Iraq, the US & other stuff too

[ComradeBadger]

Right, listen here all you people who are pointlessly flamings without discussing American politics and so forth..... I have some opinions and would like to discuss them with you people

Firstly: Communism, now I'm a bit of a Marxist, as some of you may know from previous posts of mine. However Communism is not 'a good idea that wouldn't work'... it's a bad idea. For these reasons: It works on the principle that labour is the main source of income, which it was in the 19th Century, but it isn't now, imagination is. It works on the principle of subsidising industries that are failing, in a short-term attempt to keep people happy, yet the government should be pouring money into growing and prospering industries. Also, it takes ideas and tries to fit human nature around these 'brilliant ideas' when in fact, ideas must fit human nature, not the other way round.

Secondly: The UN. A terrible idea, and the most pointless organisation in living history, since the League of Nations. I bet you don't know how many times the UN has stood by while innocent people die... in fact, people have been butchered right outside a UN compound (in Rowanda I think) but the soldiers were foribidden to stop the massacre. It slows things down, and is simply a way for countries to play 'one-upmanship' on each other, by getting UN support, and therefore all their deeds are nice and legal. It was a good idea once... but the lessons have been learned and tossed out of the window. It doesn't stop world wars, it creates fragmented conflicts...

Thirdly: France et all. The French are in fact people who should really be called to account. Do you know how many cases have been brought against France for violating EU law? The figure is close to 500. Oh yeah, and those claiming the Iraq war was illegal... look at France, she has been waging an 'illegal' war in Africa for years...

Finally: Iraq. Those who say Operation Iraqi Freedom wasn't justified should actually think beyond their populist politics. For the first time in decades the Iraqi people no longer face public executions, torture and rape. The secret police are gone, the regime is gone... now these people can chose their own leader, and will enjoy proper democratic freedoms. Oh, and those saying 'It's still not over, people are still dying' should again think. Look at the two countries we rebuilt after the Second World War: Japan and Germany... what? They are economically stable democracies?? Surely not!

Anyway.... I hope I haven't offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do so... and if you reply, please state what you are agreeing with/ disagreeing with, and why

 

[Dedalus]

badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom

wise beyond your years, or have you been drinking?

i'll reply in more detail later on, but for now, i'll just say that i tend to agree with you. what are your views on democracy? does it work? is it working?

 

[Brian Damage]

Agree with everything except your stance on Iraq. Sort of. The Bastard may be gone, but he was ousted by a country controlled by a bigger and more powerful one. Via his stupid puppet. Remove Americas "support", and we'll see how they go...

My opinion.

 

[dawdler]

I would say...

Communism: A very good idea in theory.
UN: A very good idea in theory.
France: A very good idea in theory.
Iraq: A very good idea in theory.

We wouldnt have these problems if F.U.C.K.E.D. (Fundamentalistic Union of Crackpots with Kvasifuturistic dreams of Egomaniac Despotism) where in charge. No problems whatsoever.

 

[Brian Damage]

We need real Jedi.

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by mrBadger
Right, listen here all you people who are pointlessly flamings without discussing American politics and so forth..... I have some opinions and would like to discuss them with you people

Firstly: Communism, now I'm a bit of a Marxist, as some of you may know from previous posts of mine. However Communism is not 'a good idea that wouldn't work'... it's a bad idea. For these reasons: It works on the principle that labour is the main source of income, which it was in the 19th Century, but it isn't now, imagination is. It works on the principle of subsidising industries that are failing, in a short-term attempt to keep people happy, yet the government should be pouring money into growing and prospering industries. Also, it takes ideas and tries to fit human nature around these 'brilliant ideas' when in fact, ideas must fit human nature, not the other way round.

