Iraq - What would you do right now?

[Cooper]

We have a lot of "the world/US sucks" people on the forum who are very good at pointing out the problems at hand but seem to rather lackluster on the solutions. Lets prove that we can do more then just complain all day, many claim that they are smarter then most world leaders today. Well, here is your chance to prove it.

Lets pretend that you have suddenly been elected President of the US. Now, I don't care if you would have invaded Iraq or not, and I personally don't care if you would ever be President of the US. Thats irrelevant to my query. What I want to know is what you would do right now with the situation in Iraq if you were in charge and also what you think the consequences of your actions would be, think security, reputation, economy, etc; for the nation you are leading.

This is going to require some roleplaying on your part, I know some of you could care less about the security of the US, but I want everyone to think in terms of being this nations leader. I would hope as the leader you would genuinely care about your people.

Who knows, maybe some good ideas may come out of this?

 

[dantewilliams]

Stay, defend, rebuild, leave when the jobs done. its the only moral and logical awnser. Sure people will die, but people will die if we leave to soon.

 

[15357]

Put in more troops.

 

[baxter]

Go to the UN say "I'm really sorry but the last idiot that held this position dragged us into an illegal war, would you please help me out".

Remove all US troops from Iraq in a scaled and carefully managed withdrawal, and replace with UN peace keepers.
Peace keepers from Germany, France, Russia, China, anywhere but The US.

Removal of US soldiers would hopefully remove the high risk targets and appeal to the voters back home.

 

[Adabiviak]

I'll need some toothbrushes, kleenex, and C4. No prob!

 

[MjM]

Come clean and admit, we're screwed and go to the UN for a truely international force, that is impartial of US Middle Eastern politics (such an entity exists that would be willing?) to lay down the law. Get the oil money and all the resources flowing in a transparent contestable system, rather than going to huge companies ... that are largely unaccountable to anyone.

I dunno. The UN is impotent, but the US seems rather clueless.

All we can hope is that America does actually stay the course, and come next election someone with a clue takes charge and gets things moving a little quicker & smarter.

 

[Solaris]

Withdraw all forces Immediatly.

Then get some countries that Iraqis like, Irealand for example might do pretty well, maybe some other places would be willing to lend a hand, but these forces would only enter if the Iraqi people wanted them too, and if they did they would act less agressively and promote democracy and help rebuild Iraq, ie build schools hospitals ect.

Thats what I want to happen.

 

[CptStern]

We have a lot of "the world/US sucks" people on the forum who are very good at pointing out the problems at hand but seem to rather lackluster on the solutions. Lets prove that we can do more then just complain all day, many claim that they are smarter then most world leaders today. Well, here is your chance to prove it.

Lets pretend that you have suddenly been elected President of the US. Now, I don't care if you would have invaded Iraq or not, and I personally don't care if you would ever be President of the US. Thats irrelevant to my query. What I want to know is what you would do right now with the situation in Iraq if you were in charge and also what you think the consequences of your actions would be, think security, reputation, economy, etc; for the nation you are leading.

This is going to require some roleplaying on your part, I know some of you could care less about the security of the US, but I want everyone to think in terms of being this nations leader. I would hope as the leader you would genuinely care about your people.

Who knows, maybe some good ideas may come out of this?

ffs what is this apologist crap? as if it is at all feasible that we'd have any chance of fixing somebody elses mistake, especially one built of falsehoods ..you couldnt win the hearts and minds of iraqis not matter what you do

YOU broke it YOU fix it simple as that


what SHOULD happen but wont is the US should pull out completely and unconditionally to be replaced with an international peace keeping force that doesnt have it's own interests in the forefront ...never happen as the US has too much at stake in iraq and would give up their prized jewel

 

[dantewilliams]

ffs what is this apologist crap? as if it is at all feasible that we'd have any chance of fixing somebody elses mistake, especially one built of falsehoods ..you couldnt win the hearts and minds of iraqis not matter what you do

YOU broke it YOU fix it simple as that


what SHOULD happen but wont is the US should pull out completely and unconditionally to be replaced with an international peace keeping force that doesnt have it's own interests in the forefront ...never happen as the US has too much at stake in iraq and would give up their prized jewel

we have seen that international peace keeping forces fail.

