Italians Victims of US Friendly Fire Incident

[Calanen]

Ooo, ooo! But OMFG LIEK LOOK AT TEH DISSENT ITS TEH WRONG CAR!!1

Not.

I don't even know what is being said here. If the Americans wanted her and the driver dead, they would have machine gunned every1 in the car, and probably covered it up. The fact that they gave medical treatment to the Italian lady and did not kill her kind of makes the argument that they deliberately targetted her seem silly. Lets kill her, oh, no lets save her now....makes no sense.

The whole scenario looks to be an accident. Who was to blame for the accident (whether Italians, Americans or both) we don't yet know and may never know.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I know -- that was my original idea and still is today.

It was an accident, but people want it to be intentional, so they can say; "TEH SEE LOOK TEH BUSH AND US ARE TEH EVIL GRRR!!!!"

 

[mabufo]

They failed to stop.. if they were being chased by anyone - I am damn sure that information would have been released.

The people in the car brought their fate upon themselves. It was their error. They failed to stop, so the car was shot up. End of story. There is nothing to discuss really - I see no wrong in what the American soldiers did.

Unless information is being with-held from the public - I see no wrong in my statements. Any probelms, PM me - dont start a flame war.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Agreed.

 

[kmack]

They failed to stop.. if they were being chased by anyone - I am damn sure that information would have been released.

The people in the car brought their fate upon themselves. It was their error. They failed to stop, so the car was shot up. End of story. There is nothing to discuss really - I see no wrong in what the American soldiers did.

Unless information is being with-held from the public - I see no wrong in my statements. Any probelms, PM me - dont start a flame war.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has questioned the U.S. Army's version of events, including a claim that the car was speeding and ignored signals to stop.

Berlusconi told lawmakers Wednesday that Calipari had informed an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was heading there with a freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

uh-oh

I do.

 

[No Limit]

Aren't you the one calling on everyone to wait for an investigation to finish first? And now you are declaring conclusively that there are no bullet holes in the front of a car which pictures show only obliquly from the side?

I don't think it is clear at all if the front was shot. You talk about them not hitting the headlights, well you can only see one. The passenger side could be shot to bits. As to the bullet in the windshield, notice how low it is. A couple inches lower and it would have struck the engine block. Yet you claim this as a deliberate shot at the drivers head?

For christ sake, I don't need an investigation to know there are no bullets in that grill. Are you blind? If you see the slightest damage in that grill or anywhere in the front point it out. Here are some pictures of shot up cars by US forces:

http://blog.newstandardnews.net/iraqdispatches/falluja-shot-up-car.jpg

http://www.mppa.org/mppa/2003/NewsPicStory/nps1/pictures/NPS05.jpg

Tell me how in the hell this compares. Again, can you even point out one single bullet from that picture other than the windshield?

Also point where I said this was deliberate. However, if they were shooting for the engine block they would not have fired 1 bullet, cut the crap.

 

[kmack]

There should not be any bullet holes in that car... at all:

Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi told lawmakers Wednesday that Calipari had informed an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was heading there with a freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

 

[GhostFox]

For christ sake, I don't need an investigation to know there are no bullets in that grill. Are you blind?

Your logic is so terrible it actually astounds me. You want the US to have murdered this guy so badly you will overrule any evidence to the contrary. Stop thinking with your emotions and start using your brain.

 

[kmack]

Your logic is so terrible it actually astounds me. You want the US to have murdered this guy so badly you will overrule any evidence to the contrary. Stop thinking with your emotions and start using your brain.

Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi told lawmakers Wednesday that Calipari had informed an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was heading there with a freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

That means that A. An american officer knew about the car, its route, and its cargo. B. The car was travelling slowly as it approached the checkpoint. C. They stopped immediatly.

The resulting firing squad like execution of the Italian hero and injury of the rest of the team, seems pretty much like murder to me.

 

[No Limit]

Your logic is so terrible it actually astounds me. You want the US to have murdered this guy so badly you will overrule any evidence to the contrary. Stop thinking with your emotions and start using your brain.

Before you make these stupid claims please point me to one other bullet hole other than the one in the windshield. I am using pure logic, you are thinking on a partisan level.

 

[GhostFox]

Before you make these stupid claims please point me to one other bullet hole other than the one in the windshield.

I will as soon as you can show me close up pictures of the car from multiple angles so that can be determined. Otherwise, we have no possible way to determine where the shots struck the car.

you are thinking on a partisan level

How is that? I don't even know how this issue could be partisan, and I'm not even sure which side you think I am supposedly on.