Secondly: The UN. A terrible idea, and the most pointless organisation in living history, since the League of Nations. I bet you don't know how many times the UN has stood by while innocent people die... in fact, people have been butchered right outside a UN compound (in Rowanda I think) but the soldiers were foribidden to stop the massacre. It slows things down, and is simply a way for countries to play 'one-upmanship' on each other, by getting UN support, and therefore all their deeds are nice and legal. It was a good idea once... but the lessons have been learned and tossed out of the window. It doesn't stop world wars, it creates fragmented conflicts...

Thirdly: France et all. The French are in fact people who should really be called to account. Do you know how many cases have been brought against France for violating EU law? The figure is close to 500. Oh yeah, and those claiming the Iraq war was illegal... look at France, she has been waging an 'illegal' war in Africa for years...

Finally: Iraq. Those who say Operation Iraqi Freedom wasn't justified should actually think beyond their populist politics. For the first time in decades the Iraqi people no longer face public executions, torture and rape. The secret police are gone, the regime is gone... now these people can chose their own leader, and will enjoy proper democratic freedoms. Oh, and those saying 'It's still not over, people are still dying' should again think. Look at the two countries we rebuilt after the Second World War: Japan and Germany... what? They are economically stable democracies?? Surely not!

Anyway.... I hope I haven't offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do so... and if you reply, please state what you are agreeing with/ disagreeing with, and why

Didn't I tell you to stop drinking the bong water. I agree.In my opinion we should just get rid of UN.Finally someone believes in the same stuff I do....Maybe were brothers or something.

 

[iamironsam]

There's still something wrong with a supposed "democracy" that lies to it's people in order to gain acceptance for a war.

And why stop at Iraq? Why not be freedom fighters for every oppressed nation in the world? I think we all know the answer to that one.

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by iamironsam
There's still something wrong with a supposed "democracy" that lies to it's people in order to gain acceptance for a war.

And why stop at Iraq? Why not be freedom fighters for every oppressed nation in the world? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Time.You can't turn all the goverments to democracy at one time or one right after another.It takes time and money.

*starts to sing time is on my side*
oooooooo...timeeeeee is on my side.... yes it is!!!

 

[rec]

While I do agree with what your saying, I'm appauled that you can pick on France and Iraq for their flaws, yet remain ignorant to those of the US... Here are some dot points from various sources...

- Only two countries in the world have refused to ratify the Convention on the Rights of a Child human rights treaty... Somalia and the US.

- The Internation Criminal Court is an historic achievment in human rights, the court's aim is to bring to justice prepetrators of crimes against humanity, genocide and war crimes. The court aims to prevent a repeat of some of the greatest crimes and atrocities commited in the 20th century including the Holocaust, the Khmer Rogue genocide in Cambodia, and the Rwanda genocide.
US took unprecedented steps to undermine the new court, including planning to "unsign" the ICC treaty and pressuring other countries to sign bilateral immunity agreements.

- The US stands to this day, the only country to use a nuclear weapon.

- Over half a million children under the age of 5 have died from US imposed economic sanctions on Iraq since the Gulf War. As many as 1.5 millions have died in total thanks to this sanctions.

- As many as 5000 Afghan civilians were killed in the campaign against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban regime.

- 45 million Americans have no health care.

- Americans women are still earning onaverage 30% less than males.

- 35 millions Americans still live in poverty.

- US refuses to hold open trials for 'non-combatants' in camp X-ray, breaking the Geneva Convention.

You can pick and discriminate all you want, every country has its flaws. This is democracy, the best system in the world... disturbing, isn't it.

 

[Tr0n]

You don't hold open trials for military combatents.Since there prisoners of war we can decided when we want to hold trials.Oh and the sanctions on Iraq.... well thats because of Saddam Hussein.Even if we did clear the sanctions, Saddam Hussein would have took the money and food and used it for his military.On the 5000 afghan thing....civilians always die in war***ssia in WW2 lost over a million civilians....Britian WW2 lost over 5000 civilians.It happens in all wars so get over it.

 

[Blair]

Originally posted by rec

- 35 millions Americans still live in poverty.

Ah yes, the rewards of having a republican president.