 

[CptStern]

usually because certain members wont commit troops

 

[Mr Stabby]

Iraq is already screwed, it's too late for any western nation to sort it out. Pull out, and there will be civil war, stay and have 24/7 terrorism.

A peace keeping force, of muslim countries like Pakistan and Eygpt.

 

[dream431ca]

The first thing..and the most important thing to do is to TELL THE TRUTH!! No more lies or deceit. You want other people to help, tell them what is really going on.

Secondly, the only thing that will make Iraq a civil country is to get the whole world in on it. That's impossible right now. So you have to stay there and not let the whole situation get out of control. Your stuck in Iraq and there is no quick pull out. Anyway, a quick pull out would be the wrong thing to do.


The third thing to do is to create a good Iraqi police force. You eventually want to leave Iraq, but not until it is well sustained. But lets face it, Iraq will not become a civil country for many, many years. It will take a lot of time to make a good police force to protect Iraq.

Eventually 2 things will happen:

1) Iraq becomes a civil country (with minor terrorism, because you will never get rid of terrorism until the mindest of the terrorist organizations is changed) and the Iraqi people live relatively good lives with not too much to worry about.

2) The second thing that could happen is the Iraqi people snap and they go berserk driving out everyone (including US forces) and Iraq becomes a much worse country than it ever was. Then starts WWIII.

So...your stuck in Iraq and you will have to clean up the mess and fix the whole country before you leave..which will take much longer than 5 years. I estimate you will not leave Iraq for at least 20 years. It takes a long time to change a country's entire goverment system...not to mention the ideology of Iraqis will change along with it.

IMO, more attention should be on Afganistan, because that's where the problem originated in the first place.

 

[Sainku]

UN peace keeping forces? I thought this was a plan to help Iraq. We should stay and finish what we start, repair and reuild, ensure the government and the country in general is stable, and leave.

usually because certain members wont commit troops

Yeah. That and the fact that having an incompetent unorganized military force along with tons of sexual abuse issues doesn't seem to work very well as a peace keeping tactic

 

[Solaris]

UN peace keeping forces? I thought this was a plan to help Iraq. We should stay and finish what we start, repair and reuild, ensure the government and the country in general is stable, and leave.



Yeah. That and the fact that having an incompetent unorganized military force along with tons of sexual abuse issues doesn't seem to work very well as a peace keeping tactic

Oh and youre death squads are really helping.

 

[CptStern]

UN peace keeping forces? I thought this was a plan to help Iraq. We should stay and finish what we start, repair and reuild, ensure the government and the country in general is stable, and leave.



Yeah. That and the fact that having an incompetent unorganized military force along with tons of sexual abuse issues doesn't seem to work very well as a peace keeping tactic

the UN has no troops ..the troops come from member states

 

[K e r b e r o s]

ffs what is this apologist crap? as if it is at all feasible that we'd have any chance of fixing somebody elses mistake, especially one built of falsehoods ..you couldnt win the hearts and minds of iraqis not matter what you do

YOU broke it YOU fix it simple as that

For someone whose so passionate for Iraqs people, you sure tuck-tail and run when responsibility knocks.

 

[CptStern]

For someone whose so passionate for Iraqs people, you sure tuck-tail and run when responsibility knocks.

ha that's rich coming from someone who supported the war ..where were you when the "facts" started falling apart like a house of cards? and it's YOUR responsibility, YOU ****ed it up you fix it

 

[dream431ca]

Let me add something to the thread that is not particularly on topic but it's relatively the same thing.

The only way (right this minute) that you can stop people from starting wars, or killing each other is the complete collapse of the freedom and independance of people and removing their individual rights..basically treat people like cattle. Therefore, you control people to such an extent that they have no right to make any decision except for natural things like the bathroom. Everyone on the planet will be followed, photographed, and completely controlled so they can't do anything but what they are told.

I know this sounds completely against everything human rights stand for, and it is, but it is they only way I see to get people to not do these things any longer. This would also have to be a global effort.

Therefore, this idea will not work because I don't want it, you don't want it, and it's impossible to do.

Now what about Iraq?? Should we implement this idea into Iraq?? NO!! It's not what you or I want...but just remember, the day may come, if efforts do not decide a postitve outcome.

