Iran caught red-handed shipping weapons to the Taliban

[Sulkdodds]

AFAIK No Limit is not trying to push you into sympathising with people who kill but rather into understanding why they might be motivated to do so - that is, why torturing people's families is counter-productive.

 

[repiV]

Really? Care to point our some examples? What Arab countries have tried to bring us down to their level? What arab countries have ever launched an attack against us?

There aren't any Arab countries that are actually capable of launching a conventional attack on us, so it's a bloody stupid question to ask. Who said anything about countries?

When I say us I am talking about the western world. When I say them I am talking about the arab world. Go on, I'm waiting for your examples.

How about by trying to subvert Western countries by immigrating en masse and exploiting bleeding-heart liberals such as yourself to allow radical Islam to make cultural and legal headway? Does it not strike you as disturbing that some of the most extremist Muslims around were born and grew up in Western countries, and there are Muslim countries that are a lot less tolerant of extremist Islam than we are? That the worst single act of terrorism ever in this country was committed by British Muslims who were born and raised in this country and who appeared to be no different from anybody else?

How about by almost getting planning permission to build a bloody enormous mega-mosque in the middle of our capital city (it would be the largest place of worship in the country, by far) funded largely by extremist Saudis?

How about by remaining an insular, retrograde force of sheer ignorance despite being surrounded by rational thought? Refusing to integrate, breaking every more there is in our society then claiming victimhood when it backfires on them. Demanding special treatment in secular countries. Recent case where some 15 year old cow sued her school at much expense for suspending her for wearing full Islamic dress instead of the school uniform that everyone is required to wear - and won.

How about by burning, killing and murdering whenever things don't go their way?

Guidelines for the education of Muslims in the UK as proposed by the Muslim Council of Britain. Who the **** do they think they are?

I kill your family, I burn down your house, and then throw the rest of your family in prison and continually torture them there without filing any charges. You have an ak47 with a few rounds in it and you just so happen to know where I live. What will you choose to do?

Oh, that's alright then. Being the victim of an unfortunate series of events is a free pass to commit crimes worthy of the death penalty. I say we just do away with the justice system altogether, it's clearly unfair to hold people accountable for their actions when they were forced to be a cock because of their suffering.

Also, you don't want to help repiv out but pointing out arab countries aggression toward the western world? I'm still waiting for him to reply.

Believe it or not, I have other things to do than post on halflife2.net. Occassionally I eat and sleep...

 

[Sidewinder]

lol muslim teaching guide,that's just ****ing ridiculous.
It's funny how most people that move to a new country adapt to the new country yet at the same hold some of their own culture,that's the way to go imo...but Muslims don't really get that though.They would would probaly would their own f'ing government in the UK.

 

[repiV]

Uhm, delusions, delusions...

Rebels in Afghanistan and Iraq (no, they're not terrorists, because they do not want to spread fear. They want occupants out of their country) are created through a mix of circumstances, including most importantly the presence of American and other NATO country occupation forces, peers and religion. In these circumstances there is hardly a choice.

Same goes for actual terrorists (you know, those who blow things up or shoot people down to spread fear and terror).

So your claim that "They can choose." is more or less, FALSE.

Either free will applies to everyone or it applies to noone. That's a complete load of bollocks, and any semi-rational Iraqi who wanted the best for their country would help the Americans out and take advantage of the vast, vast resources being poured into their country, not shoot at them. It's precisely because these ****sticks decided to wage jihad on the infidels that Iraq is such a quagmire now. It's got nothing to do with our presence and everything to do with the reaction to it, which proves beyond doubt that the Middle East isn't worth a single penny of our resources.

 

[repiV]

lol muslim teaching guide,that's just ****ing ridiculous.
It's funny how most people that move to a new country adapt to the new country yet at the same hold some of their own culture,that's the way to go imo...but Muslims don't really get that though.They would would probaly would their own f'ing government in the UK.

If you try to make your new country the same as the one you left, you're not an immigrant - you're a colonist...

 

[No Limit]

Ok, so you couldn't name a single example of the Middle East "bringing the rest of the world down to their level".

What you instead seem to suggest is that Muslims have no right to be in your country. I guess that you don't have the same problem with the spread of christianity to my country.

Oh, that's alright then. Being the victim of an unfortunate series of events is a free pass to commit crimes worthy of the death penalty.

Unfortunate series of events caused by who? There is a difference between your pilot light blowing up your house and a Israeli bomb blowing it up. Are you honestly going to tell me that if your entire neighborhood was destroyed by some asshole and that asshole was not punished for it you would sit by and do nothing? If you answer yes to that you are a coward.

 

[repiV]

Ok, so you couldn't name a single example of the Middle East "bringing the rest of the world down to their level".

Actually, I gave you several, off the top of my head. They don't have to have big powerful conventional armies to bring the rest of the world down to their level, they can do it far more effectively by cultivating acceptance of their backwards ways as they are managing right now with totally alarming success. We're just as guilty, for being tolerant to the point of tolerating intolerance.

What you instead seem to suggest is that Muslims have no right to be in your country. I guess that you don't have the same problem with the spread of christianity to my country.

Muslims who want to alter the character of this country to suit them have no right to be here, no.
What "spread"? Your country was Christian at inception.

Unfortunate series of events caused by who? There is a difference between your pilot light blowing up your house and a Israeli bomb blowing it up. Are you honestly going to tell me that if your entire neighborhood was destroyed by some asshole and that asshole was not punished for it you would sit by and do nothing? If you answer yes to that you are a coward.

Right, so if some arsehole destroys my entire neighbourhood - as an unfortunate side-effect of a legitimate but perhaps OTT operation, that gives me the right to slaughter his young family in revenge. Step AWAY from the crack pipe.

 

[No Limit]

Muslims who want to alter the character of this country to suit them have no right to be here, no.
What "spread"? Your country was Christian at inception.

