Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[Bodacious]

It's not really that the US targeted her, I doubt many people actually believe that. The problem is that our policy there is so ****ed many people get killed for no reason. Before this everyone just brushed it off as "oh, the arabs are stupid as they should of stopped, so they deserve it". We now know this is not the case when this could happen to an english speaking special agents. So the policy there is clearly screwed and there is no way you can spin this to say it is the agent's fault.

So what would have the soldiers do?

Example: In the midst of multiple car bombings over many months you and the rest of your squad are at your checkpoint watching for anything suspcious. Next thing you see is a car speeding towards your location. You and your squadmates wave your arms furiously hoping they will slow down. The car keeps speeding. What do you do?

 

[GhostFox]

This will prove my point.

So a few nutty extremists represent all right wing people all over the world? Should everyone start holding you to task for every crazy utterence by a left wing nut simply because you happen to be left wing yourself?

 

[No Limit]

So a few nutty extremists represent all right wing people all over the world? Should everyone start holding you to task for every crazy utterence by a left wing nut simply because you happen to be left wing yourself?

The point is only people on the right are attacking her. In my original post I said some if you didn't notice.

 

[No Limit]

So what would have the soldiers do?

Example: In the midst of multiple car bombings over many months you and the rest of your squad are at your checkpoint watching for anything suspcious. Next thing you see is a car speeding towards your location. You and your squadmates wave your arms furiously hoping they will slow down. The car keeps speeding. What do you do?

Going 25-35 MPH a half mile away is not speed toward a target. What would I have them do you ask? Not shoot innocent civillians. When we had this discussion before when Iraqi civillians got killed you blamed it on the stupidity of the Iraqis for not stopping; what is your argument here when this happened to a trained special agent that knew the exact US policies on this so it couldn't have been a mistake on their part.

 

[Bodacious]

Going 25-35 MPH a half mile away is not speed toward a target. What would I have them do you ask? Not shoot innocent civillians.

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

When we had this discussion before when Iraqi civillians got killed you blamed it on the stupidity of the Iraqis for not stopping; what is your argument here when this happened to a trained special agent that knew the exact US policies on this so it couldn't have been a mistake on their part.

I haven't ready anything on this and truthfully I don't really care. What I do care about is you saying our policies are flawed and need to be fixed. I am not saying you can't have that belief, by all means, do so. But if you want to get on your soap box and complain about our policies I think you ought to offer up a solution to the problem. So:

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

 

[GhostFox]

The point is only people on the right are attacking her.

I think most people are thinking she is a little off, on both the left and right, so your argument holds no water.

 

[CptStern]

no not really ... I think most, on both sides, believe there's more to this then they're letting on

 

[kmack]

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?


How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

Because that is the difference between soldiers, and morons with guns.

Because that is the difference between soldiers, and morons with guns.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Because that is the difference between soldiers, and morons with guns.

Because that is the difference between soldiers, and morons with guns.

kmack, you do know that present day terrorists are cowards that disguise themselves as civilians.. dont you?

 

[CptStern]

as opposed to tradional terrorists that dressed in military uniforms and carried flags loudly proclaiming their involvement in terrorism

"hey look at me! I'm a terrorist! do you like my spiffy uniform?"

 

[Calanen]

Going 25-35 MPH a half mile away is not speed toward a target. What would I have them do you ask? Not shoot innocent civillians. When we had this discussion before when Iraqi civillians got killed you blamed it on the stupidity of the Iraqis for not stopping; what is your argument here when this happened to a trained special agent that knew the exact US policies on this so it couldn't have been a mistake on their part.

You don't know what any1 was doing yet. So wait until you have proof positive before you leap out of your armchair general's lazyboy and start demanding justice.

 

[Tr0n]

I don't see the problem...it was an accident. :|

They didn't stop...so our troops fired.They didn't know that italian woman was in the car.

It was friendly fire...

 

[Calanen]

No I don't think that, but I know the right are the only ones trying to destroy her. You think I'm just pulling this out of my ass because I want to start a left vs right? Go to democraticunderground.com and then to freerepublic.com and search for her name. This will prove my point. As an example (first thread under a search of her name at free republic):

I'm on the right - and I don't hope she was killed. But I do know that this woman is a socialist journalist ( I think communist is pushing it) and of course she is going to use whatever mileage she can out of this for her leftisti agenda.

But it makes no sense that the USA would want her dead, fire a few rounds into the car, not kill her, so stop firing and then give her medical attention. Pretty piss poor way to go about a termination and a cover up. So it is far more likely at this stage that it was a mistake, because they happen in warzones.

But to seize on every mistake and say 'AHA! evil US murdering bastards!' Proof undeniable of the global conspiracy just!' demonstrates bias and an agenda.

So as I say - wait for the investigation.

 

[GhostFox]

I think communist is pushing it

I thought she was openly communist. Doesn't she work for a communist newspaper?

 

[Bodacious]

I think Occam's razor needs to be applied to this situation.

 

[Calanen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptStern
this person? ...that's just cruel

Fact checking is the right's kyptonite.

