Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[Bodacious]

No, I'm going to see if I didn't make a mistake. I like to fact check my stuff, even if I am wrong.

Also, I didn't take her word on it, I took the driver's word on it. What reason does the driver have to lie? He is certainly not part of their newspaper and so far it doesn't seem he has an agenda.

I like to use facts, too. That is why I have provided a source for everything I have said so far.

Give me your source that says they weren't speeding. I would like to see it.

Here is my source they were speeding:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe

The convoy carrying Sgrena and Calipari was approaching the checkpoint at a ``high rate of speed'' about 8:55 p.m. yesterday, said Marine Sergeant Salju Thomas by telephone from Baghdad. ``It's an extremely threatening act,'' Thomas said. ``That's the exact same thing that car bombers do.''

Also, the driver is dead, wasn't he the one who was shot and killed? I don't recall if the thrid passenger has said anything.

 

[Bodacious]

Obviously, as this case demonstrated, this isn't the case. At half a mile away they posed no threat.

So if a civillian is running up to a soldier for help he should be shot as there is no way to know that he is a civillian?

1. Give me your source that says they were half a mile away.

2. No, there is a way to know he is a civllian, he won't have a weapon in his hands.

 

[No Limit]

I like to use facts, too. That is why I have provided a source for everything I have said so far.

Give me your source that says they weren't speeding. I would like to see it.

Here is my source they were speeding:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe



Also, the driver is dead, wasn't he the one who was shot and killed? I don't recall if the thrid passenger has said anything.

I think I already posted this:

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/world/national/2005/03/08/italy-calipari050308.html

 

[Bodacious]

No I am not, but please don't play stupid. You know damn well why you continue to apply that label to her. In this country we have been taught from day one that communism and communists are bad. Notice how you never applied this label when she was a hostage, she was a good woman that became a victim of terrorism back then.

I don't recall there being any discussion that I took part in about when she was a hostage.

So you won't wait for an investiagaion? You just assume they are telling the truth?

Of course I will wiat for an investigation. Please tell me how I implied I wouldn't. Of course I assume our soldiers are telling the truth. I would believe them over someone with an agenda any day.

That isn't good enough. THIS GUY WAS A SPECIAL AGENT THAT WAS PART OF THE COALITION FORCES, THERE IS NO WAY HE WASN'T AWARE OF US POLICIES AT CHECKPOINTS.

So what? Highly qualified people make stupid mistakes all the time.

So if they fired warning shots why would this guy keep going? Nobody would make a mistake like that.

Nobody makes a mistake like that? Sorry, a lot of people do. That is why this agent isn't the only one who has been killed in this way.

Notice how these simply don't add up yet you will not admit that there is a good chance our military did something wrong here.

They didn't.

The convoy carrying Sgrena and Calipari was approaching the checkpoint at a ``high rate of speed'' about 8:55 p.m. yesterday, said Marine Sergeant Salju Thomas by telephone from Baghdad. ``It's an extremely threatening act,'' Thomas said. ``That's the exact same thing that car bombers do.''

 

[Bodacious]

I think I already posted this:

http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/world/national/2005/03/08/italy-calipari050308.html

1. Gianfranco Fini wasn't the driver of the car. I don't know how you made that mistake.

2. Where do you think Fini got his info?

 

[No Limit]

Of course I will wiat for an investigation. Please tell me how I implied I wouldn't. Of course I assume our soldiers are telling the truth. I would believe them over someone with an agenda any day.

No you are not waiting for an investigation as you said she a communist and she is lying. That tells me you already picked sides even when there are so many fishy things with this.

So what? Highly qualified people make stupid mistakes all the time.

Please, for christ sake, get real. If warning shots are coming toward you you stop. This guy was in Iraq for a long time, he knows the policy of checkpoints. Just cut the crap, there is no way someone with that much experiance and that type of background could make a mistake like this, especially with warning shots being fired.

They didn't.

Like I said, you are not waiting for an investigation, you already picked your side.

 

[kmack]

Please, for christ sake, get real. If warning shots are coming toward you you stop. This guy was in Iraq for a long time, he knows the policy of checkpoints. Just cut the crap, there is no way someone with that much experiance and that type of background could make a mistake like this, especially with warning shots being fired.

The men in the car would have to have a death wish to proceed in such a fashion. Arm signals at 9pm? that seems kinda useless. How were the men in the car to be sure this isnt an iraqi ambush as the Iraqi captors obviously know where they were headed.

Frankly, the blame is on the U.S. as of right now. We shot and killed our allies.

