Juvenile Execution

[kmack]

In a controversial 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court ruled that executing people who commited crimes as a Juvenile is unconstitutional. The white house is not happy about this (Our Prez was governer presiding over FOUR executions of Juvenile killers) how do you feel?

Well thanks for asking, I am a proponent of the death penalty, but feel the execution of the mentally retarted is wrong, and I feel that juveniles should be spared the death penalty, they will remain in jail the rest of their lives, that is probably more punishment than death. I'm not sure about how the constitution plays into this, but I agree with the decision nonetheless.

 

[Eg.]

why keep killers in jail?

they get free food

they get free healt care

if anything, we waste more money on them then teh family does on the funeral. a 17 year old murderer knows what he is doing. a 13 year old does not know what he was doing, and needs to be ended.

 

[Edcrab]

Hmm. If people really believe that a life-sentence (i.e., jailed until they die, not some cop-out like twenty-five or even fifteen years) is a worse punishment than death, what, precisely, is the logic behind opposing juvenile execution?

Is it because juveniles (I am, in particular, talking about cases of teenage offenders) don't deserve death, that it's too harsh a punishment? Then if jail really is a worse fate, how can that be justified instead?

I personally believe- just to make my stance a little clearer- that punishment should be representative of the crime and the attitude of the criminal. You may not be able to measure maturity, but I have always resented the very idea that a 16 year old murderer is radically different to a man two years older than him. It's a concept that goes against the very equality I tried to champion before adulthood.

 

[kmack]

why keep killers in jail?

they get free food

they get free healt care

if anything, we waste more money on them then teh family does on the funeral. a 17 year old murderer knows what he is doing. a 13 year old does not know what he was doing, and needs to be ended.

I agree, but at what age is the line drawn? 12, 13, 15, 9? They picked 17 because it is the legal age at whiche we are juveniles, it would be hard to use the constitution to justify an age that means nothing.

Frankly jail is not like that at all (my father works in a prison and has seen it firsthand enduring riots and seeing many murders), it is a dangerous place for a killer. Generally someone truley deserving of death, will get it in jail. You'd be surprised at how a bank robber treats someone who rapes and murders little girls, he will kill him (it happens often, Micheal Skakel who is up for the death penalty in Conn in a few weeks was stabbed 3 times, he raped and murdered over a dozen women, and jail is not a safe place for that calibur criminal). Free food and hair cuts is a steep price to pay for the fear of death at any minute.

 

[burner69]

why keep killers in jail?

they get free food

they get free healt care

if anything, we waste more money on them then teh family does on the funeral. a 17 year old murderer knows what he is doing. a 13 year old does not know what he was doing, and needs to be ended.

It's about the sancity of life, about not just offing people because we can't be arsed to deal with their problems.

And if people are so bothered about paying for people's time in prison, why isn't their uproar at the fact that around 30% of people in US jails are there on drugs charges, predominantly cannabis possesion.

 

[Eg.]

because drugs are bad. i myself have no problems with weed, but if my son smoked, i would beat him to an inch of his life. its ur duty as a parent to make them stay away from harmful things. a government is meant to protect the populace, so by removing harmful people, we protect the rest. they have only hurt themselves and may hurt others

the BTK guy didnt care about the sancity of life, so why should we keep him alive?

 

[burner69]

because drugs are bad. i myself have no problems with weed, but if my son smoked, i would beat him to an inch of his life. its ur duty as a parent to make them stay away from harmful things. a government is meant to protect the populace, so by removing harmful people, we protect the rest. they have only hurt themselves and may hurt others

the BTK guy didnt care about the sancity of life, so why should we keep him alive?

Don't get talking about drugs mate. The thread'll get closed. PM me if you wanna talk bout it, I'd be glad to.

 

[kirovman]

because drugs are bad

Mmmkay?

but if my son smoked, i would beat him to an inch of his life.

I'm very sorry to hear that.



I don't support execution in anyway (who wants to be the one to kill someone and pull the plug anyway?)

So it's a step in the right direction.

Juvenille's are too young to be executed. They need at least one chance to turn their life in the right direction before they turn 18.
Kids don't have all the rationale behaviour,maturity and experience an adult has.
So dentention should try to teach them the error of their ways.

EDIT: I agree with (Not) Ronald MacDonald below.
And a lot of people sentenced to death are later found to be innocent. Is that an acceptable price to pay for justice? Death of innocents?

