It's here. Many of you are going to prison.

[Saturos]

First person shooters are simulated manslaughter and genocide for people too afraid to do it in real life.

It's just every time I think about doing it for real, my hands start to tremble. When I'm gripping that mouse, it's steady.

It's steady.

I think it's because you know you wouldn't survive long in prison Raz. Tiny would mash you into cowburger. :cheese:

 

[Krynn72]

Thought Crimes imminent.

 

[Darkside55]

I had actually written a long and well-thought out response to all of this, but my laptop is an overheating, random restarting piece of shit that completely ate my response and I don't feel up to typing it again. So, short form:

Words and drawings aren't real. No victim. Stupid law.

 

[VirusType2]

America is far too ... stuck up? to allow this sort of drawing to circulate. This isn't Amsterdam, where shit's coo. However, I would think as long as it was kept out of retail then it would be more tolerated. Like if you drew them yourself or whatever. And the penalty does not fit the crime.

 

[arch5]

BUT DARKSIDE! IT'S INTERNET PORN AND UH AND ITS UM BADDD!!!!! IT CAN HURT PPLS FEELINGS AND I DUNT LIKE IT!

-Quoted directly from the dickhead who thought of that law.

 

[Saturos]

Years ago in my 5th grade class, (1995) my class was doing an anatomy project, drawing posters with all the major organs with the outline of the human body. (classmate lies on poster and someone else draws an outline)

I got in trouble for drawing a penis on the poster in my group. True story.

 

[Krynn72]

I got in trouble for drawing a penis on the poster in my group. True story.

20 years in prison for you.

 

[Saturos]

20 years in prison for you.

Oh well.

 

[Kyorisu]

Why am I not suprised?

 

[Vegeta897]

I'm not surprised because I saw this story on Sankaku like weeks ago.

 

[Darkside55]

Visiting Sankaku should be a crime.

The victim is you, the viewer.

 

[Viperidae]

What does that even mean.

 

[Vegeta897]

It means Darkside can't handle a little ecchi in his news.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

If I stab you and you stain the sofa, it's the leprechaun's birthday.

 

[Raziaar]

Years ago in my 5th grade class, (1995) my class was doing an anatomy project, drawing posters with all the major organs with the outline of the human body. (classmate lies on poster and someone else draws an outline)

I got in trouble for drawing a penis on the poster in my group. True story.

When I was a kid, I used to draw images of tattered and burnt American flags on my desk. It was fun to draw, and they looked cool because it was like the flag survived an explosive battle and was still there.

Today I would have been charged with international terrorism and I would be considered in cahoots with Osama Bin Laden himself.

Or at the very least, anti-american. Heh.

 

[Ennui]

I'm not quite sure why, but this seems really out of character.

I think it makes sense as Ennui holds strong opinions on plenty of subjects (damn straight). But I do think it's out of logical step with the rest of yo' politics, dude. Since when did you subscribe the wisdom of repugnance?

That statement only applies to Vegeta (or anyone) if their response to this question is yes:

So Veg, are you sexually aroused by "drawings" of pre-teen children?

This is because I feel that it is literally impossible for someone to dissociate sexual arousal caused by loli with sexual arousal caused by child porn - they're sides of the same coin, even if loli is somewhat softer and less outrageous. I also think that sexual arousal at children is very, very morally wrong because it can influence people to act on that desire, which in my opinion is one of the most awful ****ed up things you can do (completely destroying a child's innocence etc). Thus I strongly feel that if someone recognizes and accepts rather than fights/denies such a compulsion or attraction they're very much in the wrong and therefore are a vile shithead. I'm not saying that people can't be aroused by loli and/or child porn and control it / not ever act on it, which makes them essentially harmless, I just highly disapprove.

However I do believe in freedom anyway and so I think people should be allowed to have loli (but definitely not actual child porn) if they want, and think/feel/fantasize about whatever they please. I just think it's reprehensible to allow yourself to be attracted to that. If I found it remotely arousing (which thank god I don't) I would NOT nurture that tendency - quite the opposite.