 

[Direwolf]

I think theres a few points that are the most important (and that others have mentioned):

Trying to dispel as much of the BS that has come to surround the war. Come as clean as possible (bad grounds for the war and mishandling of prisoners etc), and make an appeal to both the international community and the Iraqi people. Many of the "insurgents" in Iraq are Iraqis that have been convinced we're there to stay. Convincing them how much we want out would go a long way towards peace, even if it is difficult.

Stay. Do not pull out due to political pressure before it is time. While this may cause resentment, leaving too quickly would likely have even worse consequences at this point. People have died to get to where we've gotten for better or for worse, and more people will die in the future. Its our responsibility to take the course of action that minimizes these deaths.

And Stern, I'm frankly surprised. This is about as constructive and political discussion gets around here. I thought you'd be all for it.

 

[Solaris]

The USA is raping Iraq.
Its time to withdraw, you can't stay till youve finished, you have to get out now.

 

[CptStern]

not quite understanding here ...you meanyou thought I'd support coming up with solutions? but isnt that just defering blame? you're ignoring the symptoms that led to the disease ..unforetunately we can speculate all we want but the US isnt going to hand over iraq to anybody so you're stuck there till the public has decided enough soldiers have died ..leaving iraq in a further state of chaos ...this is like trying to fix a leak on the titanic with a band-aid

the US isnt pulling out ever ..they've already stated they'll maintain a presence in iraq indefinately

 

[dantewilliams]

usually because certain members wont commit troops

stern why would any forces commit to iraq? when they wont already.

 

[dantewilliams]

The USA is raping Iraq.
Its time to withdraw, you can't stay till youve finished, you have to get out now.

you are an idiot

 

[Direwolf]

Its just a hypothetical though. Interesting as a mental exercise if not a political one. Its not going to solve anything or change policy, but its something worth thinking about.

And it would seem that many people disagree on what "indefinite presence" means. While its kinda comparing apples to oranges, the US still has a presence in Germany, but no one thinks of them as being under the US boot heel. But this is digression and best saved for another thread.

 

[dantewilliams]

Its just a hypothetical though. Interesting as a mental exercise if not a political one. Its not going to solve anything or change policy, but its something worth thinking about.

And it would seem that many people disagree on what "indefinite presence" means. While its kinda comparing apples to oranges, the US still has a presence in Germany, but no one thinks of them as being under the US boot heel. But this is digression and best saved for another thread.

Our presence in germany is much different. There we are just using bases granted to us by the german nation. In iraq we are putting our selves there in bases we want and where we want them. However the iraqi government still wants us there. The major difference is the fact that we are doing the majority of security in Iraq, and in germany we are doing 0 security. Also we had a presence in germany and greater europe during the cold war, and we really havent dismantled our bases.

 

[Sainku]

The USA is raping Iraq.
Its time to withdraw, you can't stay till youve finished, you have to get out now.

I dont think your solution was very well thought out...

you meanyou thought I'd support coming up with solutions?but isnt that just defering blame? you're ignoring the symptoms that led to the disease

we can speculate all we want but the US isnt going to hand over iraq to anybody

It doesn't matter if you support it or not, that is the point of the thread. No one here is deferring blame or ignoring symptoms, its impossible to ignore something you fill every single thread with. This was supposed a departure from the generic sterns iraq failure highligts thread as was made obvious by the first sentence of the topic starters post (Of course, you did tell me a long time ago that is long as your here every thread will be a generic sterns iraqi failure highlights thread or something along those lines... ). It was created for speculation and I'm sure the people here are well aware that none of their speculation is going to lead to the us handing over iraq to anyone. It was created for people to post the solutions for current problems in iraq they would implement if they were president and the discussion of those solutions and nothing more. If you dont like it, don't participate. There is certianly no lack of threads that will better fit your views.

 

[Direwolf]

Our presence in germany is much different. There we are just using bases granted to us by the german nation. In iraq we are putting our selves there in bases we want and where we want them. However the iraqi government still wants us there. The major difference is the fact that we are doing the majority of security in Iraq, and in germany we are doing 0 security. Also we had a presence in germany and greater europe during the cold war, and we really havent dismantled our bases.

Thus my "apples and oranges" qualifier. Germany is indeed a much different situation, but its just an example of how situations not exactly matching words.

