Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

Also, we are not in full knowledge of the facts, but I would have thought you could shoot the tyres out of the car or something, unless it had just appeared and was very close?
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Shoot out the tyres? Do u know how hard it is to even hit a tyre of a vehicle that is speeding towards u at 60 miles an hour. If you are up above it, and it is front on towards you, you cant even see the tyres. In addition, from watching car chases on TV - you will see that shooting tyres stops people eventually.....like 2 miles down the road when the rims catch fire. But not enough to stop a truckbomb before it blows up the checkpoint.

So let's stay realistic. The 'shoot the gun out of his hand' 'shoot the tyres' shoot his big toe - always gets a run. It aint that easy. Don't believe me? Go to a range and give it a try. Its hard enough to hit a stationary target - let alone one moving at speed.
 
yet the only person killed died as a result of a single shot to the temple
 
Bodacious said:
The italian who was killed paid terrorists for her release.

Now how many thousands of dollars are in the hands of terrorists? How many soldiers will die funded by the money this man gave the terrorists?

The reporter thinks they were fired upon because they paid the terrorists without letting the Americans know.
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I know of one innocent woman who will not die because of the money.

JUST BECAUSE, the US does not negotiate with terrorists to save it's citizens, does not mean other countries CANNOT. Simple fact is, they have every right to do that.
 
I know of one innocent woman who will not die because of the money.
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You do realize that every Italian is now on the chopping block, right? They will be the #1 target for terrorist kidnappings now.
 
GhostFox said:
You do realize that every Italian is now on the chopping block, right? They will be the #1 target for terrorist kidnappings now.
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What, the terrorists kidnap them in Rome?
 
I don't support the idea of "giving in" to the terrorists. I think that paying ransom money results in these people having more power when it comes to demanding things from you. The fact that a life hangs in the balance of these kinds of things makes the situation even more of a tragedy.

However, that said, they have every right to do what it takes to get their hostage back. Their decision to buy her life is just as "legitimate" as the USA's civilian death toll being brushed off as collateral damage, neither of which do much to deter terrorist influence.
 
This thing is interesting because when Iraqis are killed in these checkpoints everyone just brushes it off as "oh stupid Iraqis, they should have known to stop so they deserve it" (I won't call any names but you know who you are).

Now we have a case where these are white, english speaking people that have complete knowledge of US policy at checkpoints and they get shot at. Does anyone here actually believe these trained agents didn't know to stop? With that said there is something extremely wrong with our policy at checkpoints. Before it was blamed on 'stupid' Iraqis. This clearly isn't the case so it is safe to assume this was never the case and we need to change our policies. Too many civillians in Iraq are getting killed and the righties simply don't give a damn. This needs to change and this needs to be changed now, before more people get killed.
 
CptStern said:
yet the only person killed died as a result of a single shot to the temple
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What's your point? Of the thousands of rounds fired into Ma Parker's home when she was going to be arrested, only a single shot killed her. Thats all it takes.
 
This thing is interesting because when Iraqis are killed in these checkpoints everyone just brushes it off as "oh stupid Iraqis, they should have known to stop so they deserve it" (I won't call any names but you know who you are).

Now we have a case where these are white, english speaking people that have complete knowledge of US policy at checkpoints and they get shot at. Does anyone here actually believe these trained agents didn't know to stop? With that said there is something extremely wrong with our policy at checkpoints. Before it was blamed on 'stupid' Iraqis. This clearly isn't the case so it is safe to assume this was never the case and we need to change our policies. Too many civillians in Iraq are getting killed and the righties simply don't give a damn. This needs to change and this needs to be changed now, before more people get killed.
__________________
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How would you have any idea what's going on at checkpoints? If you could steady yourself from shaking for 10 seconds long enough to aim a rifle - you'd be spraying all over the damn place when a car came speeding towards you. Its all very well to pontificate from the comfort of your lounge room - but all the words go out the window when you have to do it for real.
 
Calanen said:
How would you have any idea what's going on at checkpoints? If you could steady yourself from shaking for 10 seconds long enough to aim a rifle - you'd be spraying all over the damn place when a car came speeding towards you. Its all very well to pontificate from the comfort of your lounge room - but all the words go out the window when you have to do it for real.
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When we do it for real? What about the Iraqi families that are killed in these checkpoints, is that not for real? Is the security of our troops enough justification for killing civillians at these checkpoints? Our military is the best trained in the world, they were sent there armed with billions of dollars worth of state of the art weaponry. The civillians they kill have absolutely no way to defend themselves and everything should be done to protect them. Remember, they didn't ask for this war, we did. There is no reason why we shouldn't adjust to prevent this type of thing from happening.
 
What, the terrorists kidnap them in Rome?
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Why not? Or anywhere else. If I was a terrorist I'd kiddnap every Italian I could find.
 
She claims about 300 rounds fired into the car?
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She would not have any idea how many rounds were fired? That
s 10 30 round mags on M16s, so 10 guys emptied their 16's into the car? Or let's say, 2 guys emptied the whole clip, and 2 more guys had belt fed ammo on a SAW. So each SAW fires 100 rounds into the car, plus two whole clips from a 16? There would be no car.... The car looks like it has not too many bullet holes in it. 300 rounds it would be swiss cheese.
 