How did you come up with that uneducated response? Was George Washington a Christian? Was Thomas Jefferson? Why don't you go through the signers of the declaration of independance and name the christians on there. Why don't you point out in our consitution where it says that they were just kidding when they said seperation of church and state.

But I guess your response is no, you don't have a problem with christianity spreading to this country. Is that correct, I just want to confirm this before I call you a hypocrite.

Right, so if some arsehole destroys my entire neighbourhood - as an unfortunate side-effect of a legitimate but perhaps OTT operation, that gives me the right to slaughter his young family in revenge. Step AWAY from the crack pipe.

Legitimate from whos point of view?

And you didn't answer the simple question. Its a yes or no.

 

[repiV]

How did you come up with that uneducated response? Was George Washington a Christian? Was Thomas Jefferson? Why don't you go through the signers of the declaration of independance and name the christians on there. Why don't you point out in our consitution where it says that they were just kidding when they said seperation of church and state.

Just because your country is secular doesn't remotely change the fact that it has and has always had a very Christian character.

But I guess your response is no, you don't have a problem with christianity spreading to this country. Is that correct, I just want to confirm this before I call you a hypocrite.

It hasn't "spread", it was always there. As for the rise of Christian extremism in America, yes it is a concern but it doesn't really affect my life in any major way. A Christian extremist will build bullshit "museums" and advocate abstinence-only sex education whereas a Muslim extremist will behead civilians and blow up trains. And Christian extremism is a uniquely American problem perpetrated by a small minority of American Christians - Islamic extremism is a global problem endorsed by a very large proportion of Muslims.
To consider them equal is farcical.

Legitimate from whos point of view?

Legitimate meaning that it had a military purpose and wasn't aimed at the civilians.

And you didn't answer the simple question. Its a yes or no.

No, it's not a yes or no. Your question was logically incorrect, since taking revenge on the person that wronged you is not in any way, shape or form the same as targeting civilians who belong to the same country as the military which hurt you (unintentionally, I might add).


And why are you ignoring the part of my post concering Islamic cultural imperialism?

 

[No Limit]

Just because your country is secular doesn't remotely change the fact that it has and has always had a very Christian character.

What a cop out.

I'm fine with people thinking we have a christian character, I would probably even agree with that. It doesn't change the fact it should stay out of our government, yet these "christian invaders" if you will are trying to change that. Again, no serious opposition to that from you, right?

A Christian extremist will build bullshit "museums" and advocate abstinence-only sex education whereas a Muslim extremist will behead civilians and blow up trains. And Christian extremism is a uniquely American problem - Islamic extremism is a global problem.
To consider them equal is farcical.

You really are a piece of work. Point me to examples of muslim countries doing this just because they are muslim.

Legitimate meaning that it had a military purpose and wasn't aimed at the civilians.

So shooting at ambulances was not aiming at civillians? Why will israel not release the pictures of targets they bombed last summer before they hit them to prove that they were targeting fighters, not civillians? Why did they target UN peace keeping posts?

 

[repiV]

What a cop out.

I'm fine with people thinking we have a christian character, I would probably even agree with that. It doesn't change the fact it should stay out of our government, yet these "christian invaders" if you will are trying to change that. Again, no serious opposition to that from you, right?

Yes, of course it should stay out of your government. Why are you characterising it as the "spread of Christianity to your country" when what you mean is the intrusion of Christianity into your government?
If you say something other than what you actually mean, don't be surprised when I don't understand what the hell you're talking about.
Why are you even mentioning it, anyway? It isn't relevant - you're just trying to refocus my attention from the actual issue at hand.

You really are a piece of work. Point me to examples of muslim countries doing this just because they are muslim.

Where did I say anything about Muslim COUNTRIES?

So shooting at ambulances was not aiming at civillians?

Who knows why they were shooting at ambulances? It certainly wasn't because they wanted to show the big bad paramedics who's boss. It warrants an investigation, but it's a ****up, not terrorism.

Why will israel not release the pictures of targets they bombed last summer before they hit them to prove that they were targeting fighters, not civillians?

Maybe because they ****ed up?

Why did they target UN peace keeping posts?

I seem to recall there is a lot more to that story than you're letting on - such as Hezbollah being present and repeated warnings to the UN peacekeepers in question.


Also, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't continue to selectively ignore parts of my posts that you can't be bothered to answer, seeing as I have the courtesy to reply in full to you. Perhaps you're trying to guide the course of the discussion away from the core issues and down a path that makes you look good. Either way, it's starting to piss me off.

 

[No Limit]

Where did I say anything about Muslim COUNTRIES?

What does that have to do with anything? You said that if muslims continue to spread through your country people will get their heads chopped off and then you turned around and said christianity would never do that. So you must have examples of this happening before, I assumed those examples would have to be in muslim countries which have been around for ages. So go on, examples please.

Who knows why they were shooting at ambulances? It certainly wasn't because they wanted to show the big bad paramedics who's boss. It warrants an investigation, but it's a ****up, not terrorism.

Why is that not terrorism? Because they weren't brown?

BTW: Investigations won't happen eventhough virtually every country around the globe has called for them. And the reason they wont happen is because America has veto power.

Maybe because they ****ed up?

So we should just forget about it? Why wont they release their evidance explaining why they ****ed up? But let me address your next 2 quotes and I'll come back to this.

I seem to recall there is a lot more to that story than you're letting on - such as Hezbollah being present and repeated warnings to the UN peacekeepers in question.

The only source I saw that in was the jpost which I'm sorry I can not trust alone. If you have a better source for this go a head and post it. Even if somehow that is true why did they not tell those peacekeepers that they were going to strike?

Also, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't continue to selectively ignore parts of my posts that you can't be bothered to answer, seeing as I have the courtesy to reply in full to you. Perhaps you're trying to guide the course of the discussion away from the core issues and down a path that makes you look good. Either way, it's starting to piss me off.