 

[kmack]

Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi told lawmakers Wednesday that Calipari had informed an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was heading there with a freed hostage. He said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

• An american offiver knew about the car, its route, and its cargo
• the car was travelling slowly as it approached the checkpoint
• It stopped immediatly once the lights flased at them

There should not be a single bullet in that car.

 

[GhostFox]

That means that A. An american officer knew about the car, its route, and its cargo. B. The car was travelling slowly as it approached the checkpoint. C. They stopped immediatly.

The resulting firing squad like execution of the Italian hero and injury of the rest of the team, seems pretty much like murder to me.

His story is correct why? The Italians have a strong reason to lie, the US has none really, so why do you automatically beleive them?

 

[kmack]

His story is correct why? The Italians have a strong reason to lie, the US has none really, so why do you automatically beleive them?

the only US people who know what happened are the men at the checkpoint. The ones who murdered an ally under suspicious circumstances. If you do not believe that is a good reason to lie, then....

 

[No Limit]

His story is correct why? The Italians have a strong reason to lie, the US has none really, so why do you automatically beleive them?

Why would they lie? They are our allies. Are you not aware that Italy has the 3rd largest presence in Iraq?

When they agree with us they are one of the greatest countries on earth, when they don't agree they are a bunch of lying scum. Which is it?

 

[GhostFox]

The ones who murdered an ally under suspicious circumstances

Nice to see that you have convicted them of murder from the start.

The US official report still seems by far the most logical and accurate. Until an investigation is completed, anyone who is positive the US murdered that guy has obviously forgotten how to use their brain. Stop thinking about things you wish were true, and start looking at the facts.

 

[kmack]

Why would they lie? They are our allies. Are you not aware that Italy has the 3rd largest presence in Iraq?

exactly! and with involvement harshly opposed by the majority of the italian people, and being the focus of major political attacks, the PM would do anything to justify this killing. It's common sense,, which is why he can't understand it

 

[No Limit]

Nice to see that you have convicted them of murder from the start.

The US official report still seems by far the most logical and accurate. Until an investigation is completed, anyone who is positive the US murdered that guy has obviously forgotten how to use their brain. Stop thinking about things you wish were true, and start looking at the facts.

You mean the report that says they fired at the engine block? Doesn't seem like it is very logical from those pictures.

 

[kmack]

Nice to see that you have convicted them of murder from the start.

What is it called when you kill someone? Murder.

They killed someone, making them...... murderers.

not to mention they were innocent US allies returning with a WOMAN whom the rescued.

 

[GhostFox]

Why would they lie?

According to reports, Berlusconi was embaressed about ransoming the reporter that he did not tell US forces about the mission.

Therefore, people will blame him for the man's death if it turns out that is true. In order to deflect the blame, the only thing he can do is claim that he did tell US officials.

He has much more reason to lie now, then the US had to murder some Italian intelligence agent for no reason.

 

[kmack]

According to reports, Berlusconi was embaressed about ransoming the reporter that he did not tell US forces about the mission.

source?

 

[No Limit]

I will as soon as you can show me close up pictures of the car from multiple angles so that can be determined. Otherwise, we have no possible way to determine where the shots struck the car.



How is that? I don't even know how this issue could be partisan, and I'm not even sure which side you think I am supposedly on.

There is a bullet on the right side of the winshield that had to go to the left to hit a target in the back and miss the driver. That means the soldiers were on the right side of the car and not seeing the other side makes no difference. To support this the front right tire is shot out. There are no bullets on the other side; if this was the case the AP would have taken pictures of the other side. So again, point out a single bullet other than the one in the windshield. Saying I can't see all of the car won't fly.

 

[GhostFox]

What is it called when you kill someone? Murder.

No...actually it is called murder only when you murder someone. You can also have accidents among other things.

You mean the report that says they fired at the engine block? Doesn't seem like it is very logical from those pictures.

You came to that conclusion how? The only bullet hole you can see appears to have been fired at the engine block.

 

[GhostFox]

Come on....be honest. With this terrible logic you guys are using you are just trying to get into Club 75, right?

 

[No Limit]

You came to that conclusion how? The only bullet hole you can see appears to have been fired at the engine block.

Are you listening to yourself? If they were firing at the engine block would they have fired one shot? Come on ghostfox, its like arguing with a 5 year old.

 

[kmack]

According to reports, Berlusconi was embaressed about ransoming the reporter that he did not tell US forces about the mission.

so i take it you don't have a source.

Just making things up to suit your argument.