That being said I think most people are or can be vile shitheads in one way or another (including myself, although hopefully someday I'll have eliminated all of that). Doesn't necessarily mean I can't associate or be friends with them, so long as I hold my ground in situations where I find it important. I like Pressure and Vegeta both fine even if I am a bit repulsed by their interest in loli.

 

[Tollbooth Willie]

I agree with Darkside. EVERY NIGHT IN STEAM CHAT ITS ****ING SANCOCK WITH YOU DEVIN.

Oh lol sancock with you sounds sorta like Sankaku lolololol.

 

[mortiz-Redux]

20 years in prison for you.

It's only prison if he'd masturbated over it.

DID YOU MASTURBATE OVER IT SATUROS YOU FILTHY HO?

 

[VirusType2]

I also think that sexual arousal at children is very, very morally wrong

Sexual arousal is nature doing it's thing. There are no morals involved.

Thus I strongly feel that if someone recognizes and accepts rather than fights/denies such a compulsion or attraction they're very much in the wrong and therefore are a vile shithead.

No, because in denial/repression they become priests. I wouldn't let my child out of my sight around any man, especially a repressed ... church overlord that gains the trust of masses of people by claiming to be closer to god.

Being attracted to someone does not seal your fate whether you would ever rape them. I'm sure you don't go out and rape people that you are attracted to.

You see, there is a world of difference between being attracted to something and raping it. Do any of our friends here seem like the type that have children in the cellar, despite vocally favoring lolicon?

I'm not saying that people can't be aroused by loli and/or child porn and control it / not ever act on it, which makes them essentially harmless, I just highly disapprove.

You know being attracted to a child just about to start puberty makes a lot of sense scientifically, evolutionally, not to mention that they are designed to be at the peak of beauty. I'm not attracted to them, but I think kids are really cute. Think about it, if kids were ugly, nobody would want them, not even their parents.

It makes a lot more sense to me than some other sexual attractions, like necrophilia; though I might still rise to support these people as well if it was someone I cared about with the attraction. I certainly wouldn't want them murdering people or even digging up corpses. Would you suspect that they would, because of their attraction?

See that's the thing, I suspect there is a separate part of the mind that dictates what you are attracted to from the part that dictates whether you could be a murderer or a rapist, thankfully. If it wasn't, then all of these millions or even billions of teenagers addicted to killing people in video games would be doing it in reality.

However I do believe in freedom anyway and so I think people should be allowed to have loli (but definitely not actual child porn)

Well, do not mistake where I'm coming from, I am not in support of child pornography, and I don't like the drawings of it either, but I'd rather these people sitting at their desk for hours drawing out their fantasy (or looking at drawings) and getting it out like some pent up demons rather than spending their time trying to make it a reality with actual children.

I just think it's reprehensible to allow yourself to be attracted to that. If I found it remotely arousing (which thank god I don't) I would NOT nurture that tendency - quite the opposite.

It's nigh impossible to be attracted to something your not, or to stop being attracted to something that you are. Every adult knows that.

My suggestion is that these people should try to put themselves around people of approximately their own age, and seek companionship with them, whether they are initially attracted to them or not. With strong love comes a different kind of attraction that will erode lust, even to the point where it can actually eradicate it.

 

[Danimal]

I'm still waiting for the day Cyberpitz appears on Dateline: 'To Catch A Predator'

He has to act the same as how he does drunk on TF2, otherwise I wouldn't bother watching it.

 

[Ennui]

It's interesting how you managed to pretend like you were arguing with me when every point you make is something I acknowledge and take into account in my post. Having such an attraction does undeniably increase one's chances of becoming a child rapist because there are no child rapists who aren't sexually aroused by children. However I clearly stated that I don't believe having that attraction means that you're going to become a child rapist or ever act on your sexual desire. I also believe that in cases of pedophilia or necrophilia or rape fantasies or whatever by indulging in that desire through fantasies or porn or whatever definitely nurtures and grows that desire - although, it could also be true that attempting to ignore or repress it makes it worse as well. Either way you're not on the other side of the fence from me on this one so I'm bemused by your extensive quoting and response.

