Is this a case of ideology going too far?

[kirovman]

Well, I'm sure he'll either goto the interview in:

a) blue overalls or
b) a suit with top-hat and cane

 

[kirovman]

edit: double post

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Mr. Peanut scares the shit out of me.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[repiV]

Well, I'm sure he'll either goto the interview in:

a) blue overalls or
b) a suit with top-hat and cane

"Oh I do say old boy, your organisation is most exquisite."
"Dude, what have you been smoking?"
"I am a true capitalist, old chap. The upper-class nature of my attire and inimitable method of spoken communication prove that."
"You're an idiot."
"Capitalists are idiots, my good sir. I am simply playing the part. You have to hire me now, obviously."

 

[Flyingdebris]

the reason i love capitalism is because within it

-If you are driven, and if you have talent, you can rise above those who are lazy or unimaginative.

-People are encouraged to be independant and not wholly reliant upon the government's tits for sustenance.

-Science and industry prosper and advance.

-Not everything is regulated by the heavy hand of government officials.

-There's incentive to be learned and qualified

Sure there's downsides to capitalism, someone invariably is always going to make more money than you. There will be some people that don't deserve a penny with millions o dollars at their disposal. And the truly lazy or inept end up on the streets. (although i wouldn't necessarily call that a bad thing, others would)

The reason i see communism as a danger is because it preys on people's naturally lofty ideals to want to have everyone happy, provided for, and completely equal. Except that in doing that you've taken all the power from people who actually know what they are doing. You take away almost all the incentive to improve themselves and their surroundings. And you give the state all the power over everything. "The people" in regards to communism is the biggest misnomer i've ever heard. As all the decisions are invariably handled by a select few who can make arbitrary decisions without anyone's say. And since you spread the wealth and property among everyone, all you've suceeded in doing is making everything extremely mediocre. The ideals of communsim crush a whole lot more souls underfoot than capitalism, all because of how nice they seem.

 

[15357]

Numbers, I share your hatred of thoose in the North. These people are not communists, just as becuase they call themselves the 'peoples democratic peoples republic of korea' does not make them democratic.

Communism is not about centralised power at the top. I don't want to disgus communism as a theory, but I would like for you to accept that you do not hate communism, you just disagree with it.

North Korea is not capitalist, it's a state capitalist autocratic dictatorship, in it the workers have no say. If you still hold that the soviet union is communist, we have a dissagreement that is purely semantic.

Perhaps. I see it as a communist country that failed. Just like the others.

However, the thing is, everyone loves Kim Jong Il. State reeducation does that. So, I could argue that NK is a communist country that has the support of the workers.

Holy crap, that's well thought out.

-Angry Lawyer

Why, thank you.

 

[Nemesis6]

Mhm. Mhm, mhm, mhm!

The ironic thing is that the very thing that communism strides for is the same thing that will inevitably bring it crashing down and send the country in which it was tried towards a slow, painful process of revitalization; Human dignity.

As far as I'm concerned, communism, Marxism, Leninism, whatever you wanna call it, it doesn't matter... They all equal opression and have no place in this world other than in the minds of naive ideologists believing that humans will blindly submit to tyranny.

 

[Sulkdodds]

/me sidles into thread

No choice where they work? Jesus that sounds like hell, I must be an idiot for saying that. Oh wait, I didn't. Neither did Lenin or Marx or Trostsky. So where did you get this bullshit idea that you have no choice where you work?

But if everybody can choose where they work without having to attain a good job via the current method (hard work, dedication, etc - and, one must concede, sometimes just money, connections or luck) then wouldn't everybody choose the jobs they wanted meaning nobody does the jobs that are necessary?

There's lots of stuff about the economics of plenty, how we might well be able to run this country with everybody doing half the work they currently do, that capitalism creates artificial scarcity - indeed, I'm open to the idea that a controlled economy could ultimately be far more efficient and effective than the capitalist system, especially with increased automation...but then, if you're somehow able to create a state where nobody has to work if they don't want to, is that even a desirable thing?

