Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[Razor]

"over the statements of a distraught and confused woman"


sexist

I don't see him being sexist, just by stating that the person involved was a woman is in no way being sexist.

 

[CptStern]

"distraught and confused woman"

I'm sure he wouldnt have used "distraught" if the person was a man ...it just sounds to me like he's discounting her explaination by saying ""distraught and confused woman"

she wasnt distraught and confused:


The Italian journalist wounded by American troops in Iraq (news - web sites) after her release by insurgents rejected the U.S. military's account of the shooting and declined Sunday to rule out the possibility she was deliberately targeted. The White House said it was a "horrific accident" and promised a full investigation.

Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport"

source

 

[Razor]

"distraught and confused woman"

I'm sure he wouldnt have used "distraught" if the person was a man ...it just sounds to me like he's discounting her explaination by saying ""distraught and confused woman"

she wasnt distraught and confused:


The Italian journalist wounded by American troops in Iraq (news - web sites) after her release by insurgents rejected the U.S. military's account of the shooting and declined Sunday to rule out the possibility she was deliberately targeted. The White House said it was a "horrific accident" and promised a full investigation.

Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport"

source

Anyone would be distraught and confused in those sorts of situations, the only people who wouldn't be would be battled hardened soldiers.

 

[jondy]

Keep it on-topic, eh, this is a pretty sound discussion

No one finds it weird that 3 professional soldiers that are allied with America and have done several operations in Iraq would charge at a US checkpoint without slowing down? I mean they had already passed a few checkpoints that same day! Something else has to have been happening that we don't know about yet, maybe they were being chased, or maybe the signals to slow were not good enough?

Yeah, it does strike me as strange

 

[CptStern]

Keep it on-topic, eh, this is a pretty sound discussion



Yeah, it does strike me as strange

stranger still:


"....showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport...."

 

[Calanen]

The reporter has an agenda though, to get as much mileage against the US as she can from the incident. If a black ops team was dispatched to kill every1 as she seems to be saying, she would not be alive, nor would they have given every1 who didn't die in the initial burst medical attention? When black ops teams are dispatched to kill people, they don't send the survivors to hospital.

 

[CptStern]

:upstare: did you ask her what her agenda was? or are you just speculating?



why was the driver shot in the temple if he was driving towards the check point?

 

[bliink]

why was the driver shot in the temple if he was driving towards the check point?

he was covering her with his body, no?

 

[Calanen]

did you ask her what her agenda was? or are you just speculating?

Her agenda is clear from her recent media statements where she has said that the US meant to kill them because they did not like the fact that she was released nor that there had been negotiations with the hostages. If the US meant to kill her, she'd be dead. Hence wheel the agenda out.......

 

[CptStern]

he was covering her with his body, no?

I dont know ..it just seemed kinda odd ...a single shot ..to the temple ..it could be a [un]lucky shot or the mark of an assasin. She did say she thought the attack was deliberate ...also if he was shot in the temple while he was driving forward that would indicate they either had someone in front of the blockade ..or they fired as he drove by ..or maybe he just had his head turned for the fatal instant

 

[CptStern]

"If the US meant to kill her, she'd be dead. Hence wheel the agenda out......."


tell that to Fidel

 

[bliink]

I dont know ..it just seemed kinda odd ...a single shot ..to the temple ..it could be a [un]lucky shot or the mark of an assasin. She did say she thought the attack was deliberate ...also if he was shot in the temple while he was driving forward that would indicate they either had someone in front of the blockade ..or they fired as he drove by ..or maybe he just had his head turned for the fatal instant

I think a fluke shot there is most likely, because, if I were faking a death by a roadblock shooting, I wouldn't want people to be suspicious about where my target was shot-- i'd just spray the front of him with bullets. (ooh... violent!)

 

[Calanen]

I dont know ..it just seemed kinda odd ...a single shot ..to the temple ..it could be a [un]lucky shot or the mark of an assasin. She did say she thought the attack was deliberate ...also if he was shot in the temple while he was driving forward that would indicate they either had someone in front of the blockade ..or they fired as he drove by ..or maybe he just had his head turned for the fatal instant

Interesting assassins the USA have, they call in medical treatment for you if you don't die.....

 

[bliink]

Interesting assassins the USA have, they call in medical treatment for you if you don't die.....

Maybe they were trying to kill the italian agent? I dunno.. or care.