Let me apologize, I was at work. I had a lot of deadlines not only today but all week and really shouldn't have been here in the first place. For some reason I just couldn't resist, this place is like crack. This is why I tend to go back and edit my posts all the time during the day, because I simply don't have time to reread everything when I post. If there is something important you want me to address I am at home now so go a head.

But what I replied to was important to me because it points out how we aren't as innocent as you paint us to be in all of this. That is by far the most important point of this discussion. It has nothing to do with justifying terrorism, it has to do with the fact both sides need to stop all of this shit. And that will not happen if people like you continue to ignore why these people are so pissed off at us.

Earlier you said "we" are superior in every way to islam countries. You said you don't give a shit about their point of you because killing thousands of innocent civillians is never justified. But thousands of civillians keep getting killed on both sides of this conflict. You say the clear difference is we never intentionally target innocent civillians. I really hope this is true, but do you at the very least understand why "they" have a hard time believing "us"? You said above in response to Israel killing innocent civillians that they ****ed up. But how do you want the families of those civillians to believe that when Israel refuses to release the evidance that proves they weren't intentionally targeting those civillians? By conservative estimates 1,000 civillians died last summer in Israel's offensive, and absolutely nothing positive was accomplished. Instead they pretty much destroyed a democratically elected goverment that is now on the verge of total collapse.

Do you love your country? Because I love mine. So I wouldn't be too happy with another country coming in here, killing a bunch of my fellow country man, ****ing up the government, and then just leaving without accomplishing anything. But I guess I live in America, and since we are so privliged this will probably never happen to us in my lifetime. So does that mean I should completely be oblivious to this point of view? Because I was lucky enough to score residency here and then citizenship?

Most muslims are good hard working people, I know many of them. But more of them continually are getting more and more frustrated and outright pissed off at what is happening to their fellow muslims around the world. This is why so many people in your country, people born there, are turning to extremism. If you dispute this how do you explain this rise in extremism?

Until people like you realize that this shit doesn't simply happen because they are evil and we are good this shit will continue to happen. And thousands of people on both sides will continue to die each year because of this. Stop being so simple minded, realize you were privlidged enough to be born in the western world but also realize others weren't as lucky and instead were born not only into poverty you can't even imainge but also born into a system where their friends, family, and neighboors continue to get killed for virtually no reason at all. If you were born into that you might understand, if you could open your mind up for just a second and stop thinking in black and white / good and evil you might understand. But for some reason you refuse to. I used to think you were the same as nemesis, maybe I was wrong based on my discussions with you over the past few days. But this simple minded/arrogant thinking from you continues to confuse me.

 

[clarky003]

Sorry to butt in but it appears the Bush administration is now contradicting themselves.

http://pressesc.com/01181866305_burns_is_lying_according_to_gates

This suggests to me that the so called 'evidence' of Iran supplying weapons is nothing more than false propaganda.

 

[Nemesis6]

Yeah, nice source. Have a look at some of the stuff they post/host: http://pressesc.com/01171128822_top_5_anti_war_posters
Perhaps, just perhaps they might be wrong about this?

 

[CptStern]

Yeah, nice source. Have a look at some of the stuff they post/host: http://pressesc.com/01171128822_top_5_anti_war_posters
Perhaps, just perhaps they might be wrong about this?

nope:

http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrori.../analysis_us_takes_aim_at_iran_finances/7498/

Defense Secretary Robert Gates pedaled the information more softly Thursday.

"I have seen analysis suggesting a considerable flow of weapons and support from Iran. And I have not seen information that would directly tie it to approval by the government of Iran,"

but of course a simple google search would have told you that ..see simply asking whether a source is good is not enough ..you must prove it ..you make this soooo easy Nemesis

 

[Nemesis6]

I did search, and that website was the only source of what it had posted, which challenges its credibility. You've done the same thing. By the way, I was under the impression that NATO was the one who announced this.

Now, "I have seen analysis suggesting a considerable flow of weapons and support from Iran. And I have not seen information that would directly tie it to approval by the government of Iran," Gates said. "That said ... the quantity that we're seeing makes it difficult to believe that the Iranian government doesn't have some indication or some knowledge of it."

Cherry-picking a little?

 

[CptStern]

I did search, and that website was the only source of what it had posted, which challenges its credibility. You've done the same thing. By the way, I was under the impression that NATO was the one who announced this.

it took me less than a minute to find another source ..so now that I've proved it authentic do you want to revise your ealier assessment? perhaps even comment on it in light of it's authenticity? no, that's giving too much credit ..you'll further try to disprove it by focusing on an unrelated insignificant point ..observe:

Now, "I have seen analysis suggesting a considerable flow of weapons and support from Iran. And I have not seen information that would directly tie it to approval by the government of Iran," Gates said. "That said ... the quantity that we're seeing makes it difficult to believe that the Iranian government doesn't have some indication or some knowledge of it."

Cherry-picking a little?

no surprise that you would leap to something speculative and ignore direct evidence that's plain for all to see ..probably because your partisan pov wont allow you to question official doctrine

and no it wasnt cherry picking because what he said was completely speculative:

the quantity that we're seeing makes it difficult to believe that the Iranian government doesn't have some indication or some knowledge of it

completely speculative


again what do you say about this part of the statement ..dont try to dance around it because I will stubbornly call you on it again and again

I have seen analysis suggesting a considerable flow of weapons and support from Iran. And I have not seen information that would directly tie it to approval by the government of Iran

you'd think the head of CIA would see any evidence pretaining to the accusations considering that's his ****ing job

 

[No Limit]

So first the source is bad. You are proved wrong there and now he is not clear as to what he means? Dude, what is wrong with you?

Your original idiotic topic was "Iran caught red-handed". Yet it turns out there is no actual proof. You are full of shit once again.