 

[CptStern]

I dont think your solution was very well thought out...





It doesn't matter if you support it or not, that is the point of the thread. No one here is deferring blame or ignoring symptoms, its impossible to ignore something you fill every single thread with. This was supposed a departure from the generic sterns iraq failure highligts thread as was made obvious by the first sentence of the topic starters post (Of course, you did tell me a long time ago that is long as your here every thread will be a generic sterns iraqi failure highlights thread or something along those lines... ). It was created for speculation and I'm sure the people here are well aware that none of their speculation is going to lead to the us handing over iraq to anyone. It was created for people to post the solutions for current problems in iraq they would implement if they were president and the discussion of those solutions and nothing more. If you dont like it, don't participate. There is certianly no lack of threads that will better fit your views.

be that as it may the thread starter made it abundantly clear he was fed up with crticism of the US about iraq and that he wanted to disuade the usually "US ****ed up" threads by asking people (like me) what they would do in the US' shoes ...but that's just an apologist stance because we're ignoring the symptoms that led to this in the first place. You cant just drop into a situation like this and say "well if the US used a multi-national force to bolster it's strength etc it'll lead to peace but that couldnt be further from the truth as NO amount of western intervention will "fix" iraq ..it's like asking a murderer to bring his victem back to life

and I think I should be the one to decide what threads I involve myself in, not you or anybody else


I can say with 100% surety that you will visit iraq again in a decades time or more when whatever despot you prop up this time around will start to feel a little confined in his leash ...mark my words, more boys will die in iraq in generations to come and whatever the excuse nothing will have changed

 

[French Ninja]

Oh and youre death squads are really helping.

Please stop now. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[ComradeBadger]

not quite understanding here ...you meanyou thought I'd support coming up with solutions? but isnt that just defering blame? you're ignoring the symptoms that led to the disease ..unforetunately we can speculate all we want but the US isnt going to hand over iraq to anybody so you're stuck there till the public has decided enough soldiers have died ..leaving iraq in a further state of chaos ...this is like trying to fix a leak on the titanic with a band-aid

the US isnt pulling out ever ..they've already stated they'll maintain a presence in iraq indefinately

No, it's not deferring blame at all. It's thinking constructively. Blame doesn't come into it, neither does apologist politics.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apologist

No-one is arguing "in defense or justification of something"

To continue your arguement by analogy: there is little point in considering the symptoms now, surely the more important action to cure the disease? Worry about the symptoms later, when the chance of the disease reappearing is an important consideration.

 

[Top Secret]

and I think I should be the one to decide what threads I involve myself in, not you or anybody else

That is ridiculously hypocritical.

 

[CptStern]

That is ridiculously hypocritical.

huh? why ...have I said in the past that you should choose which threads I'm involved in and now I'm flipflopping!?! oh my stars and garters I just cant get this freewill thingy straight ...so wait, so do I listen to you or to myself? ..oh these darn decisions

 

[CptStern]

No, it's not deferring blame at all. It's thinking constructively. Blame doesn't come into it, neither does apologist politics.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apologist

No-one is arguing "in defense or justification of something"

To continue your arguement by analogy: there is little point in considering the symptoms now, surely the more important action to cure the disease? Worry about the symptoms later, when the chance of the disease reappearing is an important consideration.

you're missing my point. If the US hadnt set down this road 40 years ago none of this would have happened ..the real proof of this will come in a few years when once again the american spin machine is set in motion again and more kids (your age btw) are sent to a foreign battlefield to die in a war they barely understand ..it happened with vietnam, it happened with desert storm, desert shield and it'll happen again when the US moves on to it's next target ...nothing will change ..despite having the wool pulled over their eyes those same people will forget everything and support their administration no matter the cost. This perpetual cycle is what is behind some of the bloodiest coups, facist regimes and murderous despots of the last 50 years ..and nothing seems to change from one generation to the next

 

[satch919]

Stern, unfortunately the reasons why nothing changes is because the people of this country have been conditioned to focus on their Big Mac's, large trucks, and size of their genitalia. Corporatism has taken over and education is suffering. A less informed population is easier to control.

