Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[kmack]

*The Italian government is among the few offering active support of the war in Iraq. Their government, lead by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, (Despite public opinion against the war) has continued to keep troops (3,000) in Iraq and dedicate themselves to the war.*


A vehicle was being driven by three veteran Italian security agents who had just negotiated the release of Giuliana Sgrena were fleeing Iraq with her when they approached a U.S. Checkpoint.

Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 outside a Baghdad mosque. Later that month, she was seen in a video pleading for her life. Italians have held numerous candlelight vigils calling for her safe return. Since the U.S. does not negotiate these releases (our people or anyone elses) the Italians decided they would, and succeeded on Friday night. They started to head to an airport home.

About 9 p.m., a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals (at 9 p.m. that seems a little foolish), flashing white lights, and, when the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one. Sgrena herself was shot in the left shoulder and the other rescuers were also wounded.

Nicola Calipari (who had previously aided the release of other Italian hostages) the married father of two died Friday, was shot dead after putting his body in front of Giuliana.

In the wake of the shootings, Berlusconi called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office for an explanation Berlusconi said Sembler would have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops. "Someone will have to take responsibility," and further "They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation we were stone silent as we waited to hear of the rest of what took place."

George W. Bush has called Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi offering his condolensces. I doubt that will be enough.

What will the results of this tragedy be, a loss of Italian support both on the ground and in the political world? With Italian public opinion of the war so low, and political enemies at the gates, can Berslusconi still support us? It is too early in the investigation to blame our troops or the italian rescuers, but regardless I think Italy will think seriously about their support of the war.

 

[Razor]

From what everyone says happened, the convoy carrying the just released hostage speeded towards an American checkpoint, the American soldiers signaled for the drivers to slow down and stop, they failed to slow down, warning shots were fired in the air, shots were then fired into the engine block when the convoy kept on coming.

In my eyes, the driver of the convoy was more to blame for the insident, then the American soldiers were. In a warzone, if you are coming up to a friendly checkpoint and are told to stop, you had better stop, especially in a warzone with suicide bombers and carbombs, etc. Whether the driver saw the signals, heard the shots, etc, who knows.

From the what articles i have read of the incident though, the American soldiers acted like i would have done. Again, whether the driver saw the signals or not or heard the warning shots, is another matter though. Too blame soldiers that are just doing their job and trying to stop suicide bombers from smashing into them or smashing into hospitals, police stations, peoples houses, etc, carrying thousands of lbs worth of explosives is very silly, when they clearly gave both visual and audible warnings.

However, one thing i would like to say is that i hope the Italian who died, Nicola Calipari, is honoured for his life saving move to shield the woman from harm, even though it cost him his life.

 

[KoreBolteR]

didnt they say they flagged the car to stop, and it just kept speeding?

what was that driver thinking.. cmon!
was he lookin to be fired at?

 

[kmack]

didnt they say they flagged the car to stop, and it just kept speeding?

what was that driver thinking.. cmon!
was he lookin to be fired at?

That's what seems incredibly strange to me. The italians were professionals, they should obviously have known enough to stop at a U.S. check point. They should have known a checkpoint was there. They should have known speeding to a checkpoint gets you shot. Doesn't it seem weird that someone who has rescued other hostages in Iraq, would know about checkpoints?

It just doesn't make ANY sense at all. I think that the whole story is not known yet, it'll take a few days for an investigation to show what happened.

 

[Zeus]

When you're told to stop in a warzone, you better stop. I would have done the same thing in the US troops position.

 

[kirovman]

Well I heard that they sped up towards the checkpoint or something.

Damn Italian secret agents, they don't have the skills. That would never have happened to James Bond.

Glad to see she got home ok, and is stable, but the situation is unfortunate to have turned out this way with the death of the rescuer.
Imagine getting free from some of the most evil people you have met, only to be shot by your "friendlies".

Also, we are not in full knowledge of the facts, but I would have thought you could shoot the tyres out of the car or something, unless it had just appeared and was very close?

If I was driving in Iraq and the Americans fired a warning shot at me, I might just panic and accelerate away myself, I'm not aware of military procedure. That could well be what happened here.