Pending an investigation we must accept that we murdered an innocent man. He was murdered cold bloodedly, there is no difference in what the U.S. soldiers did that night than what an insurgent does on a daily basis.

At the end of everything, there is still an innocent body riddled with US bullets.

 

[Bodacious]

No you are not waiting for an investigation as you said she a communist and she is lying. That tells me you already picked sides even when there are so many fishy things with this.

I don't have to pick sides. I have provided sources that proved she has changed her story. No side to pick when she digs her own grave.

Please, for christ sake, get real. If warning shots are coming toward you you stop. This guy was in Iraq for a long time, he knows the policy of checkpoints. Just cut the crap, there is no way someone with that much experiance and that type of background could make a mistake like this, especially with warning shots being fired.

If he is so knowledgeable about this stuff why is he dead?

One side says he made a mistake. The othe side believe in a conspiracy theory. Occam's razor, use it.

Like I said, you are not waiting for an investigation, you already picked your side.

Sorry, not the case. I don't have to pick sides. I have provided sources that proved she has changed her story. No side to pick when she digs her own grave.

 

[Bodacious]

At the end of everything, there is still an innocent body riddled with US bullets.

Except technically he isn't innocent. He sped towards a checkpoint wich made him fair game for being treated as any other terrorst.

 

[No Limit]

If he is so knowledgeable about this stuff why is he dead?

Do you use any reasoning in your replies? That is my point exactly, why is he dead? The mistake certainly wasn't on his part.

The othe side believe in a conspiracy theory. Occam's razor, use it

Nope, I already said in this thread I don't think there was a conspiracy theory. I always said that our policy there is flawed and is leading to thousands of civillians being killed each day.

 

[No Limit]

Except technically he isn't innocent. He sped towards a checkpoint wich made him fair game for being treated as any other terrorst.

Are you even listening to anything being said?

 

[Bodacious]

Here is some insight into what Iraq checkpoints are like. As you can see, "Nobody would make a mistake like that(running a checkpoint)" is an incorrect statement.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html

What Iraq's checkpoints are like
By Annia Ciezadlo | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
Editor's note: On Friday, an Italian intelligence officer was killed and Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was wounded as their car approached a US military checkpoint in Baghdad. The US says the car was speeding, despite hand signals, flashing white lights, and warning shots from US forces. Ms. Sgrena says her car was not speeding and they did see any signals. This personal account, filed prior to the shooting, explains how confusing and risky checkpoints can be - from both sides.

It's a common occurrence in Iraq: A car speeds toward an American checkpoint or foot patrol. They fire warning shots; the car keeps coming. Soldiers then shoot at the car. Sometimes the on-comer is a foiled suicide attacker (see story), but other times, it's an unarmed family.

As an American journalist here, I have been through many checkpoints and have come close to being shot at several times myself. I look vaguely Middle Eastern, which perhaps makes my checkpoint experience a little closer to that of the typical Iraqi. Here's what it's like.

You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint.

If it's confusing for me - and I'm an American - what is it like for Iraqis who don't speak English?

In situations like this, I've often had Iraqi drivers who step on the gas. It's a natural reaction: Angry soldiers are screaming at you in a language you don't understand, and you think they're saying "get out of here," and you're terrified to boot, so you try to drive your way out.

'Stop or you will be shot'

Another problem is that the US troops tend to have two-stage checkpoints. First there's a knot of Iraqi security forces standing by a sign that says, in Arabic and English, "Stop or you will be shot." Most of the time, the Iraqis will casually wave you through.

Your driver, who slowed down for the checkpoint, will accelerate to resume his normal speed. What he doesn't realize is that there's another, American checkpoint several hundred yards past the Iraqi checkpoint, and he's speeding toward it. Sometimes, he may even think that being waved through the first checkpoint means he's exempt from the second one (especially if he's not familiar with American checkpoint routines).

I remember one terrifying day when my Iraqi driver did just that. We got to a checkpoint manned by Iraqi troops. Chatting and smoking, they waved us through without a glance.

Relieved, he stomped down on the gas pedal, and we zoomed up to about 50 miles per hour before I saw the second checkpoint up ahead. I screamed at him to stop, my translator screamed, and the American soldiers up ahead looked as if they were getting ready to start shooting.

After I got my driver to slow down and we cleared the second checkpoint, I made him stop the car. My voice shaking with fear, I explained to him that once he sees a checkpoint, whether it's behind him or ahead of him, he should drive as slowly as possible for at least five minutes.

He turned to me, his face twisted with the anguish of making me understand: "But Mrs. Annia," he said, "if you go slow, they notice you!"

