Izzies storm aid ship headed for Gaza

[unozero]

I tell you what if they end up killing another U.S citizen this weekend there better be some consequences from the Obama Admin.

 

[No Limit]

All Hamas and her cronies have to do is stop lobbing rockets at Israel and demanding it's destruction. Simples.

Right Israel is innocent. That's why they won't release the tapes they have showing what really happened.

Are you really that simple minded? Hamas = Bad. Israel = good?

 

[T-6000]

I tell you what if they end up killing another U.S citizen this weekend there better be some consequences from the Obama Admin.

Probably not. The U.S. Government's 'bond' to the Israeli government is unshakable no matter what. And it seems like alot of Americans are still supportive of Israel, both online and in my local area too. There have been many I have spoken with who think that all of Palestine belongs to Israel, that Israel has a right to it because it was promised to them in the bible. I am not kidding, this is what they told me. And I've had more than one person tell me that we should nuke the entire Middle East. Also online, people have actually cheered on the death of the Turkish American man. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. If Chinese Soldiers, Russian Soldiers, Iranian soldiers, or any other foreign soldiers shot and killed that american there would have been screams for blood. The whole country would have been in an uproar. It hasn't really been easy to accept that if an IDF soldier shot and killed me people would accept it, and some would even cheer it on.

Another Aid boat is heading to Gaza, the "Rachel Coorie", named after an american ran over by an Israeli bulldozer (and people cheered on, saying she deserved it). We'll see what happens with that aid boat in a few days.

 

[unozero]

That's because the majority of Americans are brainwashed not to mention the biblical weight the state of Israel has with Christians.

 

[Baserape>]

Right Israel is innocent. That's why they won't release the tapes they have showing what really happened.

Are you really that simple minded? Hamas = Bad. Israel = good?

Hamas = terrorists. Israel = Democratic. Yes I'm that simple minded.

 

[Nuada]

Hamas = Democratically elected.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Yet it leads back to the San Remo memorandum again as justification and I've already pointed out that that is highly disputable.

Perhaps, but it is, none the less, being put foreward by a neutral legal expert.

Yet this still doesn't fit in with the narrative they presented, because a number of witnesses that have been released say Israel fired before they boarded. You can look this up for yourself here, but here's just one link of many.

...

Pretty hard to debate that.

Well, one could debate the reliability of the whitnesses, which is what you've been doing for all the Israeli reports. Both sides in this action have an agenda and I very much doubt that either is telling the whole truth.

The examples I've quoted throughout demonstrate that this kind of action is typical of the IDF regardless of whether there was is immediate threat or not, what makes you think they'd raise the restrictions on the ROE while they're "defending their waters" from perceived hostile threats? It's a foregone conclusion that'd at least be operating under the same ROE as they do in Palestine, after all, they never gave a damn about any foreign protestors in Palestine, why would they give a shit about foreign protestors trying to run through their blockade? To think otherwise is just intellectually dishonest.

The fact that they were deployed with less-lethal weapons. The fact that the ships had indeed been checked by Turkish customs prior to leaving port, so it would be very unlikley that there would be firearms or explosives on board, the fact this was carried out against "peace protesters", the fact that lethal force was not used on any of the other vessels.

A rather different operational environment to a hostile terrirtory where anyone might have a bomb or firearm hidden under thier jacket.

Congratulations! You're officially an apologist for fascist murderers!

Understanding why something is done is not at all the same as condoning it. Something making sense doesn't make it right. To have a chance at resolving (or at least transforming it to a peaceful conflict) the conflict it is vital to understand the motivations and mind set of the conflicting parties. It is very easy, and completely ****ing useless to say "these people are insane murders whos policies make no sense!". Now, they very well might be in any given conflict but getting on your high horse and handing down judgement solves nothing.

If you do this you usually simply reinforce thier opinions of the outside world of not understanding and making no attempt to understand thier situation or worse, perceving it as agression - such as caused the problems in Myanmar a few years back when certain people had been calling for a military effort to oust the Tatmadaw and more importantly had been writing articles about it.

When Cyclone Nargis hit in '08 US, British and French warships were dispatched to bring aid to the victims. Now the Tatmadaw didn't quite see it like that - they percieved it as an invasion force, so they sent thier troops into defensive positions around key areas, such as Rangoon and Naypyidaw rather than using them to aid the victims of the cyclone. They also blockaded forgien aid for a period and refused any militarily delivered aid (even when they were offered having at least one Burmese army observer on every helicopter delivering the aid and observers on the ships they were flying from).

The situation was made even worse when the French suggested that the principle of the Responsibility To Protect (R2P) should be invoked to deliver the aid, by force if necessary.

Now, on the face of it, to us in the west this response makes no sense - how could one confuse the delivery of aid with an invasion fleet? Well, look at it through the eyes of those who hold power in the Junta. Two countries that have been continually critical of your government and have imposed sanctions upon it now have warships (and in the case of the US, an entire carrier group led by the USS Essex) off your coast and are demanding access to your state. They are doing this after your country has suffered a major crisis and when it is about to undertake a referendum on a new constitution. One is even suggesting invoking R2P to authorise military intervention.

