Israel's Gaza offensive turns bloody

[gh0st]

While I agree your nation had every right to be outraged at 9/11 (though no right to invade another country or two over it), I disagree that the residents in Gaza "had it coming" because of their election of a so-called "terrorist" government.

we had every right to invade afghanistan. i dont think anyone argues whether that particular war was justified. maybe not iraq.

To repeat an argument that has already been brought up, if Palestinians deserve attacks because they elected a terrorist leader, one can argue that United States civilians deserve attacks because they elected an organization that can easily be defined as terrorist.

the government of the united states a terrorist organization. allllright then. see this is the kind of shit im not going to reply to, because its bullshit. the us does not suicide bomb civilians to make a political statement. even comparing us to hamas is just ****ing lunacy.

Currently, Hamas has yet to take any major action against Israel.

this is just hamas claimed suicide bombing.

The 1 June 2001 suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;

The 9 August 2001 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;

The 1 December 2001 double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;

The 2 December 2001 suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;

The 9 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;

The 27 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;

The 18 June 2002 suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;

The 4 August 2002 suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;

The 21 November 2002 suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;

The 5 March 2003 suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;

The 17 May 2003 suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;

The 18 May 2003 suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;

The 11 June 2003 suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;

The 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;

The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at Tzrifin, in which nine soldiers were murdered and 10 were wounded;

The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which seven people were murdered and 70 were wounded;

The 29 January 2004 suicide bombing of a #19 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded;

The 14 March 2004 double suicide bombing at Ashdod port, in which 10 people were murdered and 16 were wounded.

On Aug 31, 2004 16 people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12.

Also, I would like to point out that, yes, one Israeli soldier was kidnapped by a Palestinian group. That was used as justification to invade and destroy ALL the infastructure in the Gaza strip.

no, israel has tolerated 425 terrorist attacks on its soil, killing 377 and wounding more than 2000. just by hamas alone.

In the meantime, Israel unjustly holds thousands of Palestinians in jail with no evidence or charges against them.

a heck of a lot better than being blown up in a bus dont you think?

The only power generator in Gaza, schools, hospitals, water supplies, roads and bridges were blown up by Israeli airstrikes. 7 officials of the Palestinian government were kidnapped by Israel.

who cares? i dont.

 

[99.vikram]

we had every right to invade afghanistan. i dont think anyone argues whether that particular war was justified. maybe not iraq.

So you went to Afghanistan and screwed it up further. And who pays the price for that? The neighbouring countries, where this increases the danger of terrorism.

who cares? i dont.

With Hamas voted into power, I dont either.

 

[DaMaN]

Well, it looks like I got myself into an ankle-biting contest!

(Just like to say that i hope nothing in these discussions is ever taking personally. These are intelligent, rational discussions.) (Oh, and that i look forwards to a good discussion gh0st )

we had every right to invade afghanistan. i dont think anyone argues whether that particular war was justified. maybe not iraq.

While this isn't really the thread for this discussion, I'd just like to point out that Article 2 of international law states:

"...that all States take no actions aimed at military intervention and occupation, forcible change in or undermining of the socio-political system of States, destabilization and overthrow of the their Governments and, in particular, initiate no military action to that end under any pretext whatsoever and cease forthwith any such action already in progress."

Article 51 of the UN charter allows for a response to an attack by a state, but does not say that we can bomb others in response to the acts of individuals.

Hence, the war on Afghanistan and the ensuing occupation is illegal.

the government of the united states a terrorist organization. allllright then. see this is the kind of shit im not going to reply to, because its bullshit. the us does not suicide bomb civilians to make a political statement. even comparing us to hamas is just ****ing lunacy.

Terrorism refers to the strategy of using violence, or threat of violence to generate fear, cause disruption, and ultimately, to bring about compliance wiht specific political, religious, ideological, or personal demands. (Source: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism ). State terrorism is essentially the same thing, though depending on the ill-defined "International community" (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism ).

The United States has launched several campaigns that are most certainly acts of terrorism.

The lead-up to and invasion of Afghanistan was characterised by threats and demands issued by the United States. These demands were demanding that Afghanistan hand over Osama bin Laden, close all “terrorist” training camps, and “hand over every terrorist and every person and their support structure to appropriate authorities”. This last demand is quite cryptic, as “every person and their support structure” implies that every single Afghan man, woman, and child was under suspicion and that the Government of Afghanistan was an “inappropriate authority” for dealing with these matters; a grave and insulting conclusion. These demands were enforced with threats of violence, and later, actual violence, to bring about compliance with these demands. Fear most certainly was generated by the invasion of the United States, but more wide-spread was destabilization and disruption:

"Operation Enduring Freedom" began over four years ago.
Between 20 and 50 thousand people may have died at occupation forces hands (exact number not known, as no body counts were ever taken, implying that Afghani life was "not worth counting")
Possibly the largest concentration of land mines on earth and other unexploded ordinance
Median Age: 17 years
78% unemployment rate
1 in 5 children die before Kindergarten
1 woman dies during a pregnancy every 30 seconds
50,000 Widows est. from a population of 1/300 women is a widow
Life expectancy has dropped 4.5 years (since the occupation) to just 42 years.
9% of girls outside Kabul attend school
Over 60% illiteracy
Indeed, Afghanistan, who was the first country to build a University, now has the "worst education system in the world" as rated by the UN.
(Statistics taken from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html )

Very similar things happened with the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Other demands were made with threats of violence (the definition of terrorism), and then that violence was followed through (the rest of the definition of terrorism).
Current Iraq:
Median Age: 19
5% of children die at birth
Lower estimate of total Iraqi Deaths: 30,000
This translates to 16 deaths a day since the occupation began
Life Expectancy at birth: 68 years
40% Literacy rate
25 million dollars have been pledged in 'reconstruction', most of which has been spent in building walls around U.S. military compounds.
Both major health centers of Iraq were bombed in the occupation
Contracts worth 5 billion dollars were sold off to U.S. Companies for 'reconstruction'
The new constitution allows 100% of the profit from these companies to be taken out of Iraq. (How is this going to boost their economy?)