Their philosophy: "Tax the poor, help the rich" (Because we all know how much the rich suffer in their every day lives.)

 

[rec]

Tr0n, these were non combatants.

And about the sanctions, ok, just say you're right... You've just justified 1 of the 9 points. Keeps going. ;P

 

[ComradeBadger]

Tr0n is right..... they are military combatants, and there have been no cases of international terrorism so far in history, so there are no guidlines for dealing with them.

 

[rec]

I'll say it again, non combatants.

US refuses to hold open trials for 'non-combatants' in camp X-ray, breaking the Geneva Convention.

Regardless, my point is, no country is perfect, not even the United States.

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by rec
Tr0n, these were non combatants.

And about the sanctions, ok, just say you're right... You've just justified 1 of the 9 points. Keeps going. ;P

If there non combants why were they in there the first place.We don't make mistakes like that.And how do you know that there non-combatants????Every single one of them are in there for ether A.)Are in Al'queda(however you spell it) or B.) supported them and if you read my post again I answered 3 of your points I think.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I don't think that the US is perfect, yet the fact is .... everyone ALWAYS picks on the US, and leaves the rest of the world alone as thought they did nothing. Anyway, I sought to re-dress the balence,

 

[Tr0n]

The rest of the points are pretty lame because most countries have the same problems.So I do agree we ain't perfect.But nothing ever is.

 

[rec]

Yes you answered 3 after editing it.

- Are you trying to tell me no non-comatants are ever installed in military camps? Hah, bs to that.

- As for civilians dying in every war, correct.

My point is, for the very last time, don't go thinking the US is high and almighty, every country has its flaws, every system has its flaws, every country, often because of its flawed system, has made big ****ing mistakes.

no country is perfect, not even the United States.

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Tr0n
Time.You can't turn all the goverments to democracy at one time or one right after another.It takes time and money.

*starts to sing time is on my side*
oooooooo...timeeeeee is on my side.... yes it is!!!

You can't honestly believe that the present government of the US honestly cares about the well being of the Iraqi people can you? You would have to be blind not to notice the alterior motives.

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by rec
Yes you answered 3 after editing it.

- Are you trying to tell me no non-comatants are ever installed in military camps? Hah, bs to that.

- As for civilians dying in every war, correct.

My point is, for the very last time, don't go thinking the US is high and almighty, every country has its flaws, every system has its flaws, every country, often because of its flawed system, has made big ****ing mistakes.

I didn't say there has never been non-combtants in military camps.So please re-read my post(s).Also like i said before were is your prof that they are holding non-combantants?

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by iamironsam
You can't honestly believe that the present government of the US honestly cares about the well being of the Iraqi people can you? You would have to be blind not to notice the alterior motives.

If we didn't care why did we liberate them in the first place.Why are we waisting 80 billion dollars of tax payers money on them???Please tell me???

 

[Direwolf]

Originally posted by iamironsam
You can't honestly believe that the present government of the US honestly cares about the well being of the Iraqi people can you? You would have to be blind not to notice the alterior motives.

Can't they be both? Its never as simple as it looks.

 

[rec]

Where's your proof that they aren't/haven't held non-combatants?

Originally posted by Tr0n
The rest of the points are pretty lame because most countries have the same problems.So I do agree we ain't perfect.But nothing ever is.

Exactly. So why do people insist on ranting about how terrible the French and Iraqi governments are? Why rant about how flawed the UN and communism are?

Welcome to the real world, nothing is perfect, and while many of us look down on other lifestyles and governments, it takes a lot of guts to look up and realise ours aren't all that much better in a lot of respects.

I'm done posting in this thread, you've either neglected my point, or understand it but insist on arguing anyway.

no country is perfect, not even the United States.

 

[Dedalus]

i don't get why people have to argue and bicker about something that could be cleared up so easily. grow up and stop being so reactive. evolve your thinking.

how would we go about creating a new form of government? merging democracy and communism? i don't know, make some suggestions on how it could be better.