If you're a Burmese general who's paramount concern is maintaining the integrity of the state and control of the government to end the bloody civil war that has raged in your country since indipendence this is not an unreasonable leap to make, especailly when a country that describes your state as "an outpost of tyranny", imposes sanctions against it and people within said country have called for military action to depose your government.

I don't think the Tatmadaw made the right decision (as it massivly impeeded the relief effort in the wake of Nargis and cost at least thousands of lives, possibly tens of thousands), but I understand why they thought like they did and why it made sense to them.

And once you know why it makes sense to them you can start coming up with a way to deal with it more effectivly next time and, hopefully, effect a strategy to change thier mind set to avoid such a situation entirely.

Not at all. That form of logic you were using before to justify the IDF's ROE is the same form of logic used to justify the Tatmadaw's actions. The end result is supplying an excuse to shot unarmed civilians that are neither provoking nor threatening. You're using the size and population of Palestine and Gaza and small population of Israel compared to surrounding nations as an excuse to allow the IDF to ultimately murder any unarmed civilian that they perceive as threat, regardless of whether they are or not.

I'm not justifying, I'm explaining.

While it's certainly disputable their may have been a hostile element on board the ship, it's known for certain that not everyone on board the Mavi Mamara was associated or hostile so it can't honestly be presumed that everyone who fought back was attempting to kill the IDF and not simply defend themselves.

The Mavi Marmara is a big ship, the casualties appear to have been contained to the top deck where the troops landed, where there was a mob waiting for them. I'd say anyone who's hanging about in such a location with knives, clubs, etc is probably spoiling for a fight. Especially if your accusations of the Israelis attacking first are accurate - anyone else would have run for cover.

Either way, they wouldn't have tried to beat them to death/defend themselves if the IDF hadn't put them in a situation where they were forced to scavenge weapons from the ship in fear for their lives.

Why did those on this one ship fear for thier lives when those on the others apparently did not, or at least did not react in a remotley comparible fashion.

They opened fire before boarding the ship, I've stated this several times now as multiple witnesses have come out and said they were shot at from the helicopters before the IDF boarded them. If that's the case (and I believe the witnesses over the IDF for reasons I shouldn't have to point out by now) it wasn't an act of self-defense on the behalf of the IDF, it was an attack by the IDF and the protestors were justified in defending themselves.

You don't let a killer free because their victim fought back before they were killed. If this was the case and the IDF fired first, they are at fault.

Which is why an imparital investigation is required - the "if"s need to be removed. Secondly, your example is not compatible with this situation - this is largely a question of what the RoE the commandos were operating under does and does not allow.

Certainly, yet all of the released protestors (who were released because I presume they weren't the violent or extremist ones) state that the IDF attacked first, so regardless of whether there were extremists on board or not, they gave them what they wanted without the extremists even having to provoke them.

No, they didn't. Even if that description is accurate, it does not explain the deaths and use of lethal force. If it did there would have been fatalties, and indeed the use of lethal force, on the other vessels. There was not. A significant escalation was required to get what they wanted - dead "peace protesers" and Israelis that pulled the trigger.

Israel are fantastic at it, are you blind? If the U.S. did this, the only people in the U.S. that would be defending would be.... well no one. The American left sides largely in favour with Obama, but they'd quickly call out the military for killing civilian protestors as would the right. But the thing is, even the crazies on the extreme end of the right, like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, the people who would've stood up for the Bush administration if they'd done this, all those people, they'd be falling over themselves to pick on the government for such a massive ****-up like this.

If Israel were "fantastic" at it, it wouldn't be in this mess, the whole thing would have been ignored entirely or they would have been seen as unabigiously in the right. It wouldn't have made errors like confiscating all recording equipment - which while effective in ensuring that only your pictures get seen, doesn't do much for one's public image. They did do some things very well indeed - like admiting the use of lethal force, but overall the incident was handled pretty badly.

Anyway, I'm sure that what you are suggesting could indeed happen, I'm not familiar enough with the current American political scene to pass informed comment. What I would say is that it is such knee jerk, emotional reaction that I am arguing aginst here. Making statements like that before the facts are clear does nothing to improve the situation.

Oh please, we both know you were flat-out implying it even if you weren't stating it directly when you stated there might be links between the IHH and pick-a-terrorist-group. "Oh, isn't it interesting that the organisation that organised the flotilla can be linked to an islamic terrorist organisation. Not that I'm implying they might have been terrorists". Nonsense. If you weren't implying it, then why bring it up?

Because it is relevent to this situation - it is notable that there were on fatalities on the one vessel in the folitila that was operated by the IHH. In five out of six cases there was not lethal violence involved in the boarding actions, why was there one exception? What makes this ship different from the others? These are important questions to consider in this situation

"Supposed ties" to terrorist organizations is a better way of saying "a rumour"

That "rumour" comes from several well respected institutions. Additionally, the IHH is affiliated with the Charity Coalition, a group known to be involved in the funding of Hamas.

