In Defense of the Spy (bring it on Drookles)

[Darkside55]

Maybe it's because you can't aim

Son...it's not TF2, but catch [Darkside]Emperor on Killbox_Final HL2DM one of these days and I will teach you what it means to aim with a revolver (it's arguably harder to use the HL2 magnum versus the TF2 revolver).

I know a lot of people talk shit in gaming, but do you really think that I would openly boast about my skills on a community that I've been a part of for the past five years, with people who actively play these games, if I couldn't back up what I was telling you? Really?

Team Fortress has been my life, man. Everybody on this forum knows Darkside is obsesses over Half-Life; I'll tell you flat out it's NOTHING compared to me and Team Fortress. From way back playing in the OGL, hanging out on The Catacombs, spying it up on Yoda's 2fort; don't think I'm making shit up here because it's the internet. Arguably I didn't graduate High School because I never went to class for semesters at a time because I was at home playing Team Fortress for eight hours a day.

 

[Crispy]

So, no vids then? I could talk and talk about how I screwed up my A-levels playing CS, but that won't make me a god at CSS now. You're bigging yourself up now as the 'epitome of the class'. Let's see some evidence of you as the epitome of the class in the game this forum is dedicated to. Please be sure to have your name in-game set to Darkside so we can see it's you making the demo.

Spy rocks.
Revolver is as strong as an unscoped sniper rifle i say.
And yes its mostly about luck, but skill too, also earlier today i got found out by falling and making a loud crunch

I checked this out and they're matched at medium range, the reolver is better at short range but the unscoped sniper has no falloff damage so wins at long range. All in all the Revolver is probably better because of rate of fire and ease of use.

 

[Darkside55]

So, no vids then? I could talk and talk about how I screwed up my A-levels playing CS, but that won't make me a god at CSS now. You're bigging yourself up now as the 'epitome of the class'. Let's see some evidence of you as the epitome of the class in the game this forum is dedicated to. Please be sure to have your name in-game set to Darkside so we can see it's you making the demo.

While I'd love to oblige you, I don't know if you've been keeping up on Darkside current events but I lost my job as a video game journalist at Wegame...exactly three months to today, in fact. So, I no longer have a $4300 rig with which to play TF2 and make some awesome videos. The only computers I have are this compaq laptop and a dell that doesn't even have a slot for a video card that belongs to my roommates, and the best I can get out of that thing is HL2DM--certainly not TF2.

And I know you're probably thinking, "excuses," but check it: I'll put in my sig that I owe you videos. Once I get a job to pay for a new computer--which I SHOULD have had the foresight to buy when I HAD a job that paid me well enough to buy a $2000 computer in two week's pay--I'll record you some videos. That way you don't think I'm gonna flake out on you or somehow conveniently forget this conversation ever happened.

The fact that I can't play TF2 is the only reason I'm not playing it right now, in fact, instead of having this conversation. Otherwise I'd just volunteer to show you in person.

Although...I think I AM going to go play TFC. So, it's in my sig: when I get a new computer I'll make some videos. If this thread is long and buried by that time I'll make a new thread about it, or necromance this one. Oh, there'll be videos. But right now I'm off to stab people in Classic. All this talk makes me want for cz2 (it's the best map for spies, y'know).

 

[Crispy]

While I'd love to oblige you, I don't know if you've been keeping up on Darkside current events but I lost my job as a video game journalist at Wegame...exactly three months to today, in fact. So, I no longer have a $4300 rig with which to play TF2 and make some awesome videos. The only computers I have are this compaq laptop and a dell that doesn't even have a slot for a video card that belongs to my roommates, and the best I can get out of that thing is HL2DM--certainly not TF2.

And I know you're probably thinking, "excuses," but check it: I'll put in my sig that I owe you videos. Once I get a job to pay for a new computer--which I SHOULD have had the foresight to buy when I HAD a job that paid me well enough to buy a $2000 computer in two week's pay--I'll record you some videos. That way you don't think I'm gonna flake out on you or somehow conveniently forget this conversation ever happened.

The fact that I can't play TF2 is the only reason I'm not playing it right now, in fact, instead of having this conversation. Otherwise I'd just volunteer to show you in person.