I am honestly shocked.

 

[GhostFox]

Come on ghostfox, its like arguing with a 5 year old.

Must be nice. I have to argue with a severely retarded 5 year old.

 

[kmack]

Must be nice. I have to argue with a severely retarded 5 year old.

okay, both of you, keep it on topic

 

[No Limit]

Must be nice. I have to argue with a severely retarded 5 year old.

:rolling:

Ok whatever, this is a waste of time. Yes, to disable the car they only fired 1 shot as obviously 1 5.56mm round would do the trick.

Oh no, wait, they fired from the other side and we can't see it even though the bullet clearly travelled from left to right which is why the right tire is shot out. :rolling: Then the AP, not wanting a good story, decided to take pictures of the other side.

Weren't you the one that said I wasn't using logic?

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

A little visualization for you.

 

[GhostFox]

Oh no, wait, they fired from the other side and we can't see it even though the bullet clearly travelled from left to right which is why the right tire is shot out. Then the AP, not wanting a good story, decided to take pictures of the other side.

Weren't you the one that said I wasn't using logic?

I hate to break this to you buddy, but the checkpoints usually have people stationed on BOTH sides of the road.

 

[No Limit]

I hate to break this to you buddy, but the checkpoints usually have people stationed on BOTH sides of the road.

Then why did the AP no take pictures of the other side? Did they want to show the less shot up side to get a crappier story?

 

[GhostFox]

Then why did the AP no take pictures of the other side? Did they want to show the less shot up side to get a crappier story?

It was probably the only shot the person could get. I don't think this was some pre-arranged photo shoot.

 

[No Limit]

It was probably the only shot the person could get. I don't think this was some pre-arranged photo shoot.

You mean he couldn't walk around the truck with his camera eventhough the troops let him get on top of the truck to get the close up shot? Come on, listen to yourself.

 

[GhostFox]

You mean he couldn't walk around the truck with his camera eventhough the troops let him get on top of the truck to get the close up shot? Come on, listen to yourself.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just let it go man. Wait and see if there are more bullet holes. Stop jumping to conclusions.

 

[No Limit]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just let it go man. Wait and see if there are more bullet holes. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Ok, I don't know what I am talking about even though you haven't been able to dispute anything. Your main argument is that we can't see the whole car, well yes, we can see enough to know they were not shooting at the engine block. You are ignoring all logic to try to defend what the troops did when there is a dead hero in a grave somewhere.

 

[GhostFox]

we can see enough to know they were not shooting at the engine block.

Again, the only bullet hole we can clearly see appears to have been fired at the engine block, so your logic really confuses me.

You are ignoring all logic to try to defend what the troops did when there is a dead hero in a grave somewhere.

All I have said is that we should wait for an investigation before jumping to these conclusions.

 

[No Limit]

Again, the only bullet hole we can clearly see appears to have been fired at the engine block, so your logic really confuses me.

I don't know how you get that the bullet that hit the windshield and killed someone was fired at the engine block. And stop with this crap already as you didn't address my point on a number of occassions, why would they only fire 1 round to disable it? Have you ever heard of an engine stopping because of one 5.56mm round? If you have please post a source as I sure as hell haven't.

All I have said is that we should wait for an investigation before jumping to these conclusions

No, you said Italy was lying. I am waiting for an investigation to but you are dismissing any possibilty of the US making a mistake eventhough the current evidance clearly shows they did.

 

[fizzlephox]

The US doesn't make mistakes, they correct them! :sniper:

But you're right about Ghostfox, he came right out and said in an earlier post that the problem was obviously the fault of the Italian driver and not the American troops, even though he only used speculation like everyone else to come to a conclusion. So everyone should just wait for an investigation.

 

[GhostFox]

I don't know how you get that the bullet that hit the windshield and killed someone was fired at the engine block.

Look at the picture closely. The bullet was fired at a moving vehicle an clearly went a few inches high. If you were shooting at people in the car you wouldn't shoot that low, and since people usually shoot high rather then low, the most logical assumption is that the bullet was fired at the engine.

why would they only fire 1 round to disable it?

I think more bullets were fired, but we won't know until we can see more of the car.

No, you said Italy was lying

No, I said the PM had greater motive to lie, which is true. I also said we should wait for an investigation to complete before jumping to conclusions. I am 90% certain from the facts we have now that this was a terrible accident, but I am more then willing to wait for an investigation before passing judgement. Unlike others around here.

 

[CptStern]

The US doesn't make mistakes, they correct them! :sniper:
.

so this was deliberate?