No they don't. They're most common solution to fighting Israel, these terrorists/islamic extremists/ne'er-do-well's, is to kill civilians and themselves with suicide bombs and Qassam rockets. They don't give a shit about how the media portrays them. They've never won a single public relations battle for themselves like you're suggesting they have with this, the IDF have always won them for the terrorists by obliterating Palestinian civilians and therefore shooting themselves in the foot. It's no different here.

These guys =/= Hamas.

Of course it was! That's the goal of a protest! To attract attention and sway the public opinion!

So you would agree that they do indeed have a political agenda and are, perhaps, not telling the whole truth in order to further it.

Israel discredited themselves all on their own, when they went massively overboard detaining all of the peaceful protestors who had already passively surrendered on the other five ships. They did that by tazering them in the back, shooting them with rubber bullets, firing tear gas at them and generally being disproportionately violent towards people who had already surrendered. Even the ones forming a ring near the captain's cabin to delay them were subjected to disproportionate violence.

"already surrendered ... forming a ring near the captains cabin to delay them". Those two things don't match up, now do they? If they had immediately surrendered and not slowed down the completion of the operation perhaps medical personell could have been brought in and those two fellows might not have died of blood loss.

Surrendering is the ending of resistance, passive or otherwise. Continuing resistance is not congruent with surrendering.

On top of that, they let the two of violent protestors slowly bleed to death when they could've treated them. Even if they are in the right on EVERYTHING else, that alone is worth condemnation.

Worthy of investigation. The surrounding situation is not fully known. From the reports I have read it took almost 2 hours to bring the ship fully under control, it is entirely possible that they died while the operation was still ongoing and it was not considered safe to bring in medical personell.

However, this certainly needs to be looked into in an impartial enquiry. Much like the use of force its self.

Hey, here's a clue: Their wouldn't be any refugee camps if the IDF and Israeli government weren't so amazingly brutal and oppressive and actually worked towards peaceful solutions that aren't just "Israel gets to keep every bit of land they've stolen since 1967, Palestine gets what's left".

Indeed. What was that place called... the Sinai? Yeah, that was it. It comprised about 2/3s of Israel's land area after 1967, as I recall. Now what happened to that? Oh yeah! They gave it back to Egypt! In exchange for peace agreement and normalisation of relations, no less.

Now, the vast majority of those refugee camps are actually the result of the '48-'49 war (in the '67 war the Palestinians had learned a valuable lesson - don't leave your house, cos otherwise it'll get demolished so you can't come back). Now, I'm not going to say that such camps arn't, at least in part, the result of ethnic cleansing conducted by Israeli forces during said war - there is good evidence to suggest they are.

 

[Bob_Marley]

What I am suggesting is that there has been plenty of time to come up with another solution. Most people living in those camps these days have never even set foot in the place they are "from". They were kept in refugee camps with the status of stateless persons, at least in part, because it was politically convienient for the host countries. First off, it gives the government a good excuse as to why it keeps fighting wars that go horribly, horribly wrong for it. Secondly, and this was particularly important in the case of Lebanon, it prevented them from upsetting the ethnic & religious balance of the state (particularly important in Lebanon up until the early '80s, owing to its government being dependent on the delicate power sharing agreement between Christians, Sunnis and Shia.).

Yeah, so they should just stop providing aid altogether and continue to brutally oppress them, that'll work better.

No, thats unsustainable, as is the current blockade against Gaza. The problem with the Gaza blockade is that it is acheving its primary goal - reducing the number of rocket attacks against Israel, which is why Israel is loath to lift it.

If I was going to suggest anything, off the top of my head, I'd suggest actually giving Hamas more aid than Fatah. Seriously, massive amounts of aid. Force millions of dollars worth of Israeli aid down thier throats and they'll loose all credibility as a palestinian nationalist organisation, loose there support and hopefully open the door for a more moderate organistation to control Gaza. Either that or they'll split into so many factions trying to fight over who gets what the organisation will self implode. Either way it would achieve the same goal. Of course a decrease in support and the rise of moderate influcences is obviously preferable to yet another civil war in Gaza.

They may not be able to win palestinian hearts and minds, but they can make Hamas loose the ones it has.

Yeah, only to further bankrupt them by sending the weapons to to the Taliban to prolong the resistance against the Soviet Union, which drove them further into financial disaster. That's not the same as two allies buying and selling weapons to each other in peacetime. The maneuver by the C.I.A. was an act of financial warfare, the move by Israel to sell Predator drones to Turkey is not the same at all. It was just like any other transaction its military-industrial complex makes.

Thats not the point. You talked of arms sales and trust. My example showed that trust is not always requried. The circumstances were certainly different, but it still disproves your point.

The US sold arms to post revolution Iran to fund the buying of arms for Contras in Nicaragia and Honduras. Pakistani intelligence provides arms to islamic extremist organistaions to pressure India, which on a number of occasions has backfired quite spectacularly. China sells arms to the Tatmadaw, despite the fact that recent Tatmadaw offensives, notably against the United Wa State Army, have sent refugees streaming into southern China and even went so far as to stage a military build up on the Sino-Burmese border and warn the Tatmadaw to halt its operation.