 

[AntiAnto]

I'm 100% against death penality. Young or adult, nobody deserves to die.

 

[Edcrab]

As stated, the problem is of course that you can't measure an individual's rationale or maturity.

In a perfect world, I'd execute unrepentant teenagers with the intellectual prowess of ten Einsteins while granting 42 year old killers with mental issues a long stay in therapy.

Alternatively I'd just kill every major criminal and put all my nation's money towards extensive education and employment programmes. I don't, for example, think that fining cash-strapped prostitutes is a good way to get them off the street. If they resorted to walking the night to pay their way through life in the first place, how the hell can a government think they won't try it again to pay off the legally-imposed fine?

 

[el Chi]

Hmm. If people really believe that a life-sentence (i.e., jailed until they die, not some cop-out like twenty-five or even fifteen years) is a worse punishment than death, what, precisely, is the logic behind opposing juvenile execution?

Is it because juveniles (I am, in particular, talking about cases of teenage offenders) don't deserve death, that it's too harsh a punishment? Then if jail really is a worse fate, how can that be justified instead?

I personally believe- just to make my stance a little clearer- that punishment should be representative of the crime and the attitude of the criminal. You may not be able to measure maturity, but I have always resented the very idea that a 16 year old murderer is radically different to a man two years older than him. It's a concept that goes against the very equality I tried to champion before adulthood.

Life imprisonment isn't supposed to be about a fate worse than death. It's supposed to be a horrible punishment without infringing on - as Burner put it - the sanctity life and regressing beyond the point of no return and no retrial. Therefore, there is no flaw in the logic of opposing execution. Or, at least, not the logic that you put forward.
However, I agree with you that twenty years is not a life sentence. The idea of going away for that amount of time is absolutely horrible, and it would be a sizeable chunk of your life thrown away. However, it's simply not life.

I see where you're coming from in terms of age discrimination, but that's such a hazy boundary with all things. A girl has consensual sex with her 16-year old boyfriend a week before her 16th birthday. Technically, he has commited statuatory rape. I'm not saying he's going to get done for this, but it does highlight the oddness of suich boundaries.
The point is, you have to put a line somewhere. I'm sure courts ought to be more circumspect when dealing with cases so close to these boundaries.

I don't, for example, think that fining cash-strapped prostitutes is a good way to get them off the street. If they resorted to walking the night to pay their way through life in the first place, how the hell can a government think they won't try it again to pay off the legally-imposed fine?

Prostitution should be legal. It's astounding that it's not, to be honest.

 

[Edcrab]

Ah, but I uphold a human's quality of life over a notion like its sanctity. If I'm suffering an agonising death, I do, for example, want the freedom to die with dignity without religious fanatics or selfish officials denying me that right.

As punishment goes I've always supported execution, but the largest problem is the fact that it's entirely irreversible, so with an imperfect justice system it can never be infallible. I do, however, believe that persistent offenders whose guilt has been proven beyond all doubt should be executed.

I accept (and agree) that the line must be drawn somewhere in our laws; but these should be guidelines and nothing more, in my book. We have a system whereby 12 complete strangers with little or no experience of our justice system can pass judgement on a man they don't even know, so allowing a judge to drop a charge and say "you're both consenting, mature individuals" to a pair of fornicating teens seems fine to me.

Uh, although if they were fornicating in the courtroom I'm sure there'd be consequences.

 

[burner69]

Life imprisonment isn't supposed to be about a fate worse than death. It's supposed to be a horrible punishment without infringing on - as Burner put it - the sanctity life and regressing beyond the point of no return and no retrial. Therefore, there is no flaw in the logic of opposing execution. Or, at least, not the logic that you put forward.
However, I agree with you that twenty years is not a life sentence. The idea of going away for that amount of time is absolutely horrible, and it would be a sizeable chunk of your life thrown away. However, it's simply not life.

I think 20 years would feel like life for me.

How about life imprisonment = 2/3rds of your current age behind bars???

 

[Edcrab]

In which case that unrepentant 14 year old British bastard who mutilated and murdered his girlfriend would've got 12 years (he was 16 on the day of his sentencing). I'm not sure if I'd have supported the idea that he could be redeemed.