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by rec
Where's your proof that they aren't/haven't held non-combatants?

Damn't I knew that was coming.I do that with my friends all the time."Hey Justin how don't you know theres a god"...Me "how do you know there is"....

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by rec
Where's your proof that they aren't/haven't held non-combatants?



Exactly. So why do people insist on ranting about how terrible the French and Iraqi governments are? Why rant about how flawed the UN and communism are?

Welcome to the real world, nothing is perfect, and while many of us look down on other lifestyles and governments, it takes a lot of guts to look up and realise ours aren't all that much better in a lot of respects.

I'm done posting in this thread, you've either neglected my point, or understand it but insist on arguing anyway.

Real world???....I thought this was the matrix....

 

[king John I]

whoa, heavy politics here!

meh, all things are good idea's in theory....

like the internet.

 

[Dhoco X]

I don't gonna say nothing... the true in mass can cause a permanent banishment to me or a emotional trauma on you americans.

But please, leave the iraq alone.

I'm not defending nobody... it's just make me sick read these texts...

 

[king John I]

america is too patrotic (no offense)

hehe, my thread got deleted, i thought i'd get banned, oh well.

 

[Korgoth]

We need to see what supertrooper thiniks about all this ,

Hey those crazy Brits went with us to Iraq, lets talk about them for awhile while were at it

 

[iamironsam]

Originally posted by Tr0n
If we didn't care why did we liberate them in the first place.Why are we waisting 80 billion dollars of tax payers money on them???Please tell me???

Originally posted by Direwolf
Can't they be both? Its never as simple as it looks.

If the Bush administration was so legitimately concerned with human rights and quality of life, why wouldn't it deal with all of it's domestic issues first?

 

[ComradeBadger]

Sorry you feel that way rec... It's just I thought I would redress the balence... and anyway... I know no country is perfect ... don't worry..

Oh, and I think I have a few ideas on how to run a country, however, what do I know

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by mrBadger
Right, listen here all you people who are pointlessly flamings without discussing American politics and so forth..... I have some opinions and would like to discuss them with you people

Firstly: Communism, now I'm a bit of a Marxist, as some of you may know from previous posts of mine. However Communism is not 'a good idea that wouldn't work'... it's a bad idea. For these reasons: It works on the principle that labour is the main source of income, which it was in the 19th Century, but it isn't now, imagination is. It works on the principle of subsidising industries that are failing, in a short-term attempt to keep people happy, yet the government should be pouring money into growing and prospering industries. Also, it takes ideas and tries to fit human nature around these 'brilliant ideas' when in fact, ideas must fit human nature, not the other way round.

Secondly: The UN. A terrible idea, and the most pointless organisation in living history, since the League of Nations. I bet you don't know how many times the UN has stood by while innocent people die... in fact, people have been butchered right outside a UN compound (in Rowanda I think) but the soldiers were foribidden to stop the massacre. It slows things down, and is simply a way for countries to play 'one-upmanship' on each other, by getting UN support, and therefore all their deeds are nice and legal. It was a good idea once... but the lessons have been learned and tossed out of the window. It doesn't stop world wars, it creates fragmented conflicts...

Thirdly: France et all. The French are in fact people who should really be called to account. Do you know how many cases have been brought against France for violating EU law? The figure is close to 500. Oh yeah, and those claiming the Iraq war was illegal... look at France, she has been waging an 'illegal' war in Africa for years...

Finally: Iraq. Those who say Operation Iraqi Freedom wasn't justified should actually think beyond their populist politics. For the first time in decades the Iraqi people no longer face public executions, torture and rape. The secret police are gone, the regime is gone... now these people can chose their own leader, and will enjoy proper democratic freedoms. Oh, and those saying 'It's still not over, people are still dying' should again think. Look at the two countries we rebuilt after the Second World War: Japan and Germany... what? They are economically stable democracies?? Surely not!