Additionally, most arms sales are the result of long programmes of testing and getting authorisation for aquisition. The Turkish move to aquire these UAVs has probably been years in the making. Also consider the economic aspect - losing the sale means lost money coming into the economy and lost jobs.

Oh **** off, they did not deliberately invoke a violent response. They provoked a response, definitely, but they didn't start attacking them.

Questionable at best. Additionally, a violent, lethal response was the best thing that could have possibly happened for this protest in its aim to discredit Israel - its very easy too look like the good guys when you're guys are dead and thiers arn't. From the footage I have seen it would indeed appear that they started attacking the commandos in such a fashion that would lead to a lethal response.

But I make exceptions for someone who says others deserve to die for attempting to bring attention to the plight of a people who should have the right to live a normal life, without being shot/bombed/having their home destroyed, their water supply ruined and being completely discriminated against in their own land, at random by an oppressive, fascist government. All because they fought back when being boarded in international waters by a foreign military who attacked them.

They "had it coming" because they were either brave or foolish enough to attempt to kill troops who's RoE allows them to use lethal force when thier lives are under threat. Additionally it was done in an attempt to breach a strictly enforced blockade. One does not have to be a member of Mensa to work out what was probably going to happen. They knew what they were doing and I have no sympathy for such people. Much like I have no sympathy for the Israeli commados wounded in the raid - this sort of thing is supposed to be thier job and they ****ed it up bad - such failures will result in casualties.

Good day sir.

Another Aid boat is heading to Gaza, the "Rachel Coorie", named after an american ran over by an Israeli bulldozer (and people cheered on, saying she deserved it). We'll see what happens with that aid boat in a few days.

This, apparently.

The problem long predates Hamas.

In the good old days the movement was led by the more respectable PLO. The issue is the occupation of Palestine by Isreal. Isreal needs to withdraw to 1968 boundaries and the West needs to send troops to guarantee it's security.

They wern't that respectable. Ties with the Red Army Fraction, murdering olympic atheltes, launching artillery attacks against Israeli villages and all that. But certainly better than Hamas.

Now, as much as I'm sure Israel would love to have the Sinai back, I don't think Egypt will go along with the idea. Now, if you were talking about the '67 boundries, I couldn't agree more. Give Gaza back to Egypt and the West Bank back to Jordan. Probably best to put Jerusalem under a UN mandate though - everyone gets very upset about that place for some reason and splitting it again isn't such a great idea. Other than the Jerusalem thing though, good idea. Reannex the Palestinian territories, grant the residents the relevent citizenship, panic over. The extremeists probably wont go along with it though. Good idea on paper though.

Well its just a thought on the matter, probably wont go anywhere.

 

[Gargantou]

Hamas = Democratically elected.

So was the Nazi Party of Germany, what's your point?

 

[unozero]

hamas is mosdef part of the problem not part of the solution.
and it's kinda ironic gargantou how you mentioned they're both "democratically" elected but also want all jews dead.

 

[Solaris]

Bob Marley, would you please stop calling it 'myamar'. It's called Burma, the only people who call it myama are the fascist junta who run the place and their apologists.

Your apologetics for the actions of the regime is hard to swallow too, sure you say you're just 'explaining' things but it doesn't hurt to be critical either.

 

[Bob_Marley]

I never said one should not be critical - that is the ultimate objective of the excercise - to create a situation where the conflict can be solved. It is not, however, solved by constant isolation of the state and sweeping sanctions that affect pretty much everyone but the ruling junta. If the US maintains its current policy it'll end up with another North Korea. Policies of isolation just fuel thier paranoia and stiffen thier resolve to hold on to power. Same thing with Hamas in Gaza - by isolating them, demanding immediate regieme change and being constantly critical of every piece of policy it puts out it convinces those in power that they are indeed under attack from the outside world and so need to "protect" the country from it. Which is why the Tatmadaw spend more than a third of the national budget on defence and most of that on weapons for dealing with external intervention, such as anti-aircraft missiles, despite the fact large areas of the country are under the control of the ethnic malitias. It doesn't make sense, but it does make sense to them.

A better policy that is more likley to have a positive effect on the lot of the average Burmese would be to adopt targeted sanctions (travel restrictions, freezing of assets, etc of Junta members) over the current general sanctions which have proven ineffective, and not to reject everything out of hand. Take the new consitiution, for example. Now, its really rather bad. 25% of seats retained for the military, NLD banned, Aung San Suu Kyi still under house arrest and most of the leading Junta members leaving the military to set up a political party to ensure they control the parliament. However, it is a step, no matter how small or tentative toward greater democracy and that should be acknowleged. Criticism of the rampant human rights abuses, continued detention of political prisoners, continued use of indentured labour, critiscism of the disapointing nature of the change and so fourth should of course continue - and is indeed required to remind the government that the world is still watching.

Look at the historical examples. Take the IRA. The British refusal to negosiate with them or thier associated political organistaions was a total faluire. The policy of political isolation and military action was ineffective. It was only by integrating the various factions into a political process that peace and political reform, with the ultimate result of the reinstatement of the devolved government in Stormont, could be achieved.