 

[kmack]

When you're told to stop in a warzone, you better stop. I would have done the same thing in the US troops position.

EXACTLY! WE all know to stop at a checkpoint and we are chumps sitting at home, these men were experienced veterans who had participated in other hostage rescues. Don't you think they would know enough to stop at an allied checkpoint? I think we might learn something from the investigations.

 

[Razor]

Well I heard that they sped up towards the checkpoint or something.

Damn Italian secret agents, they don't have the skills. That would never have happened to James Bond.

Glad to see she got home ok, and is stable, but the situation is unfortunate to have turned out this way with the death of the rescuer.
Imagine getting free from some of the most evil people you have met, only to be shot by your "friendlies".

Also, we are not in full knowledge of the facts, but I would have thought you could shoot the tyres out of the car or something, unless it had just appeared and was very close?

If I was driving in Iraq and the Americans fired a warning shot at me, I might just panic and accelerate away myself, I'm not aware of military procedure. That could well be what happened here.

If you have a crazed guy with a 2000lb bomb in his trunk heading straight for you and is intent on killing you, shooting out the tyres won't do anything at all as it won't stop someone who is determined, it might also cause the guy to lose control and career off the road and into a house, or something like that.


It isn't the first report this week like this. There was another report where US troops signaled a car to stop, it didn't, they fired warning shots, still it didn't stop, so they took out the 2 adults sitting in the front seats. When the car rolled to a stop, there were 6 children in the back and the soldiers had just killed their parents infront of their eyes. Again, i don't blame the soldiers, that is the way they are trained to act and are working in a situation where a man and woman in a car speeding towards them refusing to stop could be a petty criminal, a suicide bomber, or just a mother and father for whatever reason decided not to stop.

 

[kirovman]

If you have a crazed guy with a 2000lb bomb in his trunk heading straight for you and is intent on killing you, shooting out the tyres won't do anything at all as it won't stop someone who is determined, it might also cause the guy to lose control and career off the road and into a house, or something like that.

Aren't checkpoints supposed to have some kind of concrete block set up that ensure the cars have to drive around, so they can't head straight for you?

Except makeshift checkpoints though, but even then a helicoptor or two could provide concrete blocks, in quite a fast time.

I don't know how long these checkpoints are setup, but anything over a couple of hours, could that not warrant concrete block setups?

 

[Gargantou]

Ontop of that, there have been suicide bombings where the car speeds into the roadblock and detonate.

I agree with the "others", imo this is more to blame on the Italian driver but it's still always sad when a person dies, his own fault or not imo, atleast sometimes, but the US soldiers aren't to blame, they did what they "HAD" to, imo atleast.

 

[Razor]

Aren't checkpoints supposed to have some kind of concrete block set up that ensure the cars have to drive around, so they can't head straight for you?

Except makeshift checkpoints though, but even then a helicoptor or two could provide concrete blocks, in quite a fast time.

I don't know how long these checkpoints are setup, but anything over a couple of hours, could that not warrant concrete block setups?

I wasn't sure so i looked on Google for what some of the checkpoints look like.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...+checkpoint&start=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/large/Daycheckpoint.jpg
http://wmtv.static.worldnow.com/images/incoming/iraq/checkpoint.jpg

I also came up with pictures like this that showed suicide bombers attacking checkpoints

http://as.wn.com/i/ce/41dfb5570023e3.jpg

 

[KoreBolteR]

maybe the italian driver was payed by the terrorists to drive fast causing confusuin between the US troops, so the media can critisize them once again, as usual. the media love anti-americasn stuff like this.

 

[Absinthe]

maybe the italian driver was payed by the terrorists to drive fast causing confusuin between the US troops, so the media can critisize them once again, as usual. the media love anti-americasn stuff like this.

Well, that was a ****ing stretch.

 

[PvtRyan]

According to her partner, they had already passed several checkpoints and were now only 700 m away from the airfield and everyone knew she was coming. But that's according to her partner.