 

[CptStern]

I agree ..the aquisition of material wealth is the prefect distraction

 

[Teh Pwned]

ha that's rich coming from someone who supported the war ..where were you when the "facts" started falling apart like a house of cards? and it's YOUR responsibility, YOU ****ed it up you fix it

I believe it was an incompetant France that wanted revenge on Germany after world war I, instead of wanting to help it, leading to the rise of Hitler and the Second World War.

Should we all learn from history, or just the US?

 

[ComradeBadger]

you're missing my point. If the US hadnt set down this road 40 years ago none of this would have happened ..the real proof of this will come in a few years when once again the american spin machine is set in motion again and more kids (your age btw) are sent to a foreign battlefield to die in a war they barely understand ..it happened with vietnam, it happened with desert storm, desert shield and it'll happen again when the US moves on to it's next target ...nothing will change ..despite having the wool pulled over their eyes those same people will forget everything and support their administration no matter the cost. This perpetual cycle is what is behind some of the bloodiest coups, facist regimes and murderous despots of the last 50 years ..and nothing seems to change from one generation to the next

I'm afraid you're missing the point of this thread. We're not talking about the road to war. We're talking about solutions to the problem state that Iraq is in. Constructive political debate. Please don't de-rail this thread.

 

[Raziaar]

you're missing my point. If the US hadnt set down this road 40 years ago none of this would have happened ..the real proof of this will come in a few years when once again the american spin machine is set in motion again and more kids (your age btw) are sent to a foreign battlefield to die in a war they barely understand ..it happened with vietnam, it happened with desert storm, desert shield and it'll happen again when the US moves on to it's next target ...nothing will change ..despite having the wool pulled over their eyes those same people will forget everything and support their administration no matter the cost. This perpetual cycle is what is behind some of the bloodiest coups, facist regimes and murderous despots of the last 50 years ..and nothing seems to change from one generation to the next

Umm... desert shield/desert storm was a very successful operation that had great support from the american people to push Saddam out of Kuwait. If you don't remember... Saddam was the one who invaded Kuwait.

Your own country, canada... was a big participant in the war efforts. And not even a single canadian died during it. America also lost very few, and if you'll note... the losses expected were in the tens of thousands.


So if you ask me... I don't think the gulf war was one of those wars where the people and soldiers were wondering, "What the hell are we in this for?" There was a concise, straightforward goal, and it was accomplished with great results and few casualties from the coalition forces involved.

Its impossible to really compare the gulf war to the iraq war, or vietnam. Entirely different.

 

[CptStern]

Umm... desert shield/desert storm was a very successful operation

depends on your POV

...that had great support from the american people to push Saddam out of Kuwait. If you don't remember... Saddam was the one who invaded Kuwait.

no real surprise there ...the american public is putty in the hands of military industrial complex and their extremely successful PR machine

...Your own country, canada... was a big participant in the war efforts. And not even a single canadian died during it. America also lost very few, and if you'll note... the losses expected were in the tens of thousands.

147 americans lost their lives in desert storm 1/4 of those due to friendly fire. Upwards of 100,000 iraqi military deaths and another 20-30,000 civilians deaths ..it wasnt a war it was wholesale slaughter

...So if you ask me... I don't think the gulf war was one of those wars where the people and soldiers were wondering, "What the hell are we in this for?" There was a concise, straightforward goal, and it was accomplished with great results and few casualties from the coalition forces involved.

see above

...Its impossible to really compare the gulf war to the iraq war, or vietnam. Entirely different.

yes it's a valid comparison, the goal was the same (oust saddam) only this time they were successful ...9/11 ensured that, fiery rhetoric became popular:

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

George Bush February 8, 2003

 

[CptStern]

I'm afraid you're missing the point of this thread. We're not talking about the road to war. We're talking about solutions to the problem state that Iraq is in. Constructive political debate. Please don't de-rail this thread.

the solutions are a moot point because this is just a pattern in a repeating series of events that continally play out only to come full circle to this same point. Sooner or later the future US backed Iraqi government will tire of it's leash and will bite back ..which will once again lead to some sort of justification in removing them from power ..it's how saddam came into power in the first place ..as well as "Papa Doc" Duvalier, General Suharto, Mobutu Sese Seko, Lon Nol, Hugo Banzer, Augusto Pinochet, Jonas Savimbi, Anastasios Samoza, Manuel Noriega etc etc etc