She has actually upped it to 400 rounds now, and the terrorists who kiddnapped he apparently told her that "The Americans won't let you out of Iraq alive".

I wonder if she suffered mental damage in captivity in between her group hugs with the terrorists that she seems to miss so much.
 
Calanen said:
She would not have any idea how many rounds were fired? That
s 10 30 round mags on M16s, so 10 guys emptied their 16's into the car? Or let's say, 2 guys emptied the whole clip, and 2 more guys had belt fed ammo on a SAW. So each SAW fires 100 rounds into the car, plus two whole clips from a 16? There would be no car.... The car looks like it has not too many bullet holes in it. 300 rounds it would be swiss cheese.
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Gee, if the vehicle wasn't mysteriously lost we would know how many were fired. Since we don't have that vehicle we should take her word for it. Do you see what you are doing here? You are claiming everything she says is a lie without actually waiting until the facts come out. Our government hasn't even dispuited the 300 round claim, why are you?
 
GhostFox said:
Why not? Or anywhere else. If I was a terrorist I'd kiddnap every Italian I could find.
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The one reason I can think why not is that most of the terrorists/beheaders/kidnappers have no real means to get to Rome, from their present location in the Middle East.

And what to do with the hostage after they are captured within Italy?

Oh on the subject of terrorists being amongst us:

Al Qaeda has 200 on UK streets :| Don't know if anyone's made a post about that yet.
 
Our government hasn't even dispuited the 300 round claim, why are you?
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The official statement I read stated that the soldiers fired "several" rounds into the engine block. Until that changes, that is the most trustworthy source there is. Now I think we should wait for all investigation to be completed, but come on, 400 rounds? They would have both been swiss cheese.
 
The one reason I can think why not is that most of the terrorists/beheaders/kidnappers have no real means to get to Rome, from their present location in the Middle East.
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I was thinking of the ones already on the streets of Rome. I don't think any western nation is terrorist free.
 
obviously the terrorists have got a hand in this, this is all one big set-up, for italy and the world to hate US even more.

i think the terrorists have done a good job of doing that :(.
 
GhostFox said:
You do realize that every Italian is now on the chopping block, right? They will be the #1 target for terrorist kidnappings now.
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Oh ya, definatly. or maybe they will target the people there en masse, the ones with hundreds of thousands of troops there, the US. They kidnap who they can, and not many italians are there, at least if they are captured their government won't hang them out to dry.
 
GhostFox said:
The official statement I read stated that the soldiers fired "several" rounds into the engine block. Until that changes, that is the most trustworthy source there is. Now I think we should wait for all investigation to be completed, but come on, 400 rounds? They would have both been swiss cheese.
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I don't think they officially disputed the claim as they never gave a number. I could be wrong, will need to look in to it deeper. However, where is the vehicle so we can actually check this stuff out (latest reports say it is missing)?
 
italians arent blaming the terrorists, who are the ones that capture to kill these people in the first place...

they blame the italian government for deciding to fight terroristm in the first place.
 
GhostFox said:
The official statement I read stated that the soldiers fired "several" rounds into the engine block. Until that changes, that is the most trustworthy source there is. Now I think we should wait for all investigation to be completed, but come on, 400 rounds? They would have both been swiss cheese.
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Why is the most trustworthy source the one that has everything to hide? The one who committed murder of an innocent American Ally? I would think that the most trustworthy source would be an impartial one. The soldiers and the US must cover their ass so right now I dont think we can believe anyone. Wait until a formal Italian investigation.
 
heh, so many people are now starting to believe the U.S. targeted her. Thing is if they did then I don't think there would be such a large uproar right now simply because they would have done it in such a way that the U.S. couldn't really take the blame, like having her die from a roadside bomb.
 
The Mullinator said:
heh, so many people are now starting to believe the U.S. targeted her. Thing is if they did then I don't think there would be such a large uproar right now simply because they would have done it in such a way that the U.S. couldn't really take the blame, like having her die from a roadside bomb.
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It's not really that the US targeted her, I doubt many people actually believe that. The problem is that our policy there is so ****ed many people get killed for no reason. Before this everyone just brushed it off as "oh, the arabs are stupid as they should of stopped, so they deserve it". We now know this is not the case when this could happen to an english speaking special agents. So the policy there is clearly screwed and there is no way you can spin this to say it is the agent's fault.
 
if she got killed by the terrorists nobody would have made an uproar about it.

but now they think the americans tried to kill her, they go nuts.

im telling you all, the terrorists are a part in this, they know that news like this will make italians hate americans. and in future will force italian troops to be withdrawn.
 
KoreBolteR said:
if she got killed by the terrorists nobody would have made an uproar about it.

but now they think the americans tried to kill her, they go nuts.

im telling you all, the terrorists are a part in this, they know that news like this will make italians hate americans. and in future will force italian troops to be withdrawn.
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:smoking:

Drugs are bad.
 