Although...I think I AM going to go play TFC. So, it's in my sig: when I get a new computer I'll make some videos. If this thread is long and buried by that time I'll make a new thread about it, or necromance this one. Oh, there'll be videos. But right now I'm off to stab people in Classic. All this talk makes me want for cz2 (it's the best map for spies, y'know).

I look forward to this day.

 

[(SGA) Doctorwho]

Darkside has taught us all an important lesson here:

 

[Sheepo]

He makes a fairly good point, but I have to disagree that there is never a time when it is better to use it even if you are playing spy perfectly.

 

[Planetary]

The revolvers a psychological weapon as much as anything else. Murphy's law applies to spies more then any other class, maybe pyro in 2nd place. It's an "oh shi-" weapon, that you use when spotted, and the other guys is rushing you ubersaw out.

Like the guy in the videos I posted does, it's more of a paranoia weapon, fire it at long range, cloak and the enemy wastes 1-2 minutes trying to find you.

Or blowing up a engie's stuff the moment he starts building (Badwater's got some great places for this)

It's a long range sapper.

I find the revolver a lot more elegant then random flailing when discovered, hoping for a lucky facestab/guy at 20 health.

And the crits on it hurt I can tell you. 120 damage in one shot? Nice!

And why would Valve give it to you if you're not supposed to use it?

I agree that the knife is still the primary weapon, the main killing weapon, but I only actually kill with the revolver as often as a scout kills with the pistol, a Pyro the flaregun, or a Medic his needles. The only confusion is that the revolver is slot 1 and the knife slot 3, but that's to be more in line with the other class's weapon orders.

Anyone even watch those videos? The guy knows EVERYTHING about spying.

 

[Darkside55]

Like the guy in the videos I posted does, it's more of a paranoia weapon, fire it at long range, cloak and the enemy wastes 1-2 minutes trying to find you.

You've already alerted them to your presence, though. You fire your revolver, and anyone who's played TF2 for any amount of time knows what the revolver sounds like, knows it's a spy weapon. A responsible enemy is going to radio that there's a spy around before he spends 1-2 minutes looking for you. That puts their entire team on alert that there's a spy around, which increases the number of checks.

While you're obviously going to alert the enemy the instant you stab someone or sap a building, you've got a window of time that allows you to move fairly comfortably around the enemy base.

Or blowing up a engie's stuff the moment he starts building (Badwater's got some great places for this)

It's a long range sapper.

I'm not doubting that it works. It CAN be effective. It's just that it's more of an unspecialized tool. You already have a sapper for buildings and you have a knife for enemies. The revolver is like, "Well, this is here too. It does what the other two things do but not as well, for the tradeoff of long range." Why do you need a long range weapon for a class designed to be CLOSE RANGE?

I find the revolver a lot more elegant then random flailing when discovered, hoping for a lucky facestab/guy at 20 health.

Facestabbing is inelegant as well. There shouldn't be a reason that you're ever caught in that situation. Bumping head-on into enemies, or coming under suspicion...hell you should barely even be seen, by anybody, on either team. Spy is really a game of watching and waiting. A big reason people end up facestabbing, trying desperately to kill an enemy face-to-face (which has a very, very low success rate) is because a lot of players don't play with the mindset that you need to pick and choose who you go after. You need to watch, wait, and strike when it's opportune--not when you see an enemy and think you can go for the kill.

And the crits on it hurt I can tell you. 120 damage in one shot? Nice!

And why would Valve give it to you if you're not supposed to use it?

You can use it. And as I said, it can be effective. It's just not specific to anything. The spy has weapons that are specific to particular tasks, and tools (disguise kit, cloak) that allow him to get in close to utilize those weapons. You know, if you so chose you really could play the spy without using the cloak or the disguise kit, without the sapper or the knife, and just run around shooting things. And you'd get kills. You could be rather deadly.

But I still see it as inelegant and not as effective. And it can cause more problems than it solves, IMO. When TF2 came out I tested the thing extensively and I found that it simply isn't necessary. It's loud and has tracers that can lead enemies to your position. Even using it to set up traps specifically to draw enemies to you, that's not my playstyle, personally. I prefer to slip in, slit throats, destroy buildings with the sapper, and slip out. I simply have no need for the revolver and I find it to be counter to the spy mindset--or, at least, MY spy mindset.