 

[Edcrab]

I just find it interesting that, for whatever reason, the Italians are yet to release an official statement on what happened, while the Americans repeatedly describe the bizzare checkpoint scenario.

I really want to know what happened- but although US assassins aren't be infallible, they could easily have killed her with explosives, and blamed terrorists.

 

[Kebean PFC]

All (set-up) checkpoints have a sniper team. Maybe the sniper fired at the agent thinking he was an Iraqi, went for a second shot and saw the woman.

Again this is just speculation, so don't kill me...

 

[bliink]

Maybe the sniper fired at the agent thinking he was an Iraqi, went for a second shot and saw the woman.

Again this is just speculation, so don't kill me...

I'm pretty sure a sniper would have an observer that would ID all the targets before he started shooting.
And who says there are no female hostiles anyway...

 

[Calanen]

Without backing up the claim, the 56-year-old journalist said she believed it was possible she was targeted because the United States objected to methods used to secure her release.

``The fact that the Americans don't want negotiations to free the hostages is known,'' she told Sky TG24 television by telephone, her voice hoarse and shaky. ``The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostage, everybody knows that. So I don't see why I should rule out that I could have been the target.''

 

[jimbo118]

saw it on the news tonight,what a terrible tragedy..another victim

 

[kirovman]

Hmmm...we should all come back here in 50 years and discuss the iraq war.

See if it was considered a success or another Vietnam.

Time will tell....

 

[Kebean PFC]

She thinks the US wants her dead... fine, but she should know that if an Ops team was sent she would be dead. And probably further out, like in the middle of nowhere.

Yes the observer calls out targets, but what if he called out the target? And IMHO, most guys don't want to shoot a woman unless they have no other options

 

[bliink]

And IMHO, most guys don't want to shoot a woman unless they have no other options

I bet lots of soldiers do stuff the dont want to.

 

[Apos]

I don't think this woman is right: she's just traumatized and upset that one of her rescuers was pointlessly killed. I can't imagine that the soldiers would have intentionally targeted her or her people.

I do think, though, that we cannot ever trust official accounts coming from the military unless they come from an appointed military incident investigator. The brass and PR departments lie and spin to the American people all the time to put the best face on things. That's their job. If there is gross misconduct by one easily identifiable person, the military is pretty good at convicting them. But if there is widespread misconduct that goes back to policy, especially civilian policy, there's absolutely no way that anyone important is going to be held accountable for ****ups or bad policies.

 

[kmack]

I do think, though, that we cannot ever trust official accounts coming from the military unless they come from an appointed military incident investigator.

Like the ones that told us there were WMDs in Iraq? I think we should believe the first hand accounts given by the investagtor and her rescures because unlike the US troops at the checkpoint and the US military officials, they dont have anything to hide, they didnt screw up bad enough to kill friendlies like the troops.

 

[Calanen]

If there is gross misconduct by one easily identifiable person, the military is pretty good at convicting them. But if there is widespread misconduct that goes back to policy, especially civilian policy, there's absolutely no way that anyone important is going to be held accountable for ****ups or bad policies.

I agree with that to some extent but Im going to be circumspect in what I may say in response.

But put it this way - I HATE IT - when good soldiers are hung out to dry by the brass. There is only what is right. And there have been some decisions, which I will not name lest I be in contempt of the courts martial that made them, which, hmm - I would have made a different decision, lets put it that way.

But, happens in all organisations - not just the military. If you have ever worked in a big corporation - you will see that its just the same there. Very few people raise above human nature and implement honesty, ethics, and justice in what they do. They preach it - but when it comes to the crunch - it goes out the window for convenience.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Something is getting fishy. She claims about 300 rounds fired into the car?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/...1456cb711006f784911e5d8c0d&cid=452&f=53746348

This picture from Knob Creek range, this is what a car looks like with a couple hundred rounds fired. Something is fishy

An actual terrorist SUV that attempted to ram a checkpoint but was stopped.

Something is just a little off, I dunno.

 

[bliink]

An actual terrorist SUV that attempted to ram a checkpoint but was stopped.

Did it explode or is that just bullet damage?

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

I'm sure a dozen rounds seems like 300... The guys at the check point know when they can fire and fire when they can't.

Unfortunate accident. Someone didn't call ahead, or if they did the message didn't get to the guys at the gate. They're a jumpy bunch for sure, because they are the target of a lot of car bombings.