 

[CptStern]

so what did we learn from this thread? well now that it's been proven there's no evidence that Iran is arming the insurgency the only other thing to be learned form this thread is that the US has been funding terrorist groups in iran

"We've sent a message that is understood throughout the world: if you harbor a terrorist, if you support a terrorist, if you feed a terrorist, you're just as guilty as the terrorists" - George W Bush

 

[No Limit]

Bush was just kidding when he said that. Terrorism is only called terrorism when brown people do it.

 

[CptStern]

Bush was just kidding when he said that.

I'm just kidding hyuk!

 

[repiV]

What does that have to do with anything? You said that if muslims continue to spread through your country people will get their heads chopped off and then you turned around and said christianity would never do that. So you must have examples of this happening before, I assumed those examples would have to be in muslim countries which have been around for ages. So go on, examples please.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, tbh.

Why is that not terrorism? Because they weren't brown?

Don't be so trite - clearly you have more intelligent things to say than that.
Evidently because it wasn't calculated murder designed to instil fear. There was some kind of tactical reason or error involved, and nothing you can say will ever convince me that the IDF blows up ambulances just for the sake of blowing up ambulances.

BTW: Investigations won't happen eventhough virtually every country around the globe has called for them. And the reason they wont happen is because America has veto power.

The power of veto undermines the entire point of the UN I'm sure we agree. Although the UN is a total waste of space as far as I'm concerned anyway, however not as bad as the EU.
And yes, there should absolutely be a serious investigation.

So we should just forget about it? Why wont they release their evidance explaining why they ****ed up? But let me address your next 2 quotes and I'll come back to this.

No, we shouldn't just forget about it. Look, the point is, you're comparing chalk and cheese here. Israel certainly aren't whiter-than-white, but they're sure as hell not evil, oppressive terrorists either. When these things happen it's not because they want to add to the Palestinian death toll and they certainly don't go around celebrating it afterwards.

The only source I saw that in was the jpost which I'm sorry I can not trust alone. If you have a better source for this go a head and post it. Even if somehow that is true why did they not tell those peacekeepers that they were going to strike?

Well, I can't find one. I can, however, find lots of sources indicating that the post was not intentionally targeted.

From MSNBC:

Israel?s U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman expressed his ?deep regret? for the deaths and denied the post was intentionally targeted.

In any case, there is no concrete evidence confirming your interpretation of events, and just why would they intentionally kill UN peacekeepers anyway? What exactly would that accomplish? Nothing, nothing at all!

Let me apologize, I was at work. I had a lot of deadlines not only today but all week and really shouldn't have been here in the first place. For some reason I just couldn't resist, this place is like crack. This is why I tend to go back and edit my posts all the time during the day, because I simply don't have time to reread everything when I post. If there is something important you want me to address I am at home now so go a head.

No problem. What do you do, out of interest?

But what I replied to was important to me because it points out how we aren't as innocent as you paint us to be in all of this. That is by far the most important point of this discussion. It has nothing to do with justifying terrorism, it has to do with the fact both sides need to stop all of this shit. And that will not happen if people like you continue to ignore why these people are so pissed off at us.

Every nation on the face of this planet - at least, every nation that gets involved on the world stage - is immoral, deceptive and self-serving.
But some are a whole lot better than others.

Earlier you said "we" are superior in every way to islam countries. You said you don't give a shit about their point of you because killing thousands of innocent civillians is never justified. But thousands of civillians keep getting killed on both sides of this conflict. You say the clear difference is we never intentionally target innocent civillians. I really hope this is true, but do you at the very least understand why "they" have a hard time believing "us"?

The difference between intentionally targeting civilians and them getting caught in the crossfire is an absolutely massive one. In any modern war civilians tend to take the brunt of the casualties, that is the unfortunate reality of things. It's not really an argument you can use against anyone in particular.
"They" are brainwashed almost from birth to hate the West and submit to Allah's will...we will be hated regardless of our actions, as we are the perfect scapegoat for all the ills of that region of the world. If only America wasn't oppressing us, we'd be rich like them...down with America...

You said above in response to Israel killing innocent civillians that they ****ed up. But how do you want the families of those civillians to believe that when Israel refuses to release the evidance that proves they weren't intentionally targeting those civillians? By conservative estimates 1,000 civillians died last summer in Israel's offensive, and absolutely nothing positive was accomplished. Instead they pretty much destroyed a democratically elected goverment that is now on the verge of total collapse.

Well, I can't answer why they won't release the evidence but my speculation is that the media has a great knack for twisting facts into something completely different than the reality and they would rather leave a question mark hanging over it than have a media frenzy condemning them for something they didn't do.
Just as a random example of the power of the media to do this, the BBC recently aired a bullshit program about kids who've died crossing this road near their school, spent 3/4 of the program tugging at the heartstrings and came to the conclusions that a) the speed limit should be lowered from 30mph to 20mph and that b) they need to put a speed camera there, which would stop people going over 34mph (but none of them did, anyway).
Completely ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single pedestrian crossing on the entire road, and installing one would solve the whole problem. And it would actually be harder to cross the road if the traffic constantly moved at 20mph because there would never be any gaps.
As for the democratically elected terrorist group, good riddance.

Do you love your country? Because I love mine. So I wouldn't be too happy with another country coming in here, killing a bunch of my fellow country man, ****ing up the government, and then just leaving without accomplishing anything. But I guess I live in America, and since we are so privliged this will probably never happen to us in my lifetime. So does that mean I should completely be oblivious to this point of view? Because I was lucky enough to score residency here and then citizenship?

No, I don't love my country. I like it less and less each day as it seeps ever closer towards totalitarianism and total injustice with no apparent way out.
Referring to your Lebanon analogy, you would have elected a terrorist group sworn to annihilate a neighbouring country so shouldn't really be too surprised when they put a stop to any possibility of such happening.
Where are you from originally? I figured you were born and bred in San Francisco...