I'm not going to tell anyone here how they should have their fun playing the spy, but I AM saying that the revolver is a weapon that can be done without. You can effectively play the spy, whether you use the class for what it's actually meant for (spying, people; why do most spies never feel like reporting what's going on in the enemy base?), or whether you want to stab and sap your way to the top of the scoreboard. The revolver really is just "there."

 

[Jintor]

While I don't share Darkseid's elite spy mindset, I have to say that I rarely ever use the revolver when I'm playing spy. There's just such a wonderful feeling to getting 5 backstabs in the space of less than a minute...

 

[Azner]

Facestabbing is inelegant as well. There shouldn't be a reason that you're ever caught in that situation. Bumping head-on into enemies, or coming under suspicion...hell you should barely even be seen, by anybody, on either team. Spy is really a game of watching and waiting. A big reason people end up facestabbing, trying desperately to kill an enemy face-to-face (which has a very, very low success rate) is because a lot of players don't play with the mindset that you need to pick and choose who you go after. You need to watch, wait, and strike when it's opportune--not when you see an enemy and think you can go for the kill.

As a spy, youre always bound at least once in a round to run into an enemy. Atleast on the servers here with spychecks on anyone and everyone by pyros.

 

[morgs]

I can't seem to play spy very well, always get spy checked or bump into an enemy in a tight space.

 

[B_MAN]

Do people hate the spy because it's hard to play or because a skilled player can really cause havoc (and death by spy is particurlarly aggravating)? Likely both, but I wouldn't say he's underpowered myself.

agreed

 

[MattyDienhoff]

Personally, I never play the spy because I just never could get the hang of it. I do admire how potent the class can be when played properly, however, and I'm always happy to have a good spy on my team.

Facestabbing is inelegant as well. There shouldn't be a reason that you're ever caught in that situation.

I stopped reading there.

No one's perfect, accidents do happen, and even the best players can be caught off guard and make bad judgement calls now and then. I'm an extremely experienced tactical shooter player, which means that I know one should never ever be spotted by a random patrol while alone behind enemy lines, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen now and again. Sometimes it's out of the player's hands.

 

[Darkside55]

As a spy, youre always bound at least once in a round to run into an enemy. Atleast on the servers here with spychecks on anyone and everyone by pyros.

I can't seem to play spy very well, always get spy checked or bump into an enemy in a tight space.

Try to move with the flow of the enemy. If someone's coming toward you, especially in a confined space where you can't maneuver, you'll want to be moving in the direction they're going until you have the opportunity to move aside and let them pass, then double back the way you came. In a big crowd, try to be ahead of everyone--the spy has a speed that outpaces most classes and if you're in front you don't run the risk of having people bump into you from behind if you need to stop for the enemy in front of you. If there's only one or two people, go behind. At this point you could probably just slip away anyway, or stab them both if you need to.

Of course, the obvious answer to not bumping into people is to watch the traffic, keep an eye on the scoreboard to see who's died in the past minute, and move accordingly. If you're moving into a base make sure nobody's soon to come OUT of the base, or at least be reasonably certain you're not going to end up mashed together with a group of reinforcements stepping out of their respawn.

Also pay attention to where traffic ends up on the maps you're on. Where does the flow of people get congested? What areas are heavily trafficked? What areas have very few people moving through them? And be aware that you don't always want to take the road less traveled because...get this...if nobody's using that route 90% of the time, someone coming through there is a BIG RED FLAG to the enemy. Just be aware of these things; not bumping into people is largely situational. You're not liable to bump into anybody on, say, Snowbridge, but if you're a spy you probably want to stay out of the enemy's tunnels in Toyfort.

As for pyros, avoid them. "Obviously," you say, but I've seen people in pubs trying to seriously fool pyros. They'll do that stupid little jumping up-and-down routine, "Hey look I'm not a spy," spray their logo and call for a medic. That isn't going to work on anybody that's played the game for more than two days. I've seen people try to run past them, go around them while they're still walking straight ahead into the enemy base. That don't fly either. Just leave if you see a pyro. Turn right back around and get out of there. Cloak when you're out of sight, double back. Don't bother stabbing the pyro unless you're sure you can get a clean hit. Oftentimes you'll want to avoid this anyway because a tipped off pyro will now be coming for you with a vengeance.