No actually, this MA BAKER:

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/mullenfamily/wynona1.html

No - no limit. I called Ma Baker Ma Parker, and said i was wrong. Then Stern finds som1 selling origamis stuff also calling herself Ma Baker - and that means I have made a spectactular stuff up and he's found my 'kryptnonite.' Man you are gonna have to do a lot better than making the odd 'cheapshot'.

Just because I get two similar surnames confused, accidentally - and then Stern finds another person calling herself the same name - does not mean that i have tried to deliberately mislead any1, and the example given was just that, an example.

The right's kryptonite is fact checking? Maybe it was the Left's given they lost the election, after, amongst other things, seizing on fraudulent documents as proof that George Bush broke the rules in the National Guard. A good fact checker might have checked to see that they did not have Microsoft Word fonts when Dubya served in the National Guard. And as for facts, Michael Moore is the *worst* of any1 on the left with citing accurate facts. If I could be bothered Ill put together a collection of Moore's lies, inaccuracies and half truths. It will be a very long post.

 

[kmack]

No actually, this MA BAKER:

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/mullenfamily/wynona1.html

No - no limit. I called Ma Baker Ma Parker, and said i was wrong. Then Stern finds som1 selling origamis stuff also calling herself Ma Baker - and that means I have made a spectactular stuff up and he's found my 'kryptnonite.' Man you are gonna have to do a lot better than making the odd 'cheapshot'.

Just because I get two similar surnames confused, accidentally - and then Stern finds another person calling herself the same name - does not mean that i have tried to deliberately mislead any1, and the example given was just that, an example.

The right's kryptonite is fact checking? Maybe it was the Left's given they lost the election, after, amongst other things, seizing on fraudulent documents as proof that George Bush broke the rules in the National Guard. A good fact checker might have checked to see that they did not have Microsoft Word fonts when Dubya served in the National Guard. And as for facts, Michael Moore is the *worst* of any1 on the left with citing accurate facts. If I could be bothered Ill put together a collection of Moore's lies, inaccuracies and half truths. It will be a very long post.

What does this have to do with The US shooting Italian Allies?

 

[seinfeldrules]

no not really ... I think most, on both sides, believe there's more to this then they're letting on

Nah, I think it is mainly people from overseas attempting to create yet another anti- American conspiracy. Hmmmm Bush did good with the Iraqi elections, how can we counter that? AH! Got it, blame Americans for purposely shooting a reporter, even though all known facts point to an accident.

I thought she was openly communist. Doesn't she work for a communist newspaper?

Yes.

They kidnap who they can, and not many italians are there, at least if they are captured their government won't hang them out to dry.

You're right. They'll pay off the terrorists instead of attempting rescue. However, where do you think this money will go? I bet the terrorists wont be buying Barbie Dolls with it.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Wow. It is amazing how far most of you are willing to go to prove your point and you dont even have clue as to what its like in combat. I doubt most of you have even fired a firearm at a target, let aalone a moving one.

"Shoot out the tyres"

This is an example of how the media screws with your mind. In RL a shot at a 500m target with a .30-06 Remington M-700 will hit in the area the size of a quarter right? That is with an expert marksman at a stationary target, on a firing range. In combat i would assume it gets much worse, especially if you have an automatic weapon, as the instinct would be to hold the trigger down.

 

[kmack]

You're right. They'll pay off the terrorists instead of attempting rescue. However, where do you think this money will go? I bet the terrorists wont be buying Barbie Dolls with it.

Who cares, the Italian government watches out for it's people. I think that a soldier would understand that the enemy has more money for guns and bombs IF it was money which freed an innocent woman from a beheading. But i guess thats just me being compassionate.

 

[GhostFox]

But i guess thats just me being compassionate.

That's one word for it I guess.

Will you also be compassionate for the 127 people killed in a car-bombing funded by that money?

 

[kmack]

That's one word for it I guess.

Will you also be compassionate for the 127 people killed in a car-bombing funded by that money?

Could you please give me a source where you found the information on the amount of money paid by the italians, and to whom it was paid for.

You are making unfounded extrapolations (or lies) to prove a point.

I presented you with the FACT that a woman was saved from death by italians.

You responded with an absurd, make-believe story with no basis in fact.

 

[GhostFox]

Could you please give me a source where you found the information on the amount of money paid by the italians, and to whom it was paid for.

You think she was ransomed from the terrorists without giving them any money??

 

[seinfeldrules]

You think she was ransomed from the terrorists without giving them any money??

hahaha that would be quite the ransom!

I hear it was a million dollars, but I really dont feel like looking it up.

 

[kmack]

You think she was ransomed from the terrorists without giving them any money??

Could you please give me a source where you found the information on the amount of money paid by the italians, and to whom it was paid for.

You are making unfounded extrapolations (or lies) to prove a point. What about political prisoners? Or a prisoner taken by italians? Until you show me some facts, we can't say one thing or the other.

 

[kmack]

hahaha that would be quite the ransom!

I hear it was a million dollars, but I really dont feel like looking it up.

Ever hear of political prisoners? They are good ransoms.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Ever hear of political prisoners? They are good ransoms.

The terrorists demanded money. Do some research yourself.