Now, obviously there are differences between dealing with a state government and an internal terrorist organistaion, but there are common principles that can be applied. On the other hand, the results of total political isolation of various state governments are plain and shocking - Countries like North Korea and Myanmar/Burma.

As for the Burma/Myanmar question, well, as I said, while it is indeed true that it was the Tatmadaw government that changed the name of the state historical Burma is not congruent with the current state - when indipendence was granted large indipendently administered areas were made part of Burma propper, so while most of the population is indeed Bamar, there is a significant minorty of non-Bamar, such as the Shan and Karen. Calling the whole area Burma is somewhat akin to calling the whole of Northern Ireland "Protestant Ireland", which is both inaccurate and expresses preference for the majority religious group. However, I do appreciate your position and respect the goals you seek through this particular request. While Burma does have negative connotations, you are perhaps right that it has less than Myanmar, so I'll stick to Burma in future discussions here.

Anyway, I'm off on holiday for a month or so, catch y'all later.

 

[<RJMC>]

Bob Marley, would you please stop calling it 'myamar'. It's called Burma, the only people who call it myama are the fascist junta who run the place and their apologists.

Your apologetics for the actions of the regime is hard to swallow too, sure you say you're just 'explaining' things but it doesn't hurt to be critical either.

the facist junta that get along so well whit china

 

[T-6000]

Israel got Green Light From U.S. Before The Humanitarian Aid Flotilla was Attacked?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS0QrdfVYX8&feature=related

 

[No Limit]

Source: Reuters


1 hr 17 mins ago

LONDON (Reuters) – Nine Turkish activists killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot a total of 30 times and five died of gunshot wounds to the head, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Friday.

Autopsy results showed the men were hit mostly with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range, the Guardian said, quoting Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine which carried out the autopsies on Friday.

Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships planning to break the Israeli sea blockade of Gaza on Monday. The deaths, which all took place on one ship, the Mavi Marmara, drew widespread condemnation.

Israel said the marines who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara fired in self-defense after activists attacked them with clubs and knives as well as two pistols snatched from the commandos.

The autopsy results showed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the Guardian said.

A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, was shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said.

Two other men were shot four times. Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100604/wl_nm/us_israel_flotilla_autopsies

5 of the 9 victims were shot in the back from only inches away, self defense my ass. That's called an execution. Israel continues to refuse to release all it's tapes of the incident.

 

[Blackthorn]

Looking forward to seeing someone try to justify shooting dead a 60 year old man with his back turned.

 

[Solaris]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100604/wl_nm/us_israel_flotilla_autopsies

5 of the 9 victims were shot in the back from only inches away, self defense my ass. That's called an execution. Israel continues to refuse to release all it's tapes of the incident.

I'm not so sure, if someone's running at you with a club or knife, you can see how they'd end up getting shot at close range like that.

 

[Blackthorn]

If they were running at them with a club or knife BACKWARDS.

 

[No Limit]

I'm not so sure, if someone's running at you with a club or knife, you can see how they'd end up getting shot at close range like that.

In the back means they were running away from not toward the Isralie soldiers. Its not rocket science brah.

 

[Gargantou]

In the back means they were running away from not toward the Isralie soldiers. Its not rocket science brah.

Couldn't it possibly mean they were running towards another Israeli soldier?

Just saying, do not mean it as a justification.

 

[Blackthorn]

I'm sure if they rappelled out a helicopter they'd all be facing the same direction. Also, the 19 year old was shot from a few inches away, which doesn't suggest he was running anywhere:

A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, was shot five times from less than 45 cm (18 inches) away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said.

This was point blank range, and he was shot in both the face AND the back of the head? That's a long way from being tactical, defensive force, I doubt he was still a threat after the first shot. The number of shots fired indicates there was little restraint either.

You've also got to ask why they would charge towards armed forces while they're being shot at, especially a 60 year old man.

 

[No Limit]

Couldn't it possibly mean they were running towards another Israeli soldier?

Just saying, do not mean it as a justification.

Blackthorn explained it better than I could. It was a few inches away, so if they posed a threat to another soldier because they had a stick I doubt the Israeli soldiers would have fired as there would have been a high risk of a friendly soldier getting hit. So I doubt these people posed any kind of threat. And since Israel won't release the tapes I am assuming I'm right. But maybe you got a better reason for them hiding the evidance?

 

[<RJMC>]

I read that iran is considering in sending escorts to the next boats

in a spanish source

http://es.reuters.com/article/topNews/idESMAE6550DF20100606

if that happens then thats it,war will happens and some people will support the "peace loving palestine saviour" of iran while they say they are in no way developing the nuclear bomb

 

[VirusType2]

So I'm sure you have a reason for why Israel at this point has only released a few minutes of tape, only the minutes that make them look good when they have hours more of video that they are hiding. So if what you say is true and Israel has nothing to hide why haven't all the tapes been released?

On wiretapping and spying on citizens: If you aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about.

On Immigration: We are going to check ID of anyone that looks Mexican. If you aren't an illegal immigrant, you have nothing to worry about.

