John McCain no better than bush

[Sulkdodds]

You're reading far too much into a short 40-second clip that - as far as I can tell - was just a joking response to a loaded question....Prior to this video, he was getting a fair amount of praise and respect, despite disagreement with his views. But the moment the words "Bomb" and "Iran" show up in the same sentence, the kneejerk response is "OMG WARMONGER DOUCHE BAG ASS RIGHT-WING IDIOT".

I haven't even watched the video, but I have read an extensive piece that criticises McCain for corruption, excessive curtailment of civil liberties and other stuff. Unfortunately, it's not very good grounds for hatage as I can't remember much that was in it. I'll have to look it out...

 

[Absinthe]

That's his assessment, and I'm all for more honest inquiry as to how legitimate a problem Iran may pose (if any at all), as I can't say I'd be too excited for any future conflicts. Every reasonable attempt needs to be made at avoiding conflict when possible. But should it be found that they have the capability, ignoring intent for the moment, then we need to give some serious thought about the implications.

North Korea also concerns me. Not for religious reasons, but for very similar ones. Kim Jong-il is a powermonger, and has shown clearly that he has little regard for his people. North Korea obtaining nuclear weapons means that an unreasonable man has more bargaining room than he deserves. Resistance towards actions that may be stupid or outright hostile will decrease as a result of a North Korean ability to inflict massive casualties. And I have no doubt that as egocentric Kim is, he would not hesitate to launch a nuclear weapon if he thought he was going down anyway.

I generally hate drawing WW2 comparisons, but this is pretty much the same process that happened with Nazi Germany when it restarted militarization and began expanding. An unreasonable, hostile nation was given more and more leeway out of the fear of the consequences until this grew to be both untenable and unacceptable. Had Nazi Germany been facestomped the moment they marched into the Rhineland, however, there's every reason to believe that problem would have been nipped at the bud.

Am I advocating the invasion of North Korea? No. But it is important to keep these things in mind. The last thing I want to see is either Iran or North Korea flaunting nukes in order to get things their way. I do not have any concrete opinions on how either of them should be dealt with. But I do want to see some kind of rational discourse that doesn't involve people polarizing to stupid talking points. As with nearly every other situation in life, this is not black and white. Maybe Iran does deserve nuclear capability as a sovereign nation, but let's not just ignore the destructive potential of it. Conversely, the potential for destruction isn't enough to justify military action most of the time. But I'm not seeing this kind of thought process. I'm seeing people bunker down in their respective camps and just act oblivious to whatever reasonable points the other side is making.

------

As for McCain, I'll admit that my first post was in all probability too hasty, and even ignorant. I've pretty much stopped watching the presidential rat race for the time being because I think it's gotten stupidly tiring and I don't like hearing the same things over and over again for months on end. That I still hear people making a big deal out Obama's attendance to a Muslim school when he was young is sickening. He's not a Muslim. He's a Christian. Get the **** over it.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Shit, how'd all this Iran stuff get here while I wasn't looking? I thought I was in a different thread for a moment.

Well this is interesting.

/me reads

 

[CptStern]

while it is his assessment he is the most qualified person to make that assessment excepting Iranians themselves ..at this point anything coming from the US government is not to be trusted ..I mean they fabricated their entire justification for the invasion of iraq why would anyone have faith that they'd fly straight and narrow with Iran? it just doesnt make any sense

btw the US government (the ones actually qualified to make that assessment, not just because they are affiliated to the house of bush like every other "expert" bush and his cronies parade in front of the media) also made it's assessment and they came to the same conclusion

 

[Gunner]

the last coup was disastrous ..it paved the way for death squads (Savak) and the islamic revolution ...all for retaining a stranglehold on one of the worlds most prosperous oil producing nations


are you willing for 10's of thosands of Iranians to die just to get rid of a handful of people? you must not love your place of origin all that much

Why should I? they wanted Khomeini, they asked for all this when they begged him to come save Iran in 79.

But don't let me derail this thread, besides we'll never agree on this.

 

[CptStern]

what the Shah and his brutal secret police Savak were any better? the US put the shah into power ffs ..this is who you want to "save" your country?

 

[Absinthe]

The government's going to be ****ed no matter what. Intervention with puppet governments clearly doesn't work (and there's no reason it should), and the people themselves are quite content with supporting or at least tolerating oppression.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Let 'em screw themselves over for as long as they want for all I care. The only time anybody else should care about happenings over there is when it starts posing legitimate problems for others.

 

[Solaris]

I agree with Absinthe here, if Iran was trying to develop Nuclear weapons I would advocate military action against them, but only as a last resort.

 

[kirovman]

I agree with Absinthe here, if Iran was trying to develop Nuclear weapons I would advocate military action against them, but only as a last resort.

Tony Blair is expected to announce that Iran has the capability to launch missiles at London within 45 minutes...

 

[CptStern]

well that settles it ...missle silos at the ready, let loose the dogs of war!

assistant: but sir you fabricated everything

<bang> I regret to inform the media that my personal assistant has taken his own life

 

[Gray Fox]

I agree with Absinthe here, if Iran was trying to develop Nuclear weapons I would advocate military action against them, but only as a last resort.

What the hell, doesn't this go against everything you believe.

 

[kirovman]

I'm just as surprised as you are.

 

[The Monkey]

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.

D:

Can anyone tell me what it was about?

 

[CptStern]

here's the gist of it:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/4/19/131934.shtml

In response to an audience question about military action against Iran, the Arizona senator briefly sang the chorus of the surf-rocker classic "Barbara Ann."

question: "How many times do we have to prove that these people are blowing up people now, nevermind if they get a nuclear weapon, when do we send 'em an airmail message to Tehran?"

"That old, eh, that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran," he said in jest Wednesday, chuckling with the crowd. Then, he softly sang to the melody: "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, anyway, ah ..." The audience responded with more laughter.

 

[Gunner]

what the Shah and his brutal secret police Savak were any better? the US put the shah into power ffs ..this is who you want to "save" your country?

Oh my the brutal secret police!

 

[CptStern]

Oh my the brutal secret police!

actually they were benelovent misunderstood humanitarians

SAVAK's torture methods included electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

The notorious Iranian security service, SAVAK, which employed torture routinely, was created under the guidance of the CIA and Israel in the 1950s.9 According to a former CIA analyst on Iran, Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was instructed in torture techniques by the Agency. After the 1979 revolution, the Iranians found CIA film made for SAVAK on how to torture women.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Torture_RS.html

 

[Gunner]

actually they were benelovent misunderstood humanitarians

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Torture_RS.html

And somehow you think things are better now because there obviously is no more secret police, right? I mean they must have packed up left right? all these people getting whipped, put in jail, tortured today must be making it up, right?

 

[CptStern]

well there's no more savak ..the regime executed most of it's members ...but I dont see how one evil justifies another. btw you're avoiding the issue and putting words in my mouth

 

[Gunner]

All I'm saying is things were better before 79. Iran wasn't the third world country it is now.

 

[MiccyNarc]

His response when asked about it was: "Get a life"

I'm actually starting to like him.