Under Saddam, idling was risky

This feeling is a holdover from the days of Saddam, when driving slowly past a government building or installation was considered suspicious behavior. Get caught idling past the wrong palaces or ministry, and you might never be seen again.

I remember parking outside a ministry with an Iraqi driver, waiting to pick up a friend. After sitting and staring at the building for about half an hour, waiting for our friend to emerge, the driver shook his head.

"If you even looked at this building before, you'd get arrested," he said, his voice full of disbelief. Before, he would speed past this building, gripping the wheel, staring straight ahead, careful not to even turn his head. After 35 years of this, Iraqis still speed up when they're driving past government buildings - which, since the Americans took over a lot of them, tend be to exactly where the checkpoints are.

Fear of insurgents and kidnappers are another reason for accelerating, and in that scenario, speeding up and getting away could save your life. Many Iraqis know somebody who's been shot at on the road, and a lot of people survived only because they stepped on the gas.

This fear comes into play at checkpoints because US troops are often accompanied by a cordon of Iraqi security forces - and a lot of the assassinations and kidnappings have been carried out by Iraqi security forces or people dressed in their uniforms. Often the Iraqi security forces are the first troops visible at checkpoints. If they are angry-looking and you hear shots being fired, it becomes easier to misread the situation and put the pedal to the metal.

A couple of times soldiers have told me at checkpoints that they had just shot somebody. They're not supposed to talk about it, but they do. I think the soldiers really needed to talk about it. They were traumatized by the experience.

Traumatic for soldiers, too

This is not what they wanted - really not what they wanted - and the whole checkpoint experience is confusing and terrifying for them as well as for the Iraqis. Many of them have probably seen people get killed or injured, including friends of theirs. You can imagine what it's like for them, wondering whether each car that approaches is a normal Iraqi family or a suicide bomber.

The essential problem with checkpoints is that the Americans don't know if the Iraqis are "friendlies" or not, and the Iraqis don't know what the Americans want them to do.

I always wished that the American commanders who set up these checkpoints could drive through themselves, in a civilian car, so they could see what the experience was like for civilians. But it wouldn't be the same: They already know what an American checkpoint is, and how to act at one - which many Iraqis don't.

Is there a way to do checkpoints right? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it seems that the checkpoint experience perfectly encapsulates the contradictions and miseries and misunderstandings of everyone's common experience - both Iraqis and Americans - in Iraq.

 

[kmack]

Here is some insight into what Iraq checkpoints are like. As you can see, "Nobody would make a mistake like that(running a checkpoint)" is an incorrect statement.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html

ok, so it is our fault for making crappy checkpoints and expecting people to stop for them. Very good point!

If we have such shoddy checkpoints how can we expect them to be recognized and respected? We just have to shoot em all. I agree completely.

 

[Bodacious]

Do you use any reasoning in your replies? That is my point exactly, why is he dead? The mistake certainly wasn't on his part.

Nope, I already said in this thread I don't think there was a conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy theory? Do you use any reasoning in your replies?

You claim this agent made no mistake, right? So the fault is that of the soldiers, correct?

From what I can tell you believe in one of two possibilities.

1. It is the soldiers fault for defending themselves when a potentional car bomb was speeding towards their checkpoint.

2. You subscribe to Sgrena's belief that she was deliberatly targeted, which is a conspiracy therory.

I am willing to bet you belive in number 1, correct?

I always said that our policy there is flawed and is leading to thousands of civillians being killed each day.

So how do we fix it? How do we better determine between covillians and car bombers speeding towards a checkpoint?

 

[No Limit]

Thank you for the article, that pretty much sums up that the system is ****ed.

And again, an english speaking person would know when they need to stop for a check point as that article said, especially an english speaking person with a military background.

 

[Bodacious]

ok, so it is our fault for making crappy checkpoints and expecting people to stop for them. Very good point!

If we have such shoddy checkpoints how can we expect them to be recognized and respected? We just have to shoot em all. I agree completely.

There is more to the article than us having shoddy checkpoints. You have to take that into context as well.

 

[No Limit]

There is more to the article than us having shoddy checkpoints. You have to take that into context as well.

There is no more context needed, these checkpoints are confusing. The Washington Post reported there have been 14 other civillian deaths in these checkpoints. That's 14 out of what, hundreds of thousands? With these odds how is it that a special agent could be the one to make the fatal mistake?

 

[kmack]

There is more to the article than us having shoddy checkpoints. You have to take that into context as well.

Hmm, now I am really confused, the person said how the checkpoints are inconspicuous and just look like a random group of soldiers who are common place in Iraq. This would make it seem that the shooting was more our fault than ever. its 9pm and there are "waving soldiers" (must be tough to see at night) and "flashing lights" I don't think this is obvious enough to an approaching driver.

