Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[No Limit]

The right's kryptonite is fact checking? Maybe it was the Left's given they lost the election, after, amongst other things, seizing on fraudulent documents as proof that George Bush broke the rules in the National Guard. A good fact checker might have checked to see that they did not have Microsoft Word fonts when Dubya served in the National Guard. And as for facts, Michael Moore is the *worst* of any1 on the left with citing accurate facts. If I could be bothered Ill put together a collection of Moore's lies, inaccuracies and half truths. It will be a very long post.

Your source was about a shooting over 100 years ago if I am reading it correctly. Therefore my statement still stands.

 

[Bodacious]

I am not an expert in the military nor do I claim to be, it is not my job to come up with better policies. We invaded their conuntry, they didn't ask for it, Bush did. It is our army's duty to protect civillians over there. When a white, english speaking special trained agent can get killed at a checkpoint everyone else can as obviously there is something extremely flawed with the policy. This is not the first time this is happened, however, it seems this is the first time it happened to a white person so suddenly there is some huge outrage over this as it can't be blamed on the stupidity of the Iraqis.

I get it, whine and complain but offer up no better solution. Ok, great, thanks...for nothing.

 

[No Limit]

I get it, whine and complain but offer up no better solution. Ok, great, thanks...for nothing.

:dozey:

Do you really need to try to ignite a flame war in every thread? I gave my reasons, if you want to ignore them that's fine but if you decide to do that stop posting.

 

[Bodacious]

:dozey:

Do you really need to try to ignite a flame war in every thread? I gave my reasons, if you want to ignore them that's fine but if you decide to do that stop posting.

What reasons are those for not offering up a solution to the problem you are complaining about? "I'm not in the military so I can't offer up a solution," you say? At least that is what I gathered from your post.

Are you not whining and complaining? If you fit that description I wouldn't call it a flame.

If you want to tell me about a problem the offer up a solution then fine, have at it. Until you tell me how our soldiers are supposed to better distinguish between a speeding car with innocent civillian(s) inside and a speeding car witha bomb inside then all you are doing is wasting bandwidth and your time.

 

[No Limit]

What reasons are those for not offering up a solution to the problem you are complaining about? "I'm not in the military so I can't offer up a solution," you say? At least that is what I gathered from your post.

Are you not whining and complaining? If you fit that description I wouldn't call it a flame.

If you want to tell me about a problem the offer up a solution then fine, have at it. Until you tell me how our soldiers are supposed to better distinguish between a speeding car with innocent civillian(s) inside and a speeding car witha bomb inside then all you are doing is wasting bandwidth and your time.

It is not my job to offer a better solution, I didn't send our troops there, it is my job to make sure the government follows the rules of warfare and that they do everything to protect the unarmed civillians. You are completely ignoring the facts and my points. According to the people in the car they were not speeding and from official reports they were a half mile away. So lets assume that this person is a liar and they were speeding, a half mile is not a danger to these soldiers. There is no reason they should have been shot at and our policy needs to be changed before more people get killed. If nothing strage happened and they were following the rules where the hell is the car? Did it beam up to the mother ship? Do I have to repeat the facts in every reply to you for it to actually sink in?

 

[KoreBolteR]

this is really pissing me off here. the terrorists are winning the media war, and know they are gettin millions of euros from Italy (who pay them in the first place to save berlusconi's ass), in the meanwhile, the terrorists now have more money to invest in killing innocent people, buy new guns, deadly weapons, and explosives.

its jus gonna keep on going on and on and on, people gettin payed for either a money ransom, making that person beg US troops to leave, and after the hostage being killed, medias going mad at US... blaming his/her death on them and not the terrorists...

not to mention, attacking different countries to force their peoples to rebel agains the governments (who may be friendly with the americans), therefore resulting in a loss in the next general election, forced resignation.

 

[Bodacious]

It is not my job to offer a better solution, I didn't send our troops there, it is my job to make sure the government follows the rules of warfare and that they do everything to protect the unarmed civillians. You are completely ignoring the facts and my points. According to the people in the car they were not speeding and from official reports they were a half mile away. So lets assume that this person is a liar and they were speeding, a half mile is not a danger to these soldiers. There is no reason they should have been shot at and our policy needs to be changed before more people get killed. If nothing strage happened and they were following the rules where the hell is the car? Did it beam up to the mother ship? Do I have to repeat the facts in every reply to you for it to actually sink in?