In any case, as I'm getting slightly fed up with every thread turning into a debate about communism: yes, this is a case of ideology going too far. In fact, it's two seperate cases of ideology going too far:

1. Denial of the facts in order to support ideology. Example of this: debate about Che Guavera's famous "you will only kill a man" or whatever line. Solaris believes Che was brave and noble because he's a commie; Rickety-tendons believes Che said "please! I am worth more alive than dead to you!" because he's an ubercapitalist. Do either of them bother to actually try and find out the truth? Apparently not.

Other examples include white supremacists trying to prove Martin Luther King was anti-semitic or a wife-beater as if that changes anything, or supports their cause, or these TU-Busan people trying to revise history because they're lefties.

That is ideology going too far - or it appears to be. Because of course the phrase "The great general Kim Il-sung fought japanese forces patriotically" shows nothing - not just because it's translated, through Numbers (who is biased), but also because Kim Il-Sung being a great general and fighting japanese forces patriotically does not actually exclude him from being a damn dirty commie and a right bastard.

2. "Of course, they're all under investigation by the KNPA SECPOL division for suspected violations of the national security law." This is another case of ideology going too far. When dissenting voices are silenced by law because they don't agree with the official line, this is a case of ideology going too far. When talking about communism positively is outlawed because the government hates communism, this is a case of ideology going too far.

Now for Numbers:

You may say that it was not true communism, not the ideal version. Let me tell you, that there are no ideal things in this world. Even democracy and freedom we all hold dear to in times of unrest and just normal times is not ideal. Achieving something overtly utopian is impossible, and failure of this killed tens of millions in the Soviet Union, China, and other countries as well.

Agreed, for once.

As for my support of the goverment and a centrallized establishment, I will first point out that most of you don't explain your support for a liberal State but somehow that works, because others agree with it.

Well...that's wrong, really. I'm fairly certain most people in this forum to whom I could pin an ideology (oh, Gick, he's liberal) have elaborated on their arguments many times. I hope that I have. Even if they haven't, though, there are only a certain amount of arguments for certain philosophies: as a case in point, your explanation (the one I'm quoting now) was predictable. Centralised government works, and a working government is good (inference that government being liberal pussy-foots around issues and is thus less effective). We must sacrifice civil rights for security. Capitalism produces competition which is good (does this apply to ideologies as well?). I didn't expect the whole confucianism thing, but looking back I really should have. Also highly predictable were the rhetorical flourishes exhorting us to sacrifice whatever to save the values of whatever and our very whatever.

Now you may say that's easy for me to write, because I can look back at your post. This is true. However, if you said "go on, guess my reasoning behind what I believe!" my guess would probably have been quite close to what you posted.

In order to protect our freedoms and Democracy itself, we must be able to sacrifice something for it. There are no gains, without giving something. Equal exchange is needed for everything in this world. A good goverment, an effective goverment, will be able to destroy and neutralize our enemies, and take what is rightfully ours, with the payment of minor civil liberties.

What must we sacrifice for freedoms and democracy? Why must we sacrifice for freedoms and democracy? If we are sacrificing freedoms, how are we gaining freedoms? Who are 'we'? Are people who disagree with us included in 'we'? Why exactly do we need to pay in liberties for greater security?

I recognise the problem you have with the left in your country (as patronising and...well, you know, the west looking down it's nose-y as that sounds). Everything seems very polarised. You have your mad raving commie loonies, and then you have...er, you. Is there nobody in between? Is THIS why you must sacrifice civil liberties - because with the state things are in, people turn to extreme communism and violence very easily?

I don't get it. What makes you think your own people aren't capable of deciding their own philosophies? I would have thought that if everyone's such a big fan of your Park fella they would be quite capable of not being communists without any help from an overbearing government.

Overbearing government - something I touched on earlier. You criticise oppressive governments for forcing their ideology on people but that's in a sense exactly what you endorce. It's like Mecha said - if you didn't hate communism so much, you could easily be a communist yourself.