Most muslims are good hard working people, I know many of them.

So what?
Being a good hard working person doesn't necessarily mean that you belong in a particular foreign culture. Besides, if "most Muslims" were genuinely that hard-working, the Middle East wouldn't be a heap of shit despite having every opportunity to be rich, prosperous and successful - opportunities that many other third world countries don't have, yet somehow manage to be much better places.

But more of them continually are getting more and more frustrated and outright pissed off at what is happening to their fellow muslims around the world. This is why so many people in your country, people born there, are turning to extremism. If you dispute this how do you explain this rise in extremism?

First of all, if that is the case, then you have just made light of the fact that having Muslims in our country is a major security risk.
Secondly, if their allegiances bring with them a conflict of interest that serious then they should be deported. Get with the program or get out, that is the reality of it - whether our foreign policy is right or not is irrelevant, we are not obliged to make allowances for people who don't like us but want to come and enjoy our economy regardless.
The rise in extremism is more attributable to the pervasive and all-encompassing power of Islamic brainwashing that is being exploited to a far greater degree than anything else. Islamic terrorism is nothing new.

Until people like you realize that this shit doesn't simply happen because they are evil and we are good this shit will continue to happen. And thousands of people on both sides will continue to die each year because of this. Stop being so simple minded, realize you were privlidged enough to be born in the western world but also realize others weren't as lucky and instead were born not only into poverty you can't even imainge but also born into a system where their friends, family, and neighboors continue to get killed for virtually no reason at all. If you were born into that you might understand, if you could open your mind up for just a second and stop thinking in black and white / good and evil you might understand. But for some reason you refuse to. I used to think you were the same as nemesis, maybe I was wrong based on my discussions with you over the past few days. But this simple minded/arrogant thinking from you continues to confuse me.

Billions of people all over the world are born into poverty they can't even imagine, suffer hardship from war and disease...in fact I dare say the average Arab has a far higher quality of life than your average African. Yet the extremism remains a solely Muslim trait. It even infects those who come from privileged backgrounds. Clearly the underlying factor here is Islam, not hardship.
When was the last time you heard about Chinese terrorists or Indian terrorists?

 

[Nemesis6]

it took me less than a minute to find another source ..so now that I've proved it authentic do you want to revise your ealier assessment? perhaps even comment on it in light of it's authenticity? no, that's giving too much credit ..you'll further try to disprove it by focusing on an unrelated insignificant point ..observe:

I have no reason to doubt that Iran is not helping the Taliban. They'd get the benefit of the doubt if they weren't already involved in other proxy wars, so it's pretty likely that they are.

"There's irrefutable evidence the Iranians are now doing this," Burns said. "It's certainly coming from the government of Iran. It's coming from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard [NOTE: The same guys who fought with HizbAllah and trained them to use the Iranian-issued equipment during the second Lebanon war corps command, which is a basic unit of the Iranian government."

Defense Secretary Robert Gates pedaled the information more softly Thursday.

"I have seen analysis suggesting a considerable flow of weapons and support from Iran. And I have not seen information that would directly tie it to approval by the government of Iran," Gates said. "That said ... the quantity that we're seeing makes it difficult to believe that the Iranian government doesn't have some indication or some knowledge of it."

Another thing:

We explained how Iran uses front companies and other mechanisms that make it difficult, if not impossible, for businesses dealing with Iran to know their customer or counterparty," he said.

Maybe that's why they're a little confused themselves? Can't be sure.

 

[No Limit]

Nemesis, again, you were proved to be full of shit. They were not caught red handed as you said, all this evidance is speculation from people like you that have a predifined position on this topic and nothing anyone says or does will change that position.

repiV I am at work so I'll get back to you later. A large part of my job is graphic/web design and web based programming and databasing.

 

[Nemesis6]

all this evidance is speculation from people like you that have a predifined position on this topic

That's speculation, too. Actually, those are assumptions.

 

[repiV]

Nemesis, again, you were proved to be full of shit. They were not caught red handed as you said, all this evidance is speculation from people like you that have a predifined position on this topic and nothing anyone says or does will change that position.

As you might have noticed, I've avoided passing comment on anything Nemesis says for a long time - positive or negative.
I think it's time I changed that - Nemesis, all you serve to accomplish with your half-baked hysterical ranting is to discredit everyone who disagrees with the faux-liberal doctrine of our time. Really you're just as bad as the screeching leftie harpies, and you're not doing any of us any favours.
Having said that, Nemesis is hardly the only person on here guilty of cherry-picking the facts to suit their point of view.

repiV I am at work so I'll get back to you later. A large part of my job is graphic/web design and web based programming and databasing.

Yep, cool.

 

[CptStern]

I have no reason to doubt that Iran is not helping the Taliban. They'd get the benefit of the doubt if they weren't already involved in other proxy wars, so it's pretty likely that they are.

the head of the cia doesnt see any evidence yet I should take your word for it? riiiight

Another thing:


Maybe that's why they're a little confused themselves? Can't be sure.

doubtful considering the CIA has a history of tracking weapons when it comes to iran so does israel

The affair links quite disparate matters: on the one hand was the arms sales to Iran, and on the other, funding of Contra militants in Nicaragua. Direct funding had been made illegal through the Boland Amendment. The affair emerged when a Lebanese newspaper reported that the U.S. sold arms to Iran in exchange for the release of hostages by Hezbollah. E-mails sent by Oliver North to John Poindexter support this.[6] However, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. claims that the reason was to establish links with elements of the military in Iran.

....