I don't care about your "facts." I don't care that you are taking a communist's word over our own military's.

All I ask is that you answer a simple question.

How are our soldiers are supposed to better distinguish between a speeding car with innocent civillian(s) inside and a speeding car witha bomb inside?

Answer these if you don't answer the above:

Why can't you answer that? What is the point of complaining about a problem if you aren't willing to offer up a solution?

 

[No Limit]

I don't care about your "facts."

That's all you had to say at the start of this and I wouldn't have bothered you. If you do not care about facts there is no point discussing anything else with you. I just gave you facts how they were not speeding, you simply ignored it. So forget it, there is no point.

 

[KoreBolteR]

That's all you had to say at the start of this and I wouldn't have bothered you. If you do not care about facts there is no point discussing anything else with you. I just gave you facts how they were not speeding, you simply ignored it. So forget it, there is no point.

dude i think he jus wants you to answer his Question.. then he'll look at your 'facts'.

 

[No Limit]

dude i think he jus wants you to answer his Question.. then he'll look at your 'facts'.

There is no answer if you don't take facts in to account.

 

[Bodacious]

That's all you had to say at the start of this and I wouldn't have bothered you. If you do not care about facts there is no point discussing anything else with you. I just gave you facts how they were not speeding, you simply ignored it. So forget it, there is no point.

I told you a long time ago I didn't care. Page nine, post 125.

 

[No Limit]

I told you a long time ago I didn't care. Page nine, post 125.

Sorry I missed it, if I didn't I would have stopped wasting my time around post 125. I apologize.

 

[jondy]

I haven't ready anything on this and truthfully I don't really care.

You mean that quote?

Bang goes your right to argue your point

 

[kmack]

lol owned.

 

[Bodacious]

You mean that quote?

Bang goes your right to argue your point

I never tried to argue anything about this whole situation, please quote me where I did.

LOL OMG OWNDEDED!!!!


All I did was ask No Limit how he would fix a policy he thinks is broken, which he was unable to answer.

Oh yah, good quoting out of context. I should have left you on ignore.

 

[No Limit]

I never tried to argue anything about this whole situation, please quote me where I did.

LOL OMG OWNDEDED!!!!


All I did was ask No Limit how he would fix a policy he thinks is broken, which he was unable to answer.

Oh yah, good quoting out of context. I should have left you on ignore.

There is no way to answer when you don't care about the facts. Do you understand that? These people were not speeding and stopped for various other checkpoints. You will not sink that in you head so there is no way I can do an explaination.

 

[No Limit]

Oh yah, good quoting out of context.

Out of context? Can you please explain to me how that quote means anything different from your original post?

 

[Bodacious]

Do you really want to know what I think about this whole issue?

(Exerpts from the Jawa Report: The Great Giuliana Sgrena Hostage Hoax)

First Giuliana Sgrena is a communist. Not saying that is bad, but it is her word against America's military. You decide who you put your faith into.

Second, lets here from Giuliana Sgrena herself and what contradictions she makes about the event:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm

--What did your captors tell you when you were hostage?

That I needed to help them to ask [Silvio] Berlusconi to withdraw the troops. They saw all what happens in Italy, demonstrations against the occupation, demonstrations for my liberation. And so they [became] aware that I was really working against the occupation and people were supporting me and so they told me: "We have seen that you are very appreciated in Italy". And that helped me to be freed.

--Tell us about the car journey you shared with him.

We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

Sgrena now changes her story. It was tanks that fired on the car?

Heres more:

The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1431436,00.html

From my fist link:

When did you become aware that your car was being fired at?

We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack.

I won't even go into how she claims the car was shot 300 to 400 times.

here is a blog with links about the car:

http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/03/06/sgrenas-car/

You decide. The car above wasn't shot 300-400 times.


More from Sgrena:

--Do you think it was deliberate?

I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information. But also a lack of information in this case is [their] responsibility because you are in a war field and you have the responsibility to pass immediately any information.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323361.stm

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

And writing in her left-wing Il Manifesto newspaper, she said upon her release her kidnappers warned her to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

Deliberate or not? You decide.



6 million dollars are now in the hands of terrorists.

Her words about the capute:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/index.html

I learned to understand what was going on by the behavior of my two guards, the two guards that had me under custody every day. One in particular showed much attention to my desires. He was incredibly cheerful. To understand exactly what was going on I provocatively asked him if he was happy because I was going or because I was staying. ...