Also comparing sexual desires to video games is silly. Loli and/or child pornography evokes sexual fantasy and excitement - I love video games but I don't fantasize about killing people, because video games aren't about the thrill of killing, they're about competition.

 

[VirusType2]

It's interesting how you managed to pretend like you were arguing with me when every point you make is something I acknowledge and take into account in my post.

Just real quick, I did originally write that I agree with most of what you wrote. But I thought it sounded stupid to say it, so I removed it. Only reason I quoted you so much was because you are the only one talking about it. Separating the quotes lets me address specific parts.

Also comparing sexual desires to video games is silly. Loli and/or child pornography evokes sexual fantasy and excitement - I love video games but I don't fantasize about killing people, because video games aren't about the thrill of killing, they're about competition.

So a rape game (including competition) is cool then right? I don't initially have a big problem with it myself, though I'd have to see one to understand.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Personally I couldn't give a rat's ass what people jerk off to, as long as they don't act on it, but I have a hard time advocating censorship of any victimless media outlet. There's no evidence to suggest that those who get off on that sort of thing inevitably act on it--in fact, there's a fair amount suggesting it has the opposite effect.

I should also mention it's certainly not my thing and I can't help but be repulsed by it (loli, that is).

I also believe that in cases of pedophilia or necrophilia or rape fantasies or whatever by indulging in that desire through fantasies or porn or whatever definitely nurtures and grows that desire

Now this I disagree with, there's quite a bit of evidence to the contrary out there in terms of psychological/psychoanalytical research. Hell, even Freud oh so many years ago said that there are people who inevitably harbor dangerous perversions, and that acknowledging those sorts of things as opposed to oppressing them are more likely to negate the chances of dangerous behavior.

 

[VirusType2]

I agree. When I'm single and if I didn't have porn (or something) to look at, I'd be out there on the street checking people out and trying to get with someone. We don't want that for the pedos. Children are too vulnerable.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Just to be play a bit of devil's advocate though, I do think there's a line somewhere that needs to be drawn, I'm just not sure where that line should be and I'm glad it's not my decision to make.

 

[VirusType2]

lol I see what you did there.... A line somewhere that should be drawn? Lol

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I actually realized that was a bit punny as I was typing it and almost acknowledged it.

 

[Ennui]

Just real quick, I did originally write that I agree with most of what you wrote. But I thought it sounded stupid to say it, so I removed it. Only reason I quoted you so much was because you are the only one talking about it. Separating the quotes lets me address specific parts.

Ah that's fair, makes more sense that way

So a rape game (including competition) is cool then right? I don't initially have a big problem with it myself, though I'd have to see one to understand.

That doesn't necessarily follow my logic, since a rape game would almost certainly be made to (and played to) address rape fantasies, since that's the appeal of such a game. I guess if it had a really fun and engaging multiplayer game mechanic that gave it appeal beyond the vicarious act of rape that could be true. However I think you'd be hard pressed to find such a game. FPSes on the other hand very rarely are intended to be vicarious murder simulators (although there are exceptions) and their main appeal is, like I said, competition or storyline.

Now this I disagree with, there's quite a bit of evidence to the contrary out there in terms of psychological/psychoanalytical research. Hell, even Freud oh so many years ago said that there are people who inevitably harbor dangerous perversions, and that acknowledging those sorts of things as opposed to oppressing them are more likely to negate the chances of dangerous behavior.

Yeah, I'm not sure where I fall on this subject. It's definitely true that some people have urges or compulsions towards violence, rape, child molestation or whatever that they are not remotely responsible for or even necessarily in control of, and in that case fantasy could be helpful because they could indulge that unavoidable desire without actually acting on it. On the other hand, for people who are "normal" sexually, it is absolutely possible to cultivate abnormal sexual desires. It's complicated as hell because it has to do with both genetic/psychological factors out of an individual's control and with their life experiences and personal direction. Either way those behaviors should absolutely not be condoned, and the perversions driving them should be kept incognito simply because it is not culturally healthy to accept this sort of thing; culture has a far greater impact on the individual psyche than you might expect and it would only grow were we to accept and/or condone deviant sexual behaviors that could develop into unacceptable behavior.