On File-sharing: We want to see what you have on your hard drive. If you haven't downloaded any unauthorized copies of music, you have nothing to worry about.


Why does America not release footage of botched operations or you know, prison abuses, etc.?

Unless there is some kind of war crime international trial, then it would be foolish to release any video footage.

I'm sure if they rappelled out a helicopter they'd all be facing the same direction.

Clearly you don't know anything about sliding down a rope?

So I doubt these people posed any kind of threat. And since Israel won't release the tapes I am assuming I'm right. But maybe you got a better reason for them hiding the evidance?

Did you not watch the released video footage? I saw a man beating the ever loving **** out of an IDF solider - the most brutal shit I have ever seen in my life, while the soldier just kept trying to back away and did not retaliate.

Did you not see the cache of weapons they possessed? What does that have to do with peace and aid?


And the Pro-Palestinians have claimed this as a major success. This is exactly what they wanted to happen. The 19 year old who was killed, his parents are not sad, they are proud their son is a martyr.

It sparked international outrage that calls for the blockade to be completely dropped so that Iran, Syria and Turkey can pump 10,000 more rockets into Gaza so they can be fired into Israel? Because they don't mind if Israel blows up Gaza - that's not their land. Let this battle tie up Israel while Iran and Turkey work on the nukes.

The whole situation is ****ed, there are no good guys here.

 

[Warped]

Israel got Green Light From U.S. Before The Humanitarian Aid Flotilla was Attacked?

who knows, but one thing for sure is that Israel does what they want to do. But you don't have to make up for lost time in 2010 by ruining another nation, and just because you got your ass handed to you during WW2, doesn't mean you have to go decimate another population to prove you can fight. In all honesty we need to stop funding Israel, they're not a good ally at all. And we gain practically nothing to keep them as friends, instead if we were to help Palestinians and real refugees other nations may look at us in a better light. its just like at any business though, everyone across the globe has favorites and it just so happens that Israel is the United State's little bitch in the Middle East.

 

[VirusType2]

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may personally try to break the Gaza blockade by sailing there, the Lebanese newspaper Al-Mustaqbal reported on Saturday.

The paper said the report was based on Turkish sources “in the know.”

According to media reports, Erdogan may also consider sending Turkish Navy vessels to accompany future protest ships that head to Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177567

Iran would be willing to send its Revolutionary Guard members to accompany further aid ships to Gaza, Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday in an interview cited by Reuters.

"The naval wing of the Revolutionary Guard is ready to assist the peace flotilla to Gaza with all its effort and capabilities," Khamenei's Revolutionary Guard spokesman Ali Shirazi stated.

"If the Supreme Leader issues an order for this then the Revolutionary Guard naval forces will do their best to secure the ships," Shirazi said. "It is Iran's duty to defend the innocent people of Gaza."

Last week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad termed the IDF raid on the Gaza-bound Mavi Marmara as "barbaric" and called for dismantling of “the Zionist regime.”

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177635

 

[Blackthorn]

Did you not watch the released video footage? I saw a man beating the ever loving **** out of an IDF solider - the most brutal shit I have ever seen in my life, while the soldier just kept trying to back away and did not retaliate.

I'm sure if they released footage of the shootings that would've been the most brutal shit you have ever seen in your life. And weapons cache? Are you suggesting that's a serious threat? Because I don't see what threat knives are if the people carrying them are on a boat. Are they gonna hurl them at the Israelis as they come in to dock? Plus this is an issue of context. They show you a picture of a load of knives, they call it a weapons cache, you think it's a weapons cache.

The 19 year old who was killed, his parents are not sad, they are proud their son is a martyr.

How the hell do you know the parents aren't sad?

It sparked international outrage that calls for the blockade to be completely dropped so that Iran, Syria and Turkey can pump 10,000 more rockets into Gaza so they can be fired into Israel?

Don't forget that blockade doesn't just stop weapons getting in, it stops essential aid getting in as well. The conditions in Gaza are terrible, and the population there is deliberately being starved of supplies. Not to mention with the IDF's continued disproportionate aggression there are new deaths and injuries every day. If this was purely a defence issue, they would only prevent weapons entering.

 

[No Limit]

So you are comparing wiretapping to seizing hours of video (video that doesnt belong to them) in international waters then cutting that video to about 2 minutes. They didnt want you to see what they were doing and they stole video from people to make sure you never see it. This video would show why 9 people died, including an american shot in the back 4 times from inches away. And you think there is an excuse for hiding this evidance? Give me a ****ing break.

These type of bullshit excuses you are putting up really piss me off. They are not logical and you know that. Why are you so quick to jump on israel's dick?

 

[VirusType2]

How the hell do you know the parents aren't sad?

The father of the youngest of the nine activists killed – 19-year-old high school student Furkan Dogan, who had dual U.S.-Turkish citizenship – praised his son for dying in a just cause.

Ahmet Dogan told the state-run Anatolia news agency he identified his boy in the morgue and he had been shot through the forehead. Still, he said, the family was not sad because they believed Furkan had died with honor.