I experienced a strange sensation because that word evoked in me freedom but also projected in me an immense sense of emptiness. I understood that it was the most difficult moment of my kidnapping and that if everything I had just experienced until then was "certain," now a huge vacuum of uncertainty was opening, one heavier than the other.

How is spending $6 million justified if she was not in any danger at any time?

And finally (for now):

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.03.06***lesofEngage-X.gif

 

[Bodacious]

There is no way to answer when you don't care about the facts. Do you understand that? These people were not speeding and stopped for various other checkpoints. You will not sink that in you head so there is no way I can do an explaination.

So go with my hypothetical situation I posted earlier. Some facts differ from case to case, on some remain the same, that being a car gets shot up after running a checkpoint, speeding or not.

 

[KoreBolteR]

And finally (for now):

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/05.03.06***lesofEngage-X.gif

hahaha what a classic. so true. :thumbs:

 

[Bodacious]

Out of context? Can you please explain to me how that quote means anything different from your original post?

Read that post he took that quote from, page 9, post 125. I went on to say:

. What I do care about is you saying our policies are flawed and need to be fixed. I am not saying you can't have that belief, by all means, do so. But if you want to get on your soap box and complain about our policies I think you ought to offer up a solution to the problem. So:

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

 

[No Limit]

here is a blog with links about the car:

http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/03/06/sgrenas-car/

You decide. The car above wasn't shot 300-400 times.

I'm sorry, I simply don't believe this link. If you can point me to the video they are talking about. As I pointed out, the AP said the military told them the vehicle was missing; so if they reported that how could they have pictures or video? From that site:

As LGF has now noted in an update, it would appear as though the car pictured above was actually the car Sgrena was kidnapped from back in February. The video from which the image was taken was a bit misleading.

Hopefully we’ll have some images of the car that was allegedly shot up soon.

So I ask you, if nothing fishy is going on here where the hell is the car?

 

[No Limit]

Read that post he took that quote from, page 9, post 125. I went on to say:

That doesn't matter because he didn't change the meaning, that wasn't needed. The fact is, and you admitted it, that you don't care about the facts. Simple as that.

 

[No Limit]

So go with my hypothetical situation I posted earlier. Some facts differ from case to case, on some remain the same, that being a car gets shot up after running a checkpoint, speeding or not.

Try again, they did not run any check point. In fact they passed 1 check point earlier without any problems. See how facts are really important?

 

[Bodacious]

That doesn't matter because he didn't change the meaning, that wasn't needed. The fact is, and you admitted it, that you don't care about the facts. Simple as that.

The facts in regard to this whole Sgerna fiasco are what I don't care about, as I said:


What I do care about is you saying our policies are flawed and need to be fixed. I am not saying you can't have that belief, by all means, do so. But if you want to get on your soap box and complain about our policies I think you ought to offer up a solution to the problem. So:

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

 

[Bodacious]

Try again, they did not run any check point. In fact they passed 1 check point earlier without any problems. See how facts are really important?

1. Source?

2. So she says. She changes here story day to day. She also said tanks fired at her.

3. Why do believe her over our own troops?

 

[No Limit]

The facts in regard to this whole Sgerna fiasco are what I don't care about, as I said:


What I do care about is you saying our policies are flawed and need to be fixed. I am not saying you can't have that belief, by all means, do so. But if you want to get on your soap box and complain about our policies I think you ought to offer up a solution to the problem. So:

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between innocent civillians and a potential car bomb?

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between civillians and terrorists running on the streets, lets just shoot them all.

 

[No Limit]

1. Source?

2. So she says. She changes here story day to day. She also said tanks fired at her.

3. Why do believe her over our own troops?

Look at a map of Iraq with checkpoints. Notice the checkpoint where she got shot and then note she had to go through a check point to get there. I don't have time right now so if you don't find it I will post it tomorrow.

Why do believe her over our own troops?

You would be an idiot to believe the troops story 100% at this point. If there is nothing fishy where the hell is the car (I think this is the 5th time I asked without reply, seems you miss this ever time)?

 

[seinfeldrules]

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between civillians and terrorists running on the streets, lets just shoot them all.

When a car is approaching a check point, you cannot differentiate between 'civilian' and 'terrorist'. Why? Because terrorists often use innocent looking women and children to attack their targets.