Michael Ledeen, a consultant of Robert McFarlane, asked Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres for help in the sale of arms to Iran.[11] The general idea behind the plan was for Israel to ship weapons to Iran, then the US would reimburse Israel with the same weapons. The Israeli government required that the sale of arms meet high level approval from the United States government, and when Robert McFarlane convinced them that the U.S. government approved the sale, Israel obliged by agreeing to sell the arms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

 

[clarky003]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfok3voi6Pw[/YOUTUBE]

*jaw on the floor*

Bolton and Hannity are nut bars, just listen to Hannity contradicting Gates, and Bolton essentially spurring on war. These people have an agenda and it runs far deeper than the 'possibility' of a wmd threat, Iran hasn't waged war or invaded a country in their whole history ffs.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

AFAIK No Limit is not trying to push you into sympathising with people who kill but rather into understanding why they might be motivated to do so - that is, why torturing people's families is counter-productive.

Source?

 

[Sidewinder]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfok3voi6Pw[/YOUTUBE]

*jaw on the floor*

Bolton and Hannity are nut bars, just listen to Hannity contradicting Gates, and Bolton essentially spurring on war. These people have an agenda and it runs far deeper than the 'possibility' of a wmd threat, Iran hasn't waged war or invaded a country in their whole history ffs.

you're a nut case he's a nut case,he has a well paid job your a Internet conspiracy nut,you loose.



also you fail at history Mr.tinfoil hat
have you ever heard of the Iraq/Iran war?

you clearly fail at all levels Mr."I educate myself with prisonplanet.com"

 

[No Limit]

Source?

Source for what?

I think you've been spending too much time with nemesis.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Source?

His post is right there. Read it.

Or are you looking for a source that shows us that torturing people annoys their friends and relatives?

 

[No Limit]

repiV, instead of getting into never ending quote wars I will do this instead.

Your entire argument continues to lie on they are evil, Israel is civil:

whiter-than-white, but they're sure as hell not evil, oppressive terrorists either.

What you are saying is that you believe what Israel does always is justified and you expect everyone to believe you. In essence when they "**** up" as you pointed out no evidance needs to be released to explain how and why they ****ed up, no disciplinary action needs to be taken, and we should just support all other military action by Israel no matter how many times they continue to **** up. I really can't say much more to you based on that as that is what you believe. You claim that if your family was killed by an Israeli bomb you would not ask for any justification, you would not ask for any evidance of why it happened, you wouldn't even really be that pissed off by it as you would somehow understand why they were bombing your country. I don't know if you truly believe that or if you are just saying that to defend your position, but I simply can not argue with you when you claim such an absurd thing. Like I said, you completely refuse to look at this from any other standpoint. I simply can not believe how anyone would argue that the largest religion on this planet should not be allowed to practice that relgion openly, that somehow they are not welcome in your country. These people as you said were born in your country, just like you were. Yet for some reason they don't belong there because they have a religion you don't like?

Do you fail to understand how the religious right is doing the exact same thing in this country? They are saying if you don't share the same "family values" as they do you are evil and you don't belong here? It is the worst kind of hypocracy ever.

And you again mentioned that muslims in muslim countries are poor because they choose to be poor. We discussed this before, why don't you go back and read that thread again. Muslim countries are rich, it has nothing to do with that. Its the fact those riches are distributed among very small amounts of poeple. If you are making a dollar a day there really isn't much you can do to become rich, no matter how vast of an economy a select few in your country are enjoying. But maybe you know something about managing money that I don't. So lets say you have a family and you are paid $1 a day, all other open jobs pay the same amount. You need to provide housing, food, and other necessities to your family. Your life sucks, what would you do to improve it to a level where it doesnt suck anymore?

 

[CptStern]

you're a nut case he's a nut case,he has a well paid job your a Internet conspiracy nut,you loose.

lose, not loose ..oh and Bolton MUST be credible because he has a well paying job? did you really use that statement to prove what exactly? that he makes money :upstare: bolton is a neo conservative goon more interested in pushing neo conservative agenda than serving the american people ...I'll never understand how some people can stupidly put their faith into someone based on nothing more than their nationality/political affiliation ..as if that means something

also you fail at history Mr.tinfoil hat
have you ever heard of the Iraq/Iran war?

you clearly fail at all levels Mr."I educate myself with prisonplanet.com"

you fail for being a condescending jerkoff and most of all because YOU ARE WRONG .."ever heard of the iran-iraq war?" ..have you? you're implying Iran has indeed been the aggressor during the iraq-iran war when the opposite is true

The war followed months of rising tension between the Iranian Islamic republic and secular nationalist Iraq. In mid-September 1980 Iraq attacked, in the mistaken belief that Iranian political disarray would guarantee a quick victory.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The war began when Iraq invaded Iran on 22 September 1980..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War

It officially began on Sept. 22, 1980, with an Iraqi land and air invasion of western Iran ...

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0825449.html

 

[repiV]

repiV, instead of getting into never ending quote wars I will do this instead.

Your entire argument continues to lie on they are evil, Israel is civil:

My entire argument lies on maintaining a sense of perspective over taking the politically correct viewpoint.

What you are saying is that you believe what Israel does always is justified and you expect everyone to believe you.

No, I didn't say that. I said you're comparing chalk and cheese. Just because Israel sometimes does things that are not warranted does not make them morally equivalent to Hamas or Hezbollah, by ANY stretch of the imagination. It might mean they're a bit more immune to scrutiny than they should be thanks to the US, but it doesn't make them terrorists.

In essence when they "**** up" as you pointed out no evidance needs to be released to explain how and why they ****ed up, no disciplinary action needs to be taken, and we should just support all other military action by Israel no matter how many times they continue to **** up. I really can't say much more to you based on that as that is what you believe.

I didn't say any of those things, you're putting words in my mouth. Go back and actually read my posts this time.
I don't condone the lack of restraint shown by Israel in the Lebanon incident, but at the same time I support them in light of the frothing at the mouth hysterical mindless bullshit displayed by so many claiming that Israel are evil or persecuting the poor Palestinians or waging a war of aggression or some such similar bullshit. Completely glossing over the fact that the scale of civilian casualties is largely due to Hezbollah's use of human shields and setting up in civilian areas.