Security certificates are another tool of the United States to spread fear at arbitrary arrest and deportation in their own country. (They are another issue entirely that i'd rather not get into at this point in time).

Hence, I must conclude through my own research and fact-finding that the United States is currently a terrorist state. And comparing it to Hamas is not complete lunacy: both were elected democratically and both sponsor terrorism.

this is just hamas claimed suicide bombing.

The 1 June 2001 suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;

The 9 August 2001 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;

The 1 December 2001 double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;

The 2 December 2001 suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;

The 9 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;

The 27 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;

The 18 June 2002 suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;

The 4 August 2002 suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;

The 21 November 2002 suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;

The 5 March 2003 suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;

The 17 May 2003 suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;

The 18 May 2003 suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;

The 11 June 2003 suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;

The 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;

The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at Tzrifin, in which nine soldiers were murdered and 10 were wounded;

The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which seven people were murdered and 70 were wounded;

The 29 January 2004 suicide bombing of a #19 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded;

The 14 March 2004 double suicide bombing at Ashdod port, in which 10 people were murdered and 16 were wounded.

On Aug 31, 2004 16 people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12.

When I said

Currently, Hamas has yet to take any major action against Israel

I meant since they have been elected. And, to the best of my knowledge, not a single major attack has been made by Hamas since their election (unless you take not recognising the apartheid Israel as a state as an attack).

Once again, i'd like to quote Article 2 of International law:
"...that all States take no actions aimed at military intervention and occupation, forcible change in or undermining of the socio-political system of States, destabilization and overthrow of the their Governments and, in particular, initiate no military action to that end under any pretext whatsoever and cease forthwith any such action already in progress."

Also, I would like to point out that, yes, one Israeli soldier was kidnapped by a Palestinian group. That was used as justification to invade and destroy ALL the infastructure in the Gaza strip.

no, israel has tolerated 425 terrorist attacks on its soil, killing 377 and wounding more than 2000. just by hamas alone.

The Prime Minister of Israel, on the day after invading Gaza, "insisted Israel only wanted to rescue its soldier".

NOTABLE ISRAELI VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS PRIOR TO THE GAZA INVASION (source: http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/442.shtml )
Israeli mock air raids over Gaza were carried out to terrorize the population, firing missiles at uninhabited areas, including a playground, and flying low over densely populated civilian areas. (1-7 June)

Israeli gunboats shot at Gaza's coast and wounded 2 Palestinian children playing on the beach (1 June)

Israeli border positions fired artillery shells at Jabalya town, injuring two Palestinian children inside their homes, and at Um al-Nasser village, injuring a 48-year-old Palestinian man (3 June)

An Israeli missile attack on a car carrying Palestinian militants kills two civilians (5 June)

Israel fired artillery shells at 3 Palestinian attempting to enter Israel through the fence, killing two and injuring the third. Shrapnel killed a member of the Palestinian police and wounded another, together with 4 civilians, including a 5-year-old and 17-year-old children, and a 50-year-old man (7 June).

Israel's shelled people enjoying their weekend on Gaza's beach, killing 8 Palestinian civilians including 7 members of the same family, and injuring a further 32 civilians including 13 children (9 June)

Three Palestinian civilians were killed when Israel fired a missile at a car near Jabalya (9 June)

An Israeli missile attack on a van driven by Palestinian militants on a busy Gazan highway killed eleven Palestinians including 2 children and 2 paramedics, and injured 30 Palestinians including a number of children (13 June)

Israel opened fire at a funeral procession east of Jabalya, wounding three 15-year-old children following the procession (13 June)

An Israeli missile attack on Palestinian militants missed its target and instead killed 3 children and wounded 13 civilians, including 7 children, aged 2, 5, 8, 9, 11, 11, and 16 (20 June)

An Israeli missile attack that missed its target hit a family home and killed a Palestinian brother and his pregnant sister. The missile injured 11 others, including 7 children aged 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 14, and 14. Four civilians, including a 10-year-old child, were injured near the home. (21 June)


Palestinians have had to endure hardship, suffering and oppression at the hands of Israel for nearly 60 years as Israel occupies their land. Israel IS founded on land that belongs to Palestinians, much in the same way that the United States and Canada are founded on land that belongs to the Native Americans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus

In the meantime, Israel unjustly holds thousands of Palestinians in jail with no evidence or charges against them.

a heck of a lot better than being blown up in a bus dont you think?

Not neccecarially, as conditions in the Israeli jails can be considered worse than death.

The only power generator in Gaza, schools, hospitals, water supplies, roads and bridges were blown up by Israeli airstrikes. 7 officials of the Palestinian government were kidnapped by Israel.

who cares? i dont.

I do. But that's merely my opinion. And probably the opinion of innocent civilians who won't be able to eat, drink, sleep, learn, or go anywhere. And who are getting blown up in the streets.

I also care because if horrible things like what is going on with Palestine and Israel can happen over there, they can happen over here. When a Palestinian, an Israeli, an Iraqi, or an Afghani is killed, it's just as serious as if an American or Canadian is killed. (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

-DaMaN

 

[Sulkdodds]

Plus, I believe Israel have democratic elections, and their government certainly uses "violence or the threat of violence to generate fear, cause disruption, and ultimately to bring about compliance with specific political, religious, ideological, or personal demands."

Therefore, they have both elected 'terrorist governements', and Gh0st shouldn't give a shit about either.