Anyone else doing spy checks, you just have to really learn to be innocuous. Some people, no matter what, are going to open fire on you if you're in proximity. That's just a given. People on defense are wary of everybody. You just have to be...you can't give off that intruder "vibe." Some people on defense will fire on everyone they see; some can be tricked. If at all possible, cloak and try to follow a roving defender. See who fires on him and plan accordingly. If you manage to get shot, cloak and flee. That's the most advisable thing to do. Unless you're in an open space and you're feeling ballsy, don't try and get a kill on the enemy immediately.

Other enemies will be alerted to you now as well if that spychecker is being responsible. Lay low to avoid further spy checks.

 

[-Psy-]

Two clicks with the shotgun and you're probably dead. That is why people spy-check so often. It's incredibly easy and if the person you're shooting really is a Spy then you get a free kill.

 

[Sheepo]

That's why you should only allow them to see you when they are very dstracted.

 

[danil1]

underpowered? what cause of pyros?
those who say it's underpowered most likely suck.

 

[-Psy-]

That's why you should only allow them to see you when they are very dstracted.

Easier said then done.

 

[Sheepo]

The maps are filled with great hiding spots. Keep an eye out and stay hidden, it's not that hard.

 

[Planetary]

Well, hopefully the revolver unlock will be something more people find useful.
I'm still hoping for some kinda motion sensor replacement for the sapper take a second or two to turn on, but then you can actually know that enemies are around the bend. Downside is you have to find another way to deal with buildings.

 

[Azner]

I got back my spy skills around this time

Must be the holiday season.

OH YEAH

 

[Gordon-Shepherd]

It is harder to play the spy these days, no doubt
still though, it's not horribly underpowered and still very playable, especially in the right situations.

 

[Azner]

Harder than when TF2 first came out.
Scoring combos with spy now.

 

[Hobopro]

The spy is meant for people with fast reflexes and good tactics, in short, not me.
Max backstabs: 1.
I always get confused in battle situations plus the enemies almost always discover that Im a spy. So I just find someone whos not paying attention, like an engi who's building stuff and stab the living daylight out of em'.
There's always these pro's in every server who are just unstoppable, I wonder how I could learn their mysterious ways.

 

[MJ12]

I love being a smartass as the spy. Especially in ctf_Well.

Occasionally I'll get some Pyro guarding the intelligence with his life, and I'll walk out in plain sight on the balcony like "Hey Pyro, up here!!!"

And of course, he knows if he tries to get up there, I'll just cloak and steal the intelligence. (which is my intent)

So instead I will cloak, and appear right behind him, but in front of the glass window that's between me, and him and his intelligence, I'll fire a round off so he turns around, he trys to manuever around the window but I cloak away, and as he is going all fire crazy in some random area I grab the intelligence.

Eventually he caught me right before I got out of the base, and so he guarded the dropped intelligence like crazy, so I just waited by the intelligence room again because he was too busy guarding it somewhere else until it returned to their base, grabbed it, and successfully captured it

He really hated me.
But yeah, ****ing with people's head's like that is what makes the spy a lot of fun IMO.

That's why I really love the spy and the engie (two favorites) is because you can get really creative with your tactics.

 

[Sheepo]

I find it amusing that Druckles never even saw this thread.

 

[MJ12]

Does he hate spysies?

 

[Sheepo]

See thread title. My constant arguments with him over whether the spy isn't underpowered were what caused me to create this thread. Spy is his favoritte class, but he sucks at it so he whines constantly.

 

[Great Grizzly]

Spies are the most powerful class in the game. In fact I think they are too powerful. The reason people scream "omg the spy sucks!" is because the learning curve is extremely steep. I know people who can get 20 kills on one life being a spy. I have never seen a heavy (who is supposed to be the primary killer) get that many kills.

 

[V-Man339]

I find that the spy's skill is obviously a great decider in all of this, and so is luck, but I find an ironic situation after reading a thread like this for the engineer.

The spy and the engineer are both classes with jobs that get harder as the enemy gets smarter.
At the start of the beta, you'd set a sentry, go back to get ammo, come back and repair, and continue to level 3. Now the players are so experienced that by the time you come back, the sentry is destroyed, the enemy was using cover so as to not take damage, and the enemy engineers took the scrap metal.
The spy is the same; earlier, you could get shot by a rocket, not move, and they wouldn't think your a spy, right after being blocked by you. Now, they'll be sure to spend an entire clip shooting you before they even try to move through you.