As for respect for your elders and loyalty to the fatherland, you've just pretty much admitted you buy into complete irrationality as opposed to actually thinking about things.

I love the fatherland because I should. D:

There's no "respect your elders because their values must have some virtue - they have survived. Change things only if definitely for the better," here. There's just 'respect your elders because they're your elders and they'd rather you respected them than get uppity ideas they don't agree with".

 

[Kangy]

**** dem Commies! YEAH! Shoot them in the mouth!

 

[Tr0n]

Sometimes...wait no...most of the time I just want to stab numbers in the face.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Is this a case of ideology going too far?

Find out after the break!

 

[15357]

/Now for Numbers:

Agreed, for once.

Well...that's wrong, really. I'm fairly certain most people in this forum to whom I could pin an ideology (oh, Gick, he's liberal) have elaborated on their arguments many times. I hope that I have. Even if they haven't, though, there are only a certain amount of arguments for certain philosophies: as a case in point, your explanation (the one I'm quoting now) was predictable. Centralised government works, and a working government is good (inference that government being liberal pussy-foots around issues and is thus less effective). We must sacrifice civil rights for security. Capitalism produces competition which is good (does this apply to ideologies as well?). I didn't expect the whole confucianism thing, but looking back I really should have. Also highly predictable were the rhetorical flourishes exhorting us to sacrifice whatever to save the values of whatever and our very whatever.

Uh, ok.

Now you may say that's easy for me to write, because I can look back at your post. This is true. However, if you said "go on, guess my reasoning behind what I believe!" my guess would probably have been quite close to what you posted.

What must we sacrifice for freedoms and democracy? Why must we sacrifice for freedoms and democracy? If we are sacrificing freedoms, how are we gaining freedoms? Who are 'we'? Are people who disagree with us included in 'we'? Why exactly do we need to pay in liberties for greater security?

I recognise the problem you have with the left in your country (as patronising and...well, you know, the west looking down it's nose-y as that sounds). Everything seems very polarised. You have your mad raving commie loonies, and then you have...er, you. Is there nobody in between? Is THIS why you must sacrifice civil liberties - because with the state things are in, people turn to extreme communism and violence very easily?

I don't get it. What makes you think your own people aren't capable of deciding their own philosophies? I would have thought that if everyone's such a big fan of your Park fella they would be quite capable of not being communists without any help from an overbearing government.

Overbearing government - something I touched on earlier. You criticise oppressive governments for forcing their ideology on people but that's in a sense exactly what you endorce. It's like Mecha said - if you didn't hate communism so much, you could easily be a communist yourself.

As for respect for your elders and loyalty to the fatherland, you've just pretty much admitted you buy into complete irrationality as opposed to actually thinking about things.

I love the fatherland because I should. D:

There's no "respect your elders because their values must have some virtue - they have survived. Change things only if definitely for the better," here. There's just 'respect your elders because they're your elders and they'd rather you respected them than get uppity ideas they don't agree with".

#1. We're not worried about people turning into raving commies, we're worried about raving commies killing normal people.

#2. Ideologies should never be forced upon; and people really shouldn't have them either.


#3. Respect your elders because it is right. Piety and loyalty is the most important thing. Respect =/= agreement.

Loyalty: Why the heck not? We're the best! We have our great awesome beautiful culture and lands, and our fair share of nuts who try to destroy it.

It's just... right. Just like not killing people is morally right, being loyal to the fatherland is morally right.


And Tr0n, I want to stab you too. <3 <3 <3

 

[15357]

Sorry I couldn't put a more detailed version, I'm kinda pressed for time here. D:

 

[repiV]

the reason i love capitalism is because within it

-If you are driven, and if you have talent, you can rise above those who are lazy or unimaginative.

-People are encouraged to be independant and not wholly reliant upon the government's tits for sustenance.

-Science and industry prosper and advance.

-Not everything is regulated by the heavy hand of government officials.