 

[kmack]

No one finds it weird that 3 professional soldiers that are allied with America and have done several operations in Iraq would charge at a US checkpoint without slowing down? I mean they had already passed a few checkpoints that same day! Something else has to have been happening that we don't know about yet, maybe they were being chased, or maybe the signals to slow were not good enough?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Sounds like an accident to me.

 

[GhostFox]

I don't know why the driver didn't stop, but even if I put on my "crazy conspiracist" hat on, I cannot think of any reason the US soldiers would want to shoot them on purpose.

So obviously the problem was with the italian driver. Maybe he was confused? Made a mistake? I have no idea. We may never know. But I don't see how the soldiers can be blamed for this. They just did their job.

 

[Razor]

I don't know why the driver didn't stop, but even if I put on my "crazy conspiracist" hat on, I cannot think of any reason the US soldiers would want to shoot them on purpose.

So obviously the problem was with the italian driver. Maybe he was confused? Made a mistake? I have no idea. We may never know. But I don't see how the soldiers can be blamed for this. They just did their job.

They did their job as long as they gave ample warning to the drivers, if they did, yes, they shouldn't be blamed.

 

[CptStern]

Sgrena has 9 lives, if I was her I'd move somewhere safe ...like nunavut :E

 

[GhostFox]

I'd move somewhere safe ...like nunavut

Ahh...the one place on the planet colder then Winnipeg. They have cool license plates though.

 

[CptStern]

all 3 residents?

 

[The Mullinator]

Sgrena has 9 lives, if I was her I'd move somewhere safe ...like nunavut :E

The fact that she was willing to work in Iraq probably means she doesn't like the cold.

 

[CptStern]

heh true! you couldnt pay me enough to work in iraq ...maybe if I was a doctor ..but no ..Doctors without borders left awhile back so no med school for me

 

[staticprimer]

Sounds to me like a misunderstanding, with no one really at fault. Seeing that they had already passes several checkpoints, and it being dark, I could see the driver thinking the soldiers' waving them down as waving them through. Concidering this driver was probably professionally trained, his reaction upon being fired on would probably be to evade and escape, meaning accelerate. This is a terrible tragedy and I would hate to see the finger pointing start.

 

[GhostFox]

all 3 residents?

Someone moved there last week. There are 4 now

 

[Calanen]

Something else has to have been happening that we don't know about yet, maybe they were being chased, or maybe the signals to slow were not good enough?

Or maybe they fust f**cked up. Happens.

If a car is speeding towards my checkpoint - I don't care if George Bush, the Pope and the recently resurrected Mahtma Ghandi are in the passanger seat with Nelson Mandela at the wheel. I am going to order stop, fire warning shots then say to my men 'Take him down!'.

And if that means, that someone on our side gets shot, this is regrettable. But what I am not going to happen, is letting any car speed towards the checkpoint, and think, hmm better not shoot, could be a crazy friendly who does not know what the signs in 3 languages saying stop mean. And then when I hesitate to fire - the car gets to the checkpoint, and blows up me, my men, and the civilians who are being processed at the checkpoint. Hell no thankyou.

Mistakes happen in war. A lot of them. But this appears as though, it was the Italians that made the mistake, not the USA.

 

[bliink]

I think it was just a nasty combination of a whole bunch of unfortunate little bits
1) The car was speeding because they wanted to get the ex-hostage out of there
2) I'm pretty sure the checkpoint would only have called out in English (thats whats happened in all the videos I've seen so far)
3) Since it was Italian, its likely that there were communication issues in higher levels of command anyway
4) Soldiers sitting in a checkpoint in the middle of Iraq are bound to be pretty trigger happy

What really sucks is that the agent who died took the bullets for the person he was protecting, but the bullets came from friendlies.

 

[Calanen]

Blink - agreed - that it sux big time. And I bet the troops feel really bad about it too. I can imagine exactly what they would be saying to their officers now, trying to get some assurance that they did the right thing, followed procedure.

The calls out would have definitely been in english, but most italians speak English, especially Italian Secret Service dudes. Even if they did not, the troops waving to stop, then firing warning shots is a good signal. They have mounted machine guns on either side of most of those checkpoints - so it is really fortunate that any1 is alive. In addition, I saw one article say that the hostage was treated for shrapnel wounds? Does this mean someone fired a grenade launcher at the car? Possible I guess.