Basically, you made a good point:

Here is some insight into what Iraq checkpoints are like. As you can see, "Nobody would make a mistake like that(running a checkpoint)" is an incorrect statement.

and now you are refuting it.

 

[Bodacious]

There is no more context needed, these checkpoints are confusing. The Washington Post reported there have been 14 other civillian deaths in these checkpoints. That's 14 out of what, hundreds of thousands? With these odds how is it that a special agent could be the one to make the fatal mistake?

So how do we make them less confusing?

Hundreds of thousands? At max 16 thousand. 16k is a far stretch from 100k.

 

[kmack]

So how do we make them less confusing?

Hundreds of thousands? At max 16 thousand. 16k is a far stretch from 100k.

Well if they are confusing in the first place, they shouldn't be there. They should be made less confusing from the start so that we didn't spend all this time killing innocent Iraqis and now innocent Italians.

It's a problem that shouldn't exist, at least maybe, in the aftermath of this tragedy (since it's italians and not iraqis, no one here cared when iraqi civilians died, "thats the price they pay for democracy") the situation will be addressed and fixed.

 

[No Limit]

So how do we make them less confusing?

Hundreds of thousands? At max 16 thousand. 16k is a far stretch from 100k.

I would think a lot more people drive there. But lets just say 16K each day. How is it that a special agent with military training was the one of only about 16 that made this mistake?

How do we make it less confusing? How about address the issues in the article you posted for starters.

 

[Bodacious]

Hmm, now I am really confused, the person said how the checkpoints are inconspicuous and just look like a random group of soldiers who are common place in Iraq. This would make it seem that the shooting was more our fault than ever. its 9pm and there are "waving soldiers" (must be tough to see at night) and "flashing lights" I don't think this is obvious enough to an approaching driver.

Not all checkpoints are like the one you describe, as the article clearly states. LOL OMG OWNED!

Basically, you made a good point:


and now you are refuting it.

How so? I still stand by the fact that people die because of this. As no limit pointed out and changed his mind on, 14 people have died because of failures to stop at checkpoints.

 

[Bodacious]

I would think a lot more people drive there. But lets just say 16K each day. How is it that a special agent with military training was the one of only about 16 that made this mistake?

Sorry, I made a mistake. When you said 14 out of hundreds of thousands I thought you meant 14 of the hundreds of thousands that have died

I don't know, a lapse in judgement? Who knows what was going through his head at the time.

How do we make it less confusing? How about address the issues in the article you posted for starters.

Fair enough.

 

[Bodacious]

Well if they are confusing in the first place, they shouldn't be there. They should be made less confusing from the start so that we didn't spend all this time killing innocent Iraqis and now innocent Italians.

But not all of them are confusing, as the article says.

It's a problem that shouldn't exist, at least maybe, in the aftermath of this tragedy (since it's italians and not iraqis, no one here cared when iraqi civilians died, "thats the price they pay for democracy") the situation will be reprimanded.

We shall see.

 

[kmack]

But not all of them are confusing, as the article says.

All it takes is one.

But ya, I think we can all agree that if this leads to some checkpoint reforms or regulations that lead to a safer situation for both our troops and the innocent civilians who come into contact with them, there is some good news after all.

*edit* wow this post was popular :E

 

[Bodacious]

All it takes is one.

But ya, I think we can all agree that if this leads to some checkpoint reforms or regulations that lead to a safer situation for both our troops and the innocent civilians who come into contact with them, there is some good news after all.

*edit* wow this post was popular :E

Fair enough.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Would you want a $1.00 icrease in taxes (all of em)?
That is what it would take to install a better checkpoint system. This includes set machine guns, a tank or two, concrete blocks, and most importantly, the training on how to man them.

I personally don't believe this woman, as she changes her story every day. She always seems to up it too. First it was troops that shot 100 rounds at her, then 200, then 300, then "a wall of lead," and now a tank too? Does this not seem fantastical to anyone?

 

[Calanen]

I am all for the reform of checkpoints. Can we do things better and can we learn from this? Perhaps. Were we doing the best that we possible I could? Maybe I don't know. But it is a good time to revisit these questions.

Putting out various checkpoint paraphenalia, like traffic cones and signage is a must. Normally also you want to coral the traffic and make it so it has to swerve to go around checkpoint vehicles, so it must decrease speed. In the USA Ordinarily also, you must dip your headlights before approaching a US checkpint or sentry post so that they can look at you clearly. But I think this is more on the fly, for bases, so they can look at you and wave you through without having to pull you over.