No Limit said:
It's not really that the US targeted her, I doubt many people actually believe that. The problem is that our policy there is so ****ed many people get killed for no reason. Before this everyone just brushed it off as "oh, the arabs are stupid as they should of stopped, so they deserve it". We now know this is not the case when this could happen to an english speaking special agents. So the policy there is clearly screwed and there is no way you can spin this to say it is the agent's fault.
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Maybe not many believe it yet, however I have a feeling this will get alot worse:
In remarks published this week, Sgrena also said that it was possible they were targeted deliberately because the United States opposes Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers. She did not offer evidence to sustain her statement, and Rome prosecutors Franco Ionta and Pietro Saviotti, who are investigating the killing, said that there's no evidence indicating the shooting was the result of an ambush, according to news reports.
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http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1341827.html
 
No Limit said:
:smoking:

Drugs are bad.
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yeah its a shame most italians are taking this media-bullshit pill these days :p.

side affects are ignoring terrorist actions aswell. ;(
 
Maybe not many believe it yet, however I have a feeling this will get alot worse:
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I have to say I am not sure I agree with her this was deliberate and I don't think she said it was; she just said it was a possibility. Our government would know the outrage something like this would cause; there is no way in hell they could approve such a thing. However, it is extremely fishy that the vehicle they were in is missing.
 
No Limit said:
I have to say I am not sure I agree with her this was deliberate and I don't think she said it was; she just said it was a possibility. Our government would know the outrage something like this would cause; there is no way in hell they could approve such a thing. However, it is extremely fishy that the vehicle they were in is missing.
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Here are a few things she said:
Sgrena said Calipari died shielding her. She offered no evidence to support her claim that the attack was deliberate, and in an interview published in Monday's edition of the daily Corriere della Sera, she said she does not know what led to the attack.

"I believe, but it's only a hypothesis, that the happy ending to the negotiations must have been irksome," she said. "The Americans are against this type of operation. For them, war is war, human life doesn't count for much."

In separate remarks Sunday, she said: "The fact that the Americans don't want negotiations to free the hostages is known."

"The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostage, everybody knows that," she added, speaking to Sky TG24 television by telephone. "So I don't see why I should rule out that I could have been the target."
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http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050307/w030760.html
You can read it however you want but to me at least it seems like she is slowly comming to that conclusion in her head right now.

This whole thing is obviously very strange but the an actual full explanation of what happened in situations like this rarely ever gets out after the first few days. Were just going to have to sit back and wait.
 
The Mullinator said:
Here are a few things she said:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050307/w030760.html
You can read it however you want but to me at least it seems like she is slowly comming to that conclusion in her head right now.

This whole thing is obviously very strange but the an actual full explanation of what happened in situations like this rarely ever gets out after the first few days. Were just going to have to sit back and wait.
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But can you honestly blame her? This women has been through hell in the last month and then when things start to look up something like this happens. There are a lot of 'fishy' things in this so she doesn't have a reason to rule out the possibility of a deliberate attack on her. Again, I disagree with this but if I was in her shoes I certainly wouldn't rule it out as I don't think anyone else would. We really have to be careful in labeling her a liar as some on the right are trying to do. Yes, she has a reason to lie but so does our government.
 
We really have to be careful in labeling her a liar as some on the right are trying to do.
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Why are you turning this into a left vs. right debate again? You think it is only conservatives who support US troops and think that this woman might just be confused?
 
No Limit said:
But can you honestly blame her? This women has been through hell in the last month and then when things start to look up something like this happens. There are a lot of 'fishy' things in this so she doesn't have a reason to rule out the possibility of a deliberate attack on her. Again, I disagree with this but if I was in her shoes I certainly wouldn't rule it out as I don't think anyone else would. We really have to be careful in labeling her a liar as some on the right are trying to do. Yes, she has a reason to lie but so does our government.
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Ya I was thinking that. I guess I am thinking to myself that if I had been through what she has then I probably would have come out and said openly that the U.S. MUST have targeted me. I wouldn't be saying that there is a "possibility". when she says that its telling me that even after she has had a chance to start thinking about it she has begun to believe what I would consider either foolish or a result of extreme stress that would slowly start to go away rather than get worse.

Thats just me though.
 
GhostFox said:
Why are you turning this into a left vs. right debate again? You think it is only conservatives who support US troops and think that this woman might just be confused?
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No I don't think that, but I know the right are the only ones trying to destroy her. You think I'm just pulling this out of my ass because I want to start a left vs right? Go to democraticunderground.com and then to freerepublic.com and search for her name. This will prove my point. As an example (first thread under a search of her name at free republic):

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1357682/posts

One less commie. Hurray!
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She's a communist!! What do you expect!!
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She was not hit by friendly fire.

She's a communist!

Those commies love the Baathists.

She probably wasn't even kidnapped.

She went to Iraq to help raise money for the Baathist holdovers who provide arms to the insurgency of radical islamist sheeple.

Hopefully, we won't miss her next time.
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I am not trying to make this a right vs left, it already is for some stupid reason.
 
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