I don't know where to draw the line either, though, because a certain amount of sexual deviation and exploration is arguably healthy, and it's not really for anyone to say where that line is (beyond the obvious: if you're raping children or anyone for that matter you've gone way too far). It's just my personal opinion and judgment that when it comes to pedophilia in particular it should NOT be accepted, condoned, or given approval in ANY WAY beyond mere acknowledgment of such a desire's existence.

 

[VirusType2]

Either way those behaviors should absolutely not be condoned, and the perversions driving them should be kept incognito simply because it is not culturally healthy to accept this sort of thing; culture has a far greater impact on the individual psyche than you might expect and it would only grow were we to accept and/or condone deviant sexual behaviors that could develop into unacceptable behavior.

I don't know where to draw the line either, though, because a certain amount of sexual deviation and exploration is arguably healthy, and it's not really for anyone to say where that line is (beyond the obvious: if you're raping children or anyone for that matter you've gone way too far). It's just my personal opinion and judgment that when it comes to pedophilia in particular it should NOT be accepted, condoned, or given approval in ANY WAY beyond mere acknowledgment of such a desire's existence.

Well, we are being pretty general about children without specifying their age whatsoever.

Anyway, in many (even prominent) countries, children can marry very young, even at ages as low as 7 years old.

The Prophet Muhammad himself was married to a 9 year old. There's even a book about it, though it's censored/banned in the US and UK (if not elsewhere)

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=o...q=Mohammed+child+bride&spell=1&fp=285LlMnhyJ8


No but see that's the thing, personally I don't think it's abnormal any more than same sex attraction. Anyone who has studied this sort of thing would see that nature likes to throw a curve every now and then.

 

[Sparta]

Its quite an unusual argument to say that pornography depicting children having sex should be legal because there are no children getting hurt. To say that there's no victims doesn't make it any less sick.

After all, it's still pornography.

Depicting children.

Having sex.

It's definitely wrong, regardless of whether or not actual children are being abused. The funny thing is, even though i think its wrong it does seem silly to send someone to jail for looking at or owning drawings. If there is actual proof that the distribution of this kind of stuff contributes to child abuse (as is the case with child porn) then I'd say they should definitely be sent to jail. That's probably the kind of logic the judge used to come to his decision.

On the other hand, there was a case in Australia in the last year where a guy was sent a picture of the Simpsons ****ing each other as (presumably) part of a sick joke. He was convicted of possessing child porn. That's just stupid.

No but see that's the thing, personally I don't think it's abnormal any more than same sex attraction. Anyone who has studied this sort of thing would see that nature likes to throw a curve every now and then.

I don't believe this. There are examples all throughout the animal kingdom of species being attracted to the same sex, but I've never heard examples of pedophilia throughout the animal kingdom.

 

[ríomhaire]

I don't believe this. There are examples all throughout the animal kingdom of species being attracted to the same sex, but I've never heard examples of pedophilia throughout the animal kingdom.

Well, it's anecdotal evidence but we have this!

Before we had my youngest boy cat (Cloudy) neutered, he started mounting not only our younger girl cat, but my older boy cat (Butters).
Butters was not happy. Perhaps Cloudy is a little bi-curious.

 

[Darkside55]

This is because I feel that it is literally impossible for someone to dissociate sexual arousal caused by loli with sexual arousal caused by child porn - they're sides of the same coin, even if loli is somewhat softer and less outrageous

This was something I touched on in that reply that got erased. The general public has a very hard time distinguishing fantasy from reality; that is, if a person is sexually attracted to something in fantasy, they will be attracted to it in real life. Hence why these precautionary laws, despite their obvious infringements on rights and the fact that they do not actually protect anyone, are popular: they're preventative laws. They are laws that suppose a future victim.

"That person likes drawings of minors. Hence, s/he must find actual minors attractive, and if given the chance may act on his/her impulses."