From what I could tell, the spy and engineer could really relate to eachother if they would stop killing eachother. The spy is mostly offensively exploiting the enemy weakness, while the engineer is deffensively exploiting the enemy weakness.
This leads to a lot of them trying to kill eachother.

The spy/engi's luck and skill is, so far, not the factor that directly kills them. The enemy has become smarter, and so you're more likely to end up very much dead if you don't react accordingly. The sad part is, this requires a lot of luck.

Playing against a dumb novice team, and then an intelligent team will really show a good showcase of my argument.

 

[MJ12]

From what I could tell, the spy and engineer could really relate to eachother if they would stop killing eachother. The spy is mostly offensively exploiting the enemy weakness, while the engineer is deffensively exploiting the enemy weakness.
This leads to a lot of them trying to kill eachother.

Absolutely, this is why Engie and Spy are my two favorite/most played classes.

I love the challenge of having to be smarter/more clever as your enemy becomes smarter, and this also gives me the ability to know my own worst enemy depending whether I am the spy or the engie

The acception though is of course, like many spies, we are too scared to figure out how to exploit our nemesis, the ****ing Pyro. Assholes.

I think one of the best things I learned was how to be an offensive engineer if you can in the map. It combines some spy skills, along with engineer. I absolutely love building a class 1 sentry in an unseeable corner in an enemy base, running away and just hearing the poor suckers get blasted and I gather more metal for my next spot.

 

[the cow says moo]

I actually like to be a pyro (fear me, spies!) for the same reason many of you like being a spy. I like tricking people. Most often this occurs when I trick people into following me around a corner where I then proceed in toasting them. I also love flanking an enemy attack much as a spy would, only slower and more chaotic.

 

[MJ12]

I swear Pyro's have a sixth sense with catching Spies, they're ****ing dicks.

 

[Eejit]

Engis are pretty weak against a decent team though, unless there's a bunch of them stacking overlapping sentries. Even then a good team will tear them apart.

 

[kazsymonds]

I swear Pyro's have a sixth sense with catching Spies, they're ****ing dicks.

Im the same as an engi, ANYONE that comes near my shit is getting whacked with the wrench. A good pyro watches his back and tests all his team mates to make sure they aren't spies.

A spy that will catch me out will be one badass ninja bastard and will have to sneak behind me, uncloak into disguise, sap my sentry and then backstab me before i can kill him with the wrench.

It's more difficult when playing as, say, sniper.

I've only come across a few spies that played the class so well that i had to change class to keep up.

 

[Sheepo]

Spies are the most powerful class in the game. In fact I think they are too powerful. The reason people scream "omg the spy sucks!" is because the learning curve is extremely steep. I know people who can get 20 kills on one life being a spy. I have never seen a heavy (who is supposed to be the primary killer) get that many kills.

Ahahaha!

Primary killer...

 

[-Psy-]

I haven't played Spy a lot in the past couple of months simply because they still haven't fixed the backstabs.

 

[MJ12]

The only thing I wish besides the spy's speed being increased as an obvious one is that more of my TF2 playing friends would play the spy.

Because the most fun thing to do is a spy tag team, especially in Intelligence maps, I love doing something really obvious, like uncloaking in plain sight of an enemy guarding the intelligence, they turn to me and start shooting, my other spy buddy saps shit, grabs intelligence.

Sometimes I will go into an enemy base and disguise as one of my own team members, run one direction so everyone goes apeshit and chases me, cloak at a corner, go in the opposite direction.

 

[the cow says moo]

Tricking people is f***ing fun.

 

[V-Man339]

The only thing I wish besides the spy's speed being increased as an obvious one is that more of my TF2 playing friends would play the spy.

Because the most fun thing to do is a spy tag team, especially in Intelligence maps, I love doing something really obvious, like uncloaking in plain sight of an enemy guarding the intelligence, they turn to me and start shooting, my other spy buddy saps shit, grabs intelligence.

Sometimes I will go into an enemy base and disguise as one of my own team members, run one direction so everyone goes apeshit and chases me, cloak at a corner, go in the opposite direction.

Tricking people is f***ing fun.

Concurance.
There's just one problem; you guys are stating right here what you don't want them to know! You have to be smarter than the enemy to win as spy, and win you let them know what you're doing you've pretty much lost the game right there.