 

[el Chi]

Ah, but I uphold a human's quality of life over a notion like its sanctity. If I'm suffering an agonising death, I do, for example, want the freedom to die with dignity without religious fanatics or selfish officials denying me that right.

As punishment goes I've always supported execution, but the largest problem is the fact that it's entirely irreversible, so with an imperfect justice system it can never be infallible. I do, however, believe that persistent offenders whose guilt has been proven beyond all doubt should be executed..

Perhaps "sanctity" was the wrong word to use, but I'd rather not get bogged down in semantics.
I'm a little confused however. You say you uphold someone's quality of life as paramount, so are you then saying that prison is worse than death? Sorry that's a little unclear.

The very idea of convicting someone is that they are proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. The jury is not supposed to come to a unanimous decision of "Probably" Thus, if you're accused of murder and the jury finds you guilty, you're going to fry - no maybe about it.

Uh, although if they were fornicating in the courtroom I'm sure there'd be consequences

Well, there'd be a new dvd on the market, for starters :naughty:

In which case that unrepentant 14 year old British bastard who mutilated and murdered his girlfriend would've got 12 years (he was 16 on the day of his sentencing). I'm not sure if I'd have supported the idea that he could be redeemed.

This was the kid who was so obviously influenced by Marilyn Manson? :hmph:

I think 20 years would feel like life for me.

How about life imprisonment = 2/3rds of your current age behind bars???

Oh I know it'd feel like ages, but sentences get reduced, etc. It's tough to know how remorseful a person genuinely is, but perhaps sentences could be lengthened/shortened on merit of that (from a typical starting point of course - say, 20 years? ) It's all about punishment and rehabilitation, after all.

 

[Edcrab]

I've always maintained that there's a world of difference between "reasonable doubt" and "no doubt". There is still no measurable legal definition of "reasonable" (not that there ever could be, considering all the situations encountered). To reiterate without rambling, let's just say that if someone has, say, been caught on tape massacring a school, I wouldn't object to their execution.

I suppose that just because it's possible that Bob didn't stab Mrs. Bob, doesn't mean he didn't. That's why justice is such a bugger :x

As for prison being worse than death, I wouldn't say so (but of course that's my personal opinion), because it's merely a low quality of life rather than the ending of life. Because I hold life so dearly (heh), I'd argue that being denied life is worse than being granted a poor life.

 

[Apos]

Finally, we are no longer in the same company as some of the most disgusting regimes on the planet.

 

[Razor]

I don't care about the US Constitution but the UN says any country who executes anyone under the age of 18 is breaking human right laws. From what i heard, off the news not some cynical hippy, is that America executes more children then every other country in the world, combined.

Anyone know the accuracy of that?

 

[Blakeb155]

Who are we to decide when someone should live and when they should die? It should be left up to god. Leave them in prison for everyone elses safety, but its not up to us to decide whether its there time to go.

 

[Sieg]

In a controversial 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court ruled that executing people who commited crimes as a Juvenile is unconstitutional. The white house is not happy about this (Our Prez was governer presiding over FOUR executions of Juvenile killers) how do you feel?

I'm in a hurry so I'm not going to read the whole thread.
I feel thanks we should excute them right away,keeping them in jail is just wasteing money,there is no point,they killed someone and what do they get in return?Free food,shelter???
Best way is to pullout a SMG and pump their ass full of lead.

 

[Bodacious]

I don't care about the US Constitution but the UN says any country who executes anyone under the age of 18 is breaking human right laws. From what i heard, off the news not some cynical hippy, is that America executes more children then every other country in the world, combined.

Anyone know the accuracy of that?

Of course we execute more children than anywhere else. We put hundreds of children to death every day. How many abortions were there last year?

 

[kmack]

Of course we execute more children than anywhere else. We put hundreds of children to death every day. How many abortions were there last year?

Those are not children, they are not alive, the law says so. Please, keep this debate about fact (the constitution) not fiction (your abortion opinion). 119 countries allow abortion. The United States is one of only six nations that has executed children, having done so eight times since 1990. The other five nations, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, have killed a total of nine, giving the United States the dubious distinction of being the world leader in this category.

 

[kmack]

Just to add to my original post. The Supreme Court based it's decision on the Eighth Ammendment (No Cruel and Unusual punishment).