You claim that if your family was killed by an Israeli bomb you would not ask for any justification, you would not ask for any evidance of why it happened, you wouldn't even really be that pissed off by it as you would somehow understand why they were bombing your country.

Where, pray tell, did I say that?
I conjured up no such scenarios concerning my family and Israeli bombs.
Furthermore, how is the fact that war destroys families and brings misery relevant to anything? I'm sure the Germans civilians were pretty mad at us for bombing their country in WW2, it doesn't mean shit. War makes things emotionally personal where logically they are not. The feelings of an anguished civilian are completely irrelevant to who was in the right.

I don't know if you truly believe that or if you are just saying that to defend your position, but I simply can not argue with you when you claim such an absurd thing. Like I said, you completely refuse to look at this from any other standpoint. I simply can not believe how anyone would argue that the largest religion on this planet should not be allowed to practice that relgion openly, that somehow they are not welcome in your country.

I never said any of those things.
I did say that Muslims who show contempt for our way of life and want to try and change our country to suit them (ie. they are colonists, not immigrants) are not welcome here. The same applies to anyone with that mindset, but the fact is that every other immigrant group integrates pretty well, doesn't cause any trouble, gets on with their lives and contributes something.
Refusal to integrate, rigidly maintaining their own social norms which conflict with ours, preaching death to the West, trying to alter the very character of the nation to make it Islamic, suicide bombings, terrorist attacks and generally pissing over everything Britain stands for is solely the realm of the Muslim population. They are not welcome here in my eyes - and that is due to their behaviour, not their identity.
I'm not a racist so don't even try to pull that one over on me. I went clubbing with friends the other night and I was the only white guy in the entire club. The fact remains that Islam is incompatible with Western culture and we are seeing the effects of that today. Something like 27% of British Muslims think that the London Underground suicide bombers are martyrs, which is pretty ****ed up to say the least.
Just as a little "heads up" for you also, we have the most militant, least integrated Muslim population in the Western world. Significantly worse than in your neck of the woods, although such trends can still be observed over there.
I have no doubt whatsoever this is because we as a nation have the attitude that everyone is welcome here, come in, bring your friends, make yourselves comfortable and do what you want. We don't put pressure on immigrants to integrate as the US does, in fact we positively go out of our way to make allowances for them.

These people as you said were born in your country, just like you were. Yet for some reason they don't belong there because they have a religion you don't like?

Islam isn't just a religion, it's a culture, a legal system, a society in its own right and a total all-encompassing way of life. This is the fundamental difference between Islam and, say, Christianity. It has more in common with a crazy cult than a mainstream religion.
Evidently if they suicide bombed our capital (nearly killing my best friend incidentally) in the name of Islam against the West, they don't belong here. How you could suggest they do is beyond me.

Do you fail to understand how the religious right is doing the exact same thing in this country? They are saying if you don't share the same "family values" as they do you are evil and you don't belong here? It is the worst kind of hypocracy ever.

No, I see it quite clearly but I fail to see how its relevant to the discussion at hand. It is of comparatively minute concern to me.

And you again mentioned that muslims in muslim countries are poor because they choose to be poor.

No, I didn't say that, either. I said that people in Muslim countries are poor because Islamic society is a useless piece of shit, unable to make even moderately adequate use of the vast resources at its disposal. A view that you are agreeing with by virtue of your comments below.

We discussed this before, why don't you go back and read that thread again. Muslim countries are rich, it has nothing to do with that. Its the fact those riches are distributed among very small amounts of poeple. If you are making a dollar a day there really isn't much you can do to become rich, no matter how vast of an economy a select few in your country are enjoying. But maybe you know something about managing money that I don't. So lets say you have a family and you are paid $1 a day, all other open jobs pay the same amount. You need to provide housing, food, and other necessities to your family. Your life sucks, what would you do to improve it to a level where it doesnt suck anymore?

Frankly, I don't care if they live on $1 a day. I'm past caring. As long as they live on $1 a day over there and not over here then problem solved.

 

[No Limit]

No, I didn't say that. I said you're comparing chalk and cheese. Just because Israel sometimes does things that are not warranted does not make them morally equivalent to Hamas or Hezbollah, by ANY stretch of the imagination. It might mean they're a bit more immune to scrutiny than they should be thanks to the US, but it doesn't make them terrorists.

well since we are playing the game of "I never said that" point me to where I said Israel were terrorists.

It has nothing to do with terrorism, it has to do with a war. Israel continues to take over land that doesn't belong to them, and they do it with hi-tech weapons that all of these countries they are taking over could not possibly match. So their only way to fight back, to defend themselves, is through the killing of innocent Israelis. Sure, it doesn't make it right but there is a reason they are doing this. And if Israel wasn't taking the actions they continue to take we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

I haven't looked at any stats but I will make an educated guess here and say Israel has killed by far more innocent civillians than Hamas or Hezbollah every could. I will bet you that I'm right.

I didn't say any of those things, you're putting words in my mouth. Go back and actually read my posts this time.
I don't condone the lack of restraint shown by Israel in the Lebanon incident, but at the same time I support them in light of the frothing at the mouth hysterical mindless bullshit displayed by so many claiming that Israel are evil or persecuting the poor Palestinians or waging a war of aggression or some such similar bullshit. Completely glossing over the fact that the scale of civilian casualties is largely due to Hezbollah's use of human shields and setting up in civilian areas.

What proof do you have that hezbollah has used human shields? I think this is more Israeli propogenda that allows them to explain away every civillian casualty that occurs from their aggression. And yes, they are set up in cities, where the hell else would they set up? In open farm lands with big signs saying "Israel, Bomb Here". Again, you are trying to say that Hezbollah should fight fair, until you give them billions of dollars in support you really should not be making such a ridiculous claim.