-There's incentive to be learned and qualified

Sure there's downsides to capitalism, someone invariably is always going to make more money than you. There will be some people that don't deserve a penny with millions o dollars at their disposal. And the truly lazy or inept end up on the streets. (although i wouldn't necessarily call that a bad thing, others would)

The reason i see communism as a danger is because it preys on people's naturally lofty ideals to want to have everyone happy, provided for, and completely equal. Except that in doing that you've taken all the power from people who actually know what they are doing. You take away almost all the incentive to improve themselves and their surroundings. And you give the state all the power over everything. "The people" in regards to communism is the biggest misnomer i've ever heard. As all the decisions are invariably handled by a select few who can make arbitrary decisions without anyone's say. And since you spread the wealth and property among everyone, all you've suceeded in doing is making everything extremely mediocre. The ideals of communsim crush a whole lot more souls underfoot than capitalism, all because of how nice they seem.

Give this man a round of applause.

 

[repiV]

Uh, ok.



#1. We're not worried about people turning into raving commies, we're worried about raving commies killing normal people.

You're just waiting for the right time to invite Solaris over for tea and turn him in, aren't ya?

#2. Ideologies should never be forced upon; and people really shouldn't have them either.

Only weak-minded, simpering pussies have no ideology. What are you talking about?

#3. Respect your elders because it is right. Piety and loyalty is the most important thing. Respect =/= agreement.

"Do it because it's right" is not an argument. You need a reason. You also need to realise that Western society is far less hierarchial than your own, and playing the "bow down because you're supposed to" card won't work with us, because it doesn't apply here.

Loyalty: Why the heck not? We're the best! We have our great awesome beautiful culture and lands, and our fair share of nuts who try to destroy it.

I know a lot of guys who served in the US military or taught English in Korea, and without exception they all ended up hating Korea and despising Koreans. I have a very hard time believing that Korea is the best.

It's just... right. Just like not killing people is morally right, being loyal to the fatherland is morally right.

Killing people can be morally right. Try again.

And Tr0n, I want to stab you too. <3 <3 <3

 

[Tr0n]

Why did they end up hating korea/koreans? D:

I have a few SK friends and my aunt is from SK. I don't see what makes them bad people or whatever. Other then numbers...he's just a dumbass.

 

[repiV]

Why did they end up hating korea/koreans? D:

I have a few SK friends and my aunt is from SK. I don't see what makes them bad people or whatever. Other then numbers...he's just a dumbass.

Mostly because of their xenophobia, nationalism and general arrogance and hatred of foreigners. Also on the US military side, the frequent "Yankee go home" protests.

 

[Tr0n]

Understandable.

I still want to stab numbers in the face.

 

[repiV]

Understandable.

I still want to stab numbers in the face.

On the plus side, he makes good cannon fodder. Now all we need is a cause. I suggest the eradication of Islam as a political movement.

 

[15357]

Yeah, these guys don't know that the US military is about the only thing thats keeping them alive. Evil commies they are.

I know a lot of guys who served in the US military or taught English in Korea, and without exception they all ended up hating Korea and despising Koreans. I have a very hard time believing that Korea is the best.

I know a lot of foreign teachers here, and they all like us....

"Do it because it's right" is not an argument. You need a reason. You also need to realise that Western society is far less hierarchial than your own, and playing the "bow down because you're supposed to" card won't work with us, because it doesn't apply here.

Killing people can be morally right. Try again.

Ok, so if I killed you, would that be morally right? Try again.

I have a few SK friends and my aunt is from SK. I don't see what makes them bad people or whatever. Other then numbers...he's just a dumbass.

Ask them if they did their duty to the fatherland and did 2 ~ 10 years of military time. If they didn't, they're EVIL TRAITORS! D: D: D:

 

[Absinthe]

Ok, so if I killed you, would that be morally right? Try again.

Congratulations on completely missing his point. I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but either way it was stupid.

He said killing can be moral. You should have no problem agreeing with this. After all, I'm sure you'd like to see every communist in the world rounded up and gassed.

However, you've never really come up with a good reason for blind nationalism to the point of stupidity.

 

[15357]

What point?

 

[Sulkdodds]

The point he outlined right there.