Frankly, when the only other countries who put juveniles to death are Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, China and Saudi Arabia (It should be noted that since 1990 we have executed more juveniles than all 5 of those countries combined), I'm glad to be getting away from this.

I should also note that it has been about THREE YEARS since justices blocked executions of the mentally retarded.

While I am a proponent of the death penalty, there should be regulations on it. Four years ago, a mentally retarted 13 year old girl could be sentenced to death. This is not something America should be doing, as we crusade for freedom and liberty. Keep the death penalty, but keep it constitutional.

 

[el Chi]

Of course we execute more children than anywhere else. We put hundreds of children to death every day. How many abortions were there last year?

Woowoo! Here comes the "That's Another Discussion Entirely" train! First stop is you.
Don't bring abortion into discussion where it's so blatantly off-topic. :hmph:

 

[kmack]

Woowoo! Here comes the "That's Another Discussion Entirely" train! First stop is you.
Don't bring abortion into discussion where it's so blatantly off-topic. :hmph:

LOL, welcome to the politics forum, topic doesn't follow your views, change it!

 

[Doobz]

You are not allowed to be executed in the U.S. if you are a minor. You may be handed the death sentence, but the actual execution may not take place until you are an adult. The decision was on whether we could sentence minors to death whereby they would be executed as adults.

The United States does not execute children. I seem to be sensing a general misconception about that fact.

 

[kmack]

You are not allowed to be executed in the U.S. if you are a minor. You may be handed the death sentence, but the actual execution may not take place until you are an adult. The decision was on whether we could sentence minors to death whereby they would be executed as adults.

The United States does not execute children. I seem to be sensing a general misconception about that fact.

ya, but again, we are among those 5 nations that sentence juveniles to death, its the same as the other countries, they are obviously not killed as children. The appeals process and pre-execution jail time makes that LITERALLY impossible, i see no need to clear that up as it is pretty obvious.

 

[Calanen]

Hmm not quite right. China has no problem with shooting children. I imagine similar standards apply in the anything goes states like North Korea 'the workers paradise'.

I am kind of conflicted about this one. Interestingly, during the bar exam, one of the questions in the Multistate was
Which of these is the most likely to mean that an offender will avoid the death penalty, one of which, 'the offender was a juvenile.' Thats the one I chose, hope it was right..heh

But, if u r a 16 yr old, and u lean out of ur 98 Olds and spray an uzi at a shopping mall of people, 1 or some of whom are potential gang targets, the rest of whom are innocent bystandards (doesn't seem to matter quite often) , and kill some of them - is this not worthy of the death penalty? A lot of me says, yeah it is. But we dont have death penalty at all in Australia except in theory, so not really my issue.

 

[Bodacious]

Woowoo! Here comes the "That's Another Discussion Entirely" train! First stop is you.
Don't bring abortion into discussion where it's so blatantly off-topic. :hmph:

But I thought the topic was children being put to death, no? Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? (Rape victims aren't responsible sluts, don't make that link).

 

[Da Funkey Gibbon]

I agree with you bod but do stay on topic, I applaud this decsision, hopefully it'll get abolished compleatly in a few years.

 

[CptStern]

But I thought the topic was children being put to death, no? Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? (Rape victims aren't responsible sluts, don't make that link).

you've never made a mistake have you? How many times have you carried protection on you when engaging in sex? 100% of the time?

accidents never happen, condoms never break, married couples never have unplanned pregnancies right? it's only sluts and whores who have abortions :upstare:


no one thinks anymore it's just effing gut reactions in this forum

 

[kmack]

But I thought the topic was children being put to death, no? Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? (Rape victims aren't responsible sluts, don't make that link).

Abortion is legal under the U.S. constitution. The situation you are speaking of is actually not an abortion but murder, an "irresponsible slut" who kills their living, breathing baby in this manner is subject to judgement by a jury of their peers and can be punished to the utmost extent of the law. I don't like to talk about abortion because
A. It is legal under the U.S. constitution.
B. I am not a woman, so comprehending the decision to end a living being inside my body is quite impossible as I am biologically different.
C. I don't think we have the right to decide who can have an abortion, if a 25 year old is raped, can she have an abortion? can a 17 year old who had consual sex? It is do difficult to draw a line.
D. I believe that a fetus that can be legally aborted is not living.
E. It is legal under the U.S. constitution. (just like to drive that home)

 

[Bodacious]

you've never made a mistake have you? How many times have you carried protection on you when engaging in sex? 100% of the time?