Given the Whorley case, the man had actual child pornography. It was clear that he was a pedophile. He might have never acted on his impulses, but the possession of child pornography was a clear indication that he was sexually aroused by real children. And with regard to real child pornography there is a clear victim, and thus being in possession of it should definitely be a prosecuted crime.

If you look at the last link in the Whorley story, there was another link about a man named Handley (why do they both have such ironic names?) who was a collector of lolicon manga. He had other types of manga, but apparently he had enough lolicon to get him put in jail. His lawyer told him to take the plea agreement of 15 years in prison because, "there was no way a jury would acquit him if they saw the images." This man had no real cp. He had not one picture of a real minor. He was put away for drawings, and his lawyer could not have argued the case because the jury would not have seen the difference.

Which is the same stance Ennui is taking.

And this is a problem because, I can't say how many people it's true for, but some people just like loli/shota and not actual children. Not even a little bit. In fact, to paraphrase an anonymous whose words stuck with me:

"Loli is exaggerated, because real little girls aren't sexually attractive at all.

Loli is hot.

Real little girls are pig disgusting."

Given, it's likely a minority. I've seen far creepier stances on the issue, and the defenses of actual pedophiles. But I always liked those words because they're true for some people. A depiction of a child is not a child. Children are not sexy to most people. Most people look at children and don't see anything sexual about them. These kinds of people can like loli/shota too.

So they might never be inclined to look at cp, or even feel disgusted by it and the purveyors of child pornography, they might hate actual pedophiles, but then might go ahead and read some loli manga, because it isn't the same thing, despite what the majority might think.

I guess it's kinda like how women always have those fantasies about being raped, but nobody actually wants to be raped, and the thought of actual rape is scary to them. Turned on by fantasy, repulsed by reality. Because the two, in effect, are not actually the same thing--one is an exaggeration of certain aspects that trigger sexual arousal.

The other is, y'know, BEING RAPED.

 

[Dodo]

Only in america ... and Australia...
... I hope.

-dodo

 

[Darkside55]

Also Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Ireland, and the Philippines.

That last one on the list is especially retarded because the age of consent in the Philippines is 12.

 

[VirusType2]

there are no child rapists who aren't sexually aroused by children.

Well you know that's not true. There are different reasons people rape. Besides consenting (yet statutory) rape, some do it because they are attracted to that person, some do it out of anger or for control, but I've heard that people can rape people and animals they aren't even attracted to at all. Taking part in or watching the act of forced sex turns them on in a way. That's why a lot of studies indicate that rape is an act of violence and nothing more.

 

[Dodo]

I think they wont enforce it at all, unless they want to **** someone over and have nothing except some manga's to arrest him for.

And lol @ the Philippines having that law ; D

-dodo

 

[Darkside55]

I think they wont enforce it at all, unless they want to **** someone over and have nothing except some manga's to arrest him for.

The US already did.

 

[VirusType2]

Like I said in another thread, some guy in Virginia printed out some lolicon on a printer at a public library and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. I guess he would serve half that on good behavior.

He had said that he was trying to give up looking at the real thing by using the drawings as a substitute. The judge said it was an obscene image depicting a child. End of.

He had planned to appeal but dunno what happened after that. Shit was on wikipedia when I was trying to find out what the hell lolicon was.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Darkside said most of what I wanted to.

Some people said that they're not sure where to draw the line. I may be looking at this too simply, but it seems clear to me. The line goes between fantasy and reality. The law should only come into play when there is a victim. In a fantasy there is no victim. Now perhaps loli will never be socially acceptable, and that's another matter. People don't have to like it. But fining and imprisoning people for writing and drawing is horrific.

Also, I have fantasised many times about raping someone. And although the competitive aspect of games is certainly fun for me, I absolutely play them because I like to act out killings without consequence.

 

[Vegeta897]

If I found it remotely arousing (which thank god I don't) I would NOT nurture that tendency - quite the opposite.

Well this is just a ridiculous thing to say. You have no idea how you would act if you were a pedophile or at the very least were attracted to loli art. You can't just say things like this. I'm sure if I were in your shoes I'd probably think the same thing "oh man if I was a pedo I'd totally suppress it and try to change myself" but it just doesn't work that way.