 

[Bodacious]

Hey look, Here is a source saying Sgrena NEVER encountered a checkpoint.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe

``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling the prosecutors. ``We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint and we didn't understand where the shots came from.''

What do you believe now?

 

[No Limit]

Hey look, Here is a source saying Sgrena NEVER encountered a checkpoint.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe



What do you believe now?

I'll find the map along with the source tomorrow.

 

[KoreBolteR]

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between civillians and terrorists running on the streets, lets just shoot them all.

Negative!, ... they dont, thats why its so hard to fight over there, because anybody could be a terrorist, even women and children, its sick!

the terrorists want the americans to get confused and shoot civilians, resulting in anti-americans parading this around, provoking US-hatred all over the world.

 

[Bodacious]

You would be an idiot to believe the troops story 100% at this point. If there is nothing fishy where the hell is the car (I think this is the 5th time I asked without reply, seems you miss this ever time)?

I guess we have to wait for it to turn up. I agree, something is fishy, but I think the americans are telling the truth before a comunist anti-us person is.

For example:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe

``I was never treated badly,'' Sgrena told her colleagues at Manifesto upon her arrival in Rome, according to Ansa.

If she was so well off why pay $6 million for her release?

 

[Bodacious]

I'll find the map along with the source tomorrow.

You will take her word that the car wasn't speeding, but you won't take her word that she never passed through a checkpoint?

 

[No Limit]

I guess we have to wait for it to turn up. I agree, something is fishy, but I think the americans are telling the truth before a comunist anti-us person is.

Yes, lets apply communist to her on every turn to try to discredit it as if it has anything to do with it.

So you would believe our government when it is clear they are hiding something from us? Cars don't just disappear Bodacious.

Now let me ask you a question as this is also important. Do you honestly believe a special agent with years of experiance and part of the coalition forces wouldn't know to stop even after warning shots? Remember, the car was a half mile away so even if they were going around 60 MPH (extremely doubtful as it was raining) they would have at least 30 seconds to stop; that's more than enough.

 

[Bodacious]

How are our men on the ground supposed to discern between civillians and terrorists running on the streets, lets just shoot them all.

How about fire back at the ones that pose a threat? That is currently our policy and will always be.

 

[No Limit]

You will take her word that the car wasn't speeding, but you won't take her word that she never passed through a checkpoint?

No, I'm going to see if I didn't make a mistake. I like to fact check my stuff, even if I am wrong.

Also, I didn't take her word on it, I took the driver's word on it. What reason does the driver have to lie? He is certainly not part of their newspaper and so far it doesn't seem he has an agenda.

 

[No Limit]

How about fire back at the ones that pose a threat? That is currently our policy and will always be.

Obviously, as this case demonstrated, this isn't the case. At half a mile away they posed no threat.

So if a civillian is running up to a soldier for help he should be shot as there is no way to know that he is a civillian?

 

[Bodacious]

Yes, lets apply communist to her on every turn to try to discredit it as if it has anything to do with it.

Are you disputing she is a comunist?

So you would believe our government when it is clear they are hiding something from us? Cars don't just disappear Bodacious.

Considering the other factors involved, yes I believe our government over a comunist. The car is just one piece of the issue along with many others.

Now let me ask you a question as this is also important. Do you honestly believe a special agent with years of experiance and part of the coalition forces wouldn't know to stop even after warning shots? Remember, the car was a half mile away so even if they were going around 60 MPH (extremely doubtful as it was raining) they would have at least 30 sends to stop; that's more than enough.

He made a mistake somewhere, there is no doubt about that.

 

[No Limit]

Are you disputing she is a comunist?

No I am not, but please don't play stupid. You know damn well why you continue to apply that label to her. In this country we have been taught from day one that communism and communists are bad. Notice how you never applied this label when she was a hostage, she was a good woman that became a victim of terrorism back then.

The car is just one piece of the issue along with many others.

So you won't wait for an investiagaion? You just assume they are telling the truth?

He made a mistake somewhere, there is no doubt about that.

That isn't good enough. THIS GUY WAS A SPECIAL AGENT THAT WAS PART OF THE COALITION FORCES, THERE IS NO WAY HE WASN'T AWARE OF US POLICIES AT CHECKPOINTS.

So if they fired warning shots why would this guy keep going? Nobody would make a mistake like that.

Notice how these simply don't add up yet you will not admit that there is a good chance our military did something wrong here.