Not doing so (and many would not do so) would be a good way to attract some negative attention. I do not know whether this is the rule or whethr it is being enforced in Iraq, but I don't see how it could be. Too few people would know this rule.

But I welcome ways to look at checkpoint reform. I am sure the US military is too - last thing it wants is these problems in the press.

 

[Calanen]

Well if they are confusing in the first place, they shouldn't be there. They should be made less confusing from the start so that we didn't spend all this time killing innocent Iraqis and now innocent Italians.

It's a problem that shouldn't exist, at least maybe, in the aftermath of this tragedy (since it's italians and not iraqis, no one here cared when iraqi civilians died, "thats the price they pay for democracy") the situation will be reprimanded.

Remedied maybe....

 

[bliink]

I don't think they should set up a checkpoint unless they're willing to do it properly.
A couple of hummers in the dark, on the side of the road does not constitute a "checkpoint"

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'm pretty sure this was a temporary checkpoint due to the visit of the US ambasador.

 

[kmack]

Remedied maybe....

thanks for pointing out my typographical errors, truley a very insightful and useful response to my topic.

 

[kmack]

Something is getting fishy. She claims about 300 rounds fired into the car?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/...1456cb711006f784911e5d8c0d&cid=452&f=53746348

This picture from Knob Creek range, this is what a car looks like with a couple hundred rounds fired. Something is fishy

An actual terrorist SUV that attempted to ram a checkpoint but was stopped.

Something is just a little off, I dunno.

all those pictures were of cars whose bombs went off. lol, those were some serious bullets :thumbs:

 

[K e r b e r o s]

From what everyone says happened, the convoy carrying the just released hostage speeded towards an American checkpoint, the American soldiers signaled for the drivers to slow down and stop, they failed to slow down, warning shots were fired in the air, shots were then fired into the engine block when the convoy kept on coming.

Yep. Course, I wonder why her rescue was kept secret from US personel ...

 

[K e r b e r o s]

all those pictures were of cars whose bombs went off. lol, those were some serious bullets

Bullets dont always go through the metaling on cars. Further, those explosions could've been set off by American Rockets or M2 20mm cannons -- showing the after-scaring by fires and weapon blast.

Her car was shot up in key places -- engine, driver-side windshield, tires, and engine. I just said engine, did'nt I?

 

[Calanen]

thanks for pointing out my typographical errors, truley a very insightful and useful response to my topic.

It wasn't a typographical error. It was an inappropriate use of the word 'reprimanded' not a spelling mistake. And just a NB - not a call to have you hung from a lamp-post, so you don't get embarassed at dinner parties through inappropriate usage of the term 'reprimanded'. I perhaps should have PMed you though, but I did not think you would be as sensitive about it. Will do so in future.

 

[Calanen]

Originally Posted by RakuraiTenjin
Something is getting fishy. She claims about 300 rounds fired into the ca

r?

I thought the pictgure to the left, the white car of the news story was the one that she was in when shot at. If this is incorrect, that was the assumption clearly to be made from it being to the left of the news story about her - ie, one would assume that you would only have a picture next to the news story that related to it. That is the most sensible explanation. Yes I know the two cars that were blown up were not the same thing. But what about the white one?

 

[No Limit]

r?

I thought the pictgure to the left, the white car of the news story was the one that she was in when shot at. If this is incorrect, that was the assumption clearly to be made from it being to the left of the news story about her - ie, one would assume that you would only have a picture next to the news story that related to it. That is the most sensible explanation. Yes I know the two cars that were blown up were not the same thing. But what about the white one?

Those pictures are from a different car, the car they were driving has not been found for some strange reason.

 

[Bodacious]

Those pictures are from a different car, the car they were driving has not been found for some strange reason.

Found it:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14992_Better_Photos_of_Sgrenas_Car&only=yes

300-400 rounds, yah right.

Edit: here is the AP story on yahoo news so you don't attempt to cry foul:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050308/481/rom17003082010

 

[No Limit]

Found it:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14992_Better_Photos_of_Sgrenas_Car&only=yes

300-400 rounds, yah right.

Thanks, didn't see this yet. I still find it a little fishy that the car was missing for all these days for what appears to be no valid reason at all. What is also odd is that there are no bullet holes in the hood of the car; if they were targeting the engine this would clearly not be the case. The tires are also not shot out and actually I don't see any bullet holes, do you?

It would be interesting to get a map of the area where the checkpoint was, where the car was, and where the troops that fired were.

EDIT: Actually I see one bullet hole on the windshield, nothing else.