“I feel my son has been blessed with heaven,” he said. “I am hoping to be a father worthy of my son.”

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100604/NEWS04/306049947
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2010/jun/04/turkey-9-extolled-martyrs-20100604/

Don't forget that blockade doesn't just stop weapons getting in, it stops essential aid getting in as well. The conditions in Gaza are terrible, and the population there is deliberately being starved of supplies. Not to mention with the IDF's continued disproportionate aggression there are new deaths and injuries every day. If this was purely a defence issue, they would only prevent weapons entering.

While I think the blockade isn't very effective in letting only aid in, Hamas does well enough on it's own to prevent aid to the people:

Hamas is hijacking some of the 6,000 tons of international humanitarian aid that have entered Gaza this week for the poor, and instead is using the goods to fund its own support system, the Israeli government charged.

Since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead over three weeks ago, Israel has supervised the delivery of nearly 50,000 tons into Gaza but has no supervision over the trucks after the food and medicines are transferred to Arab trucks at Gaza crossings.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129550

The UN Relief and Works Agency said that armed police who answer to Gaza's Islamist rulers stormed into the building on Tuesday night and removed 3,500 blankets and over 400 food parcels destined for distribution to 500 families.

"They were armed, they seized this, they took it by force," said Christopher Gunness, the agency's spokesman, adding that the confiscation of humanitarian aid was "absolutely unacceptable".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...za-Hamas-seizes-UN-food-aid-and-blankets.html

the main organization behind the so-called "Gaza Freedom" flotilla is the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), a so-called "relief" organization from Turkey.

This is an organization which does not conceal its close ties to Hamas, a terror organization as recognized by the United States, Israel and the European Union (EU).

The Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation is openly supportive of Hamas, an organization that is widely seen as the one of the largest perpetrators of human rights violations, having violently seized control of the Gaza Strip, and committed immeasurable human rights violations against secular Palestine Arabs, not to mention hundreds of terror attacks initiated targeting the citizens of Israel.

Hamas is refusing to allow aid from the Israeli raided flotilla entry into Gaza.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/6006583-hamas-blocks-entry-of-aid-into-gaza

The blockade was a desperate attempt by Egypt and Israel to block Hamas from resupplying weapons. Israel wanted to have leverage to free a captured Israeli soldier who has not yet been released.

Israel provides tons of food, water, medical supplies and fuel to Gaza on a daily basis. Israeli officials repeated that if this was a true humanitarian event, not a PR exercise, Hamas would have used the existing channels - the UN, the EU and Israel to transfer whatever cargo they had.

Just before sunrise the IDF Navy intercepted six ships that were attempting to break the maritime closure of the Gaza Strip. Israel and the Israel Navy provided numerous warnings issued prior to the incident. The Israel Navy requested that the Hamas backed ships to redirect themselves towards Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred to Gaza after undergoing security inspections.

Israel provides tons of food, water, medical supplies and fuel to Gaza on a daily basis. Israeli officials repeated that if this was a true humanitarian event, not a PR exercise, Hamas would have used the existing channels - the UN, the EU and Israel to transfer whatever cargo they had.

During the boarding of the Gaza flotilla ships, protesters onboard demonstrated that this was not a non violent event as they attacked IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs.

The organizers of the Palestine Flotilla to Gaza consisted of some of the worst global terror groups including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, al-Qaeda and their fund raisers the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation.

What made this Palestine PR stunt or electronic Jihad exercise even more barbaric was the blatant use of volunteers on the ship who had good and true humanitarian intentions.

Some of these humanitarian volunteers were unaware that they were being used by the terror group Hamas as Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation used both diplomats and volunteers from the UK, the US, Sweden, France, Germany and other countries as human shields as Hamas attacked a peaceful IDF boarding force with guns, knives and clubs.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/gaz...urkishreliefusuneuterrorismships48053110.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE

Hamas is responsible for Gaza’s humanitarian plight

And the reason for the Palestinians’ failure was the rise of Hamas in Gaza, the terrorist group that has refused to abide by agreements entered into between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

Even after Hamas won a majority of legislative seats in January 2006 on a platform that included the vow to destroy the Jewish state, the truckloads continued to flow into and out of Gaza. Data compiled by the Palestine Trade Association provides compelling proof of Israel’s incredible forbearance in the face of Hamas provocations and threats to its security.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22468

These type of bullshit excuses you are putting up really piss me off. They are not logical and you know that. Why are you so quick to jump on israel's dick?

I'm American. I know the difference between American and Terrorist isn't always major, but in my eyes, it is the lesser of evils.

On the contrary, it looks like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and co. has you and much of the world eating out of their hands.

 

[No Limit]

Wtf are you talking about? Are you actually listening to yourself.

The people on that boat were not terrorists. Iran had nothing to do with this. You are changing the subject. If israel is innocent why did they steal hours of video that showed the entire context of the situation? Why did they only release a couple minutes in which their side looked good? We still dont know what happened before they got on that ship, without that context you dont know shit about what happened and israel wants to make sure you never know what happened.

Again, why are you defending this cover up? 9 people died, they were not terrorists, they were not evil doers. They were innocent civilians. We deserve to know how they died, and its being hidden from us. Why?