 

[bliink]

In addition, I saw one article say that the hostage was treated for shrapnel wounds? Does this mean someone fired a grenade launcher at the car? Possible I guess.

I think its more likely a round ricochted off part of the car.

She was really lucky to survive- I dont know if anyone else remembers, but there was a video going around of a similar event at a different checkpoint in iraq in which they basically fill a car with lead in about 3 seconds.

 

[Calanen]

I think its more likely a round ricochted off part of the car.

She was really lucky to survive- I dont know if anyone else remembers, but there was a video going around of a similar event at a different checkpoint in iraq in which they basically fill a car with lead in about 3 seconds.

Yeah SOP - is, to put as much lead into the car until its falling apart once its not stopping....which makes sense, because even if its taking hits, a car can still keep driving towards you and blow up. Until one of the officers says 'cease fire' and the car is stationary. Then slowly move in and check for surivors, and secure the area around the car, so if there is a bomb, that still goes off - it doesn't kill all the rubberneckers in the crowd around you.

 

[falconwind]

i've heard that the term 'checkpoint' is used very loosely in Iraq, and that sometimes it's just a bunch of humvees parked on the side of a dark highway.

When stopping a car or investigating a possible bomb, U.S. patrols often set up makeshift checkpoints by parking Humvees in the middle of a darkened highway and treating any vehicle approaching as hostile. Iraqi drivers sometimes don't realize they are upon an American position until it is too late. Dozens and perhaps hundreds of Iraqi civilians have been killed in the last two years after failing to stop while approaching military convoys or checkpoints, including at least nine in the last two months, according to news reports and U.S. military statements.

If the driver was trained and didn't see the "checkpoint" there is no way of knowing if the incoming fire is from americans or perhaps insurgents. Either way, when you get shot at, the usual course of action is to run for your life, not stop your car.

 

[CptStern]

could be a case of trigger happy gi's jumping the gun ..it's happened before ...note to righty's, notice I said "could"

 

[Calanen]

could be a case of trigger happy gi's jumping the gun ..it's happened before ...note to righty's, notice I said "could"

And it could have been the KGB dressed as US soldiers trying to make the Americans look bad? Pity that the available evidence does not point to this, nor, does it point to the US troops doing anything other than their jobs. So lets stick to what we know before we start casting aspersions about the GI's being 'trigger happy.' If they just randomly shot at vehicles in a checkpoint I'd have them courtmartialled. But I think it is far more likely, that they were following procedure.

 

[Zeus]

They did the right thing. If you were in a warzone where carbombs happen daily you would have done the same thing if you saw a car speeding toward a checkpoint.

 

[Razor]

i've heard that the term 'checkpoint' is used very loosely in Iraq, and that sometimes it's just a bunch of humvees parked on the side of a dark highway.



If the driver was trained and didn't see the "checkpoint" there is no way of knowing if the incoming fire is from americans or perhaps insurgents. Either way, when you get shot at, the usual course of action is to run for your life, not stop your car.

If it is that causing the problem, then the American officers need to sort out a better way of marking a checkpoint, rather then a couple of vehicles in the road.

edit: The reporter claims no warnings were given and that their car was not going fast, she also made it sound like the checkpoint was just a makeshift one with vehicles.

http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.as...n.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=1&mc=5&ml=ma&lc=en

 

[KoreBolteR]

sgt shellback shud know, wasnt he in Iraq..?

or is he forum banned? lol

 

[Calanen]

sgt shellback shud know, wasnt he in Iraq..?

or is he forum banned? lol

A GI and war veteran was forum banned! This calls for a Senate Investigation heh!

 

[GhostFox]

The reporter claims no warnings were given and that their car was not going fast, she also made it sound like the checkpoint was just a makeshift one with vehicles.

I don't know if she was in any state of mind to understand the events that were really happening, so I'd wait to see how an investigation pans out before jumping on the bandwagon over the statements of a distraught and confused woman.

 

[CptStern]

"over the statements of a distraught and confused woman"


sexist

 

[GhostFox]

sexist

Huh???