If you think there's some good conspiracey for the GI's to hit an Italian editor than you are WAY TOO BORED WITH YOUR OWN LIVES.

Step away from the keyboard and go outside for awhile. Seriously.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'm sure a dozen rounds seems like 300... The guys at the check point know when they can fire and fire when they can't.

Unfortunate accident. Someone didn't call ahead, or if they did the message didn't get to the guys at the gate. They're a jumpy bunch for sure, because they are the target of a lot of car bombings.

If you think there's some good conspiracey for the GI's to hit an Italian editor than you are WAY TOO BORED WITH YOUR OWN LIVES.

Step away from the keyboard and go outside for awhile. Seriously.

You didnt see it coming man? We all knew the US GI's were going to be blamed in some conspiracy over this.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

You didnt see it coming man? We all knew the US GI's were going to be blamed in some conspiracy over this.

Oh no... I knew that. It's another required reading lesson inside radical Mosques and anti-American websites like this one.

 

[bliink]

Oh no... I knew that. It's another required reading lesson inside radical Mosques and anti-American websites like this one.

If you've got a problem, there are many alternatives

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

If you've got a problem, there are many alternatives

LOL I'm there too.

I'm just saying this situation is what it is... Not all the cloak and dager stuff... But that sure is darned interesting.

 

[GhostFox]

Something is getting fishy. She claims about 300 rounds fired into the car?

If someone was shooting at me they could probably fire 5 shots at me and I'd think it was 100. She is upset and probably has no realistic memory of the event. I don't know who could in her position. She does seem to possibly have a bit of an agenda, but I don't know if that is factoring in here or not. She seems very upset that the US was against the methods used to get her free. While I am glad she was freed, I do feel sorry for the Italians all over the world who have now become terrorist target #1 for kidnappings. Once you give in to these people, they won't ever stop.

 

[Venmoch]

Regardless of whether this is an isolate incident or not the Americans still have a rather patchy record of Friendly fire in Iraq at the best of times.

If I recall most of the UK Casualitys in the actual "War" part were not through enemy action but through friendly fire. (And of course there is that infamous A-10 attacking a UK Tank group even after a flare had been sent up and radio messages sent.) Now for a country that prides itself on good Friendly detection systems and accurate weapon systems that is a little bit of a problem....

 

[GhostFox]

Now for a country that prides itself on good Friendly detection systems and accurate weapon systems that is a little bit of a problem

FF is an unfortunate part of war. The reason the US seems so exposed is because usually 90% of the troops anywhere are american, so it makes sense they would usually be the perpatrators.

 

[Venmoch]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm

"Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous. "

Yes I can agree but the US gave the equipment to the UK Troops in order not to get shot by them in the first place.

 

[Korgoth]

This is pretty lame and doesn't hold water on the journalists part, if they were sincerely (they being the soldiers) trying to kill her, she wouldn't be here to tell her story, she would be buried in the desert somewhere.

This was definately an accident, and in extreme life and death situations, people are bound to be anxious, nervous etc. Which in turn leads to mistakes.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2901515.stm

"Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.

"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].

"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous. "

Yes I can agree but the US gave the equipment to the UK Troops in order not to get shot by them in the first place.

IFF? You're talking star wars... You think a guy with a rifle has a transponder and TVI? You think that vehical was carrying a tranponders as well?

Helmet mounted Computers, transponders, survaliance systems are really neat in comic books. This war would be really neat if it were a fictious story.

 

[seinfeldrules]

IFF? You're talking star wars... You think a guy with a rifle has a transponder and TVI? You think that vehical was carrying a tranponders as well?

Helmet mounted Computers, transponders, survaliance systems are really neat in comic books. This war would be really neat if it were a fictious story.

He's talking about an A-10 FF incident back during the initial campaign.

 

[Calanen]

The Americans have a bad record for friendly fire incidents. They happen in all armies, can't be avoided. Hopefully it can be made to happen less tho. Im sure no1 means too - but its about being more careful I think. Sometimes it can't be avoided, but Im sure at least some of these incidents could with better planning and management.

But I don;t think that there has been a war ever, that Canadian, Australian, and UK troops have not been shelled or bombed by the United States. The thing is, the US bombs and shells its own troops just as much..... Is enough being done to avoid this? I do not know. But it has happened a hell of a lot.

I have to confess - thats my biggest fear in serving overseas. Getting hit by US artillery or airpower. Not whatever the squaddie in his keffiyah and AK47 is doing.