 

[Blackthorn]

The difference is, Virus, you only cite sources favouring Israeli policy. All your references are either from Israeli news agencies or based upon information supplied by Israeli officials. A quick search of "conditions in Gaza" in Google with give you a multitude or articles from far more reliable sources. I'm not defending Hamas, but given the attitudes in Israeli policy which are based upon extreme religious ideology (God-given right to the land, 1 Israeli life worth 12 Palestinian etc.) it's not at all surprising an evil was elected to fight an evil. They're crooks, but the Palestinian people who are suffering are not.

And please do not try and portray the Israeli government as making genuine efforts to aid the population of Gaza. There is no way you could ever convince me of that. Two of my family's closest friends are members of an Israeli peace movement (which has widespread support and is very rarely reported), who have first hand experience with the region and no support for their extremist, right-wing government. Persecution they faced is the reason they left, despite being Israeli. One of them was beaten nearly to death and can't speak properly simply because he supported the peace movement.

And a parent saying they aren't sad because their child is in heaven doesn't mean that they aren't actually sad, it's a display of faith not "Yaaay, our son was shot dead, he's a martyr now". To claim they aren't grieving is insensitive and based upon no evidence whatsoever.

 

[VirusType2]

I'll get to that stuff later, I ****ed up my post and I'll have to retype it.

NEWS

Turkish pro-Palestinian campaigners have released photographs showing terrified, bleeding Israeli soldiers cowering and surrounded by activists on the Turkish aid ship that they had stormed.

the IHH was able to recover photos on one camera using special software, Mr Bilici said.

In one picture, a soldier who appears to be crying in anguish grips the back of his head while someone from behind grasps his arm to direct him down a flight of stairs. His face is bruised and cut, his shirt is ripped open, and he does not appear to have his weapon.

Another soldier lies on the floor with blood on his hand while activists look as if they are removing his bullet-proof vest.

In the following pictures, the soldier is either being carried or dragged down the stairs, then hands are seen on his chest. He may be attempting to fend them off with his own raised hands.

Some of the pictures show a figure in civilian clothes holding a short, black-handled serrated knife. It is not clear whether this could be a military knife taken from one of the commandos.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2919685.htm?section=justin

 

[No Limit]

You keep ignoring the point. You cant look at one picture and know what happened. You need to see everything to put it in context. And israel will not allow you to see this context because they are hiding something. why are you so quick to assume they arent lying to you?

 

[Some_God]

Why are you so quick to assume they are?

You cant look at one picture and know what happened.

Pwned.

 

[T-6000]

One of the passengers, an Ex-Marine, managed to disarm one of the soldiers and disarm his weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeUhwELoKWo&feature=email

There also seems to be 17 that are unaccounted for, so far. U.S. and Israeli media keeps claiming that the people on the boat were savage terrorists, but here we have some of them healing one of the injured Israeli soldiers. "Savages" wouldn't bother healing soldiers that tried to kill them.

http://twitpic.com/1uierf

 

[Blackthorn]

Why are you so quick to assume they are?

Pwned.

A photo does not prove cause and effect, which is what is important here. I could show you photos of activists being shot to death (which haven't been released, of course) which would be shocking, but would not prove who attacked who first. You seem quick to label the actions of the IDF self defence, but the same could be said for the activists. And considering the IDF had no casualties while the activists had many, the latter is more convincing.

 

[No Limit]

Why are you so quick to assume they are?

Pwned.

I told you why. Because they are not releasing all the hours of video they have, just highly edited versions that fit their agenda.

 

[Sparta]

Why are you so quick to assume they are?

Pwned.

Yes. Pwned indeed.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho

Hey, look, it's the same guy who "dragged" him down the stairs standing to the right of him. That's a strange lynching pose he's adopted there, what was with the passive non-threatening stance he's taken as he watches someone who appears to be administering first aid.

And look, no Hurriyet watermark and it's nowhere on their site. That's odd isn't it. It's almost like they were constructing a narrative and refusing to publish evidence that damaged that narrative.

 

[T-6000]

Yes. Pwned indeed.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho

Hey, look, it's the same guy who "dragged" him down the stairs standing to the right of him. That's a strange lynching pose he's adopted there, what was with the passive non-threatening stance he's taken as he watches someone who appears to be administering first aid.

And look, no Hurriyet watermark and it's nowhere on their site. That's odd isn't it. It's almost like they were constructing a narrative and refusing to publish evidence that damaged that narrative.

Yup, you can be surprised of the misconceptions that can arise when you only have one part of the whole picture. Believe me, it's lead to more than one fight in my family when we don't get a proper explanation. And this is on top of them not wanting an international investigation into the incident. If Israel is so confident in their side of the story, then an investigation would lead to their side. But they are doing everything they can to keep that from happening, with the help of the U.S., which shows that they do have something to hide.

 

[No Limit]

So none of the people here that were quick to give Israel a nice juicy blow job have anything to say about Israel tampering with evidance? Or does it still boil down to Israel = good / everyone that questions that = bad?