Anyway.... I hope I haven't offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do so... and if you reply, please state what you are agreeing with/ disagreeing with, and why

Thanks, Badger. This is way better than "America sucks."
It's also refreshing to see a 'somewhat' Marxist denouncing Communism, or anyone for that matter. And for those of you who don't know, the French Govt. aided Hitler's Genocide. They struck up a bargain to not be attacked, if they sent all the Jews Hitler wanted. But, it turns out they were striking up a deal with the Devil...and the Devil never keeps his end of the deal. Of course, not all of the French are bad. I have some friends that are French, and they're some of the bravest men I know. I jsut find their government a bit on the "Forget about the rest of the world," side.
I also agree with your comments on the UN. For years people in under-developed parts of South America have been getting brutally slaughtered by guerilla raiders. When approached by these victims, the UN turned it's head. Only a few nations set up embargoes - US, Britain, etc...but not France.
Thanks for addressing this issue, Badger. I've tried to only resort to this subject in the event of an "America sucks, Bush is Hitler!" comment.

BTW: The UN is currently proposing a ''One World Religion." Not to mention how they've been discussing "One World Govt.," and a "One World Leader." - Sound a little bit like the man below wanted?

EDIT:You're right, rec. No country is perfect, but I think this subject needed to be addressed. Because everytime I turn around, someones bad-mouthing mine. I've never said anything negative about other countrys, not even in retaliation. I think Badger did a good thing, today.

 

[Fat Tony!]

Nice start but there is no way this wont turn into a flame war, not with me around anyway

 

[Fat Tony!]

o yea i forgot content lol, communism would work in 3rd world countries in fact very well. whenever the US do something wrong the damage is greatly amplified by the fact the world rests on its shoulders.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Tony, communism would not work in the 3rd world.... it just wouldn't.. it would mean that the countries would stagnate, look at the CCCP.

Anyway.. I'm suprised that people agree with me

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by iamironsam
If the Bush administration was so legitimately concerned with human rights and quality of life, why wouldn't it deal with all of it's domestic issues first?

Because there is bigger problems out there than here.Whats worse....some terrorist with a nuke thats pissed off at america or some guy here in america having to pay a couple more dollars on tax???

 

[Tr0n]

Originally posted by mrBadger
Tony, communism would not work in the 3rd world.... it just wouldn't.. it would mean that the countries would stagnate, look at the CCCP.

Anyway.. I'm suprised that people agree with me

Your my butt buddy.....I have to agree with you or I won't get any tonight.

 

[Mitoboy]

OK Communism is a great idea in theory, problem is that you go thought a dicatatorship to get there.

Also, the USA's economy is a mixture of Democratic and Communism (Welfare for example).

Oh Rec, I know you will not post in this anymore but... About the whole US only to use nukes point. Yes, you are right. But Japan was given a warning to surrender or face dire consiqunces (my words), twice (one before the first bomb and after). Also, some other reasons why we did it, and without warning.

- Pearl Harbor ring a bell, no warning there and all we did was cut them from our exports.
- Too many people have already died.
- The war in Europe ended, we did not want to drag the war on.
- Everyone in Europe would be sent to battle Japan, even British troops.
- There was the possiblity that Japan would move POWs to the targets.

But if anyone nows any of these are not true, please enlighten me. I like to learn about wat happened during WWII.

I do have to agree with you mrBadger. Cute little badger... *pet*
* Mitoboy is mauled by mrBadger
GET IT OFF ME!! GET IT OFF! AHHHHH!!! MY NOSE!!! GET OFF ME!!! AHHuhuh...
* Mitoboy goes unconscious

 

[Fender357]

Originally posted by Tr0n
If we didn't care why did we liberate them in the first place.Why are we waisting 80 billion dollars of tax payers money on them???Please tell me???

Because there is alot of money to be made in Iraq. Once the US had control they were auctioning off the rights to sell things in Iraq. I can't remember all the exact details, but I know the first corparation to get selling rights in Iraq was some oil company that Dick Chaney (sp?) use to be the CEO of. Kinda fishy.