RIGHT THERE. D:

I suggest the eradication of Islam as a political movement.

'As a political movement'? Can we bundle in evangelical christianity as well?

 

[Absinthe]

Re-read my post.

 

[repiV]

Yeah, these guys don't know that the US military is about the only thing thats keeping them alive. Evil commies they are.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that that makes them communists, but yes.

I know a lot of foreign teachers here, and they all like us....

How long have they been there? And maybe they do like you, but that doesn't mean their social life outside of work is any good. Besides, not being able to blow your nose in public - that's just terrible!
At least when arrogant Americans say "WE R TEH BESTEST", they can present some evidence for that claim. They piss me off also, but they do at the very least have a stake to that claim. Korea is the best because...why? Because you say so?

Ok, so if I killed you, would that be morally right? Try again.

I said "can be".

Ask them if they did their duty to the fatherland and did 2 ~ 10 years of military time. If they didn't, they're EVIL TRAITORS! D: D: D:

Right. I've never served in the military, so I'm an evil traitor.

 

[15357]

Sneaky edit you.... :frown:

Isn't moral correctness a good reason?

EDIT:

Right. I've never served in the military, so I'm an evil traitor.

Are you a citizen of the Republic Of Korea, born under and in the territories of the said nation? If you are, then you are.

 

[repiV]

The point he outlined right there.

RIGHT THERE. D:

'As a political movement'? Can we bundle in evangelical christianity as well?

Not yet. We can use evangelical Christians to fight Islam. Then we kill them.

 

[Absinthe]

Sneaky edit you.... :frown:

Isn't moral correctness a good reason?

You're not giving any reasons as to how it's morally correct.

 

[repiV]

Sneaky edit you.... :frown:

Isn't moral correctness a good reason?

EDIT:

Are you a citizen of the Republic Of Korea, born under and in the territories of the said nation? If you are, then you are.

Since when is the definition of traitor negotiable depending on which country you are a citizen of? That's nonsense.

 

[15357]

You're not giving any reasons as to how it's morally correct.

Ok, I'm gonna ask you something, why is rape morrally inccorect? (DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE RAPE)

 

[15357]

Since when is the definition of traitor negotiable depending on which country you are a citizen of? That's nonsense.

In the republic of Korea, it is your duty as a citizen to participate in mandatory military training.

 

[Absinthe]

Because it's against the will of another person, is often violent and traumatizing, and can result in a future burden such as pregnancy. Duh.

Now, why is unswaying loyalty to the "Fatherland" morally correct?

 

[Tr0n]

I could write a 10 page report on how morality/good/evil is subjective and so on, but I won't.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There are some actually pretty good reasons why rape is immoral but others can explain them and I want to play Hitman.

Not yet. We can use evangelical Christians to fight Islam. Then we kill them.

It's so crazy it just might work. D;

Korea is the best because...why? Because you say so?

To be fair, they have arguably the best Starcraft players, and Starcraft is arguably the best game ever.

 

[15357]

Because it's against the will of another person, is often violent and traumatizing, and can result in a future burden such as pregnancy. Duh.

Now, why is unswaying loyalty to the "Fatherland" morally correct?

Before that, why does that make it immoral?

 

[Tr0n]

It's neither.

 

[repiV]

In the republic of Korea, it is your duty as a citizen to participate in mandatory military training.

And by not doing so, you would be actively working against the interests of the nation how?
You would be "evil" how?

 

[15357]

And by not doing so, you would be actively working against the interests of the nation how?
You would be "evil" how?

You aren't doing your duty, duh.

 

[repiV]

You aren't doing your duty, duh.

That doesn't mean you are actively working against the interests of the country.

 

[Sulkdodds]

What if you're weedy and would be better off helping the economy, since you would only weaken the army?

What if the army are shock horror not doing the best thing for the country as a hole?

What if the last two pages are a perfect example of Mecha's post about you?

Those aren't very serious questions (except the last one). I just felt like being contrary.

Seriously, THIS is why people say you're incapable of backing up your views.