I did say that Muslims who show contempt for our way of life and want to try and change our country to suit them (ie. they are colonists, not immigrants) are not welcome here. The same applies to anyone with that mindset, but the fact is that every other immigrant group integrates pretty well, doesn't cause any trouble, gets on with their lives and contributes something.

Who said anything about immigrants? We are talking about Muslims born in your country. Apperantly you don't think they should have the same rights as you to express themselves.

And how are they trying to influance you, by building mosques? Got some other examples?

They are not welcome here in my eyes - and that is due to their behaviour, not their identity.

They are not welcome here? From what I know and from what you said they already lived there. And let me get this streight, every single one of them is a terrorist, right?

Something like 27% of British Muslims think that the London Underground suicide bombers are martyrs, which is pretty ****ed up to say the least.

Want to show me a link to that poll?

Just as a little "heads up" for you also, we have the most militant, least integrated Muslim population in the Western world. Significantly worse than in your neck of the woods, although such trends can still be observed over there.

Significantly worse then here? Wow no way? Because every muslim I met here, and I met quite a few, have been nothing but great people. Politically they didn't like Israel but then again a lot of people that have seen what Israel has done over the past 30 years don't.

I'm not a racist so don't even try to pull that one over on me. I went clubbing with friends the other night and I was the only white guy in the entire club.

Relax buddy, nobody said you were racist. But I do find that statement amusing. Hey, I'm not racist, I know people that aren't white. Thanks for making that absolutely clear, reminds me of Steven Colbert's black friend.

I conjured up no such scenarios concerning my family and Israeli bombs.
Furthermore, how is the fact that war destroys families and brings misery relevant to anything? I'm sure the Germans civilians were pretty mad at us for bombing their country in WW2, it doesn't mean shit. War makes things emotionally personal where logically they are not. The feelings of an anguished civilian are completely irrelevant to who was in the right.

I'm pretty sure I asked you what you would do if your family died from an Israeli bomb. I think I did that here:

http://halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2280885&postcount=126

and you responded with:

Right, so if some arsehole destroys my entire neighbourhood - as an unfortunate side-effect of a legitimate but perhaps OTT operation, that gives me the right to slaughter his young family in revenge. Step AWAY from the crack pipe.

You seem to be saying that if an Israeli bomb kills your family who had nothing to do with an terrorist organization and Israel isn't punished for it in any way you wouldn't do a damn thing to retaliate. Is that right or wrong?

Islam isn't just a religion, it's a culture, a legal system, a society in its own right and a total all-encompassing way of life. This is the fundamental difference between Islam and, say, Christianity. It has more in common with a crazy cult than a mainstream religion.
Evidently if they suicide bombed our capital (nearly killing my best friend incidentally) in the name of Islam against the West, they don't belong here. How you could suggest they do is beyond me.

This game is fun. Point me to where I suggested this.

I would love to see those ****ers punished. But guess what, they blew themselves up in the process so there isn't shit you can do to them. That's how ****ing pissed off they were at you, they were actually willing to kill themselves to kill a bunch of you. What baffles me is how you completely fail to see where they get that kind of hate from. Its as if you actually believe somebody could choose to die like that for absolutely no good reason.

No, I see it quite clearly but I fail to see how its relevant to the discussion at hand. It is of comparatively minute concern to me.

Its perfectly relevant because it exposes your hypocracy. In your eyes one crazy religion is a lot more moral than another crazy religion. They are both evil, why you seem to think one shouldn't concern us as much as the other is what baffles me. You are saying they aren't killing anyone now, what, bombing abortion clinics isn't killing people? Killing gay people isn't killing people?

They aren't as violant now because they are getting everything they want, take that away from them and and a small percentage of them will turn just as bat shit crazy as those small percentage of pissed off muslims, just like these christians were not only for a few years back but for the past 1000 years or so.

No, I didn't say that, either. I said that people in Muslim countries are poor because Islamic society is a useless piece of shit, unable to make even moderately adequate use of the vast resources at its disposal. A view that you are agreeing with by virtue of your comments below.

Any civilization run by religion is a piece of shit. It doesn't mean you can go in there with your tanks and your bombs and open their eyes to how wonderful your shitty system is.

Frankly, I don't care if they live on $1 a day. I'm past caring. As long as they live on $1 a day over there and not over here then problem solved.

And its that type of talk along will all the violance toward them that will make them follow you to your home. I wish they could leave people like me out of it, but because of you arrogance you are dragging me and my family in the middle of all this shit. Thanks.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Source for what?

Source for the people being tortured by the Israeli government. Slinging this kind of mud around, and you owe people a link goodsir.

 

[No Limit]

Source for the people being tortured by the Israeli government. Slinging this kind of mud around, and you owe people a link goodsir.

There are probably cases of Israel doing this, I really don't know. This is why I didn't say Israel, I said the US which backs Israel. But here is a 2 second google search you could have done yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

 

[CptStern]

There are probably cases of Israel doing this, I really don't know. This is why I didn't say Israel, I said the US which backs Israel. But here is a 2 second google search you could have done yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/637293.stm

meh it's not like Kerberos wouldnt justify torture in the same way he justifies terrorism ..if the people doing it are jewish then it's not torture/terrorism but rather "informal information gathering followed by dinner and a movie"/"gently persuading the occupying power to play nice and leave israel to the jews by using bombs designed not to kill but rather to shower their targets with brightly coloured flowers in the hopes that sooner or later they'll find it annoying and return to gray oppressive brit-land"

 

[No Limit]

Yeah, he seemed really outraged that I didn't provide a source for such atrocities. Now that we have a source his next post (if there is a next post) will be about justifying that torture. Stupidity of these people.