Protection isn't an issue for me. I am married.

accidents never happen, condoms never break, married couples never have unplanned pregnancies right? it's only sluts and whores who have abortions :upstare:

Is it not? Show me a married couple who has had an abortion. A vast majority of abortions are because of irresponsiblity, plain and simple.

 

[Bodacious]

Abortion is legal under the U.S. constitution. The situation you are speaking of is actually not an abortion but murder, an "irresponsible slut" who kills their living, breathing baby in this manner is subject to judgement by a jury of their peers and can be punished to the utmost extent of the law. I don't like to talk about abortion because
A. It is legal under the U.S. constitution.
B. I am not a woman, so comprehending the decision to end a living being inside my body is quite impossible as I am biologically different.
C. I don't think we have the right to decide who can have an abortion, if a 25 year old is raped, can she have an abortion? can a 17 year old who had consual sex? It is do difficult to draw a line.
D. I believe that a fetus that can be legally aborted is not living.
E. It is legal under the U.S. constitution. (just like to drive that home)

Hooray for you, but why can't I voice my opinion?

 

[kmack]

Hooray for you, but why can't I voice my opinion?

because it is off topic. The fact that the U.S. is stopping the death penalty for people sentenced to death for crimes commited as a juvenile is what I'd like to discuss, abortion is way to big of a beast to unleash in the middle of a loosley correlated thread topic.

I have mixed emotions on abortion, maybe make a new abortion thread, see what we think!

 

[Bodacious]

because it is off topic. The fact that the U.S. is stopping the death penalty for people sentenced to death for crimes commited as a juvenile is what I'd like to discuss, abortion is way to big of a beast to unleash in the middle of a loosley correlated thread topic.

I have mixed emotions on abortion, maybe make a new abortion thread, see what we think!

Look at what I quoted in my first reply. The poster made the assertion that America executes more children then every other country in the world, combined. All I did was confirm that assertion by throwing in my opinion.

So what if it is off topic? Report me. As far as I am concerned abortion is putting a child to death, and innocent one at that. Based on the title of the thread I would say that it is on topic, but only because of my perception. Sure my comment is out of context, but it hammers home that the US puts more children to death than any other country.

 

[CptStern]

Protection isn't an issue for me. I am married.

so you'll not use protection at all? never? what if you dont want any more children? will you get a vesectomy?

Is it not? Show me a married couple who has had an abortion. A vast majority of abortions are because of irresponsiblity, plain and simple.

"Of the three million pregnancies to married women each year (in the US), three in 10 are unintended......and four in 10 unintended pregnancies to married women each year end in abortion: 37% of married women


37% is much higher than the 0% you claim


on average it's 17% (married and unmarried)


"....resulting in 345,000 abortions to married women each year. All in all, 17% of abortions in the United States occur to married women."


source

 

[The Monkey]

Why should you lock people in that is not responceble for his/her actions? They need help, not punishment. As harch as it might sound to the victims, it was not he/she who did the crime, it was the disease.

About the teenagers...do you know that there's only two countries in the world that hasn't signed UN's declaration of children's rights. Somalia and the US.

 

[burner69]

so you'll not use protection at all? never? what if you dont want any more children? will you get a vesectomy?

"Of the three million pregnancies to married women each year (in the US), three in 10 are unintended......and four in 10 unintended pregnancies to married women each year end in abortion: 37% of married women

37% is much higher than the 0% you claim

on average it's 17% (married and unmarried)

"....resulting in 345,000 abortions to married women each year. All in all, 17% of abortions in the United States occur to married women."

source

I like that air of 'owned' Stern always brings about the place.
Bod, I can't believe you called everyone who's ever had an abortion (except rape victims, of course, wouldn't wanna think you immoral) is a slut. You're an idiot, and blatently say a lot of things to start flamefests. It's not the topic, its the way you go about the discussion.

 

[CptStern]

I like that air of 'owned' Stern always brings about the place.
Bod, I can't believe you called everyone who's ever had an abortion (except rape victims, of course, wouldn't wanna think you immoral) is a slut. You're an idiot, and blatently say a lot of things to start flamefests. It's not the topic, its the way you go about the discussion.

I try my best :E ...although sometimes it's just sooo easy that I almost feel guilty ...........almost :E