"Speaking Sunday, Sgrena indicated a ransom may have been paid — and charged that the payment may have been the reason U.S. forces fired on the rescue car."

 

[Kebean PFC]

LOL "May have been"
That is all it is and all it will probably ever be. Debating this is worthless as we all have our own views and own motives.
I am kinda pissed that the Italians paid for her rescue becuase that money goes to fund anti-U.S. and terroristic acts all over the world. I think it was a poor desicion on the Italians part, but they made and i don't think this was an assasination attempt becuase unlike the movies, if we (U.S.) wants you dead we will find a way.

My $0.02, take it for face value cuz we are all just a bunch of talking heads...

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

LOL "May have been"
That is all it is and all it will probably ever be. Debating this is worthless as we all have our own views and own motives.
I am kinda pissed that the Italians paid for her rescue becuase that money goes to fund anti-U.S. and terroristic acts all over the world. I think it was a poor desicion on the Italians part, but they made and i don't think this was an assasination attempt becuase unlike the movies, if we (U.S.) wants you dead we will find a way.

My $0.02, take it for face value cuz we are all just a bunch of talking heads...

You're wrong on one point.... They fund radical fundementalists... Not anti-us... They are anti anything at all that is not radically fundementalists... More Muslims are killed by these wack jobs than Westerners.

On the rest your spot on. :cheers:

 

[Calanen]

The problem with ransoms is, once you pay the first one, they just keep on coming. It was the Israelis who led the way with no-negotiation, and unbelievably in the bad old days the western governments used to negotiate with terrorists. Berlusconi is a shrewd enough politician to know however, that he wont be able to the withstand two many Italian deaths in Iraq given the euroliberal anti-war view - and in the end, its the US's problem. So i think it likely he cut them a check. Political reality.

 

[Calanen]

What does this have to do with The US shooting Italian Allies?

It makes sense if you follow the thread, in a paint by numbers kind of way......but had started to be derailed, but I deserved my right of reply

 

[Lemonking]

she was held hostage for how long?
If I would have ben held hostage and then speeding thrue Bagdad
I wouldnt really notice whats happeing around me I would just wanna get home
and those pics prove it

 

[Calanen]

Gee, if the vehicle wasn't mysteriously lost we would know how many were fired. Since we don't have that vehicle we should take her word for it. Do you see what you are doing here? You are claiming everything she says is a lie without actually waiting until the facts come out. Our government hasn't even dispuited the 300 round claim, why are you?

Scroll up - didn't someone else post a copy of a photograph of the car involved? And unless the shots are on the passenger side of the door, which is out of shot, or the rear, less likely, that does not look like a car that has been hit by 300 rounds.

 

[kmack]

The terrorists demanded money. Do some research yourself.

"Speaking Sunday, Sgrena indicated a ransom may have been paid — and charged that the payment may have been the reason U.S. forces fired on the rescue car."

coulda been anything, political prisoner would be a ransom, guns would be a ransom, immunity from prosecution could be a ransom. fact is, we dont know yet.

 

[Venmoch]

Wait, so being Communist suddenly makes someone bad?

Oh dear, looks like I'm in the poop.....

 

[sniperelite7]

4) Soldiers sitting in a checkpoint in the middle of Iraq are bound to be pretty trigger happy

Not trigger happy that is a stupid way to put it, i would say cautious.

And like all the other post, The driver is most likely to blame because he did not obey the warnings given.

 

[kmack]

If you were being threatened with a beheading, would you want your government to :

A. Ignore your plight
or
B. Rescue you from death

I choose B.

 

[Bodacious]

If you were being threatened with a beheading, would you want your government to :

A. Ignore your plight
or
B. Rescue you from death

I choose B.

Of course B, but not by giving in to their demands. A rescue attempt should be made.

 

[No Limit]

Scroll up - didn't someone else post a copy of a photograph of the car involved? And unless the shots are on the passenger side of the door, which is out of shot, or the rear, less likely, that does not look like a car that has been hit by 300 rounds.

I didn't see any pictures, if you find them let me know. Here is the AP article that says the car is missing:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_reconstruction

When The Associated Press in Baghdad asked the U.S. military to see the vehicle on Saturday, the military said it didn't know where it was.

So I really don't think you should be jumping to the conclusion that she is lying as there are still a lot of fishy things going on here. Here is the account of them only going 40 km/h:

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/world/national/2005/03/08/italy-calipari050308.html

 

[No Limit]

I haven't ready anything on this and truthfully I don't really care. What I do care about is you saying our policies are flawed and need to be fixed. I am not saying you can't have that belief, by all means, do so. But if you want to get on your soap box and complain about our policies I think you ought to offer up a solution to the problem. So:

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

I am not an expert in the military nor do I claim to be, it is not my job to come up with better policies. We invaded their conuntry, they didn't ask for it, Bush did. It is our army's duty to protect civillians over there. When a white, english speaking special trained agent can get killed at a checkpoint everyone else can as obviously there is something extremely flawed with the policy. This is not the first time this is happened, however, it seems this is the first time it happened to a white person so suddenly there is some huge outrage over this as it can't be blamed on the stupidity of the Iraqis.