not to me.

I also think in that situation it's a little too convenient to say you'd be bored after a few billion years. If such an afterlife with such an omnipotent god existed, I would think there would be no issue of boredom with the literally infinite things to do that absolutely blow the stuff we experience on earth out of the water. I don't think I could become bored with unlimited number of new things to do, and I don't think it would be possible to ever do them all, with a forever expanding horizon of things to do that cater to all the species in existence, not just those on earth.

I just can't really apply mortal quirks that in my opinion do not define personality, to an immortal situation.

And I can't think that our limited range of emotions and ways to express ourselves would still be the limit in an afterlife. That our personalities now would be at our peak with no intent to expand our horizons of character to meet the new expansive plane of existence shared with beings I have never even known before.


I think it's too easy to apply the problems and limitations of ourselves here on earth, and juxtapose them in an afterlife.



But... I'm not religious anymore, so none of this matters. But I still retain the thoughts I once had about what an afterlife might be like in terms of scope, not content. Sometimes I hear people say things like, "Heaven for me will be like, covered in trampolines and you could..." blah blah blah... and I say to myself, "That's it? That's all you can think of? Things experienced while we were mortal humans? The most amazing things to me that would be in a heaven, would be the unthinkable now"

 

[Remus]

1) Eternal nothingness. Like the time before you were born.

So am I the only one that finds that possibility conforting?

 

[Geogaddi]

So am I the only one that finds that possibility conforting?

Not at all. I find it hugely comforting. More so now than heaven was when I was a Christian.

Also, PvtRyan's posts in this thread have been very eloquent and summed up my feelings nicely.

 

[Dinkleberry]

Not at all. I find it hugely comforting. More so now than heaven was when I was a Christian.

Also, PvtRyan's posts in this thread have been very eloquent and summed up my feelings nicely.

I sometimes wonder if Heaven and eternal nothingness were one and the same (metaphors perhaps), in the minds of the original authors of religious scripture.

 

[Geogaddi]

Nah, I doubt it. They were thinking about a place where livestock don't kick when you rape them.

 

[Dinkleberry]

Nah, I doubt it. They were thinking about a place where livestock don't kick when you rape them.

Ha!

xchar

 

[Saturos]

In hell you'd also eventually get used to the eternal burning.

Hahaha!

*while constanly on fire*:AHHHHHH! IT BURNNNS! IT BURNS! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!


*A billion years later and still on fire*:IT BURNS IT BURNS AHHH...hhhh.........ah f**k it.